/lit/ - Literature

>>18053720
>any progress on your novels?
Ask me not, questioner, for the answer is not one that your ears could handle. Aye, I have progressed on that project, a novel of sorts, in epistolary mode, that shall be attributed to none other than anon. But, I must admit, the letters are sent from an Hokkikomori to another, and the plot is lost in a veritable cum jar for the figurines of our questing weeb.

>>18053720
does anyone want to read a formulaic story about radios?

How to approach writing when you are consciously in the learning stage?

I've only started writing again recently so naturally my prose is quite simplistic, how does one go about developing a style in the beginning?

I know to read other authors, but should I for instance write a short story in x style, another in y style etc, and then through doing this slowly reach my "own" style?

Or is style a spook? I don't want to immitate Hemingway, but is my natural voice not enough?

>>18053720
>Any progress on your novels?
Yes, I'm done now. I was never going to become the next Faulkner, the next Nabokov or the next Joyce, but I hid behind the language barrier to avoid criticism for months, maintaining an illusion that was fun to live in while it lasted. I had thought my country's education system was topmost in the world, but this turned out to be utter bollocks.
This will be my final post on /lit/. I've been humiliated and exposed as a fraud. My writing is pretentious, infantile, banal drivel. My observations are dull, my language grade school level. My tenses are mixed up; I use colloquialisms, ellipses and onomatopoeia. I mix tired and trite idioms together to obfuscate their unoriginality with a veneer of irony; I have continued to recite ornate Jewish chimpanzee parables with diminishing returns. The parable seemed very clearly to me to be asking me whether or not the now-grown-adult can choose. I say yes, of course, but that's not my issue.
I was never cut out for writing. I began writing my "book" on January 6th. Since then I've produced 76 thousand words for it. These words are a tide of garbage without value, without insight, without form. The themes of time, space, infinity, memory and pointless duelling are not present in my work. It was never real writing, it was anime and weebshit. Look how many words I wrote, because apparently literature is bodybuilding and just aimlessly typing will somehow improve my writing. I had planned on finishing my work at a 100 thousand, then like a cancer that goal grew to a 137 thousand. I yet don't even know what genre it is that I'm writing. Is it autofiction? A comedy? A picaresque?
Regardless, I have failed. I have put down my pen. Never again will my fingers click-clack across the keyboard. No more outlines, no more characters. Goodbye.

>>18053749
Voice/style is something that you will develop organically over time. A lot of this development will involve imitating the styles of other writers you like and shifting between them until you find something that's truly your own. I see my style as an attempt to write like Shakespeare but at a level that the average entertainment addled 20-something-year-old will find engaging/exciting enough to keep reading instead of returning to youtube/reddit. It's taken me three years of pretty regular practice to get to a point where I feel pretty comfortable in my "style" though.

Thinking of writing a Cyberpunk novel about Advaita Vedanta entirely in Early Modern English prose.

>>18053737
what is a formulaic story

>>18053885
follows some popular entertainment conventions instead of attempting to be serious literature

>>18053720
Thinking of writing a Cyberpunk story qua a homage to Edmund Spenser, written in Spenserian Stanza, and containing a Cyborg Cyclops

>>18053892
give examples please

>>18053930
Finnegans wake, Paradise Lost, Ulysses

Anyone going to get into Kindle Vella? It’s in beta at the moment for American residents

>>18053720
>Been posting flash fiction (500-1000 words) over on the /ffa/ thread.
>Since I’ve started, have written over 30 short stories

Does anyone actually publish/read short story collections from unknown authors...or should i just consider these as practice and start exploring longer formats?

I really enjoy bouncing between genres and styles, and feel one long novel would get tiresome.

>>18054007
Did you begin writing because you saw it on 4chan? What a pleb, how do you not know your own form or your genre or mode hahahhahahah

>>18054022
>Did you begin writing because you saw it on 4chan?
Unironically, yes. I have published non-fiction in textbooks and journals, but /ffa/ was my intro to fiction storytelling

>What a pleb, how do you not know your own form or your genre or mode
I don’t read books from just one genre or style, why would I need to write in a monotone? That said, most authors (and artists in general) do seem to settle into a particular groove so your point is well taken. I guess at some point it makes sense to trade breadth for depth.

>hahahhahahah
Go fuck yourself

>online friend reads your story about two mentally fucked up persons with depression
>after the last page asks are you ok? I can help if you need me

>>18054183
>if you write about x you must be x!
I see, so it's like that.

Do any of you write pure trash to just get the evil out?

I'm writing about a deteriorating relationship, and it feels almost like therapy to me.

>>18054240
The best stories I write are about my thoughts and problems. Every character is literally me representing different ideas of my retarded mind.
Thanks to that every character feels real and developed.

>>18054183
That's actually pretty good feedback. Your friend is signalling that your characterisation is weak and that it feels more like the author is just speaking their mind.

Work on your character's voice more.

>>18054183
Interesting...
>writes a story about a character who is amazing in bed

Srsly, tho...it means you did a great job of creating a believable perspective

>>18054003
Never gave it serious thought. You can't publish a story on there that's available anywhere else, and money isn't exactly a incentive for me to bother.

>>18054240
>Do any of you write pure trash to just get the evil out?
i do, but i don't think i'm getting any "better" from it. it's more that i like what ends up emerging around the edges of my filth than because i'm getting anything "out of my system" in any significant way.

>spent another week just walking around the city for hours, waiting for inspiration to come
>read 20 pages
>go home and watch YouTube

How many short stories have you wrote?
How many novels?
How many poems?

>>18053749
>is my natural voice not enough?
No. You don't actually speak the way you think or feel. Writing is about learning how to get across what you actually think and feel, your "inner voice", as effectively, efficiently and entertainingly as possible.

>>18054240
Yes. Some of my best work is also my most cathartic. And it's practically a tradition in literature, come on.

>>18054259
This

>>18054815
Even if all it does is make you feel better, it's good enough. And you may not notice it, but you are probably coming to terms with things.

In fact one point of view is that all fiction is rooted in how humans deal with emotions.

>>18054922
a bit over a dozen short stories

>was drafting five chapters a week
>editing/rewriting
>one chapter a week
Why is it so hard bros

>>18055095
You don't want to scrap the things you worked so hard to make. This is why you should edit while you work, it makes everything slower but you'll feel like you're discarding less at a time.

>>18054922
>How many short stories have you wrote?
3
>How many novels?
One ongoing at 250k words, can technically be considered as 2 books so far in a series
>How many poems?
Haven't done any serious ones since elementary school desu

>>18055095
I find it easier to edit/revise than write, but i can see where you’re coming from. I’ve heard of authors that find it easier to write a chapter, sit on it, the re-write it tighter without looking at the first draft.

>>18054240
Yeah, I wrote a short story full of all my personal ””””suffering”””” and now I can finally focus on interesting stuff

>>18054922
Two 40k words or so
One 3k or so
One is 94k unfinished
One is unfinished at 20k

Do you ever write something and wonder if you’re kind of insane and what you wrote is totally incomprehensible to anyone but yourself and might not even qualify as language?

>>18055717
You okay, Kaczynski?

