/lit/ - Literature

>>18150797
The Quran

>>18150797
>Rumi's works
>Arabian Nights
Painfully obvious ones.

Eothen is an essential classic if you're into travel writing

>>18150797
this is such a broad subject, I'd recommend looking more into the specific civlizations of the middle east rather than the middle east as a whole. You can find many books about the Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Persians , the many islamic caliphates etc.

That's a huge subject. Ask me for something specific and I'll answer ya.
>t. literally works in a Middle East oriented think tank

>>18150874
>Eothen
What's that? Never heard of it.

>>18150887
Wow, interesting. How about something Iran-related?

>>18150797
The Great War for Civilisation
Pity the Nation, both by the late great Fisk.
Orientalism by Edward Said
A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani

>>18150887
>Middle East oriented think tank
What do you guys do whole day?

>>18150898
>Orientalism by Edward Said
Does that book even hold some merit nowadays?

>>18150887
Can the divide between the Islam and the West ever be bridged?

>>18150889
An account by an author who took a trip through the region in the 1830s. It's brilliantly written and is a very interesting look into how the area was at that time. It's also insane how risky he was, he was taking bigger risks with a literal plague than anyone does with covid in the modern era.

>>18150899
We fap to Islamic geometry art

>>18150893
Eternal Iran by Michael Rubin for a broad, well written overview of Iran's history. Guy's a rabid hawk, but his scholarship is pretty good, and he often points out things most pundits choose to ignore when talking about Iran. Read him and keep his prejudices in mind while doing so.

>>18150899
Read Twitter feeds all day.

>>18150904
No.

>>18150902
It's debatable but if you read Fisk and then use said you realize that Western nations have committed many atrocities against the Middle east. 9/11 is parralleled with the two aparment blocks in Lebanon. Or the reason the Iranian republic went Islamist or other things. Robert fisk is very good.

>>18150916
>No.
Why?

>>18150917
>reason the Iranian republic went Islamist
Stop blaming the West for bad things in Iran. I never heard these whataboutaries in 'justification' of Nazi Germany for example (the treaties, reparations). Typical lefty Iran regime defender.

>>18150921
The /pol/ tier, albeit correct answer is low IQs and very, very high ethnocentrism. The other reason is that it is "cool" to hate the West (and especially the US) in the Middle East. The whole place suffers from pathological anti-Americanism, and it's something that inflicts everyone, be they religious, moderate, or secular.

>>18150916
>Read Twitter feeds all day.
Any good ones to follow?

>>18150887
>Middle East oriented think tank

>>18150957
Is this comic where he the jew face meme comes from?

>>18150959
No

>>18150921
>1 random picture

>>18150957
>Slavic sounding name

>>18150916
>often points out things most pundits choose to ignore
Like which ones?

>>18150954
What a non answer. I see that you're either larping, or this is not your area od expertise

>>18150962
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/world/europe/pope-francis-iraq-ayatollah-sistani.html
It might look like it but it's far from it. This is like Trump actually going to NK to meet with Kim type of event.

best overview book is A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani

>>18150797
One tip I am going to give you is don't approach this from a secukar point of view because you won't get the whole picture. While it's possible to be secual in the West where you jave Christianity alongside everything else, Islam is more like life itself than religion. Everything is Islam, therefore don't try to separate it from the region, but try to look at it as a whole.

>>18150995
What is with this supremacist exceptionalism?

>>18150985
How about the latest Tim Mackintosh-Smith book on Arabs?

>>18150995
The answer is complicated. You cannot understand the Koran without needing some understanding of Arabic, but even across the Middle east the Arabs are only one people. They are sorta like proto Aryans in that they came in a conquered. You have Kaybils, Berbers, Coptic christians, Shia's, Kurds, Samaritans, Jews. Its more diverse than what people imagine.

Christianity was life to once. If you didnt attend Mass on Sunday you could be labelled a potential heretic.

