/lit/ - Literature

>>18191155
Doesnt change the fact that Symposium exists

>>18191159
Let me quote from the book
>Socrates in Xenophon's Symposium, sanctioning the suppos-
edly chaste attraction of Callias for the beautiful athlete Autolycus, calls physical
gratification in such a honioerotic relationship "the most thoroughly shameful
things" (eponeidistotatii), the prefix ep- and the superlative redoubling the already
negative force of the word, A little later, alluding to the older male's pedagogical
rationale for chasing the boy, he says the lover cannot improve the boy-love if he
exhibits "shamelessness and incontinence" (aitaischuntiati kai akrasiatf), specifically
defining the former in terras of physical gratification. And in reference to the
idea, voiced by Pausanias in Plato's Symposium, that an army of lovers would be
the bravest, since they would be prohibited by shame from deserting each other,
Socrates snorts that men "wallowing in incontinence" would be habituated to
shameful behavior and so would not be "ashamed to do anything shameful" (ais-
chunountai aischnm ft poiein). In fact, he goes on, that's why the Thebans and Eleans,
notoriously laissez-faire regarding homosexuality, pair their lovers—to keep an eye
on them and make sure they don't run off. The Spartans, the world's greatest in-
fantrymen, fight just as bravely alongside foreigners, for they are impelled by duty,
not the shameful bond of physical pleasure, Plato in the Laws agrees with
Xenophon's Socrates, denying that homosexuality promotes bravery and asserting
that the man who yields to irrational pleasure will yield as well to fear—especially,
but not exclusively, the one who plays the woman's part.

>'le greeks were gay XD'
It's not even worth engaging with these types because they're obviously arguing from a position of bad faith. Nobody is interested in proving that Greeks liked to rape underage boys for purely intellectual reasons

>the Greeks were gay
If ALL the Greeks were gay then there wouldn't be any Greeks left after one generation because they wouldn't have any kids. The question I think is: HOW gay were the Greeks? The Romans as well might be considered. Both were gay to a notable extent, I think this much is clear. Were they more or less gay than we are? What was the stigma around being gay? There are many factors for example which Greek city-state is under consideration (as is evidenced >>18191182 here).
Due to what >>18191228 mentions and (similar phenomena from the "they weren't gay" perspective) we may struggle to reach a consensus.

>>18191155
They had about as many homosexuals as any other place or time in the world. Donno why you’d need another pill for that.

>>18192218
Kys tranny, the real butters is leading the next revolution instead of posting on 4channel

>>18192218
DING DING retard alarm DING DING immense retardation detected DING DING

>>18192218
On what grounds do you make this claim?

>>18191155
>greeks were gay
Longest running meme in history. Yeah, I'm supposed to believe that a people whose religious stories involved hulking male gods raping helpless female mortals and even attempting to rape female gods frequently were a bunch of sissy fudge packers.

>>18192443
There were myths about gods having boytoy lovers too you know.

>>18191182
I fear you btfo him

>>18192504
Not nearly as common as all the male-on-female rape and procreation that was happening in them, which makes the homosexual bits the exception rather than the norm.

>Muh Greeks are gay

Athens did have a disproportionate amount of faggotry, but to translate that to pervasive gayness on the part of all ancient Greece is like looking at the enthusiasm for AIDS spreading in California and say that was the raison d'etre for the entire country.

>>18192253
> the real butters is leading the next revolution
^___^

>>18192504
Aside from being few in number, and gods being on another layer of morality altogether, many of them are fanfictions by degenerates like Plutarch.

>>18192664
Athens was harsh on faggots. We simply have more material about Athens in general. Thebes always was the boylove capital and was recognized as such by every ancient writer.

Gentlemen, please. We all know the greeks weren't actually gay, they were simply just pedophiles. That's why Southern and Western Europe is still full of subhuman degenerates to this very day.

>>18192262
You're born gay. About 1/10 of the population at any given time in history is gay (it's basic biology to be honest).