>>18055759
>You okay, Kaczynski?
He actually had some valid points. But no, it’s more that I’m worried I’m completely lost but just haven’t realized it yet.
I also hate my job.

>>18055717
>>18055783
You know, you could always just let other people read what you write.

>>18053749
You have to discover/create your voice. In my opinion it’s like chipping away at marble to reveal a statue. Emulate those you love but try to combine their best qualities and avoid what you think sucks about them. If God smiles on you what you write will be greater than the sum of its parts.

>>18054259
I can't write anything personal, it just turns into huge cringe. I can only write about people who have nothing to do with me.

>>18055913
>it’s like chipping away at marble to reveal a statue
Actually this is a terrible metaphor because sculpting a statue is extremely conscious and voice develops unconsciously—it has to, or else it will sound extremely fake and gay.

But on the other hand, I’m suspicious that “voice” is a spurious modern concept which promotes the harmful myth of the lone individual genius artist. I made a major breakthrough in my writing when I stopped trying to be a special snowflake and attacked it like a craftsman. When I stopped stopped seeing writing as a chance to show off how clever I was.

This gave my real voice a chance to emerge and now the stuff I write isn’t unbearably pretentious or otherwise painful to read.

>>18055956
>or else it will sound extremely fake and gay.
Not if you're an actually skilled writer.

>>18055866
But what if I’m insane?

>>18053720
>Any progress on your novels?
Not fast nor natural enough to be satisfying. Not slow enough to feel worrisome. It's progressin'
>>18053749
I'd worry more about the story first. Your prose will suck either way so it's better to have a story told with a shitty prose than attempts at good prose that won't be good anyway due lack of experience.
>should I for instance write a short story in x style, another in y style etc, and then through doing this slowly reach my "own" style?
I mean, it's a decent exercise, as is any sort of writing but it also sounds so fucking daunting. I'd worry about style later, it's more fun when it comes naturally.
>>18053814
>I began writing my "book" on January 6th.
>I was never cut out for writing.
Probably the right idea based on a wrong conclusion. If you give up so easy, writing is indeed the wrong thing for you.
>>18054922
0/1.5/0
I never felt any inclination to even attempt short stories or poems since I never read one I liked.
>>18055956
I'd say there quite some room between special snowflake genius and craftsman. Ego is obviously a killer of quality but the craftsman approach sounds too sterile. How are you going to create a work of art instead of a product if you don't let yourself go a bit?

How do you avoid getting wrist/hand cramps and pains from spending hours a day writing?

>>18056209
You shouldn't be typing that fast and long to begin with. Yes, first drafts are shit, but if you're just churning out a nonstop stream of words without thinking about it, it's going to be a fucking mess.

>>18056209
are you one of those old fashioned types that uses ink and parchment?

>>18056257
How fast and how long do you write, then?

If you need to do revisions or even a second draft are you a real writer? Harlan Ellison said he only ever needed to write things once.

>>18056288
Maybe that's why Harlan Ellison was always bitching about not being paid enough

>>18056288
harlan ellison is also remembered more for having a big mouth than for writing. after a lifetime of furious typing his actually good stories could barely fill a book.

>>18056288
I’m not Harlan Ellison

>>18056060
People still read Nostradamus.

Two questions, very broad but I hope you forgive me.

>How do you write a story where the moral message is contrary to what most people adhere to and still have it be palatable to the general public?
>How do you write a thriller with little no violence? Are there any examples?

>>18056557
>moral message
Big yikes. Let shit out play naturally and then either deal with the fact that the outcome won't be popular among readers or adjust it for max mass appeal.
>thriller without violence
Isn't the genre more about suspense and twists either way? A basic ass ransom or blackmail would do … say someone threatening to leak your nudes online if you don't follow their instructions.

>>18056557
>thriller with little no violence?
Romance or spy novel

>moral message is contrary to what most people adhere to and still have it be palatable to the general public?
This is 2 different things, both quite difficult; you're asking how to sell a contrary message and how to have mass appeal. Mass appeal is easy; give them what they want, sell yourself like a two-bit whore, bite the pillow, do all the things even as your artiste soul cries inside.

Contrary message, I have no idea. One example jumps to mind: Mario Puzo bitched that people didn't get that the reasoning underlying the Mafiosos' actions in the Godfather is supposed to demonstrate how cruel and exploitative they are. A lot of people took his heavily ironic sentences at face value however. It also doesn't help that the things they do actually make sense.

What's the moral message you're trying to sell anyway?

>>18056610
>>18056660
I guess my problem is not really the message as such, it's more making the reader sympathize with people they'd hate or at least be unable to relate to IRL and also the inverse - making the people who are typically seen as virtuous look bad without turning them into caricatures.

>>18056760
Well don't fucking keep us in suspense anon, who's the people you mean?

>sympathize with people they'd hate
AGAIN, GODFATHER

>making the people who are typically seen as virtuous look bad without turning them into caricatures
everything has pros and cons. highlight the latter while acknowledging the former. make them the antagonists to your protagonist.

>>18054183
My dad did that to me with my first book and inserted me as my protag. Yeah okay Dad my protag gets murdered multiple times I clearly have a death wish thanks.

>>18056760
The most famous recent example is ASoIaF, most of the pov characters are complete dicks but people still sympathize with them to a point. As the the character is authentic or at least interesting to read about, everything goes.
>making the people who are typically seen as virtuous look bad without turning them into caricatures
As long you don't turn them into caricatures but they are actually interesting to follow, why the hell not. Look at Mother Teresa or Gandhi; their shitty sides only make their characters more complete.

>>18056783
>Well don't fucking keep us in suspense anon, who's the people you mean?
Sorry Anon, it's top sikrit

>>18056439
Fair enough.
https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/41979/a-hero-among-monsters/chapter/666979/chapter-two-tea-for-too-many

>>18056884
Kek, the first damn sentence is "she totally wasn't a racist".

Though where is the big insanity. I hoped for some barely coherent rambling.

What do you guys think about mixing languages in your story?

I mix English and Yugoslav stuff (ranks, names) cuz i find it kinda cool, but im not sure what the reader will think

>>18057168
It can add flavour to a novel that has an international-melting-pot-of-cultures conceit, but it can get tiresome. Use sparingly.

>>18057230
I mostly use them for names. rank insignia and slang

>>18056997
>Kek, the first damn sentence is "she totally wasn't a racist".
That bad, huh?
>Though where is the big insanity. I hoped for some barely coherent rambling.
That's how insane I am. Even the most mundane things are stressing me out.

>>18057168
>>18057264
As long it's not as obnoxious as the fake Russian spam in Clockwork Orange...

how would you write an amoral yet relatable character? kinda like incubator from madoka

>>18057168
If it's a language mc doesn't understand, then I might get not write it out in dialogue. If it's a dialect of a language mc knows, then I might italise the dialogue and maybe have the mc note their accent. Other than that, I have a lot of Western/Slavic and SEA names here and there in my story,

>>18057168
Requires a lot of exposition/footnoting to be done accessibly. Im writing a short story now with Chinese characters thrown in (to indicate the speaker does not really understand the meaning)


>==2015, China==
>“You, get out!”
>“But I really just need to know if—“
>“Get out now, I call police”
>Grace directed one last pleading look at the shop owner, but it was not going make a difference. She left the spice shop dejected. This was the third one she’s tried today, and while this was certainly the most dramatic response, all had rejected her request. Was she saying it wrong? Despite her Chinese heritage, she knew only a smattering of Cantonese and absolutely no Mandarin. No, it was definitely 鼠屎. After hearing Ba say it all her life, she was certain.
>The cell research conference in Shanghai would be over in one more day, and she was no closer to finding 鼠屎 than she was back in Atlanta. This really was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and she owed it to Lucy (and Ma) to keep trying.