>>18151068
Not your the guy you are responding to, but the Arab's and Arabic have the sort of chosen people vibe going on. The Koran was trasmuted and recorded in classical Arabic and the Prophet was Arab. They conquered the middle east and installed themselves as the elite. Islam took centuries to become installed after many years of jizya or slow integration. Large parts of the middle east were nominally Christian. Egypt still has millions of Coptics

>>18151068
That doesn't make any relation to what I am saying. Middle east is primarily Arabs and Arabs are primarily Muslim. You can't study one without another, from a secular point of view, because Islam is monolithic like that.

>>18151074
>They are sorta like proto Aryans in that they came in a conquered. You have Kaybils, Berbers, Coptic christians, Shia's, Kurds, Samaritans, Jews. Its more diverse than what people imagine.
True Arabs aren't the only ethnicity there, but that's the point I am making is that you can't separate ethnicity from Islam, since Islam is all encompassing, and in a sense every Muslim has been Arabized, in various degrees, since Islam was revealed through Arabic language and the Arabic people.

>>18151093
You can make the same case about India and Hinduism, and Europe and Christianity, then.

Amir-Moezzi's What is Shi'sm?

>>18151183
Why specifically Shi'a?

>>18151192
its not the only book you should read about the arab world, but its the best introduction to shiism, which is important to understand many conflicts in the muslim world

>>18151176
I disagree, but if you're willing to make the case I'm willing to listen.

>>18151240
>I disagree
Why? How is Hinduism in separable from India? On the contrary, it is more closer a deeper related to India than any other religion among anh other peoples. For thousands of years.

>>18151205
Anything for Sunni?

>>18150917
Risk was outed as lying throughout his work. Avoid that nibba

>>18151252
>Why? How is Hinduism in separable from India?
I'm going to be honest I don't have much knowledge about Hinduism and India and I was referring more to Europe and Christianity, since Europe is really secular and has managed to disentangle religion from many aspects of life.

>>18151292
He comes across as a MUH WEST BAD kinda typical lefty guy

>>18151304
Agreed about Europe, but India? Hinduism is there since thousands of years, at least since ~2000 years before Islam was even born.

>>18150797
Start with this.

>>18151281
sunni is just majoritarian islam

>>18151308
>Hinduism is there since thousands of years, at least since ~2000 years before Islam was even born.
The fact it's been there for longer could possibly work against it's case, since there was more time, for stuff like secularism to happen. Especially since India much like the rest of the world was a victim of European colonization and imperialism by the British, in this case, and the imposing of Western values upon them. Although it seems India is bouncing back from that and they are reasserting their own long history and customs back, but I am unsure what the degree of it is.

>>18150797
>rich but practices solidarity by low-key funding it's more impoverished neighbors
>NEETs for life, only 3% of the Emirati workforce is native
>capitals are the crown jewels of the Middle East
>practices slavery, don't give a fuck
How are they so based?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ_HTABr7hA
Video related, this is the average day for the average Emirati NEET

>>18151320
Just finished this yesterday. Absolutely fantastic primer on geopolitics, everyone on /his/ should read it.

>>18150957
Most Middle Eastern think tanks are fronts for neo-liberal Americans/American educated Arabs in my experience

t. Lebbo

>>18151370
Interesting. Not many good reviews on goodreads

>>18151106
Islam being an all encompassing identity is a relatively new phenomenon in the Middle East. Of course, we're talking about a vast region with many different cultures so there will be exceptions, but in general the need for an identity that privileged Islam came as a result of the creation of artificial states post WW1.
The Arab world is highly diverse, so whilst the region saw the creation of states, the nation (and therefore nation-state) didn't really follow. Islam is more a factor in consolidating power for regimes. That's also why we see competing visions of Islam in the region(pan-Arabism, Wahhabism, etc.). It's a way for the states at the centre of these movements to co-op political power by entering the backdoor of religion.

Hell, the Bedouin, the archetypes of Arabia, are barely Muslims. You can certainly learn a lot by looking at Islam, but don't take the retarded 'Clash of Civilisations' approach and truncate an entire region into a single entity. You lose far too much detail that way.

>>18150902
no
its just early wite peepo bad shit

>>18151435
It is very influential in postcolonial and third world studies departments.

