/lit/ - Literature

>>18186269
I haven't used it for writing fiction but for the sake of bumping a Zettlekasten thread:
>Should/can I have a single database for ALL areas of my interest
I think some separation means less noise to deal with when you're trying to focus on a particular area but it's useful to use software which lets you connect elements of different databases if the need occurs (fictional location based on academic research, or something like that). Something to take from David Allen and GTD is that you don't want to have a significant time/effort cost for switching between files to capture information as it occurs to you because that will feel cumbersome and make you not want to use it.
>Related to the previous question, would having all my projects inside the same database be a pro or a con?
You'll probably find there's a level of chunking information which is optimal for you. What really matters imo is having a good system (tree-based?) for drilling down to find what you need. It doesn't really matter if it's *technically* in the same database so long as you can get at it. You just don't want to end up having to scroll through your phone book to get to your academic writing or vice versa. Whatever you do, the most important thing is probably to have a *consistent* structure because that's going to make it easier to reformat things later.
>I don't know if that'd be cataloguing hell
Use software that helps with that so that links change globally when you rename something, etc.
Again, it's better to have a system that makes it easy to capture in the right place (or at least to easily refile your captures) than to manually catalogue everything later.
Personally, I like to have things not in one single place but in a manageable number of files and organised in quite a linear way because otherwise you reproduce the same problem as trying to retain all the information consciously. Humans are good at fuzzy associative thinking by default so I find a lot of these decentralised, free-flowing "mirror the structure of your brain" type systems a bit of a gimmick. It's no benefit to go from trying to remember the information to trying to remember where you saved the information in your 2000 page wiki.
>People talk about "reference collections", which are separate from the main Zettelkasten.
I assume people mean either direct external references in themselves (PDFs, images) which you generally don't want to clutter up a text database with, or files for managing those (BibTeX etc). Being able to reference a source like this can be useful even if you're just taking notes because it simplifies referring to a quote it from multiple places (e.g. maybe you like to have chronological notes on each book your read but also a thesis you're gradually building by subject). In that kind of situation, you ideally don't want to have to parallel copies of the same thing, but one centralized version appearing in two places.

I was interested in this system but never found a proper method to organize the notes I already have... Any software suggestion ?

>>18186457
Woah, this is great content, anon, thank you very much for putting in the time to reply.
I still don't get the reference notes (going by the Zettelkasten method which was explained as having both "reference notes" and "permanent notes").
The reference notes contain the idea of the book (preferably written in your own words) and the bibliographic details.
You can then turn that reference note's idea into a permanent note by elaborating on it.
But it is unclear if they are linked together, stored together or what. Sort of easier to deal with digitally, but asking just in case.

I understand the problems you mention about the overall structure getting too complicated, I think having a single database COULD work as long as I can have folders and am able to limit search/nodes to a branch in cases where I need to focus more. I think that's what a MOC (Map of Content) relates to, I'm still going through some videos to understand.
I've been building my /b/ folder for 15 years, which has long evolved past just a "funny memes dumpster", so I think I have an idea of how to categorize things to avoid too much headache.

>>18186565
I'm using Obsidian. I have used Tiddlywiki in the past but the zoomzoom browser extension interface was hard to stomach. If you can code, Obsidian can be even more flexible.

>But it is unclear if they are linked together, stored together or what.
Looking at this, it seems like they're intended to be separate? The literature notes would a linear list from a single book while the permanent notes are more relational by subject? ["Literature notes only have one connection, to the book they came from. While permanent notes can have many connections"]
https://medium.com/@rebeccawilliams9941/the-zettelkasten-method-examples-to-help-you-get-started-8f8a44fa9ae6

I'd misunderstood this before because rewriting is an aspect of the Zettlekasten system that never really worked for me. It's a similar gripe to the one about 'mapping your brain' - if I have to rewrite something to retain it, what's the point of an external system?
If I'm researching something complex I don't want to keep drawing premature conclusions, nevermind have them be the only thing saved to review in the future. I can see how that made sense when it was originally devised as a physical card-index system. Space was limited and you were going to be writing something out longhand either way. In the current year, it's going to be massively faster to just drop your sources in directly (and maybe highlight the most relevant parts).
It's not uncommon to you review something later and see things in it you would have missed if you'd only copied out your understanding of it at a particular moment.
I think people are using a lot more sources in parallel these days too, so it's better to just go straight to the relevant context for an idea. Looking at a quote to figure out exactly where it belongs in the overall scheme of your research engages a similar creative process to rewriting without losing the original and the headings these things end up being grouped under being to accrue as conclusions in themselves. It's very rare that I really need "ideas from book X" vs "ideas about concept X from 10 different books". This is where a reference manager comes in to do that in a standardized way where you can aggregate everything from a particular book if you need to though.
>I think having a single database COULD work as long as I can have folders
In the end, it's going to have a very similar hierarchy whether the top node is "list of databases I have" or "list of subsections in single big database". You develop a feel for when something is becoming unwieldy and needs to be split off into a new branch. Having something akin to a folder/tree structure just makes that a lot easier to do vs the 'miasmic cloud of data' approach. One thing to consider is using a database structure which would allow for aggregating things like to-do lists and calendars from multiple sets of notes if that's something you think might be useful.

