/lit/ - Literature

>>18139378
How many times is this shit going to be posted?

>>18139381
I don't see any other threads about it in the catalog.

>>18139387
other thread got deleted.

>>18139387
lol

>>18139378
Yeah. I do believe fantasy can have literary merit in principle, but it's foolish to delve into pulp literature or genre-fiction before achieving some enduring & attentive immersion in the classics

>>18139396
>other thread got deleted.
Huh. Then how should I know that I shouldn't post it?

>>18139378
If people aren't interested in classics, forcing them to read it isn't going to do anything but waste their and the teacher's time.

>>18139396
>unironically posting Ulysses
get the fuck out of here

>>18139407
dumb opinion

You won't find 12 worthwhile Dutch classics.

>>18139421
how many times have you seen people forced to learn/do something very long and tedious and them getting actually their intended use out of it

Someone post the Bakker meme quote

Tolkien is literature in the same way that 1984 or brave new world is literature
I think it's just barely literature, but it's still literature nonetheless; just not good literature.

>>18139442
How do you think people become interested in things? You aren't "born interested in classics", you aren't even born "interested in fantasy"; you learn mimetically how to appreciate their value; if this isn't happening, if you're not cultivating yourself or being cultivated by others, it doesn't speak to the lack of normative value of classics, but rather to the impropriety of a particular teacher or educational figure (parent, friend, family) which needs to be rectified. The whole thing is disguised as an "uhh reddit I need advice" post but what's really being asserted is norms

>>18139453
tolkien is miles ahead of Orwell

>>18139378
incredibly based

There’s a fine line between airport novels and low literature that I can’t put my finger on.
A comic book isn’t really any different from an airport novel, but I would consider Watchmen to be literature despite using the same trappings.

>>18139407
True, compulsory education was a mistake. If plebs don't want to read then so be it! No one can or should make their decisions for them or coerce them into it some ideal.
Sadly though, we are now trying to adapt this ridiculous model onto colleges and universities and young people have chosen to take up concepts like """Free""" education; all the while, the quality of education (and of students) in even the elite institutions has gotten much worse than it was before.

>>18139467
because watchmen is pulp lit. Just like LOTR or HP Lovecraft

>>18139378
This is an interesting conversation to have, whether works of fantasy have any 'literary merit,' but ultimately it's pointless because the definition of 'literary merit' (and the definition of 'literature' too) is so vague as to be almost useless. Some people (most notably, several prominent fantasy authors, like Terry Pratchett and Patrick Rothfuss), would argue that 'fantasy' is the wellspring of all literature, since mankind's earliest works of fiction 'could' be classified as fantasy simply because these early works contain fantastical elements such as gods, monsters, and other worlds. I think this is really reductive and a bit insulting, because while works like The Odyssey and the Iliad *do* contain fantastical elements, these elements only exist in the work because the authors actually believed in them, and they were very important to people's culture during that time. You would be hard-pressed to find a fantasy author nowadays who actually believes that the gods and monsters and fantastical realms in their stories actually exist in real life. Some works of literature are revered only because they are culturally important and had a large impact on books published in their genres later on; in this case, LOTR could be considered 'literature' because it single-handedly invented the concept of the modern fantasy story (and the genre of 'epic fantasy') and almost every work of epic fantasy that came afterwards was either a direct response to Tolkien, or a response to a response to Tolkien, and so on. Some works of literature are esteemed as literature because of the themes they explore; in this case, the fantasy works of Ursula K LeGuin could be considered 'literature.'

>>18139541
I think the most obvious metric by which to measure the amount of literary merit a book has, is the intention of the author. If the author's goal in writing the book was to explore some deep human theme or experience, then we could say that that book has literary merit. If the author was just writing because they wanted too, or if they were just writing to make some money, or if they were writing to indulge some kind of fantasy, then we could say that work has no literary merit. Thus, you get some works of 'literary fiction' that don't actually have any literary merit at all, and some works of fantasy that do actually have some literary merit[1]. If a work was very culturally or historically relevant, you could say it has some literary merit; thus, as above, you get some works of literary fiction that have no merit, and some works of fantasy that have some.