>>18150959
no, that is by a cartoonist named A. Wyattman aka Nick Bougas

>>18151445
Yes, departments that are literally 'wite peepo bad'

>>18151435
It is the basis for much subsequent post-colonial critical theory bullshit, yes. It is however still influential in the region and thus gives a good primer of what many educated Arabs think of the East-West dynamic

>>18151427
It's mildly redpilling, although Marshall (a Bong) breaks out the liberal progressive sermonizing about freedom, democracy and human rights in the ME, Africa and China chapters.

>>18150953
Nazi Germany was good though.

>>18151486
This guy has some good points. You should see it as a primer, an introduction into geopolitics, if you're interested in the topic you should absolutely read more in-depth stuff thought.

>>18150797
Fisk is pretty good place to start for modern day war of terror.

>>18151429
>Islam being an all encompassing identity is a relatively new phenomenon in the Middle East.
Yeah there were quite a few communist regimes in the Middle East in the second half of the 20th century. A couple of them even banned hijabs and mandated Western clothing. I think the economic rise of KSA led to more extreme Wahhabi Islam gaining prominence in surrounding countries.

>>18150972
The Mosadegh democracy meme first comes to mind.

>>18150956
Just follow Al-Monitor.

>>18151532
Fisk is awful, the Middle East version of Chomsky. The guy's a Syria truther for fuck's sake. Plenty of much better authors out there.

>>18151515
Based leftist boomer

>>18151560
>Syria truther
Assad never used chemical weapons on his own people. It was pretty much proven that there was no evidence for such claims a few years ago by certain organizations.

>>18151560
>a Syria truther
A what?
>much better authors out there
Go on.

>>18151544
Reading the Qur'an was banned in (not a communist regime) Turkey.

>>18151515
Anyone who says Israel is an apartheid state should be ignored.

>>18151587
>Reading the Qur'an was banned in (not a communist regime) Turkey.
Lol no, wrong

>>18151546
>The Mosadegh democracy meme
Huh? What do you mean, anon?

>>18151588
Israel has some interesting electoral laws vis a vis what can happen if an Arab party somehow "wins" the government, also etc etc. There's a case to argue that it is fundamentally an apartheid state. Anyway, not wanting to derail I'll allow you to tell me to stfu.

>>18151594
Which part was wrong, Turkey was never communist or the Qur'an wasn't allowed to be read?

>>18151578
A Syria truther is a tankie who, against all freely available and easily verifiable evidence, insists that the Syrian government never used chemical weapons during the war. As for better authors criticizing the war on terror, I recommend Andrew Bacevich (who's a conservative by the way).

>>18151597
There's this meme that the US aborted Iranian democracy by overthrowing prime minister Mosadegh in 1953. Reality was very different though. Mosadegh was a thug who persecuted and intimidated his opponents, and Iran was neither democratic nor stable under his rule.

>>18151544
That's certainly part of it. It could also be put down to the collapse of secular pan-Arab socialism in the region. That allowed for a different type of pan-Arab ideal to take hold, focused on the 'ummah'.

For Saudi Arabia, their government's internal/external legitimacy is tied to its Wahhabism. Their population (unlike the rest of the Gulf) strongly identifies as Muslim. So, the Saudi regime positions itself as the 'true' Islamic state (obviously helped by their stewardship of Mecca and Medina) and uses this as a political tool not only at home, but in the rest of the region. It shouldn't be surprising to you that most Wahabbi mosques in the West are funded by the Saudis and their Gulf allies.

At the same time, post-Iranian revolution, the Iranian regime created a similar theological-political dynamic. So now they, too, have a vested interest in pushing for a stronger religious sentiment in the region (they're now even dumping millions trying to convert Sunni Syrian jihadists).

I'd say the prominence of religion in the Middle East is like 70% geopolitics and 30% culture.

>>18151588
Kourosh made a mistake freeing the J*ws from Babylonian captivity.
Since the Persians gave you existence, they have the right to take it away.
Even if Iran were Zoroastrian, it would want to ethnically cleanse the Jews.
Just your very mere existence is a black mark on this world.

>>18151631
>That allowed for a different type of pan-Arab ideal to take hold, focused on the 'ummah'.
Are you saying the ummah is historically unprecedented?