>>18187315
Once more very useful reply, anon. Having a chronological compilation of what I've read and a mix of quotes and reflections about it sounds like the best of both worlds, as I like to synthesize my thoughts.

Should I switch to obsidian? I’m using roam right now and I don’t know when they are going to start asking me to pay. I think I’m a legacy user or something right now. I’ve also heard obsidian is easier and more effective for writing and linking. Also posting my comment from the self help thread because it goes here:

I would also like to point out that the key point in smart notes is not the slip system. It’s getting people to write as thinking. Linking your thoughts together is subsequent. There have been times where I’m a note taking machine but those notes go into the void and are never seen again. Files everywhere. Notebooks half filled. Legal pads askew. If I had a place to dump and organize those notes years ago I would have been better off. The linking system is the way you make sense of notes that are finally all in one place. I don’t think you have to be perfect. I watched an interview with the author and he said he complained about the fact that everyone would apologize about how they didn’t use the system perfectly and he was all “lol dude just write and try your best”

>>18188676
Here's my Roam Cose chart. I have about 3-4 pages that are kinda like link hubs (books I've read, shitposts, work related, etc.) and from there I try to link notes together.

>>18188758
I'm just going to keep bumping and rambling.

One of the things I've been using it for is saving my shitposts from /lit/. There are times I'll post a maximum character length rant or explanation about something and it's more writing than I've ever done. I tag it with shitpost or the book I think it would make good dialogue in.

I also have a problem with quoted text. My field of work requires precision in quoting and use of language, and so it is, often times, difficult to 'reformulate in my own words' the rule or statute. I suppose I could. But do any anons have a suggestion on how to format an entry based on a given text? Lets say I'm looking at a secondary source that is looking at a clip of a primary text

>author/source
>primary quote
>personal analysis of secondary source
>how the primary and secondary source material integrates with everything else

I feel like that's it, but I also feel like I'm missing something. How much do I break down a given text? I know that the 'one thought per card' thing just isn't going to work for me. Smaller than a whole subject outline but bigger than one line. So per topic issue within a given field, link it to that field too as a hub but then connect those individual parts cross fields?

Again, should I switch to obsidian from roam?

I see, so no one on /lit/ reads nor do they take notes. Fascinating.

>>18188982
>no meaningful contribution

i made one once with neo4j, a free graph database
pros:
-really flexible, anything can be a node, anything can be a connection, you can create whatever tags you want, etc.
-using the built-in algorithms is a game-changer for discovering connections
cons:
-there’s a learning curve and inputting new nodes is tedious
-it gets pretty unwieldy once you reach a certain number of nodes

>>18188676
>>18188758
Cool stuff, anon. I like the "just do it, even if you're not 100% efficient, you're better off than doing nothing" mentality.

As someone who has always been good at expressing my own thoughts through writing (probably from too much forumposting and imageboardposting), I've never found much problem with my thinking not being clear enough, it's generally very well-structured.
But the "compound interest" perspective of having your thoughts linked and almost wikified sounds very interesting, and I think they're worth a shot for sure.

I've been making random diagrams/infographics of thoughts for years, and just now I realized it was basically my brain trying to find an outlet for these ideas that could be more accurately represented by a crosslinked databse.

>>18188758
Here it is after I just imported it to obsidian.

>>18189263
Looks prettier, therefore clearly superior!

On your thoughts here >>18188844
I don't see why putting more than one subject on a single note would be bad, as long as you keep them all related. Make different paragraphs if you want, and have each paragraph linking to a more elaborate version of it.

Another way would be to clickbait your brain. So you can keep one idea per note, but have a "hub note" that has very summarized and heavy hyperlinked text, so that you'll need to click around to break the thought process down.

Some technical things that are holding me back from even starting are:
- I have to devise a template for my notes with some room for tags and maybe other important fields;
- Like a previous anon mentioned, finding an easy way to have "global names" for notes, so that when I edit them I don't have to go looking for broken links and fixing everything;
- I speak 3 languages. I've more or less come to terms with the fact that I will have to stick to English in order to keep it less chaotic, but I might open some exceptions here and there.

Another random chart made back in 2012.

>>18189316
Funny enough, I made that tan theme for roam. I forgot what colors it was before. The obsidian dark mode is just fantastic. been really digging darkmode on everything recently so it's a nice transition. Now I'm playing around with Obsidian's settings and import features. Pretty neat stuff but will take some getting used to compared to Roam.