[1] At the same time, the majority of published fantasy will have no literary merit, because exploring human themes is not the goal of most fantasy authors (and it is not something most fantasy readers want anyways–a good setting and interesting characters are usually more important, the same way that a crime is the most important part of a crime novel, and a romance is the most important part of a romance novel), whereas 'exploring human themes' is the goal of most works of literary fiction, so on average, works of literary fiction will have more literary merit than works of genre fiction.

>>18139428
max havelaar
eline vere
adam en eva
ontdekking van de hemel
amsterdamse verhalen
camera obscura
de avonden
mei
het verdriet van belgie (flemish but who cares)
kleine zielen
bint, blokken en nog wat
lof der zotheid

off the top of my head u cunt

>>18139845
ok cool but u have silly accents and your language sounds funny like baby babble so ok duude

>>18139845
He said worthwhile retard

>>18139845
Are these authors or books? I've never seen a bigger list of literally whos in my life. I didn't think dutch people could write I just thought they birthed 6'4'' lanklets, rode bikes and built countries under the sea.

>>18139922
Dutch Bioshock-Futurism Theory

The teacher is a pretentious bitch, but the act of reading isn't valuable in and of itself either. If it's sad that "kids don't read much anymore," it's because they're not engaging critically with challenging books. The written word doesn't have any intrinsic superiority over any other medium.

>>18139396
Lord of the Rings is a good introduction to medieval political theory. Other than that it's rubbish.

>>18139458
> What's good is what's canonical
> Cultivate me, daddy

>>18139378
Is there such a thing as "Dutch literature"? The only relevant writer born there was Erasmus. Espizona doesn't count because he was a Jewish Portuguese.

idk how someone could say the Silmarillion isn't literature

>>18140264
*Espinoza

>>18139378
I do what I want and I say this is literature:
Nigger nigger nigger
nigger nigger
Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger
Nigger nigger niggerfaggot


What about that fags?dont like it? Well I dont care

>>18140303

>>18140333
sus

>>18139453
Tolkien’s work is extremely deep and thr teahcer and you are both faggots who probably only saw the movie

>>18139378
Seems like the teacher needs to have sex.

Seems like they have a Napoleon complex akin to Canadians forcing Canadian content to try to be as relevant as the US.

Forcing the classics will help some and make others resentful. Seems like its biggest impact will be to produce elitist assholes (something the education system is pretty good at).

There's nothing wrong with reading shit like LOTR. If you get into the lore and start buying Funkos then it becomes a problem.

Audiobooks are fine. But you're not going to get the most out of them if it's something dense. You're passively listening to things and I doubt the average person who prefers audio over reading pauses what they're listening to reflect on it (let alone goes back over it a few times while building their own ideas or related to it).

>>18140333
you wasted trips on this

>>18139396
You can learn plenty about the human condition from Tolkien and Lovecraft though.

>>18140619
yeah, those are both pretty inarguably genre literature, that guy chose bad examples. Most fantasy is not lit though

>>18139396
To be fair...I learned all I needed about how to be a pretentious cunt by reading her Twitter handle and just one of her opinions.

>>18139378
Based teacher

>>18139378
That teacher is based because she triggers both redditors and /lit/ anons.

>>18140619
>You can learn plenty about the human condition from Tolkien
You can, especially once you realize Tolkien is legit mythology and not fantasy.

>>18139396
Nobody reads Lovecraft kek, otherwise they'd never utter such stupidity. Also, 'muh human condition.' Potter is low hanging fruit, and Tolkien I dislike.

>Dutch Tolkien

Dutch literature in itself is pretty blunt and poor, why would anyone expect a Tolkien from that gutter culture?

Also, Tolkien was somewhat of a ''Dutch Tolkien'' considering he was born in South Africa and probably spoke Afrikaans, which is dialect of Dutch.

>>18139442
Hundreds or thousands at the very least. Do you not remember the monotonous rote native language writing exercises and math exercises you had to do in elementary school?
I'd give a few personal anecdotes that I can remember from high school as well, but with ADHD my experiences are very biased.

