/lit/ - Literature

>>18150493
>What is the source of suffering?
Fear and the illusion of control

Metaphysical theories about suffering explain nothing, But if they serve as a distraction, they can be palliative of that pain.

>>18150493
THE UNITED NATIONS

>>18150493
Technology and industrial society

>>18150493
The incapability of existence to know itself that is everything in the universe.
It has to depend on another thing to self reflect(Hegelian dialect) in the hopes to self recognise and gauge . But the truest self recognition can only happen a self consistent,self generating system is created and that is the direction where existence is going. A by product of that path taken by existence is what we call life,something that is so hell-bent on self preserving and self replicating that it can fight back effectively against entropy.

>>18150493
demorats and ultimately the frankfurt school :-(

>>18150493
>>18150523
mathematical logic tried to confront this problem and the best proof we've got so far in proving that it's not possible to create a self consistent system are the incompleteness theorems,but they're heavily debatable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_second_problem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gödel

>>18150493
Expectation - to an extent. Or as buddhists would say, desire.

God, as the cause of everything, is the creator of suffering.

>>18150493
according to gnostics, the demiurge is the way he is because sophia (wisdom) didnt do the diddy with the couterpart aeon theletos (christ/the one longed for) but what is that a metaphor for? does it mean we have to long for wisdom or we have to stop longing for wisdom or we have to attain the longed for wisdom? in which case, whats the longed for wisdom?

>>18150539
But if u follow the Buddhist doctrine,u'll never know the ultimate reason for existence and suffering. Buddhism is the subtle way of saying" I don't know why anything exists and I don't care because I'm dumb and weak and I will never know the truest reason for existence and it's better o just starve myself to death and be carried away by the winds of entropy".

The Fall

>>18150558
>,u'll never know the ultimate reason for existence and suffering.
Buddhism is the only way you can find the answer to this. Everything else is dualist cope. (even if they claim to be monist)

>>18150558
>Why the universe exists
This is a completely irrelevant question, it's completely pointless.
It does exist, and we exist in it. These premises are true, leave it to the theoretical physicist nerds to answer these pointless questions.

The purpose of human life or existence is a valid question that has some weight to it - and the answer is we create our own meaning by investing our sense of self into certain ideas and narratives. (Even if you think you have found a meaning, the real meaning is generated in these stories you tell yourself)

the material plane
no body? no suffering

>>18150588
everytime someone says and i hear it alot "we create our own meaning" i imagine is a stupid roastie or a zoomie saying it and i want to punch their mouth until they swallow all of their teeth so their meaning in life becomes restoring their teeth

>what's the answer, but don't give me the real answer

>>18150602
You have just created a sense of meaning that relies on misguided ideas of truth and objectivity. At the end of the day, these are all just ideas and narratives you tell yourself. You are creating your own meaning without realising it.

Also, do it next time. I want to hear the greentext story that results.

>>18150601
When you die, the entire universe never even existed to begin with.

>>18150588
Humans came from an insane amount of subatomic particles man and the answers found by mathematicians and physicists is much more relevant .Btw,the purpose of existence itself is trying to know itself.

>>18150493
>dont post the expectation and disappointment midwit take
This is the only take that we can all observe and experience. All other takes are metaphysical bullshit.

>>18150672
Purpose is individually defined and I would argue that understanding Human existence doesn't need to go back to the big bang.

The question of philosophy and specifically OP's question about the nature of suffering is about the human condition, the cause and existence of the universe itself.

Either way, if some physicist tells me they have found the particle and have a mathematical model for it all - it wont change my life in the slightest.
And it certainly wont to do anything to ease human suffering. Might help us get some cool spaceships and stuff - but that's still pretty meaningless.

>>18150688
I don't think we create our own purposes out of thin air.

>>18150686
>only what i experience and observe is true
do you trust your senses anon, why can't you see ultraviolet light

>>18150699
Well yeah it takes years of socialisation. But all that is done before you ever really ask "Why?".

And where does this sense of purpose exist if not in your mind? If it only exists in your mind, is this sense of purpose not created through thought? If you thought yourself into having a sense of purpose - did you not create that sense of purpose?

>>18150493
Unrecognition

>>18150530
Bullshit. Godel's theorems (at least the two considered the primary incompleteness theorems) are brilliant -far from "debatable"- & do not apply at all to metaphysics, which makes no claims to being able to formalize arithmetic.

>>18150701
I can prove/falsify the presence of ultraviolet light. I cannot prove/falsify your retarded (but totally internally consistent) metaphysical claims. Which makes them useless claims... mental masturbation at best... delusion at worse.

>>18150728
How do you prove the presence of ultraviolet light

>>18150735
checking cum stains in a hotel room

>>18150737
How do you verify this method

>>18150735
Ultraviolet light isn't directly perceivable, only indirectly, which means it is not real in the same sense. It is only real as an abstraction and cause of an effect which stimulates our optical nerves. Ergo we can assert that ultraviolet light is merely "metaphysically" real, but not physically because we cannot physically or directly perceive it.