>>18188844
About notes not being atomic, but rather addressing many subjects, this guy's workflow mentions something interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgwnpEBFNUg

He's a fiction writer, so he has to rewrite a lot of content, which becomes very cumbersome if you have the information on several places, so he uses embedding as a solution.
You could make "one idea per note" but embed all these ideas into a single note to connect them without having to rewrite them.

>>18189628
Watched the first few minutes. I’ve been having the exact issue he is talking about with my writing. Thank you for this anon. I really appreciate it. Can’t wait to watch the rest of it.

>>18186269
>decentralized
>literally had a center

One final bump before I go to bed, with another thought graph.

Any pictures of your card formats, collections or even notes is welcomed.

>>18190189
Here's a screenshot of my Roam notes imported into Obsidian.

>>18190239
I'm really digging Obsidian's options for the graphs and nodes. It seems much more useful than Roam's. It's way faster too, with far more control.

>>18190710
>legal reform has a tie to shitposting
Based.

>>18191128
At this point I'm going to have enough material to write a legal manifesto. I think I'll call it
>Jurisprudential Shitposting: 'I know it when I see it'

bump

>>18191998
Anon, have you implemented a system?

>>18186565
obsidian.md

>>18192385
I'm implementing one right now. I'm very interested and am tentatively moving everything I own on Google Drive and TextEdit to Obsidian.

>>18190710
The amount of stuff connected to Ironic Shitposting but not connected to anything else is a bit unsettling, zettelkasten friend. I would advise you work on connecting and forming a tighter web and further enrich your knowledge and being. Some examples could be Computer system to Choosing a future, how to write a random scifi to Law and Economics, I am not a robot to an Eye for an Eye.

>>18192429
Thanks for the concern, anon. If you look at the previous posted graph here >>18189263 you can see that I'm still having difficulty with total integration to the concept. I'm still stuck in a hierarchy mindset. I have these big centralized points of the book I'm writing, work related notes, bar prep, jurisprudence, books I have read, and ironic shitposting. I think I just haven't spent enough time inside one note to push through and link it to something else. That is one reason I'm excited to be using obsidian instead of roam, because the web can be open at the same time as the note itself. So many of the notes themselves are thing's I've written and just dumped into the thing, without a second look. Like, looking at these different hubs, the only one that really has the beginnings of a true innerworkings web is jurisprudence because it's all based on comparative theories. I will try to work on that anon. I'll go back through some of the notes and flesh them out and link em' up. To illustrate how my mindset just isn't there yet, I started thinking of how to link the ironic shitposts and thought "well, half of them are advice, I could connect them all with an advice node!" instead of thinking "what parts of these pieces of advice to anons are similar and overlapping?

This thread is going to die by the time I wake up, isn’t it?

>>18192881
Probably. /lit/ is not ready yet, but we shall be the vanguard.

>>18189628
Analyzing more of this LYT stuff, there's a good chunk of useful information, but this is more of a business trying to brand methods (seriously, look at their "Is this course for me?" trying to shoehorn pandemic reasons to buy it) than actually an earnest community trying to help you, so take all their obsession with "THE RIGHT METHOD" with a grain of salt.

I say that as someone with experience on learning Japanese and all the "scene" of YouTube pseudocelebrities trying to repackage the same study principles into different names and colors to get a quick buck out of brodudes with a sheep/gym rat mentality. It becomes all about technique policing and the gospels of my favorite guru, with learning as a secondary priority.

>>18189178
I don't think that's how neo4j is supposed to be used. But with thousands of notes it must be hella fast to browse though.

>>18190239
Is there a way to put numbers into the linked mentions or other ways of identifying in the case there's multiple entries?

>>18194716
Yes there’s a switch for that in options.

Well, I won't be able to generate cool graphs, but I use a tree-based inline browser extension to perform knowledge management. I find it very effective in being able to recall information for use in daily life - the information is almost mirrored organizationally in my mind in the way I format it in my database.

>>18195331
How do you suppose I integrate 3 years worth of law school notes into a system? Because the subjects were taught in such an isolated fashion I kinda gave up outlining and just used other people’s notes. If I had had some sort of system where it all mingles together, I think I would have been much better off. Perhaps go through those outlines and make a note for each bullet point? I don’t think the review would be that bad, but just the time.

Your system looks cool. Could you elaborate on it a bit more?

>>18186269
Left is centralized directly, middle is centralized with proxies, right is decentralized

>>18195331
I know this extension, never seen someone use it like this. Neat.