>Any progress on your novels?

Look, I've tried my very best. But my novel isn't even in the same ballpark as the lit posted in this general. You see great works like Exchanged, or the prose an anon wrote in a flurry of enthusiasm. It is all infinitely better than my writing. I did not even have a high standard for myself. At best I wanted to write works on the level of JK Rowling, or Stephan King, or Darren Shan. But where did I end up? Writing total and complete dreck. The worst of the worst. The lowest of the low. I mean it's good to know my work with never be as bad as say, Wish Mountain, but it's pretty fucking close.

>>18057870
How can you combine such pompous elitism and self-loathing so unironically? You, sir, are /lit/ incarnate!

When it comes to going nowhere, you’ll go far.

>>18057491
in my opinion characters need to be amoral to be relatable, we are all amoral in our own ways, no person is a beacon of morality. our flaws are what makes up much of our character.

i have an idea for a "book"
the title: quartet
4 people who play instruments that are plunged in a post annhilation world i.e they're probably the last people alive but dont know it.
one believes it to be a rapture and they are the damned left behind
one cant live with this fact and constantly focuses on music in order to forget
one aims on trying to find others
one simply lives with this fact
maybe I'll try to find a way to correlate their personalities to the instruments like the laid back one plays the cello because its has the "easiest" parts most the time
the chapters will have music inspired names like "ode to joy"
"danse macabre"
"requiem"
is this too faggy?
pic semi unrelated

>>18058079
how did they end up as four grown ass men stuck together in one situation? certainly they were with other people before? did the apocalypse happen in their lifetime, if so what did they witness happen to other people, how could they escape and why are they alone together now? or were they born into that post-apocalyptic world, if so who or what community raised them? how did they find themselves in this position?

>>18058079
also, adding to my post >>18058142 , referencing very well-known music in your chapter names is a bit faggy, don't.

>>18058156
i appreciate your comments.
the group had a common friendship together before the world crumbled around them, i failed to mention i thought of this just last night and i dont have a set in stone plot just yet

>>18058156
I have news for you loser, writing in general is considered "faggy"
Don't you have a cousin to be fucking instead of shitposting here

>>18058255
schizo, what the fuck you mean? the person who wanted advice asked if it was "faggy", so i just used the same word. i'm fucking gay anyway, if you have a problem with that word. the chapter names referring to famous music seemed like a bad idea to me, because from my personal experience overly relying on referencing culture is something many beginner authors do. why are you sperging?

>>18053720
I want to be an author. I've written many things, some of which find there way into various archives, but I don't know how to stop being an anon, and to actually become a person. My gut says continue being anon until the accumulation of my work stands alone, but I'm impatient. Does anyone have any advice?

>>18058454
In same boat am incel NEET who wants to write more

>>18058491
Show me something you've written. Here's something I wrote.

>>18058079
Sounds like it would be better suited for a short story.

>>18058505
A bit too much alliteration at the start. I get that comedic effect you’re going for with the overwrought descriptions, but it’s purple prose in horror.

>>18058660
Thanks for the feedback. I never fleshed it out more, but that's just a chunk of my "naked lunch" phase where everything is 10 nonsense phrases shoved together.

>>18058454
>write
>contact agents
>get published
congrats you're an author now

>>18056288
I like to edit as I write and maybe do a single revision. There's probably a reason I'm not published, kek

>>18053720
Finally started, so yeah a little bit.

>>18059172
Same boat here anon, how are you finding it?

Editing a novel is so fucking hard. I'm having to rewrite whole chapters with plot changes, but I don't feel like I have the excuse of "nobody will see this," which is what I used to power through the first draft, anymore. I'm trying to write real publishable prose now, along with tightening up character motivations, scene tension, and dialogue, and it feels like I'm dragging a fucking boulder through a desert where there's no pleasure to be found. No feedback in sight, and no certainty of success at all. Drafting was fun in comparison; this feels like dieting.

>>18059203
Why don't you hire an Editor?

>>18059226
1. Hiring an editor is for self-publishing. Self-publishing is for people who want to enslave themselves to an algorithm which demands they pump out a novel every month or two or be forgotten.
2. You hire an editor for line-level corrections, not for rewriting large chunks of your novel.

>>18059226
Not him, but how do you trust another with your work? And at what point would it lose authenticity? I want my stories to be my stories.

>>18059175
So far no snags, but I definitely know that once I reread the first chapter there is gonna be a ton of shit that needs to get left on the cutting room floor. How goes yours?

>>18059262
I started with a few passages set later in the story, now I'm writing the first draft for chapter one. I'm prone to editing while I write so I'm taking my time. Enjoying it so far, I feel overwhelmed on occasion though. What's yours about?

>>18059203
I used to feel like that too, and partly still do, but editing is also an opportunity to really write a novel with all the fine details that make it so much more worthwhile. Basically actually painting the picture while the first draft is just a rough pencil sketch.

>>18059247
>Hiring an editor is for self-publishing.
>Self-publishing is for people who want to enslave themselves to an algorithm which demands they pump out a novel every month or two or be forgotten.
Or you can just share a story you've worked hard on, get people to appreciate and criticize it so you become better at your craft and even get paid for it, probably even handsomely if you know a thing or two about marketing.

> You hire an editor for line-level corrections, not for rewriting large chunks of your novel.
Then you're not editing, you're basically doing a second draft.

> Not him, but how do you trust another with your work? And at what point would it lose authenticity? I want my stories to be my stories.
You don't, that's what contracts and copyrights are for. You don't always have to listen to your editor if you're the one to hire it. They're only paid to correct mistakes, suggest better phrasings and minor plot adjustments. They won't rewrite your whole work.

>>18059299
>I started with a few passages set later in the story
gmi

>>18059301
I feel like my ego gets in its own way when I tell myself that. It's not something I can finish in one sitting, and while I'm not working on it, doubt about whether or not it's perfect starts to set in and demotivates me.

>>18059395
>Or you can just share a story you've worked hard on, get people to appreciate and criticize it so you become better at your craft and even get paid for it, probably even handsomely if you know a thing or two about marketing
ngmi
>you're not editing, you're basically doing a second draft
That is editing. You think copy/line-edits are the only kind of editing that exists because you're ngmi.

>>18059299
A kid who has to deal with the guilt of wishing death upon a bully who happens to die shortly after. Also some stuff about God and the Government thrown in for good measure. Yours?

>>18053720
I need help with commas. Is this correct:

We will evaluate the model, and evaluate the distributions of beta values.

? Should the comma be there? It’s two independent sentences except I don’t write out ... and WE WILL evaluate the...

>>18059502
*I don’t write out WE WILL in the second “independent sentence”.

My first language isn’t English so I’m not sure. Please help me /lit/bros.

