/lit/ - Literature

What do you intend to do with it?

FOR WHAT PURPOSES?

GAINFUL EMPLOYMENT, NO

>>1812397
>creative writing
girlslaughing.tiff

>>1812403
>girls_swooning.gif

fixed

I never got that they call Eli Cash "the James Joyce of the West."

Isn't James Joyce already the James Joyce of the West?

I know they are likely referring to Western America, but saying "the West" doesn't really mean this.

>>1812400
well, ideally, be an alcoholic chain-smoking writer with a body of work that no one will read while I'm alive.
Practically speaking, teach and write.
However, I am interested in editing for magazines/newspapers/whathaveyou.

David Foster Wallace was an MFA in creative writing.

Just sayin'.

>>1812419

In America it can have that connotation. Particularly when you actually see Eli Cash in the film, his appearance brings up the American west in the imagination of someone familiar with it.

Fucking cunts, who cares if it wont get him a job in an office being bored off of his tits. He wants to be a writer. What's the point of life if you don't follow your dreams? There's no god, there's no afterlife, make your fucking mark.

bump

>>1812419
Canadian here, if we say "the west" we are usually referring to western America. I can only assume to you it means the western hemisphere, which we call the western hemisphere.

>>1812448

The west is also often used to refer to western European culture and its derivatives.

OP here:
If I could I would double major in English Lit and CW but my university does not allow it (can't even minor in it!)
I did some research and I would pretty much be graduating the same time I would with my current major. Worse case scenario I stay an extra semester.

I want to change my major because I love writing and I want to hone my skills while learning different styles/forms. Also, as part of the honors program I have to write an undergrad thesis and as a CW major I can base my thesis on a collection of my own written work (with a defense, obviously). I'll still be taking literature classes but my focus will ultimately be on creative writing.
The consequences are not that bad and might as well do something I love while I'm still in college.

>I want to become a good writer via creative writing classes

no. your best bet is to stick with english lit, learn the technicalities, and actually *know* something about literature. creative writing just "teaches" the craft aspect of writing with some lit theory thrown in, so basically it's a bunch of subjective shit that could be learned on your own time with books and nobody should have to pay for it. if you stay english lit, you will at least have some knowledge of history, theory, etc., whereas creative writing majors don't really learn anything concrete and there's no standard to how it is taught.

also, 99% of creative writing classes have less to do with writing your best and more to do with writing what the prof thinks is best.

tl;dr english lit actually teaches you shit, CW is just some professor projecting what he thinks is good which is worthless to you

>>1812480

Creative Writing courses do have one merit though - networking. In taking the course, you meet up with other faggots who are going to be writers, editors, publishers, bla bla bla. You've got more chance of being published with this kind of cunt in your address book, as publishing is largely unrelated to talent, and mostly related to the people who support you. Plus, you'll probably have half-decent/well-known writers either teaching the course or as writer in residence, and that makes it a bit easier to get a good bit of fluff for the cover of your book.

Aside from that, I think the idea of a CW degree is a bit of a joke, and an expensive one at that.

bump

>>1812480

Basically, this. If you have no other way to workshop your writing then CW classes might be useful, but I find it hard to believe you could not find a group off campus for this purpose. You will have far greater exposure to the craft reading published works in English Lit classes than in a CW class of novice writers. Just make sure you diversify in your English Lit course selection.

Why is it that no one questions the logic behind this:

>I want to be a good artist, I think I'll take art classes
>I want to be a good dancer, I think I'll take dance classes
>I want to be a good musician, I think I'll take music lessons

And yet everyone is skeptical of this:

>I want to be a writer, I think I'll take take writing classes.

Criticism of writing workshops tend to stem from either inaccurate assumptions of what actually occurs inside them (the instructor wants you to write like *them*! They'll ruin what makes your writing great!) or from romantic notions of the autodidactic writer.

Also, applying for an MFA without taking a workshop class as an undergraduate is kind of like trying to get an MFA in visual art after only taking art history classes your entire life. Sure it's possible, but why go out of your way to hinder yourself when that's what you want to do?

>>1812403
>>1812480
>>1812730
>my writing submissions in creative writing classes got criticized and I took it personally

MFW programs are the reason American literature is stagnating. they teach a preferred aesthetic that's so lifeless and dull, and yet it's hard to get a serious book published if you didn't attend one.