>>18195389
Well, being mostly unfamiliar with law, I am assuming there must be a variety of different sub-topics within the field itself. In my system, those would most likely be classified in such a way:
-Mental Optimization
--- Philosophical Concepts
------ Political Philosophy
--------- Law
------------- [eg. Property Law]
------------- [eg. Criminal Law]
------------- [eg. Family Law]

Because my system is based on categorizing mostly external, online primary/secondary sources, it would most likely not be ideal for your need of categorizing copious amounts of electronic notes. In that case, if you find integration with online/other resources desirable, you might look into using Evernote. If you are only looking to categorize your own textual data with no external content, I suppose some of the options in this thread might be ideal - I haven't tried any of them.

Based thread. Inspiring me to get my head more organized

>>18195810
Right, and that's how I had organized my Folders of notes back in law school. But it was a system like that that would isolate all these concepts that were already pretty contextless. I appriciate the input anon. I'm trying to tackle some of the notes in obsidian and it seems to be working alright as chunks that hover around a particular subject but still allow it to be more web based than tree based.
>>18195861
Tell us the software you downloaded or if you grabbed note cards and what thing you want to start taking smarter notes on, anon.
Also I'm just going to keep posting screenshots of this stuff. These charts are so cool.

What programs you guys recommend besides obsidian? I'm currently using sublimeless zettelkasten but i'm afraid the program will crash or something because there is no updates anymore

>>18196896
I was using roam but it was browser based and extremely laggy. I tried that personal wiki software (zim I think) but it was kinda clunky. Obsidian is just so fast and pretty and useable compared to where it was when it started.

>>18195331
Are these bookmarks?
This lookssuicidal, I've been on the Internet long enough to see even titans go 404 time and time again.
Unless your goal is to have a temporary database for something like graduation.

>>18196896
>>18196934
Same here. I tried Zim, Scrivener (for screenwriting), Tiddlywiki, World Anvil, Anki (yes), Notepad++ and maybe another 3 personal wiki programs, but Obsidian feels like the best option. It's not as friendly on the surface. Even then, markdown is no rocket science and you can eventually learn how to deal with media and other things.

>>18196940
It's not bookmarks, it's basically an HTML representation of various URLs with custom titles & hierarchical structure. Almost anything that is wiped or edited can be re-added with an archive.org link, as long as the original URL is stored.

Recently got interested in this stuff but sadly I'm a freetard so I spent most of today messing with org-roam which has been more annoying than I expect something like obsidian would be but on the other hand it fits into an emacs workflow im pretty comfortable with.

With regards to the Zettelkasten itself there was some stuff I couldn't wrap by head around.

One confusing thing was that I read that the notes themselves should be "atomic" so they contain one idea and one idea only, but when I checked some examples, I saw that people usually write akin to personal wikis with large blocks of text.

I guess it could all become clearer when put into practice but so far thing whole thing seems quite opaque.

>>18197468
Bear in mind not everywhere (if anyone at all) is following the ZK process to a T, so they may be doing things that are either better or worse than the original method, like not being atomic enough.

You might be thinking of hub notes, though.
Go here and have a looksee, this article and its sub-articles gave me a lot of more concrete ideas on what to do:
https://zettelkasten.de/posts/overview/

Bump

Remember zettelkasten is more than organizing information, but also thinking through writing. Write, write, write.

What should I include? I have thousands of bookmarks on my computer and a lot of screenshotted proclivities from when I used Twitter, and some other interesting 4chan stuff. How would I even integrate the amount of shit I already have?

>>18198839
It's not something you force, it's something you slowly build upon for a lifetime.

>>18198918
I see, yeah, I'm just worried I've missed things I found massively important from years ago. But then again, the stuff I've found filed as "massively important" from years ago got succeeded by something better or I stopped caring about.

>>18198924
I would say whenever you do remember things related from that filing, you could see if it holds any relevancy to the current material you're interested in. If it is, you could articulate your thoughts about it and leave your thoughts behind for future you to look at and pick off on if it ever turns out to be an epiphany. One item at time could definitely snowball into a large connected network in a few months or years time. You never know what you'll piece together and that's the beauty of it.

>>18198945
Good advice, Anon—thank you.

>>18199014
>>18198945
To build on that. Right now I’m incorporating legal topics from law school as I get cases in the same area. So like, today I was helping develop a living trust for a clients so I opened up the outlines I got from other classmates at the time and rewriting them into atomic notes.

>>18186269
WHAT THE FUCK IS A 'ZETTELKASTEN'????????

>>18199092
You know how when you take notes they are kinda scattered and all over the place and vague and three weeks later you forget what it’s talking about?

What if, after you took those notes, you took a good hard look at them and rewrote them to a short little blurb that could stand on its own. Then what if you put all those blurbs together in one spot. Then what if you linked the blurbs together when they had something in common or made you think of something? That’s what it is. A centralized place to decentralize your notes.