>>18150743
What's an example of a "directly perceivable" thing

>>18150706
That sense of "seeking purpose,reason and curiosity" could be intrinsic to life itself.

>>18150742
Well you cum on a bedsheet and shine UV light on it.
Shine non UV light on and boom - you wont see the cumstain

This is an easily replicable experiment.

>>18150756
A table, visible light, the color brown, etc. All other supposedly physical phenomena which can't be directly observed in this way are merely reasoned into existence indirectly as likely explanations of what we directly perceive.

>>18150768
Intrinsic to monkey brain yes - but that is describing a function you are prescribing an intentionality to that function.
In this definition purpose is still a personal thing tied the way one thinks of their existence.

Purpose only exists in so far that a living creature is there to define it.

>>18150743
Retarded logic.
The effects of ultraviolet light can be measured and quantified. Its absence/presence is confirmed by testing against chemical reactions, absence of heat and skin cracking on intense exposure and 10s of other methods.
Name one method of verifying the presence or absence of metaphysical claims, apart from twisting the narrative of events post hoc.

>>18150772
But when you perceive a table, you're perceiving a table, the inference that a table is "there" physically objectively means exactly the same thing -that if you were there, you could see it- so the table is equally "metaphysical" as inferred-UV. Everything is ideal and therefore metaphysical. Science is metaphysics because it's analytical, which is abstracted from Experience, which is synthetic & concrete

>>18150784
>The effects of ultraviolet light can be measured and quantified.
That is not real. It is only a best guess explanation of the cause of effects, we are only directly sure of the effects, not of the causes. The causes are metaphysical, because we are not physically aware of them.

>>18150792
So-called "scientific cognition" inverts these & tells us: "humans are abstract, everything's just atoms" - but it's the atoms which are abstract.

>>18150792
>But when you perceive a table, you're perceiving a table, the inference that a table is "there" physically objectively means exactly the same thin
No. Because ultraviolet light is never directly perceived to be there. It is only brought into existence through reason. The table requires no use of reason to perceive its existence.

>>18150805
"Its existence"

More retarded logic.
>>18150792
What use is it demarcating reality and our perception of it when there is nothing to indicate otherwise, except perhaps very interesting metaphysical theories that can be discussed endlessly.
>>18150793
>Name one method of verifying the presence or absence of metaphysical claims, apart from twisting the narrative of events post hoc.
Answer this question first. If you can answer this, then it is no longer a metaphysical claim, whose only criteria of acceptance is internal consistency, but a science. Otherwise it is merely word games. Like you are playing now.

>>18150814
>What use is it demarcating reality and our perception of it
They're the same thing

>>18150814
>>Name one method of verifying the presence or absence of metaphysical claims, apart from twisting the narrative of events post hoc.
By checking the congruency of metaphysical axioms with reality. Does cause and effect exist? If you can dispute or affirm this, then you can invalidate a large chunk of otherwise powerful metaphysical arguments. And besides, this isn't really even relevant to what I'm arguing.

>>18150783
Only if there's an intention ,can this sense of "purpose"(which is just a formalised idea of "exploration" )be perceived as a meta thing.

For God's omniscience to be absolute, all things must be experienced.

>>18150493
>What is the source of suffering?
misidentification of oneself with the body and mind

>>18150828
Purpose is not a formalised idea of exploration.

Purpose is quite literally the believe that a universal goal that exists a priori to biological life.

>>18150825
Exactly my point.
So a metaphysical claim (a hypothesis) that can be tested and whose results can be observed and reproduced becomes a science.
Otherwise it is merely word games that depend solely on the internal consistency of the arguments posited.
>And besides, this isn't really even relevant to what I'm arguing.
What are you arguing? That there is a better argument than
>expectation and disappointment midwit take
?
If so then my argument refutes this. This incongruence between your desire and what you actually get is the cause of "suffering". A lucky few who are completely satiated aren't "suffering". Many will insist they are secretly depressed or whatever, but the truth is their baseline of getting things is higher than most, making them sad when their desire of a lot of quality things ( that they are used to ) is not met . And this "suffering" is a good thing too. It is a feedback to tell me that I should try something else, rethink something, look for different opportunities, etc.
All other theories for the source of suffering involve metaphysical claims that cannot be tested and whose effects cannot be observed. They are merely internally consistent is all.

competition and self-interest

>>18150845
It's not and that's the source of confusion in our communication. Feeling the sense of "purpose" is just a subset of exploratory behaviour (which btw is inherent to living things).

>>18150857
And so we're in the language games phase.

I define purpose differently to you, I would say that the way that we create narratives about our lifes and ascribe to those narratives importance, purpose, etc an extension of our minds need to create models of action that help us to propagate and survive.