>>18059502
", and" and ";" (semicolon) separate independent clauses. You can use them if you could put a period in their place. What you wrote is not technically correct, since the right side isn't independent. I'd suggest:
> We will evaluate the model and the distributions of beta values.
Good luck indiabro

>>18059502
>>18059518
*SHOULD THE COMMA BE THERE?!

>>18059548
Ok, so I would have to write out “,and we will evaluate the” for them to be independent?

>>18059548
Thank you btw sir!

>>18059502
>>18059518
Either drop the comma or move the "and" to after "values" then continue the sentence. Either way, try to avoid using the word "evaluate" twice.

>>18059548
>We will evaluate the model and the distributions of beta values.
This.

>>18059502
>rules that are supposed to lead to clarity
>most people get stuck at some parts
Punctuation needs a major fucking overhaul.

>>18059571
Why do they have to be independent?

>>18059548
Thing is that these are separate evaluations. Two different independent things. Does that make a difference?

>>18059591
>>18059599
These are two different evaluations. See >>18059602. Think of it as me using two different statistical models two evaluate different things.

>>18059502
>>18059619
In order words, these are two unconnected things. I could write them in separate sentences.

>>18059619
Using "and" doesn't imply that it's necessarily the same evaluation though. Say I wrote
>I love Emily and Francesca.
If there's context to say that Emily is my wife and Francesca is my sister, then the "and" doesn't imply that I love them the same way. Just like
>We will evaluate the model and the distributions of beta values.
Doesn't imply that you're evaluating the model the same way you're evaluating the distributions of beta values, only that you are evaluating them both. If it's the same evaluation or if they're independent evaluations, it doesn't matter.

Is the reason it takes so long for some folk to write because it takes time to find the right words for your "style"?

The style that comes naturally to me is an extremely plain and simple style and crank out 1000 words an hour. I'm not exactly satisfied with it, so I've been putting more thought into how I can develop something different which led me to the realization and question above.

>>18059667
There are two reasons I write.
1. I'm constantly coming up with new ideas and I feel like it'd be a waste not to put them down.
2. I've always liked my style of writing and how easily I can write something in a dozen different ways.
Not sure how to help you anon, keep at it though. If you're enjoying yourself you'll be alright.

>>18059661
Ok. THANK YOU SIR! I wrote it like this first and it sounds better, but then I looked up the comma rules and got confused.

>>18059705
No worries anon, best of luck.

>>18059667
Just read

>>18059667
I find movies help a lot. I can’t really get a voice/style until I can hear it in my head. I can very easily key in to a character I hear, and improvise in that voice...if i try to invent from scratch, it’s slow, inconsistent, and fake as fuck.

The above doesn't just apply to speaking characters, but narration as well.

Disclaimer: I’m just starting off, not some pseud pretending to know wtf I’m doing.

>>18059667
Nah, I don't care about style in the first draft and it generally comes natural enough.

For me the bigger problem seems more fundamental, say I have characters 1 and 2 at location X and one of them wants to go to location Y to get Z. Let's even say the locations are as simple as a cafe and a mall and there isn't too much conflict between them. And that I know some limits, like that it should take 3-4k words max. There are still so damn many decisions to take. Like, how many descriptions I use and what the purposes behind these choices are, when I sprinkle these in, which details, whether and what some of the things they will talk about are, how much they can get off tangent, how much to foreshadow, how to make the thing really pop and unique compared to any other scene I've written, etc, etc, etc

>>18059812
I think you have never finished a novel

>>18059890
Finishing a novel is easy enough for me, getting to a point when I'm satisfied with the revisions on the other hand....

>>18059812
I have an issue with being overly descriptive. It makes the shorter sentences within a passage seem like they need more detail, when they don't. Then again, that's what revisions and extra drafts are for I suppose. I wouldn't worry about
>how much they can get off tangent
It's alright to divert from the story for a while as long as it's interesting and somewhat meaningful. And like I said before, revisions and extra drafts can fix a lot.

C'mon then /lit/ what are some unique story ideas you'd like to share? I'd imagine that like myself, you're reluctant to share a lot of what you plan to write. In which case just post ideas you've had, those you don't think you'll ever get around to writing. I'll start
>"love" story set in the inner city
>it's about a criminal who falls for the daughter of the chief of police
>she's interested at first
>she eventually discovers his criminal activity and horrific line of work
>she breaks all contact
>her dad is investigating the protagonist's family, friends, gang (or whoever)
>the protagonist uses blackmail, lies and violence in addition to threats to bring her back to him
>he uses trickery and deceit to make her father believe that she's madly in love with him
>in reality she's disgusted by and afraid of him
It's essentially a manipulation game between this guy and a bunch of police/detectives as well as the girl so that he can live out a fantasy. It's probably not a fantastic idea, but I thought it up the other day and reckon it'd be fun to write.

>>18056557
>How do you write a story where the moral message is contrary to what most people adhere to and still have it be palatable to the general public?
I'd advise you don't try to do both. You either go genre fiction or you go literary fiction.

>>18056760
Read Lolita.

>>18059667
I write around 250-350 words an hour. I'm the type to write it once and not have to deal with too many edits.

>>18060067
I don't have any unique ideas, but I've been trying to make a portal fantasy/isekai work for the last few years. I can't seem to get any of my characters to willingly become heroes. Other than that, I've floated the idea of writing a litfic about some guy rediscovering his family.

>>18060210
>I'm the type to write it once and not have to deal with too many edits
>I've been trying to make a portal fantasy/isekai work for the last few years

>>18060210
>isekai
I've never seen the appeal. If you're designing a fantasy or sci-fi setting then set all of your characters in that setting. Flesh it out. Unless your protagonist is incredibly unique and worthy of taking centre stage in a setting which is likely more interesting than they are, drop them.

>>18060228
I meant working it out in my head lol. Just the general plot and characters, and then I'll write once with a few edits + whatever retcons I introduce.

>>18060067
A person who has to write the names of those they meet dreams into an ancient tome in order to kill them. They have a soul contract with mystical reapers, who will punish them if they do not do this every day until their contract ends. I whipped up a one-shot based on it but I haven't explored it much because I'm writing another fiction

>>18060256
I've never seen the appeal either. That's why I keep it in the back of my head while I work on a traditional fantasy story.

>>18060256
Portal fantasy has the potential to be much more based than normal fantasy. The Wizard Knight is a good example of how you can deconstruct the genre and make something excellent and unique while still following the convention. It also has the benefit of stopping novice authors from doing a poorly-executed in medias res introduction while showcasing their setting to the reader at the same time. In most good fiction, even when it starts in a fantasy world, the setting in the first paragraphs (or at least when it begins to become concrete) is very familiar on some level. Basically, it's a way to introduce your story that is very hard to fuck up, but you have to put a lot of thought into how it's going to carry through to the rest of the story.

>>18060257
I'll spit in your fucking mouth you toad. Don't reply to my posts.

>>18060274
Good on you anon, keep it up.

>>18060228
>being mean on /lit/
We're all just trying to make it lad, take it easy. Each person has their own method of writing.

>>18060291
Every premise has its merits. Maybe I'll have to check The Wizard Knight out, because as of yet I haven't read or watched an isekai that I've thoroughly enjoyed. I don't get the appeal over traditional fiction, but I'm not saying it's a poor idea or genre.