>>18198839
>>18198924
>But then again, the stuff I've found filed as "massively important" from years ago got succeeded by something better or I stopped caring about.
You're on the right path, anon, one important approach to do anything in life is to learn to let go.Not in the sense that you should forget everything, but that you shouldn't be held back by an infinite, crippling backlog that is so heavy it stops you from making new things.
Start writing, see what is still relevant to you. If you WANT TO - and that's important, it should stimulate your brain -, you can go through your book marks and chip them away slowly, but don't dwell only in the past, keep finding stuff and a fresh mind.

Pic related might be useful to you, it's from the "How to Take Smart Notes" book.
Also the Collector's Fallacy: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/collectors-fallacy/
Also "just start bro": https://zettelkasten.de/posts/your-first-note/

>>18199047
Could you post an example of an "atomic" note?
>>18199289
Yeah, I think I have Pure OCD or something of the sort, but as I've gotten better at managing it, I've realized that I literally don't need to catalog the minutiae of everything. (Slightly unrelated, but the smartest people I know have aphantasia and openly admit to forgetting many things we would consider "important" or "seminal".) Thanks for the good sources, I think I understand better what I'd like to maintain; I see now that most of my bookmarks and screenshots are not of great relevance, and that I've understood and utilized most all of them.

Anyone tried to do this on paper? My computer has shat itself and it'll be some time before I can afford another one.

>>18199428
People have been doing it on paper for centuries. It just seems a lot more exhaustive, but very doable if you won't have an issue transporting.

>>18199428
I don't even have your problem but I'm already getting lazy trying to imagine the day I'll have to transcribe all my notes to my computer. I would probably just wait for a computer, lest I be doomed to do manual cards forever.

>>18197017
my advice is to export all the URLs to a text file and use it to capture PDFs of all the websites just to be safe

>>18199713
Not him, but any easy way to do this?

In Obsidian, how do you tie things together? Everything I have is an orphan.

>>18199930
I've linked works together, but they seem to unlink immediately after I close them.

bump, not letting this thread die

>>18199936
Are you using the test project that comes installed? It is immune to changes.

>>18200639
The test project? I opened my own vault for this, so I don't think so.

i said bump

Is naming your note with YYYYMMDDHH useful just for keeping it "impersonal"?
I don't get it. The software itself keeps track of notes and fixes broken links when you rename a note, so is there a reason to use it in Obsidian?

>>18201305
yeah also wasnt sure about this. on top of that. how do folders work in obsidian, should i file things or just let it all build up and rely on my connections/tagging?

>>18199428
Yeah, completely fails me because I'm too lazy to go through all my papers and writing. I have countless papers of stuff written on them and I'll never look at them again, might as well be fuel for fire. If I write stuff on a computer, at least I have a chance of looking at things again. It only takes one flick of the finger to move down a page with a mouse.

I think I just found my people

>>18199764
I don't know how the other Anon would go about this, but I would copy all the links in a text file, like he said, and then go to each one of them and do a full-page screenshot with a full page extension, at least following those instructions.
What I'd personally do is go through everything in the page and mine it manually, saving the images, coping the text, etc. This way you can manipulate it later however you want. So far I've been doing this in Word, but I'm beginning to see the flaws in the linear approach to information and I have been thinking of a better way to organize it, which is why this thread caught my attention. Sorry for the blogpost.

>>18201131
Why are you bumping, Anon? What do you seek?

>>18202374
World enrichment. If we better society one step at a time through the indulging of knowledge, perhaps we may one day reach such an enlightened state in which knowledge is the most valuable possession over all else.

>>18202502
Quite an ambitious goal for this thread

>>18202282
Welcome to the secret society

I've been thinking of a time capsule concept. I write down what I currently know about something. Store it away for a few months. Look at it again. See if I can remember the things on the card or refresh myself through reading/time/etc. then rewrite a new note. Or, if I do remember all the things on the card and I've learned anything new, I add it to the card to see the progress I've made then store it away again. It also works both ways if there's something wrong on the card, I can add on to the card, how that was wrong and learned from that.

>>18203671
Similar concept, I'll be facing my demons straight on through the slipbox, trying to rationalize a way out.

"If insight becomes a threat to your academic or writing success, you are doing it wrong". - How to Take Smart Notes, Page 77

I think the general mindset of using a global, linked note system is a godsend for any kind of knowledge work even if you don't follow the rules very strictly. Piles of project specific notes get more disorganized and difficult to reason about as you add to them, but a well maintained ZK/personal wiki actually becomes more useful the bigger it gets because implicit order emerges from the interconnections.

That said, it's just another useful tool. The most productive thing a writer can do is sit down and actually write. The most significant chunks of work generally get churned out with hard work and long sittings, not cobbled together from gradually accumulated post-it notes.

I wish I had done this my whole academic career. Just imagine what I would have amassed from graduate and undergrad. I guess I could look through my old notes and incorporate them.