I have issues with people who believe that purpose can be independent of these narratives. For the most part I guess we agree.

>>18150493
>>18150505
>What is the source of suffering?
and, by extension, the dellusions we indulge in to try and soothe fear and our lack of control beyond ourselves

>>18150493
negation. The answer? acceptation. there it is fag. I just fixed your shitty life, OP.

>suffering exists because of these attitudes that inhibit my success in a modern society

Wow, who knew. This board is filled with children

>>18150493
I've been thinking about it, and the belief that the highest moral duty is to reduce pain and suffering is about as anti-life as you can get.

Life is suffering, and everything that makes one successful in life is painful and causes suffering. Hard work, exercise, child birth, responsibility, etc, etc. They all cause pain and suffering because pain and suffering are the price of greatness.

Also the reduction (or elimination) of pain and suffering can't be an end but a means. What is the purpose of life without suffering? To be happy? Happiness is an emotion. You can choose to feel happy regardless of your circumstances, so if you're unhappy it's because you're choosing to be unhappy, and that's your own problem. Nobody has the power, let alone the duty, to make you happy.

Evolution/Darwinism/Natural Selection is not pretty, but it works. competition and creating winners and losers is how humanity rose above other animals, how empires shaped the world, and why you're reading this on discord instead of making cave-paintings with your feces.

Lastly, there are several alternatives that don't create moral duties on others if your goal is to reduce pain and suffering. These include:
- The "Brave New World" solution where you give people drugs to make them feel happy and not feel pain.
- Remove the parts of someone's brain that causes them to be sad or process suffering so they can be blissful idiots.
- Eliminate all lifeforms that are capable of feeling pain and suffering altogether, thus eliminating pain and suffering itself (especially humans)
- Develop a masochistic fetish where you train yourself to process pain as pleasure and get into the cock and ball torture scene.
- Kill yourself

Note that their solution seems to always be welfare though? Isn't that weird?

>>18150493
A lack of your own personal whore

Physical suffering? Could be a variety of things.

Mental suffering? Ultimately, I think Buddhism is correct that desire that is only temporarily satiated is the cause of suffering.

"The direct cause is expectation. The root cause is ignorance.
When you know that everything contains suffering, you'll never be disappointed or discontent."
-Art of the Deal

>>18151767
>life is a shonen anime
Saddest shit on the planet. You and your kind should be gassed.

>>18151731
>suffering exists because of these social concepts that inhibit my success in a modern society
Fixed.

>>18151892
>suffering is caused by social constructions
More city rat twaddle. If every American IP was permabanned from /lit/, the quality of this board would skyrocket.

>>18151887
>this is what i got from that post
Looks like the "/lit/ doesn't read" meme also extends to 4chan posts.

bump

>>18150493

There being a Phenomenal world.

>>18151877
BASED TRUMP
MAGA

Women

>>18150493
To answer that you have to turn to biology. Find the evolutionary benefit of suffering and study its mechanisms.

It's pathetic when people turn to philosophy for answers philosophy can't answer well. It's people like you who hate Nietzsche and adore Hegel.

>>18150493
>dont post the expectation and disappointment midwit take

t. midwit

>>18150793
>It's not real because if it were it would disprove my point

kys lol

>>18153284
>the evolutionary benefit of suffering
Lol Americans are a slave race of demons.

niggers unironically

>>18150493
It is directly related to change/impermanence. If things are to happen, they must be motivated to happen by something, a sort of unease or discontent. True contentedness or lack of suffering would be nonexistence or being frozen in time. Suffering is entropy.

>>18150784

Okay, how do you measure measurement?

>>18150493
>What is the source of suffering?
The fact that we weren't intelligently designed. We suffer and feel pain for the same reason that we have backwards retinas. Biotechnology might eventually advance to the point where we can re-engineer our brains and bodies to not suffer at all, replace pain with something like David Pearce's proposed gradients of bliss, and optimize our existence to feel the maximum possible pleasure at any moment.

https://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/index.html

>>18150558
that isn't Buddhism, that asceticism which Buddhism was a reaction and opposition to.

>>18153436
and I'd like to add that while I know there is much more that I don't know than that I do.

I am starting to get the feeling that much of this sites hatred of socialism, post-modernism and now add onto the list Buddhism is due to not knowing what these philosophies or frameworks actually entail rather than an actual distaste for them.

>>18150560
this

>>18150493
Knowledge

>>18151877
Everybody's a buddhist until it's time to do buddhist shit.

>>18150493
An illusion to make you avoidant of bodily harm, simple as.

>>18150517
>implying pre-industrial people didn't suffer

>>18154091
Not like this man...not like this.

>>18153325
you'll pay for that insult

>>18150493
chemical reaction in your brain developped by millions of years of evolution

>>18153735
>An illusion
Found the NPC