>BTFOs the revisionists

>>18193358
basic biology already killed this idea. It's basic anthropology and maybe even psychology but it's definitely not biology.

>>18192719
>Athens was harsh on faggots.
source

>>18193358
That's a really simplified way of explaining things. Some children are born with a gene that makes them attractive to men. It is only after the molestation that the sexy-kid gene turns to into the gay gene.

>>18193372
Based radioactive cock theory

>>18192174
>>18192218
>>18192664
The word 'gay' is liable to cause misunderstandings. Modern people think of sexual desires as attached to fixed identities, and tend to think of opposite-sex and same-sex desires and behaviours as somehow mutually exclusive. And so when they read about the sexual practices of ancient societies, they think "why were there so many gay men running about?" Because in our society homosexual behaviours are more or less restricted to a small minority of identifiably "gay" men who spurn sex with women. The first poster I quoted demonstrates this confusion when he asks how Athens could reproduce itself if everyone was gay. But this is not how people behaved sexually in the ancient world. In Athens, and, it seems, in several other Greek cities (though we have much less primary evidence to go off), male citizens would conventionally only get married at 30 years of age (to girls who were about 14 lol). Before that marrying age, it was conventional for them to have relationships with other males: these relationships were mainly between teenagers and young men in their 20s (though not exclusively it seems: since Socrates, who is quite old and also married, openly pursues Alcibiades, and there are several age-equal pairings described in the literature). The idea of homosexuality as tied to specific life-stages is not exclusive to ancient Greece, I think Freud talks about it. One theory about homosexuals in the early psychiatric literature was that they were stuck in a state of stunted psychological growth: they hadn't moved past the adolescent stage of natural homoeroticism; had failed to grow into adult opposite-sex attraction. Whether or not that's true is beside the point, it's demonstrative of the existence of the idea that homosexuality is normatively attached to specific life stages. I believe there are similar ideas in Japan.

That's not to say ancient people were unaware that people had sexual preferences. Aristophanes in the Symposium describes people who are only motivated to marry women out of convention, but would prefer, if they could, to stay with male partners. And people like Ovid can say that they *prefer* women over boys, or Plutarch the opposite. But this preference doesn't exclude the possibility of having sex with the less desired object, as with modern sexual identities. It's anachronistic to point to such and such an ancient figure having sex with females to prove that they "weren't gay", or vice versa. They simply wouldn't recognise this terminology and what it represents. We tend to think that a person can only throw themselves wholeheartedly into relationships with one sex. If a man who's had sex with ten women has sex with a man, we assume that the "gayness" overrides his heterosexuality somehow, that it's more dominant, that the heterosexual behaviour is a sham. But for ancient people, the force and authenticity of Zeus' heterosexual lusts are not delegitimised by his homosexual lusts, and vice versa.

>>18191155
The Greeks were bisexual. The most based sexuality.

>>18193358
1/10 is complete bullshit and you pulled that statistic out your arse. The actual figure is around 2%, and that’s just for our modern society, we have no grounds for extrapolating to times in history with which we have no data except by pure speculation.

>>18193437
Great post anon. The question then arises, why was homosexual sex more normalised back then compared to now? Why did a lot more Greek men in Athens not find the idea of sticking their dick in an asshole repulsive, as in most other societies the vast majority of men do?

>>18193489
I have never met an openly gay person in my entire life.
Which continent is pushing it to 2%?

>>18191155
No, dude, you just don't get it, 5th century BCE Greece was totally like contemporary California in its sexual morals!