>>18202233
I just take pictures of them. If I need something I'll find it.
>>18202282
Based!
>>18202367
Good post, Anon.
>>18202502
You aren't me, just become Christian.
>>18204357
I noticed this. Definitely secondary.
>>18204544
The amount of relevant things is a lot less than you think, Anon.

bump

Does anyone have experience with Zotero? The Obsidian community really likes tutorials about it's workflow between it and obsidian. Basically to keep track of your PDFs and possibly automatically takes care of your citations.

>>18206072
As I don't publish academic papers, I just note things however the fuck I want, if I need the material, I google it up/find the book by its name.

I've seen some videos on it though and it looks pretty good, especially the whole "formatting templates" you can download for several different papers.

AAAA BUMP

>>18207033
How long do threads live on /lit/?

>>18207101
I hope this one lives for a month

>>18207125
I'm not letting it die.

eternally based thread. We'll need a zettelkasten general soon (/zng/??)

What projects are anons working towards with their ZNs? Ficton? Non-ficton? Are you guys academics or spergs? I like this thread and the people in it.

>>18207209
You can call me a sperg, but I'd also like to take up an academic position someday. For me it's just greater comprehension and general writing.

>>18207209
General non-fiction to inform and improve my life and creative work (ideas, drawings, writings), which I'd also like to organize in some way.

This might be my final bump before I let this thread go and start /zkg/. Hopefully we can get some resources before this goes away.

>>18207209
Fiction and sperg here. I also note down non-fiction and personal thoughts as a way to reflect on life.

The acronym for Zettelkasten is generally ZK, so /zkg/.
Or /pkm/ for the broader sphere of "Personal Knowledge Management" that is used on the rest of the Internet.

>>18207834
An introduction to the concept should be written to make it accessible, I think the main reason this thread isn't that active is because it was written in a way that doesn't really say much for those who don't know it already.

Food for thought: traditional library systems are appropriate for a physical context. Unfortunately there's too little development in digital space to utilize the potential of it. One thing that comes to mind is music organization and danbooru software. I think a tag based system could be much more efficient and intuitive if utilized on an OS level, plus it mirrors human thought and types of categorization much better. NOTHING is exclusively one thing or the other.
How would you organize a library that you use for personal interest, research and work? Different projects that use different texts? How would you deal with overlap? Shortcuts? Duplicate files?
A powerfull tagging system would help tremendously. Pair it with mind-mapping and three dimensional folders and tree structures... run a query on it and go nuts.

>>18207973
I have already thought deeply about this and tried many software, but they all fall short exactly because they are not OS-level, so any changes you make to the (still-existing) folder structure must be done inside the tagging program otherwise it loses track of where the files were.

If the OS itself came with not only tagging, but the mindmapping/wiki tool itself, it could keep track of where every file is at all times and allow for much more freedom, just drag and drop everything however you please inside your map and it doesn't matter where it's saved, what is its file size, etc.

But sadly programming is stagnating, as people get more and more compartmentalized into pre-made libraries and ways of developing things, as well as the new trends of just giving everything to be munched by an AI and spat out as a non-optimized algorithm. We'll need some tagging assburger savant, a non-retarded Terry Davis to pull it off.

>>18207950
I think I like this generic and descriptive name more, Anon who intends to make the general thread.

An Anon that wants to learn about information management could search for something like that and find a personal knowledge management thread, but without prior knowledge maybe he wouldn't find a zettelkasten general thread.
Thinking of which, what about "Information Management General"? I think that's as broad as it gets and although there would be a risk of not being too specific, it might attract more people. Or even "organization general", /org/, for straight up organizing everything? Maybe I'm starting to write nonsense.

A good, understandable, readable, and recognisable name is important, I feel.

>>18207973
>>18208043
You are god damn right. I've thought of something like this also, how to properly organize art references? By type? By quality? By date?
Why not all!
What you describe would be wonderful, especially merged with an information management system of sorts. Something like local pools for image versioning and edits with attached text or viceversa in a more smooth way than what's possible through folders? We should develop this idea in the future general thread.

>>18208046
/notes/ - Note-taking and knowledge management general. Just chipping in, I don't know.