>>18151631
>For Saudi Arabia, their government's internal/external legitimacy is tied to its Wahhabism.
I think KSA will become secularised in the next 15-20 years. MBS has already put the wheels in motion. The need to cultivate non-fossil fuel income will push the Saudis to make their country more attractive to Western investment, and this entails them becoming less religious. IIRC MBS has imprisoned a couple of top scholars as well.

>>18151675
No, but that certain regimes (Egypt, Syria, etc.) played on this historical precedence (whether real or mythologised) to legitimise their supremacy in the region. Never forget that the modern nationstate is a wholly new introduction into a majority of the region. Pan-Arabism and its offshoots were initially conceived as a reaction to the imposition of artifical borders/nationstates by colonial powers. What wasn't considered was that those who had been granted said power would be unwilling to simply resign.

>>18151682
It's possible, but I doubt it. Saudi Arabia is a rentier state heavily reliant on foreign income. The state has all the political power, but foreign income is distributed to keep the populace satisifed. As you said, they'll need to cultivate a non-oil related source of currency, but its current political economy is highly stagnant. It's typical of most ME countries in that its labour force mostly populated by unproductive state jobs. For MBS to succeed, he'd have to entirely re-organise the political economy AND ensure that this new source of income/industry is profitable enough to keep up the kickbacks to the average citizen. It's possible, but unlikely imo

>>18151682
Also, I forgot to add that it simply isn't in the state's interest for the average Saudi to become less religious. Their concern is modulating the fanaticism to acceptable levels such that
i. It doesn't pose a threat to the state
ii. It doesn't scare off foreign investment
Otherwise, Saudi Arabia has a vested interest in remaining a semi-theocracy due to the geopolitical/soft-power opportunities that come with that position

>>18151635
You get your info from maymays.

>>18151624
Quran one

>>18151901
Find me one public intellectual who openly says Kourosh/Cyrus made a mistake sparing the Jews.
If he had just slaughtered them there and then, the world would have moderately been better.

>>18150893
Ervand Abrahamian and Andrew Newman are pretty good authors on Iranian history. If you want to understand Iran's ideology the works of Khomeini, Morteza Mottahari and Muhammad Taqi Mesbah Yazdi have been translated to English. Hossein Ali Montazeri's work on Wilayat al-Faqih is pretty interesting (albeit autistic) but it's only available in Arabic.

>>18151904
The ministry of religion was enforcing recitation of the Turkish translation in the salah, and teaching the Qur'an in Arabic was illegal. Old people have told me that when they were children they had to act as lookouts for the secret Qur'an lessons because the police would arrest people, stories made me think of illegal gambling dens and Dickensian street urchin characters.

Maybe banned isn't the appropriate explanation, I'll retract it.

>>18151780
>it simply isn't in the state's interest for the average Saudi to become less religious
Well imprisoning scholars and relaxing religious laws doesn’t really help Saudi Arabia’s reputation as the ‘guardians of the deen’ or whatever. The average citizen will push back on it but the leadership has incentives for dialling back the extremism.

>>18152051
When their only real reputational competitor for the 'deen' is Iran, these infringements are relatively minor by comparison.

>the leadership has incentives for dialling back the extremism

Yes, to acceptable levels. That's still a far cry from overt secularisation

>>18151923
Do Iranians believe this? I can't not love Iran more. One day I'll get their behtareen kaleens.

>>18152111
Hmm that’s true. What sectors other than oil do you think will develop in Saudi? Commerce/tourism like in the UAE? Also have you seen ‘the line’ project proposed by MBS?

>>18152188
that’s not so bad you know

>>18150887
glowies are getting so brazen on here now

>>18152199
How is he a glowie kek

>>18150902
I tried to read it but it was like he didn't even say anything. I don't know how to explain it but the book kept making the same points while I don't even know what those points are.

>>18150797
Two great anthologies of Mesopotamian literature are:
The Literature of Ancient Sumer by Jeremy Black
Before the Muses by Benjamin Foster

- and then you'd do your self a disservice by not grabbing Andrew George's Gilgamesh translation.