>>18191155
Imagine reading a book just to prove that people didn't do things with their penis that make you uncomfortable. Sounds pretty gay to me

>>18193500
Athens is not an isolated case. We see the same kind of age-structured homosexuality throughout history, though in different forms (Imperial China, Feudal Japan, Islamic Golden Age, Renaissance Florence, etc.). Athens is unique mainly because they were a literate culture that left behind a lot of evidence of how they thought and behaved, and because of how institutionalised it was in their society, connected as it was with their ideals of civic duty, heroism and virtue (rather than vice or luxury). But the amount of pederastic poetry composed in the medieval Islamic world, for instance, probably surpasses that of the Greeks, and it was certainly written over a longer period of time, a little over a thousand years. It's contentious to describe Sufi poetry like that written by Rumi or Hafiz, which use human loves as metaphors for divinity, as pederastic, but they can be discounted without altering the general narrative: there are bawdy and libertine poets that are just as esteemed, like Abu Nuwas and Al-Jahiz, dotted all throughout the Muslim canon. Important writers like Attar of Nishapur and Nizumi Aruzi devoted long sections of their works to the romance between Mahmud and his catamite Ayaz, and the taste of Muslim men for sodomy was the butt of jokes even for Muslim satirists like Ubayd Zakani. And there are lots of primitive tribes with complicated pederastic rituals and conventions.

Regarding anal sex, the Greeks tended to dislike it. It was considered degrading, and not a fit sexual act to perform upon future citizens. Intercrural (thigh) sex was preferred, and this is what we see more often depicted on their pottery. But opinions are never unanimous. The later Greek poet Strato talk about how only humans, the rational thinking animal, have discovered butt-fucking, and that "those who conquer women have nothing over dumb animals" (which I think is biologically false kek). Even today, some studies find that anal sex is actually relatively low on the list of sexual activities that gay men engage in.

But yeah, it's a good question. How and why do societies develop the sexual habits and mores that they do? Ancient Greece and the medieval Middle East were extremely male-dominated, masculine societies. There's probably a similar thing going on in those societies that happens with the homosexuality of boarding schools, boot camps, prisons, etc. When there's a sharp divide between the roles of the sexes, and you spend most of your time with other males, and find it hard to relate to women who don't share in public life and intellectual activities in the same way, there's more incentive for intimacy with other males. Plus, we tend to be attracted to what we're most often exposed to: apes raised in captivity want to fuck humans. And these are also societies that placed a huge value on the strength and vitality (and virtue) of the male body.

>>18193362
retards will ignore this and act like ancient greece was like their wholesome chonkers christian cozy neighborhood

>>18193437
>>18193608
based articulate anon, thanks for this.

>>18193636
No worries, thanks anon

>>18193500
Presumably due to external cultural factors. If the average male couldn't marry before 30, and the average woman/girl was already considered a second-class citizen, then the options for young men are limited to prostitutes or other young men.

>>18193608
>>18193437
interesting posts, ty

>>18193437
Is there any books on this topic?

>>18194029
Greek Homosexuality - Kenneth Dover

>>18191155
Le gay spook was created by christcucks because pederasty was rampant in the church
Greeks were manly men who liked younger manly men

>>18193362
The first 8 are Greeks, the rest are opinions on the subject. Also, Aristotle's answer is not definitive. I'll post, when I can, Plato's Laws

>>18194234
What's the point of your post anon? And what do you think the point of the image is?

>>18193608
Wow, this is all pretty degenerate. Thanks God we had Christ's revelation to clean the mess.

>>18194234
>I'll post, when I can, Plato's Laws
Laws and Republic was rabidly anti-athenian you mongoloid, all it proves is that Plato was seething against what was predominant during his times.

>>18194166
More or less this. Put plainly, Christians don't understand the psychology of the Greeks from the Dionysian era.

>>18194248
The point of the image is just quoting people having opinions anon estimate to not be "revisionist" in order to btfo said "revisionists". It's self fulfilling, no matter the state of the underlying question.