>>1812771
>(the instructor wants you to write like *them*! They'll ruin what makes your writing great!) or from romantic notions of the autodidactic writer.

Bad instructors might do this. Good ones will want you to write in a more or less traditional style because they can teach that. That is to say, your submission of your original style in progress, in which all storytelling is done in past perfect progressive and from the perspective of the walls of the buildings might get praised for unconventionality, but will likely get ripped for being unreadable or confusing--problems really associated with your lack of understanding of how people read narratives, and not with your style.

Sounds like a waste of money.

>>1812771
Why is it that no one questions the logic behind this:
>You can't be a good artist if you're colorblind, and no amount of classes will change that
>You can't be a good dancer if you're paraplegic, and no amount of classes will change that
>You can't be a good musician if you're tone-deaf, and no amount of classes will change that

>And yet everyone is skeptical of this:
You can't be a good writer if you don't have talent, and no amount of classes will change that

>>1812852
>lack of talent = a physical deformity

>>1812425
Fuck you and your starbucks philosophy, you psuedo-edgy faggot.

>>1812771
>>1812480

take these two, put them in a blender, and you've got something like the truth.

it's possible to improve on your own, if you have skilled peers. i personally would rather be taking classes that interest me in order to inform my work, instead of being stuck in a bunch of lit and workshop classes. and i'd rather be studying something i'm passionate about that i can't do on my own.

but you can also improve by being in these classes, especially if you seriously lack an effective critical environment.

it's a very personal thing.

>>1812854
I could see how that's a tough thing to swallow if you conceive of it as 'deformity' rather than simple physical inability.

Why study English at all in college? The English classes I took all had a very narrow view of literature. I learned more reading on my own, and it wasn't tainted by some professors feminist agenda.

>>1812856
If you don't intend to ever get married, buy a large house, and/or have kids whom you want to be able to buy their first cars, and eventually send to college, there's little need to have aspirations for a traditional job in an office with a salary. Life is not that expensive if you're living it for just one person.

>>1812852
You really do have the worst, most inept comparisons.

Stop comparing and contrasting. You just aren't any damn good at it, mate.

>>1812858

checkmate.

"I'm often asked if I think the beginning writer of fiction can benefit from writing classes or seminars... I'm doubtful... In all fairness, I must admit to a certain prejudice here: one of the few times I suffered a full-fledged case of writer's block was during my senior year at the University of Maine, when I was taking not one but two creative-writing courses... Most of my fellow students that semester were writing poems about sexual yearnings or stories in which moody young men whose parents did not understand them were preparing to go off to Vietnam...

"I brought poems of my own to class but back in my dorm room was my dirty little secret: the half completed manuscript of a novel about a teenage gang's plan to start a race riot... This novel, Sword in the Darkness, seemed very tawdry to me when compared to what my fellow students were trying to achieve, which is why, I suppose, I never brought any of it to class for a critique. The fact that it was better and somewhat truer than all my poems about sexual yearnings and post-adolescent angst only made things worse. The result was a four-month period in which I could write almost nothing at all. What I did instead was drink beer, smoke Pall Malls, read John D. MacDonald paperbacks, and watch afternoon soap operas."

-- from On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft (2000) by Stephen King.

>>1812858
>having limbs = an ability

>>1812838

>Flannery O'Connor
>Kurt Vonnegut
>Tim O'Brien
>Philip Roth
>Raymond Carver
>George Saunders
>John Irving

all have MFAs or taught in MFA programs. Troll harder broseph.

>>1812874
>Stephen King
>good

Also,
>everyone is different

>>1812876
And only two of those authors are actually good.

>>1812876
Only vonnegut or O'Connor really stand out. The rest are perfect examples of the self-serving naval gazing that is post-modern American literature.

>>1812975

>Raymond Carver

>self-serving
>naval gazing
>post-modern

NOPE

>>1812978
Yeah all of those things involve something more than just talking about stupid shit that happens to boring middle class americans. which is about all Carver was capable of

>>1812982

Look at this fag bitch about subject matter because he doesn't know how to evaluate literature by what actually makes it literature. lmao go read some spivak and jerk off to literature as social engineering

lol, delicious multi-thread butthurt

wild cat. wiiiiiiiiiilld cattt.