>>18060228
>I'm the type to write it once and not have to deal with too many edits
Some people do write like that (hi there). I find that I only adjust 1 or 2 words on an editing pass.

That being said, this is my hobby writing. In my professional writing the end result is nearly unrecognisable from the draft.

>>18056144
How is it possible that STILL we get people in every thread who fall for the pasta?

>>18060291
based avatarfagging frogjacker
such an dreamt intellectual, reply to my post next

>>18060375
You don't seem toadesque. You can have a frog.

>>18060267
Radical anon, keep that at the back of your mind for the time being, it's quite a cool concept.

What do you do when you find out something you've been working on has already been done better? Specifically, I'm working on a story which features Civil War hold-outs and has characters who paint themselves to match the surrounding landscape to hunt trespassers. A couple days ago I watched the new Wrong Turn movie, and both of those concepts were in the film. There's even a speech at the beginning which not only conveys the exact meaning of some dialogue from my work, but is in fact a 75% match for vocabulary. The other 25% is just bloatage in my prose which I meant to cut anyway. And almost every single aesthetic concept and philosophical point I tried to explore was also in the film, except it was all executed much more concisely and with much more emotional impact than what I wrote. Like every plot device I had in my novel now just seems like a watered-down version of what I saw in the movie. I was so stunned that I actually had to stop and consider the possibility that I had somehow seen this movie before and then forgotten it. And on top of all of that, all the reviews I read online described it as mediocre and shallow.

The characters, setting, and overall themes of my novel are way different than the movie, but now the differences just feel like contrivances designed expressly to distance my work from accusations of plagiarism. I just don't feel like I can continue.

>>18060477
my story is literally just legend of the galactic heroes but with cute girls and I don't think much of it. I think mine is unique enough that it has an identity of its own.

>>18060477
>And on top of all of that, all the reviews I read online described it as mediocre and shallow
Alright I laughed

Maybe you should quit writing books and start writing jokes

/wg/, I have complete and utter writer's block. I can't think of what should happen next at all

>>18060560
write some short stories
then get back to it
don't procrastinate for more than a week

>>18060477
Your lucky that movie wasn't great. It had some good ideas but a lot of the concepts weren't done well imo, you can do it better.

>>18060560
Then write a later part of the story, or do some revisions on whatever you've done already. It'll come to you anon.

>>18060560
This inspirational video cures all writer's block. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxGRhd_iWuE

>>18060571
I guess I kind of expected the uniqueness of my ideas to carry the weight in terms of narrative impact, and seeing these same ideas carried out with more thought and focus is pretty discouraging. I could definitely do it better, but it feels like that would only confirm my discouragement. I'm pissed because someone might think my work is blatantly derivative, and the only way to prevent that is by deliberately counter-deriving my work. In a sense, in seems like the only way to avoid the appearance of impropriety is by actually engaging in behavior that feels improper.

Is it normal to think everything you write is trash? I always get decent feedback in my workshops & by my professors & peers, but whenever I looked at my doc's and journals, I want to kill myself.

>>18060360
Surely as writers we don't constantly hang in all the threads but actually do some writing on the side?

>>18060760
Nonsense. Only weebs write.

Just wrote a crime story... not sure if I wanna edit it heavily or send it off straight away. Or just post it here to get feedback, which I can take on board for other projects.

>>18060759
half of franz kafka's works are lost to history because he burned them in a fit of self-hatred. you're in fine company

>>18054922
>poems
Countless
>short stories
Countless
>novels
Three novellas

>>18060885
whynotboth.jpg

Been practicing some haikus or whatever:


my katana's gay
but its not as gay as yours
so let me fuck you

>>18060960
You seriously think a writer who posts their stories on 4chan can ever be respected afterwards? If I post anything here I’m not even going to let anyone know it was me.

>>18060885
Have faith in yourself, if you think it's good send it off. If you think it needs work, work on it. If you think it's a throwaway project you've been using for practice (regardless of how much you enjoyed or hated writing it) post it here.

>>18061074
Not him but why not? It's just unlikely a self-respecting one would do it in the first place.

Either way, sending in unedited shit is how you really lose all credibility unless you are a big name. Either take it seriously or don't bother wasting your and the agents time.

>>18059502
The sentence is short, so leaving the comma out is perfectly fine. There's also no meaning in spelling out two independent sentences that have the same verb.

>We will evaluate the model and the distributions of beta values.

>>18061092
>agent
You think writers need agents to send off short stories? Are you completely unpublished?
>why not?
Most writers don’t even let people know they’re working on a project, let alone post it online for free. No real publication allows for you to send them something that has been on a blog or published online. Furthermore, 4chan is known as the place of pornography, racism, gore, and virginity — why would anyone want to post it here for snarky trolls to sarcastically respond to and likely not get a single genuine response?

>>18061079
I’ll just edit it. I don’t usually undergo a huge editing process because I edit as I go. But I think you’re right I need to edit it on my own.

>>18061113
>short stories
Where was that mentioned?
>why would anyone want to post it here for snarky trolls to sarcastically respond to and likely not get a single genuine response?
Same reason they would post it anywhere else, promotion. Whether a few clicks for your website is worth it ... well, probably not.

>>18061113
tons of posts get quality crits and responses
it's just that theres only like 20 well read/practiced writers in the thread and they're not on 24/7

>>18060885
>just finished a crime story
>>18061136
I said story, but you’re likely too dopamine-addicted to read a post with proper reading comprehension.

>>18061159
I would want to speak to them and get honest feedback because it beats paying for a writing workshop or attending creative writing college.

>>18061207
just make sure if you post something you have your dialogue tags straight and there's no anime

>>18061207
>story = short story
Alright-y then. Though consider to do something to raise your dopamine level to get the edge off.

>>18053749
>essayists & aphorists
Concision, then increasing syntactic flexibility at length for extended thoughts. Style is a spook of technical facility unified with clarity of mind— ‘voice’, narrative word-thinking, ect. will remain flawed without the total apprehension/direct perceiveration of your intentions and desires.

>>18055913
>>18055956
>ideal readers
Encountering kindred spirits and sensibilities across time is part of the aim of wide reading — a particular taste is the aim, gathering up elders to consult with regularly as creative wellsprings

>>18057168
Clockwork Orange was pcool, do it

>>18059203
>I'm trying to write real publishable prose now
Plot rejiggering is tame by comparison. Do that first, stylistic passes are for the prospective editor at the publisher to deal with; this >>18059247

>>18061232
based take on sensibilities and "voice"
if you want your writing to have "style" then write more, read more and write earnestly

Got an offer for support from some so-called 'hybrid' publisher/agency, who I submitted a fantasy novel to on a whim (they came up on a google search near the top). They claim to be an agent and a publisher, and they also want some ridiculous fee. It stinks, more or less. I honestly did not expect to hear back from them.

Seeing some of the other novels they've published, they have seemingly faded into obscurity very quickly and don't appear to be physically available in bookstores (despite this mob claiming that the books they publish can be found 'in all good bookstores').

Not to mention, the 'agreement' they sent me claims 100% royalties for the author, which makes no sense (they probably mean '100% of whatever's left' after everyone else takes a cut). Is everything a scam nowadays?