>>18194429
>was rabidly anti-athenian
cool, Plato is still a greek philosopher
>mongoloid
I'm not asian, you negroid
>all it proves is that Plato was seething against what was predominant during his times.
The thread's' about greek philosophers and their thoughts on homosexuality.
In this post >>18193362 I'll go one by one (the first 8, since the rest are after what we call the hellenic period)
1. Thucydides merely states it, doesn't praise homos
2. Symposium is several speechs; for example in 181e, it says:
>As a matter of fact, there should be a law forbidding affairs with young with youngs boys. If nothing else, all this time and effort would not be wasted on such an uncertain pursuit - and what is more uncertain than whether a particular boy will eventually make something of himself, physically or mentally? Good men, of course, are willing to make law like this for themselves, but those other lovers, the vulgar ones, need external restraint.
3. Is anti-homo; it forces them to marry the opposite sex.
4. Is a statement, but it looks like it is pro-homo. I'll give you this one.
5. Is ambigous; I haven't seen Aristotle give an answer to it
6. Philo is an Hellenic "Jew" (he combined both ways of weltanschauung). Thus he is against it.
7. This fits in
8. It's never confirmed if Achilles "loved" Patroclus. The second part, however, fits in.
So you've got 3/8 who are pro-homo.
The rest (besides Frederick, the Faggot, who can't be considered a philosopher) is pretty much anti-homo.

>>18195456
read op's post you blind mongoloid. Its about whether greeks as a society included people who did gay shit. Its not about philosophers and other figures who had their own position on it. Greeks WERE gay and hebephillic. Not EVERYONE was, but boy love was institutionalized and subordinated to the demands of elite class reproduction. Get the fuck back to pol with infographs. Only a dumb mongoloid would be this stupid.

>>18195456
Why is /pol/ convinced the Greeks were Christian conservatives

>>18195522
because that would break their myth that homosexuality is a jew made strategy to undermine le ebin Western civillization. Imagine how much of a dissonance would be to accept the fact that the founding society of the West was what we would consider today pedophilic and gay.

>>18195456
The point of the image is to establish, contra pictures like yours (why are you even posting it when its claims have already been refuted?), that homosexual relations existed, and were commonly practiced among the Greeks. The point is not to show that all the speakers had positive opinions of homosexuality: Plato, at least in his later years, certainly did not.
>The thread's' about greek philosophers and their thoughts on homosexuality.
But the way you cite Plato's Laws implies that his opinion reflects common law and practice, when he is in fact criticising it.
>1. Thucydides merely states it, doesn't praise homos
Yes, the point is to demonstrate its existence. However, it should be noted that statues were erected to Harmodius and Aristogeiton in Greece as famous tyrant killers, and they are praised by some speakers in the Symposium.
>2. Symposium is several speechs; for example in 181e, it says [quote]
Yes, I'm not including the Symposium as a "pro-gay" document or anything. It reflects a variety of opinions. But you are quoting selectively here. The rest of Pausanias speech is more or less approving of pederasty (he was in such a relationship himself! with Agathon). And the fact that he has to suggest that there *should* be a law implies there isn't. Also, in other translations he seems to say "mere boys" or (per Jowett) "young boys", probably meaning prepubescents or early pubescents. This is how the Cambridge version has it:
"There ought really to be a law against starting a love affair with mere boys, to prevent a great deal of effort being spent on something of uncertain outcome, because with young boys it is uncertain how well or badly in body or soul they will turn out"
So he is not against homosexual relations, but against starting them too early.
>3. Is anti-homo; it forces them to marry the opposite sex.
Aristophanes is describing a social custom that is not salutary to people who exclusively prefer males, true, but his own words seem to portray those types positively. And I already mentioned that in Greece pederasty was an intermediary rite of passage.
The rest of your points are misunderstanding the point of the image. They are not meant to all be "positive" quotes about gays. That's actually why I include people like Philo, precisely because they are against pederasty, but nevertheless describe its presence in the writings of people like Plato, whom they are devotees of.
>The rest (besides Frederick, the Faggot, who can't be considered a philosopher) is pretty much anti-homo.
Well, excluding Hilarius' poem, de Viau's poem, Marlowe's poem, Voltaire's poem, and the quotes of Benedetto Cellini, Symonds and Nietzsche. John Potter is more or less non-judgemental.