>>18139378
both teacher and student and most posters itt are dipshits
lotr is nonfiction

>>18141108
based

>>18139541
>>18139638
That's a good way to put it.

>>18139873
just because you’re a monolingual cunt doesn’t mean you have to be proud of it
>>18139922
these are all book titles
>I didn't think dutch people could write
I personally think Dutch literature is severely underrated outside of the Netherlands. You probably recognize the names of authors like Erasmus, Multatuli and Vondel who wrote some of the books on that list and desu you can’t say you’re familiar with European literature without knowing those authors.

>>18141108
based

>>18139396
>comparing Tolkien to harry potter

>>18140589
wasted????

ngl sounding kinda sus, broseph

>>18139378
Didn't read majority of the comments here. My reasoning being the teacher is Dutch. Dutch people are blunt as fuck (trust me, I'm half Dutch and have seen my uncles reduce numerous random partners of my other uncles to tears just through sheer bluntness...it's actually pretty hilarious when I think about it).
Also, they are stubborn as fuck so the kid might be better off trying to win an argument with a brick wall. It's not all bad as they make awesome cheese and liquorice so the kid can go have some of that when he gets sick of arguing with this human personification of a brick wall.

>>18139453
The Hobbit is extremely well written, which is a testament to Tolkien's ability when he was trying.
In that light you actually have to respect his other works. I don't like them either.

>>18139378
All literature is literally fantasy, unless you include e.g. vacuum cleaner manuals under the umbrella of 'literature'.

>>18139396
>art is about understanding the human condition
I kind of agreed with him up until that point, but I can’t stand people trying to essentialize art.

>>18143044
This. Homer was a fantasy writer - you don't learn anything about the real world from Achilles and Aphrodite

>>18139453
Exquisite bait, anon. I expect at least another 4 replies to this post.

>>18140333
formerly suspicious

I agree with her that listening audiobooks isn't reading. Listening is a completely different cognitive process than reading, the experiences are not comparable.
Popularity of audiobooks is just another sign of societal infantilization, "please mommy tell me a story"

>>18143067
there is a big difference you cunt homer actually believed in the gods he was writing about

>>18143128
>if I believe in unicorns my story about unicorns is now non-fiction

>>18143138
>he doesn't believe in magical horses

>>18139378
/ourgirl/
when did people start calling having standards and taste as "gatekeeping"?
I swear I haven't heard of the term up until this year

Nice thread

>>18139845
Only Dutch book I've ever read in Dutch is De Aanslag. Any other good books for a lowish reading level?

>>18143039
the hobbit is his most consistently written work. he put the most effort into the flow of the prose with that one. LOTR and Silmarillion are much more interesting aesthetically and reach higher points with their prose than the hobbit does

>>18143103
Lmfao. Tell that shit to Homer LMAO

>blah blah blah

>edit: oh wow! this blew up!!! blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

>>18139638
>if they were just writing to make some money
You mean like Dostoyevski? He had issues, and was paid by word, and he definetely shat out some ageless classics because he had gambling debts or whatever.
>because exploring human themes is not the goal of most fantasy authors
>the same way that a crime is the most important part of a crime novel, and a romance is the most important part of a romance novel

Fantasy often draws from myths and certain archetypes, they are exploring human themes.
Crime and romance are also human themes.

Your definition of "literature" is just following what the rest of the pretentious people think.

I bet you think that jackson pollock &rothko and whoever that english douche who brings dead fish and cigarette butts to an art exhibition are the peaks of art.

And in music, surely the dodecaphonic atonal music must be the highest achievement of western music

>>18143262
Couperus: "Van Oude Menschen, De Dingen, Die Voorbij Gaan" (in English it's "old People and the things that pass" )
W.F. Hermans "tranen der acacia's" ("the tears of the acacias")
Nescio: "De uitvreter", "Titaantjes" and "Dichtertje"("free loader", "little titans" and "little poet")
These are the first that come to mind when I think of Dutch classics that are accessible early on. You can also just keep reading shorter novels of Mulisch like "Stenen Bruidsbed"

>>18143875
>>18143875
>You mean like Dostoyevski? He had issues, and was paid by word, and he definetely shat out some ageless classics because he had gambling debts or whatever.
Yes, but he intentionally explored deep psychological themes in his work, even though he was writing for money. He had multiple goals. Compare Dosto's serialized works with Faulkner's Sanctuary; Both were writing for money, yes, but Dosto had other goals in mind for his stories, while Faulkner wrote Sanctuary to be as sensationalist as possible because it was for money, nothing else.