>>18208057
I'm glad this resonates with someone else.
In the past I have also tried to fiddle with databases just so I could make my own personal DB of media I consumed and my thoughts/ratings in a way that would allow for any type of media to be archived, not just music or just movies (pic related was me brainstorming). I then realized it was too limited and gave up.
If you are the anon trying to improve drawing/creative works, consider checking my craiglist post on >>>/ic/5381756

>>18208057
>>18208046
I'm really glad you agree with me. Just organizing my university stuff is awful with the amount of clicks it takes to deep dive into various folders - and of course you have to know beforehand which path to take. Not an issue now, but in a few years time? Fugetaboutit!
I saw some post mildly related on /g/ and posted similar thoughts there, but was met with dismissal. Very disappointing. The only thorough resource I found was this: https://www.nayuki.io/page/designing-better-file-organization-around-tags-not-hierarchies

A big issue would be usability. If you had a million tags you had to manually (arduously!) go through/assign, it would quickly become overwhelming. So an ideal system would need to be dynamic to allow for the addition of later tags, and smart to suggest tags based on context (other tags) and content. Its UI would need to be simple as well. I was thinking of various bubbles you drag a file through to 'collect' tags, but surely there are better alternatives, or maybe one could have different options for different use-cases.
Finally, a tree/node structure incorporating folders - either in addition or generated dynamically through queries - would be useful in some cases, I imagine. But development is stagnant here too. Just think of Apple's feature to tag folders with colors that has yet to make it to Windows platform standards. This is a tiny step in the right direction - but why, for fucks sake, do folders have to arranged in a 2D grid or a fucking list? Why not have nodes and depth to them? Different sizes? All of this could be used to organize information much more organically.

>>18208094
As far as I can tell, you're between ten and a hundred times better than me. I'm not sure I could be of much use art-wise, but I'll write as soon as I get discord going, it doesn't want to install.

>>18208121
You gave me an idea, I'll get working on it and hopefully I'll have some rough concept for when the general thread is made.

Would this zettelkasten method (or others being discussed ITT) work for learning things?

And I mean in the more traditional sense of learning, like picking up a language or maybe reading a history book and writing summaries of everything that happens, your own "timeline" of events linking things here and there.
Sounds like a nightmare, but an interesting one.

>>18208894
Yes. The system inadvertently reinforces anything you put into it by making you rewrite it in your own words and review it repeatedly. Both of which are the most important things when learning. You are also putting it into context of other things by linking, so you’ll remember the thing based on jumps to get there and not just random information isolated.

for me it's tags and grep

>>18209335
I wish I had listened to my autistic friends in highschool a decade ago and started learning Linux.

>>18198839
I leave resources as they are, whether in my hard drive or bookmarks. If I use one for a note, I'll just link/name it at the top.
As far as the natural sciences go, it's not that useful or important to make a separate note for your resources, since that kind of stuff is generally common knowledge. But when it comes to reading the social sciences or philosophy etc., it would probably be a good idea to link notes to the book you got them from.
Picrel is what my prettier notes look like.

Your first note doesn't matter much but make sure you plan how fractured you want your tags to be.
Personally I don't see the appeal in journaling or anything like that,
so I can't say much about using it for daily notes, but plenty of people seem to like it.
>>18206072
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fjhad-Z61o
>>18208043
I don't have a problem with just putting all my notes under one vault directory. Where else would you put your notes besides ~/Documents? Is ~/Documents/Vault a problem?
>>18208894
I don't think it would be very useful for learning languages. But that's just my style, which is immersion-based.
Making timelines is interesting... you can go as grandular as you want, but I don't really see the point. i.e, I would make a note for 'Battle of Stalingrad' and probably leave it at that, categorizing the specific events by headers within the note.
>>18209335
Based and /g/pilled but how do you implement tags?

Also this whole gestalt is called personal knowledge management so if you want a general it would probably be called /pkm/

Should we do a test run for everyone? Like find a subject and have everyone pop out a few notes and link them and show how they integrate into everyone else’s system? Like, the wiki article about sunflowers or something.

>>18210454
That's a great idea, practicing zettelkasten together. However it relies on summarizing large amounts of information in small notes, so I don't know if a wiki page will work since it's so small already.

>>18210454
Let's do this

>>18210587
Probably in the general thread, then.

>>18209535
>Where else would you put your notes besides ~/Documents? Is ~/Documents/Vault a problem?
The discussion was more about media at large.
And how in order to integrate them into these notes you need to keep a copy of them within the ZK directory and that creates duplicates and more complexity to using your computer.
Might not be that apparent if all your media is dedicated to the ZK in the first place, but for creating something visual (let's say a game, for instance) it can get hairy, with updating character pictures, reference images, concept art etc.
Especially if you do like some said in this thread, keeping all fictional universes in the same project to look for interesting connections.

Anyone use ZK with programming? I’ve read it can work but I don’t understand how exactly.

I never found these "second brain" note-taking methods particularly useful. The idea of them revealing supposedly hidden associations is spurious to say the least. I think as long as your note-taking process is embedded in a concrete research project with an explicit goal you can't really go wrong with what method you use.

>>18186269
I'm the anon that wrote the comment you're referencing. I'm glad that people were interested enough to look into it! There is a lot of great advice in this thread, and some advice that I disagree with.