>>18195503
>Its not about philosophers and other figures who had their own position on it.
Philosophers are a part of society
>Get the fuck back to pol with infographs.
>>18195522
>>18195559
I have never seen any other board who spergs so much about pol. Where did pol touch you?
>Imagine how much of a dissonance would be to accept the fact that the founding society of the West was what we would consider today pedophilic and gay.
This is not an argument against 181e

>>18195627
see >>18195616

>>18195616
>>18195635
I see, I seem to have misunderstand your overall point. I apologize for it.
But I don't agree with your
>Voltaire's poem
I can't see anything homo related in it.

>>18195767
No worries. Voltaire's poem is satirically describing how the god of "anti-natural love" (a euphemism for homosexuality) gave lessons to Greece, Rome, and Florence (notoriously sodomitical). I wouldn't exactly categorise it as positive in sentiment toward homosexuality, but he does describe it as occurring among "people who were civilized and cultivated in the arts".

>>18193608
>Regarding anal sex, the Greeks tended to dislike it. It was considered degrading, and not a fit sexual act to perform upon future citizens. Intercrural (thigh) sex was preferred, and this is what we see more often depicted on their pottery.
This is just what they said, or felt comfortable leaving in writing. Consider that nowadays an institution like the Catholic church might say that being gay is sinful, but we all know what priests are doing to little boys. Or Muslims who still drink alcohol even though it's forbidden. Now imagine a society that says that being gay is fine, as long as you don't buttfuck. So you can be openly gay, you just have to hide the shameful butt stuff. There would be a lot of buttfucking.

>>18193613
Okk fuck Ur brothers poohole

>>18196311
Not him, but you need to learn to not type like a schizo if you want people to consider taking you seriously.

>>18197086
Do you think I seriously want him to validate a reductio? How about you fuck your brother's butthole!

>>18191155
make sure you post this when that admitted pedo makes his next post on the trauma myth. he always hinges on the greeks to justify his lust for boys

Plato clearly describes pederasty in Republic

>>18195456
this is why internet discussion is sub-par; in real life, people stop retards from finishing their idiotic claims

>>18193437
>and tend to think of opposite-sex and same-sex desires and behaviours as somehow mutually exclusive
identity and behavior have correlation who would've thought

>>18197246
>this is why internet discussion is sub-par; in real life, people stop retards from finishing their idiotic claims

>>18192218
Based

The Greeks weren't gay. You never see people calling pedo priests/teachers gay, do you? It is only gay when the kid has fully matured into an adult. The Greeks were pedos, and there is nothing wrong with it.

>>18197449
based

>>18193477
Bicycles were only invented in the 19th century, you stupid faggot.

>>18191155
No

>>18197132
How about your sister’s butthole instead?

>>18197534
Kek. I hope this wasn’t a typo

>>18191155
Can't you fags just accept that the Greeks never condemned homosexuality like The Eternal Jew did?

So how do progressives and leftists get around the fact that when they claim “LGBT” was always a part of history (completely anachronistic claim) the vast majority of homosexuality in the past was pedophilic pederasty

>>18199686
Heterosexual relationships seemed to be age-unequal a lot of the time too it seems

>>18199554
The Jew was right

>>18193358
>1/10
Who molested you?

>>18195522
Is this /pol/ in the room with us now?

>>18193437
so they were prison gay. got it

>>18192512
his passage literally exposes that such relationships existed and many

>>18193437
so its true, everyone is bisexual

Loving young boys/girls is based

>>18193636
he doesnt say anything shocking or important hes rambling

>>18191182
Xenophon describes a gay Greek general in the Anabasis. When the Persians invite the Greek generals to a truce dinner and betray them, forcing Xenophon to take charge of the ten thousand amongst others, he gives a paragraph long eulogy of each of the slain generals where one of them is entirely how the general liked buggering boys and now that's how he is remembered for all posterity.

>>18200602
bold of you to assume that i didnt enjoy the rambling