>Fantasy often draws from myths and certain archetypes, they are exploring human themes.
"Often" is the key word here, and you find this more in older fantasy works than in newer ones. Like I said, there are plenty of fantasy works that could be considered to have real literary merit, its just that those works are the minority in a sea of not-so-great fantasy literature.

>Your definition of "literature" is just following what the rest of the pretentious people think. I bet you think that jackson pollock &rothko and whoever that english douche who brings dead fish and cigarette butts to an art exhibition are the peaks of art.
I do not; this is coming from a person who is an avid fantasy reader and also reads a lot of literary fiction. I can recognize the flaws in both genres which is why I am confident in talking about these things. My argument is primarily in favor of fantasy literature, while at the same time acknowledging that (like all book genres) 90% is garbage.

>>18143875
>You mean like Dostoyevski? He had issues, and was paid by word, and he definetely shat out some ageless classics because he had gambling debts or whatever.
Dosto arguable wrote his worse stuff when under this pressure. Uncle's Dream, The Gambler and Eternal Husband were all written for cash and to remind people he existed, and they would be among his worse works, IMO.
The books that he put the most time into, when he was at his most secure are the ones he is remembered for.

>>18139396
>human condition
Unlike these larpers I've been a human my whole life that socializes. It's like reading a book on how to walk and breathe.

>>18139378
No.

If you don't agree that reading Tolkien is worse than not reading at all, I would like to remind you of the utter waste of oxygen that is Finnish Tolkien anon. This is what reading Tolkien does your brain. Extreme autism and extreme delusions.

the difference is between men and women. i like stories about courage and battles, i don't like stories a bout mr darcy and his throbbing cock. neither is "real literature"

>>18145034
Have sex

Hmm I saw that thread. Shame that Terry Pratchett quote consumed most of the discourse.
I feel it would be more productive if we substituted 'Literature' for 'Literary Fiction'. I think the redditors wouldn't get their panties as twisted because they'd go google the definition of 'Literary Fiction' and see oh well this is a well defined thing and things it is not that has been around a long time better defer to authority; whereas any tolkein-tard can semantically quibble about what's 'meaningful' 'literature'

This is a valid literature as the "classics".
Neither are about real events and pic related has more artistic merit than whatever a random aristocrat shat out back in 1800.
Only books worth reading are biographies of dictators.

>>18141057
counterpoint: You learned more about your native language talking with your peers, parents, instructors, and reading engaging books than by memorizing abstractions of grammar rules. You will never be able to learn something that you don't give a shit about very well.

>>18145283
fag, go read jane austen you fag

>>18140039
You can discern freshman university students by their total inability to express relationships non-sexually. Being educated & intellectually cultivated by your father by reading or talking about literature together at home is great & should be done more.

>>18140333

>>18139378
>reddit faggot cries about gatekeeping rather than sitting down with her and asking her to clarify her ideas
Many such cases.

>>18140619
>Tolkien
Completely ridiculous.
>Lovecraft
You can say it touches on feelings of alienation, but anything beyond that is just desperate reaching.
>>18140647
>yeah, those are both pretty inarguably genre literature
No one says this besides faggots from /lit/ and reddit.

>>18140863
Tolkien's pastiche of myth is inauthentic for it represents nothing that exists in a relevant culture. It's simply pure aesthetics, and nothing more.

>>18145350
>This is a valid literature as the "classics".
>Neither are about real events and pic related has more artistic merit than whatever a random aristocrat shat out back in 1800.
Masturbate before posting.
>Only books worth reading are biographies of dictators.
Let me guess, you're a /pol/edditor that thinks "LE MEIN KAMPF XD" is a shocking and powerful work of literature, right?