>>18151626
>Iran was neither democratic nor stable under his rule.
It's not like Iran was democratic or stable in both the preceding and successive periods of Pahlavi autocracy either, depending on what your definition of stability is. Yet, Mossadegh was, however, elected by the Iranian parliament with a vote of confidence to form a government, which using oil nationalization as a boost in popular support might have paved the way for the further development of an Iranian constitutional democracy. All new things are messy and dysfunctional when they are just beginning to take root, and democratic governance in a country like Iran which had only known feudal despotism and autocracy would certainly have been that (especially when there are powerful foreign forces working to subvert or destroy it). It doesn't strike me as fair to ding Mossadegh as a "thug" for basically being forced to play on very hard mode in that regard.

>>18152159
persian here, we all admire hitler for his good work

>>18152029
This seems to be correct.

>>18152001
Any particular book(s)?

>>18153403
Is that Hitler slumped over in the back?

>>18150797
This series

>>18153694
Very expensive.

>>18153687
Why do you care?

>>18153687
Seems to just be sleeping. That or he is reading something

>>18154347
>Hitler
>reading

>>18154383
Based

>>18152188
Weird diagram.

>>18153403
Lol no, they do not.

>>18154383
>Yes
Quite a lot actually

>>18150797
Been reading Lawrence's Seven Pillars for leisure, while the perspective is interesting the other titles mentioned are probably more informative.
>>18154383
second chapter of MK even has a section dedicated to how to read properly/efficiently, but please lets not ruin this good thread

>>18154688
Having books does not mean reading them lol

>>18153687
idk what movie this is from
>>18154681
t. butthurt communist kurd

>>18154775
>t. butthurt communist kurd
You know nothing about Iran.

>>18154789
johudparast

>>18154804
>t. one-ball-parast

>>18154837
you have to go back to r/Iranian

>>18154869
>reddit

>>18154995
you have to go

>>18155027
No

Bump

>>18152638
Tankies are the absolute worst. Mosadegh was a petty tyrant, and was widely seen by Iranians as such at the time. Yes, he was fairly elected, yet that does not negate the fact that he was setting himself up to become a ruler for life, just like Erdogan -who was also democratically elected, and who inspired democratic hopes early in his career- did. That doesn't justify his overthrow of course, nor does it absolve the Shah of blame, but it's just how things were at the time. I know your tankie brain can't handle it, but not everyone opposed by the US is a good guy.

>>18156604
Mosadegh, Pehlavi and Khomeini.
Who do you like, intervention-anom?

>>18154775
You kurds are one step above bedouins and even worse you are reddit.
No homeland for you.

>>18156636
I'm not pro intervention. The Shah was the least bad of the three.

>>18150797

>>18156810
Good book, shares lots of information in a very compressed way.

>>18156604
>was widely seen by Iranians as such at the time
Source? I have mostly seen Iranians of all political spectrum not badmouth him.

>>18156755
This

>>18156851
+1

Bump

Bump

Bump

Hump

>>18156810
lol no

Pump

>>18157689
Huh, why?

Bump

Bumpo

“Germany was our age-old and natural ally, Love of Germany was synonymous with love for Iran. The sound of German officers’ footsteps was heard on the shores of the Nile. Swastika flags were flying from the outskirts of Moscow to the peaks of the Caucasus Mts. Iranian patriots eagerly awaited the arrival of their old allies. My friend and I would spin tales about the grandeur of the superior race. We considered Germany the chosen representative of this race in Europe and Iran its representative in Asia. The right to life and role was ours. Others had no choice but submission and slavery. We discarded the old maps and remade Iran into a country larger than what it was in Achaemenian times.” Reza Shah

>>18158979
Iranians are cringe

Bump

Bump

Bumpo

Bump

>>18160103
>>18160271
>>18160380
>>18160662
Read the sticky

>>18150906
reminds me oh this

>>18156661
arab historians described kurds as the bedouins of persia, which is what they are, mountain persians
>>18158979
Reza Shah didn't say that

>>18150797
Just a few off the top of my head:
The Bible
The Qur'an
1001 Arabian Nights
The Incoherence of the Philosophers
The Incoherence of the Incoherence
Der Judenstat
Orientalism

>>18160730
>Read the sticky

>>18162025
Also you can add Antiquities of the Jews and The Jewish Wars to this list

Are there any books on the arabic spring?

>>18150797

>>18162028
Use this one it's way better than that shit.