>>18061256
>they also want some ridiculous fee

It's called vanity publishing.

>>18061256
There is probably a single rule to traditional publishing and agents, and it's that money only goes one way. If you have to pay even a cent, it's a scam/vanity publishing.

>>18061256
>Is everything a scam nowadays?
oversaturated market
obviously there's gonna be sharks trying to eat up wannabes

>>18061256
Lol was it Pegasus or Olympia?

>>18061274
Not true; nearly everyone on submittable charges a reading fee.

>>18061277
I'm in Australia, so it wasn't either of those. They're a small, 'independent' mob. Fairly new, by the look of it.

>>18061265
I'm aware of them. Like I mentioned, I sort of sent these people the manuscript without really thinking about it.

>>18061305
>I’m in Australia
As am I. I still try to send it you to places in the northern hemisphere. Try out someone who has won an award for publishing.

>>18061282
Well … it's sort of an entry fee for a contest.

I’ve spent a total of 120 USD on my submission fees to contests and publications since January of 2020, when I began writing seriously. The only money I’ve made is from commissions, which is just the same amount. I’ve never actually made money from being published, despite it happening several times. But that means I’ve barely profited from writing. Man, this writing is rough. Huh?

>>18060759
>I always get decent feedback in my workshops & by my professors & peers

academics are cowards and will never tell you the truth. post it here where the people have nothing to lose by being honest

>>18061474
>academics are cowards and will never tell you the truth
Pretty much this. I passed my course with flying colours and I never did a second draft nor revised any of my works, but then again
>New Zealand University

How do I start thinking in terms of characters instead of just plot structure?

When I look at my characters all I see is empty husks, tools to drive the story forward, no one could like these for who they are.

>>18061544
From which perspective will your readers be seeing the story?

>>18061564
Third person omniscient narrator

>>18061544
Do some basic character building exercises. Grab a sheet of paper and answer these questions on behalf of your protagonist and a character close to them.
>How did character A meet character B?
>What were character A's first impressions of character B?
>What does character A like the most about character B?
>What does character A secretly hate about character B?
>What is one thing the two characters disagree on?
>Which character could outwit the other? Think of an example.
>Which quality does character B possess, which character A is jealous of?
>Does either character look down on the other? Do either of them recognise or acknowledge this?
Do a page for both characters then keep those answers in-mind while writing their interactions as well as situations where one character may be reminded of, or is thinking about, the other.

>>18061578
Lots to play with there.

>>18058079
You have a setting but not much of a story

What internal sturggle do the characters over come? How will you make a plot out of that?

Give me one good reason you even need an unreliable narrator...

>>18061658
You can achieve the same effect by writing in a mystery format and leaving details out or misleading the reader. I've never written an unreliable narrator but I imagine they're just fun to write, that's about it.

>>18061678
To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, most writers can't even handle a mystery at one end of the pen, never mind a mystery at both ends

All I want to write is fanfiction these days, it’s fun

Stalin killed millions to save billions
GRRM killed main characters to save the franchise

>>18061544
Your story should be the tool that drives the characters forward, never the opposite.

>>18061636
These exercises sound good but will they help me come closer to innately understanding what makes a good character, because currently I feel I'd just be mechanically going through the motions.

To give you an analogy of my problem, learning how to draw is split into two initial phases, symbol drawing (depicted left) in which the artist doesn't understand the fundamentals and draws flat and ugly work, and drawing with understanding (depicted right) where the artist knows and uses the fundamentals like form, depth, light and shadows, etc to accurately depict people or objects in 3D, while also being able to add appeal beyond merely copying realism.

Now the symbol drawing artist can learn to copy the ideas of successful drawing without understanding them, and maybe even accurately guess where to add form or shadow to a drawing here and there, and the audience will sometimes be none the wiser, but after a certain point the knowledge needs to "click" so the artist will innately understand what things need to look like and why.

As someone who draws and recently clicked out of the symbol drawing phase, the disorientation and lack of direction I felt while I was symbol drawing feels dangerously close to what I feel now while trying to create and develop characters in writing. I used to look at fantastic drawings and wonder "why is this here, why does this part look like it does, what made the artist put this here, how are they achieving this effect" etc and now even though I still can't draw at those skill levels, I at least understand the full decision-making process and fundamentals that went into those drawings.

>>18061898
Well put anon.

Working on my project currently and it feels good to see it evolve. I know it's cringe, but it's one of these days where I feel hopeful for no reason and I feel like we're all gonna make it. Love you anons.

>>18061925
I hope you get what you want out of life... I know our chances are slim, but we’ll all run into the sunset together on the beaches of Delos

>>18061898
I think you can have a character driven story or a plot driven story... don’t ask me for examples though, I’m retarded.

>>18061925
I know that feel.

>>18061915
I am also an artist. I often see writing/drawing analogies pop up in this thread, which always makes me curious. Do many of us here do art? Is there a correlation between wanting to draw and wanting to write?

>>18061955
I have no idea how to draw and my writing is shit. Maybe there is a correlation.

>>18061915
>will they help me come closer to innately understanding what makes a good character
They've certainly helped me in the past. I'm unsure if they'll help you shape and mold your characters to an objective standard, but regardless you'll understand them better. How do you usually go about writing a narrative? I usually start with setting, then characters, then plot. The plot should follow what your characters are driven to do within the limitations of their setting. Don't be afraid to alter the direction of the narrative if your ideas of a character, especially the protagonist, change. Writing plot first isn't impossible, sometimes you'll have story beats planned out far in advance and you have to guide the characters and events towards those goals. It can make the writing trickier, but that's not always a bad thing.

When I first started writing I used my friends and family as character stand-ins, it was easy to imagine what they'd do in whatever setting I put them in and it made it easier to see my characters as people. I still use the personality types of people I know sometimes, but I've mostly moved beyond that now.

>>18061955
I've never given it an honest try, I was never good at it in school though. I've always been a man of words and I spend a lot of time thinking up story ideas which'll never see the light of day.

>>18061915
Novice newfag here who knows nothing about drawing but starting to write a little. Here is some advice that helped me get a little closer to creating a character I felt was "good".
Give them a goal, put them in a situation that motivates them to achieve that goal and then ask questions like
>What is this person willing to do to achieve this goal?
>Who would they be willing to hurt?
>Are they willing to bend the law/morality to achieve it?
>If faced with a choice, is there something they would give up their goal for?
The goal doesn't have to be relevant for the story/world you've originally envisioned for them, it's just something you'd think they would like to have. These exercises helped a lot in crafting a character's motivations as well as their metaphorical "lines" that they may or may not cross. For me, having these two things is enough of a good starting point to allow me to flesh them out and find a voice for them. They help create a personality, an environment they grew up in and in turn, establish a backstory that will then help form the bones of an "arc" they can go down.

How do I write a villain even more fucked up than the Joker or Judge Holden?

>>18062348
Have them RAPE a woman.

>>18062353
But didn’t both Judge and Joker do that? Judge raped the little girl... and Joker, well...

>>18061773
Some people like to build characters, some like to develop intricate plots (me), some like to describe nothing at all in beautiful prose.