>>18139378
She would be based if she weren't dutch
Except Erasmus, this country doesn''t have nor had any worthwhile author

>>18139442
In order to be good at drawing people, you need to be able to draw basic shapes extremely well, as well as do things like figure drawing and drawing from life. The best artists in the world have their foundations based on these skills.

And the skilled artists I know talk about how much they hated that practice. They would rather just draw what they want, but in order to draw what they want proficiently, they need to put in the time with the humdrum basics.

Even very stylized artists like mangaka have their starts in drawing basic figures and basic shapes before they move on into their own style. If you look at Bezerk, you can even see how the creator has drawn from classical paintings to design some of his scenes.

Writing and reading is no different, and if you want your fiction and tastes to be respected as serious, you need to cultivate a basic understanding of its principles and the history of the craft. If you don't want to do this, that's fine! However, to not do this and then demand that your tastes and fiction to be taken seriously is like taking your MS Paint piece off of Deviant Art and pouting when The Metropolitan turns it way.

It's childish.

I don't know if it's worse or better that these same redditors would decry or support dime store novel romance fiction equally as literature. If you read the thread they're there

>>18139510
Ignorance has definitely changed. Instead of educating people, what's happened is that what would have been the opinionated peasant any other time in history has been given the basic tools of knowledge and uses them to deepen his ignorance. Redditors are basically the portrait of this.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with gatekeeping.

>>18148872
What is the use of gatekeeping outside of just trying to enforce your own subjective views?

>classical fiction is better than genre-fiction
Classical fiction is merely proto-genre. It begat our current slew of shitlit.
I read non-fiction.

>>18139396
>"The Human Condition."

>>18148881
keeping out people who want to turn the game into a political platform

>>18139378
The teacher is obviously a bit of a cunt. I started with fantasy as a teenager and moved later to the classics, and the latter wouldnt have happened without the former.
A less retarded teacher would have nuanced his answer and explained what classic lit has that fantasy usually lacks. Typical bitter uni product that thinks everyone's ultimate goal in life is to write a lit thesis. That being said, the student sounds like a bit of a cunt as well; might've asked why to the teacher himself, at least, before starting his rant.

>>18139378
no

>>18139378
>so many upvotes!!!

>>18143128
You don't know that
he might have been the first Atheist or he might have made most of it up compiling old fishermen tales while drunk.

Surely that bit about the trojans being too dumb to figure out that the giant wheeled horse was some kind of scam has been pointed out as shit writing since day 1

>>18148058
Read up on Mao and Stalin.
It's as real as it gets and it's the true struggle that inspires the most.

>>18139378
Why is the term "gate keeper" being used everywhere now? I see someone writing at least 2 times a day now.

>>18143262
My Dutch favourites are :
>Liesje in luiletterland
>Knielen op een bed violen
>De zwarte met het witte hart
Not sure if these are available in English though.

>>18139396
Is he gay now or is that pic of him in a dress and cat ears just another provocation?

>>18139378
I'm a Dutch student in secondary school (but I'm finishing soon) and my Dutch teacher is really cool. The last few months, we would just play guitar with him and the boys and talk about random shit instead of class. Sometimes he finds some random shit to rant about to our class. These were the last few months before exams, so we were finished with everything already. That's why we weren't really doing anything

>>18139428
You think that because you probably don't know Dutch

>>18139378
>fantasy isn't very common here
Wtf i wanna be dutch now

>>18139378
Tolkien is the only one that should be exempt from this, the madman invented his own universe, various cultures, created the language, wrote a long and terrible history of the continent and then for fun wrote a children's fable about a small man tricking a dragon, later on returned to the same created universe to narrate an epic struggle of good versus evil.

>>18139378
Yes, fantasy and most fiction should be burned. It is mind numbing entertainment, it kills one bird with one stone.

>>18139378
Tommy Wierenga is good, I don't see why high school students should get to read the adventures of Loudewijk van Homo the elf in class. Do that on your own time.