>Are there any fiction writers here who use any these systems?
It's great for stimulating the imagination. I haven't used it for fiction yet, but I plan to.
>Should/can I have a single database for ALL areas of my interest, or is it better to have separate databases for separate areas
I highly recommend keeping everything in one database. Having every subject or topic in a separate database completely defeats the point in my opinion.
>More unexpected links/ideas seems like a nice perk, but I don't know if that'd be cataloguing hell.
The unexpected connections are the sole reason why this system is so good. Cataloguing hasn't been a problem for me at all so far. I have 1400 individual notes, and don't see it becoming a problem in the future. Just use a few tags on each note and you should be fine.
>trying to avoid overarchiving and focusing more on organic idea generation
You've got the right idea!

>>18186457
>Humans are good at fuzzy associative thinking by default so I find a lot of these decentralised, free-flowing "mirror the structure of your brain" type systems a bit of a gimmick. It's no benefit to go from trying to remember the information to trying to remember where you saved the information in your 2000 page wiki.
I completely disagree. For years I had an absolutely autistic note taking structure of folders within folders within folders, and not only was it was a complete waste of time, but it took longer to find what I was looking for than it does now. A zettlekasten is fuzzy associative thinking on steroids, kind of like a conversational partner, but with the ability to easily crystalize that thinking. As for forgetting where you have kept something: open up 5 or 6 notes side by side and you will be bombarded with "memento's" of previous connections you have made, which (if you have actually connected your notes as you should) will enable you to find whatever you are looking for with ease in seconds. It's similar to the method of loci.

>>18188844
>I also feel like I'm missing something. How much do I break down a given text? I know that the 'one thought per card' thing just isn't going to work for me.
I have no problem with making small notes. If I have a concept that I want to add, but only have 1 or 2 things to say about it, I just go ahead and create a note for it so that I'll see it later and maybe add on to it.

>>18189316
I don't see why putting more than one subject on a single note would be bad
It does not facilitate the finding of novel connections.

>>18208894
One possible exception to the "one database" recommendation would be if one wanted to learn another language through it, which I believe would be quite fruitful. I usually just use spaced repetition though. (Which I highly recommend using as well).

>>18212250
For me it's less about having insights and more about making sure I covered all bases of an idea; if I don't not it down, my brain keeps them slightly floaty/foggy in my head to avoid feeling wrong.
Having all the steps of something carved in letters allows me to stop juggling the (foggy) ideas in my head and clearly see the whole picture, so I gain brainspace to function and get things done.

>>18212250
I'm curious, which other "second brain" note taking methods purport to reveal hidden associations other than ZK? Also, If there is a connection that can be made, and you don't see it, then it's not "supposedly hidden". It is hidden, period. If the method you use reveals a connection you wouldn't otherwise have seen, then it's revealing a hidden association.

>>18212508
For me all of the aspects of an idea are defined in advance by the the terms of the question I'm trying to answer, and new questions arise in response to failures at answering prior questions. Second brain methods only model this process incidentally and in doing so generate a lot of irrelevant noise.

>>18212735
The association was never hidden, it was actively made by the note-taker. Second brain methods subject this process to an arbitrary mechanism defined by the terms of the note-taking method rather than to the terms of the research question itself.

>>18212783
>The association was never hidden, it was actively made by the note-taker.
Semantics. Is "making" the association not the same as "seeing" it? That being said I've never seen anyone but you claim that ZK can reveal hidden connections. I always just use the words novel or unexpected.

The mechanism is the subjecting of the association process to somewhat arbitrary schemata, which is the point. While the "noise" this process generates may be irrelevant to that specific question you have at that specific time, it's not irrelevant to the system as a whole. If you disagree, then why ever bother talking with another person? you will inevitably each have a different schema, though they will overlap somewhat, just like a ZK.

>>18213345
Why talk to just anyone when I can cut out the middle man (the arbitrary mechanism) and curate who I talk to from the get go? After all, I'm trying to answer a research question here.

>>18213433
theoretical sampling in a nut shell lmao. talk to x and get y, look at y and decide to ask z next. based grounded theory

Could start writing down my dreams and connect each entry with why in the dreams I keep Going to see spider man 2 at movie theaters where I can’t see the screen.

>>18214839
lmao

dont use anything proprietary. use zim wiki to create a local wiki for all your interests. if you want to view and do some light edits on your phone, use syncthing to sync and markour to view/edit

>>18193800
for me, it was the ability to use algos to find hidden connections (which afaik the other zk software doesn’t have) that made it so impressive for a zk. also you can convert your map into a 2D vector which was also interesting

Here's an update of my graph. Been adding a few notes from some reading. Went through my phone notes and added them in. Tried to go through my old school notes but they are all such trash I don't even know the context or where to begin when it comes to them.

>>18211470
It is true that you need media in the vault directory for obsidian. I don't see why they wouldn't be able change that at some point.

>>18215423
>>18211470
Well, you can make a symbolic link.