I can see how someone who is strong at writing dialogue and situations, but who doesn’t like character creation, would be drawn to fanfic. Unfortunately (imho) the fanfic community tends toward shit writing and erotic fan content to fulfill an audience of repressed teens. I would LOVE to see more writers who lean toward fanfic write new chapters in classic literature. Give me a new Sherlock Holmes adventure, tell me the story of how the Count of Monte Cristo brought Ali to France, how did Yossarian get drafted in the first place, what does Confederacy of Dunces look like from Myrna’s perspective just getting these insane letters? There’s so much to do, anon, and it could be fantastic practice, just try not to fall into the same rut so many others do.

Also, if any the above exists and i just don’t know about it, link please!

>>18056288
Should always be open to revisions. I won’t ever do a second draft though, maybe for select chapters but for the whole thing would be a waste.

>>18053720
I published something!
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B092VBPC65

>>18061915
I'll just say that if you plan on publishing your book on a consistent basis, then you're going to need to learn when to stop building your characters. Harry Potter is a kid who lives in poor conditions. That's it. The rest of his characterisation is built on in arcs throughout the story. Harry portals into a new world, oh look, a new bully called Draco Malfoy.

Having an intricate backstory that builds the character and gives them motivation off-screen isn't done a lot. I'd even say modern literary fiction is more concerned with exploring characterisation in the moment.

>>18062348
Punish them for every crime while also making them get away with it.

>>18062428
>modern literary fiction is more concerned with exploring characterisation in the moment.
That’s not what I learned at my latest faculty seminar, anon. They said character was overdone and outlived its usefulness.

>>18062426
Woah, this was less shit than I expected but I have no idea how you’re going to make work redundancies interesting. Only read two pages.

My advice: find a market for this on Amazon and write for that audience. The only thing going for Amazon is the ability to sell books to a bunch of readers who want to read the same shit over and again. Otherwise, go the traditional route.

>>18062476
You got 99 cents?
C'mon, become the first other person to ever read it.

>>18062511
Anon, I... might consider it but I have a “not a date” with a 10/10 this week and don’t wanna break my only fifty atm for anything. Sorry, I think beautiful women come first in everything.

>>18053720
>Any progress
I finally wrote the first page to the story that has been rolling around in my head for about 3 years. So that feels good.

>>18062552
>three years to come up with a run on sentence
Bravo 4chan

Wrote the start of a short story tonight. Upon rereading it, I hate it to my core. Of course, when I share other pieces I've written and genuinely love, other people seem to hate them in equal measure. Maybe it works the same way with things I hate. I'll post it here if I finish it, but I'm thinking I'll probably abandon.

>>18062552
What's up with the spacing, autismo?

>>18062552
>fairly
>adverb in your first sentence
NGMI

>>18062556
I never claimed to be a good writer.

>>18062566
I might be retarded, but whats wrong with it?

>>18062581
Is that a bad thing? I never heard about not using an adverb in a first sentence.

>>18062594
>adverb
It’s some creative writing 101 rule by Stephen fucking King. Don’t listen to him. Brush up on your punctuation and grammar rules though. You use too many “buts” and clunky multi-clausal sentences.

>>18062594
Anon adverbs in general should be avoided like the plague, and you have one right at the start. You only get to make a first impression once, and you chose to come off like someone who uses adverbs.
By God you people are dogs. I will carry on as usual.

>>18062581
Focus on adverbs is a fast litmus test for talentless hacks looking for an objective metric that helps them feel better about their own strict adherence to some doctrine dreamed up by other, smarter, similarly talentless hacks for that literal, selfsame purpose. I fucking hate you drones. You're everywhere on the internet where people talk about writing, appealing to some imaginary consensus that says THIS THING BAD.

>>18062606
ngmi

>>18062606
>You use too many “buts” and clunky multi-clausal sentences
How should I cut back on them? That is how Ive written forever, and I am not completely sure how to not do it anymore. And what could I use instead of but?

>>18062617
Go gently back to your genre fiction, faggot.

>>18062608
Enjoy never getting published, I guess.

>>18062607
Whats the problem with adverbs? I like them.

>>18062635
They're haram.

>>18062627
He looks like a Who from Dr. Seuss

>>18062642
But is there anything actually wrong with them?

>>18062458
I'd say it's still there as part of a Venn diagram which includes whatever literary trend is current.

>>18062633
I don't give the slightest shit about getting published. I care about writing well and often.

>>18062627
What's an Adverb?

>>18062665
No, it's a meme.

>>18062624
Keep sentences clear. They should be fun to read. Stop using conjunctions willy nilly... you usually only need to use “and” in a list or to bring together two clauses that might have better meaning when connected. I doubt you ever need to bring together three or more clauses unless you were going for tiresome reading. Try holding your breath for each sentence. That’s as much as a reader will pay attention. If you’re struggling after not getting to the full stop, it’s an awful and overdone sentence...

Otherwise, focus on conveying one idea, premise, or notion a sentence. Use “but” when there’s a contrast to be made, exception, or something similar. You could also change it up with “however,” “yet,” “regardless,” “nonetheless,” “even so,” etc.

>>18062671
This desu. Publishing isn’t everything. Pick up the latest YA fantasy “novel” to see how dreadful contemporary publishing is.

>>18062682
I just want to add that these are "the rules" as you'd explain them to someone who has only a partial command of them. There's a lot of fun in breaking them, but you need to gain an intuitive sense for what is common and conventional before you'll even begin to have an awareness of what goes on beyond right vs. wrong.

>>18062717
>an experienced, talented person can break these rules
Completely agree. But, as you say, an artist can only break rules that he understands completely. Picasso made childlike and naive art that broke the rules. However, he already had experience as a conventional painter first. Writing is similar, but we’re also dealing with having to gauge attention for hours on end. Who wants to read experimental trash written by someone who barely understands language?

>>18062682
Alright, that makes some sense. Do you think that my first page was bad enough to warrant a total rewrite, or should I just keep that in mind going forward?

>>18062754
Rewrite it. In fact, go read more and come back when you’ve got favourite writers or styles, then emulate that. Your ideas aren’t necessarily bad but you’re not understanding how to entertain or dazzle a reader yet. Writing is a two-way street, always.

Try to find the dependent clause and the independent clause in this sentence, anons.

>>18061652
last night i went over the plot and made a few changes, instead of an overly religious one the character is obsessed with being the best at his craft even with no one to really compete with. I dont have much set in stone but i think i would like to have the story centralized around the mental problems that would arise
but then again nothing is set in stone

>>18062771
So, Im currently trying to rewrite it, and it feels like a lot of what I am writing is just really simplistic. For instance, I just wrote
>he got up out of bed and walked to his shower
Is it just me or is that too simple. I can understand not wanting a sentence to take up half a page, but I feel like I am really kversimplifying everything

>>18063082
Maybe it’s oversimplified because you hid behind wordiness and overwrought verbiage. Your ideas weren’t even compelling enough to warrant being read or written. Come up with better action or premises.

>>18062820
Uhm.
>independent
“I’ll be forgotten”
>dependent
“After I die”

?

>>18063123
Winner, winner chicken dinner...

>>18063119
You know, that is probably true. But f I have to use overly complicated phrasing and verbiage to even write, then I will write the most convoluted prose ever written, because I want to write this story. It will be complete and total shit, but at least I will have finally written this story.

>>18063157
Or go off 4chan, read more, do your homework, and write the most epic sage imaginable... because your imagination moves beyond calling attention tot the mundanity of the everyday in a satirical “average Joe” figure that has been done before, and better, in novels you haven’t bothered to read.

>>18062348
>more fucked up than judge holden
I think of the scene where the judge plays with a baby, and you know he's going to kill the baby, and the other characters probably do too, but nobody says anything. Then he does, and Toadvine puts a gun to his head, but he doesn't shoot. Then later, the last time we see Toadvine, he's joining the judge. I think you pull it off by showing their effect on secondary characters. If they're going to be the main antagonist of your novel, one by one they can pick off other characters - not literally just shooting them, but making them fall to "evil" (chaos, war, darkness; however they philosophize about it) - before the final confrontation with the protagonist. By that time, your reader should know that your protagonist knows that they aren't going to make it out of that confrontation, not without losing something. It should be dread, not excitement, setting the tone, regardless of whether or not good or evil wins. Batman "wins" but Harvey Dent, the story's real protagonist, is lost, and the man loses first morally (prostitute) and then completely (the toilet.) I think having a "disposable protagonist," like TDK and No Country for Old Men, can help make it more digestible than something like Blood Meridian.

>>18063177
Nah, I want to write this. The guy isnt even the main purpose, the goal is to eventually write about a dead bird that I saw one time.

>>18063177
Also, if course other people have done this kind of story before and have done it much better. I just want to write this because I feel like it. Im not claiming to make some grand social commentary that no one has ever heard before. I am literally just writing a story

>>18063200
That’s a great answer, and you’ve put it into perspective more. My villain does the same as Judge does (gruesome violence, philosophising about why we need violence, sexually obscene) in some respects but he doesn’t chip away at others’ morals as much as Judge (which you’ve deftly described). I’ll definitely try to keep this in mind.

>>18063229
>>18063201
Then why post it here and leave yourself open to feedback if you don’t care about an audience, tradition, or your own individual talent? You’ve completely severed yourself from the important things in creating art; instead, you wish to mentally masturbate. Good day.

>>18062380
There's a lot of that around, anon. It's just covered in dreck. But the dreck is easy to filter out, specially with the newfangled search engines. Top rated and Top hits are basic; also good authors will always have a novel-length work somewhere, so setting search to >100k words and Completed will usually yield decent results. After that, one can usually tell by the first 2 chapters if the author is NGMI...

How do people manage to construct perspectives from the point of view of historical figures in historical fiction/alt-history?

>>18064070
fuck i made a redundant statement

I'm very unsure of my prose, never had anyone read it. What book should I begin with to get some knowledge there? I tried on becoming a novelist but it didn't seem exactly what I was looking for

>>18064242
Well, the answer to your problem is to post your writing.

>>18053720
>be me
>quit first attempt at a first draft after 90 000+ words because it's shit by every possible metric
>try again
>new idea for novel
>manage almost 18 000 words in a bit over a month
>it's also shit
>sit down to write
>three hours later
>65 words written
>all shit
>literally swearing out loud at myself
Feels bad. Don't know why I even bother.

>>18064517
It's not up to you to determine what is and isn't shit. If it makes you feel better, almost everything ever written is shit, so the bar for acceptable is pretty low.

>>18064517
>1st draft is shit
>have autistic breakdown and throw it all in the trash
>instead of, say, editing a little bit, getting other people's opinions, etc.
retard
>>18064544
>almost everything ever written is shit
this anon hits the heart of the matter. there is so much garbage that's been published over the years its baffling that someone could look at their writing and think its completely unsalvagable. 90k words in the trash. I reiterate: retard

>>18064688
I didn't trash it, I just but it on hold. The latter chapters were better, since I wrote them years later than my cringe ultrashit early chapters. Problem is, the prose is so bad and the plot so meandering that it will take years and years and years to turn it into anything even worth beta-reading.

My autistic bitching aside, my second attempt at a novel is a lot better right off the bat, though fuck knows if I'll ever finish it.

>>18062552
>John stepped out, dried himself, and checked his height. Yup, still exactly 5’10”.

Wait, does this guy have some sort of measure on his bathroom wall? Don’t write something if you can’t actually visualize it.

It’s easy to say “John rushed out the door, hot coffee in hand. The stairs were slick so he held onto the railing while he searched his coat pockets for his keys” but you actually have to imagine it to realize he’d need a third hand to be holding the coffee too.

If your point is to say this dude’s so insane he installed a bar to check his height every morning (despite it being unchanged for years) then I’m listening. Tell me more about his device.

I can’t write unless I’m under pressure. I decided to take a Creative Writing class as a filler, and because I felt it would be interesting. Every time I leave the bulk of my writing until last minute. This gives me no time to revise, and usually leads to a rushed and unsatisfactory ending. Writing in my free time just feels hopeless and draining, but when I can do it, I really like it.

>>18062518
If you only have fifty dollars to your name you have bigger problems bud...

>>18065295
So, venmo me sweaty?

How do I, as a common retard understand what's good writing and what isn't?

>no motivation past few days because I swore off coffee because it made me a zombie

>had coffee this morning
>got work down enthusiastically

But stop after that. Need to remember just to drink it at the start of the writing day and then drink tea later on.

>>18065432
Read it. Does it flow like things you like to read flow? Can you picture the scene in your mind? Did you show it to someone who doesn’t care about your feelings and did they like it?

>>18065473
Me and nicotine. I just chew the gum, that’s healthier... right?

>>18065492
I see, it's things like this that make writing good. Appreciate the advice anon.

>>18065432
You've never read anything and thought: "Wow this is really well put, I wish I wrote that."
Because that's what good writing is.

I wrote 5,000 words today. I hope when I read them tomorrow they aren’t shit.

>>18065535
Of course I have, it's just that I feel like there needs to be objectivity to what good writing is. Surely it's not as simple as things being purely subjective, at least those are my thoughts. In the end, things I like should, and is more important than what everyone enjoys but I always thought writing is objective when it comes to the level of writing we see. I'm esl so if that doesn't make sense let me know.

>>18065586
I did similar.... when I read it, it had a bunch of errors and inconsistencies. Don’t be upset if that happens.

>>18065586
>5 000 words in one day
You are a god, anon. Teach me your powers.
>t. every 50 words is a struggle

>>18065646
Just keep going, you’ll fix it later.

>>18065591
Nothing is ever objective, dumb frogposter. But if enough people agree on something, then at least there has to be some merit to it.
Besides writing is about doing what YOU like. How are you supposed to convince anyone else to like something if you can't be passionate about it yourself?
You could talk all day about form and phrasing but in the end, if it works, it works.

>>18062627
Stephen King is a serial plagiarist.
King’s first published novel “Carrie” (1974) ripped off a couple key scenes directly from William Peter Blatty’s highly successful “The Exorcist” (book 1971, movie 1973).
“The Shining” heavily ripped off both “The Plague” by Camus and “The Inn” by de Maupassant. Stop when this sounds familiar: in the short story “The Inn” the two characters are holed up in an old inn high up in the Swiss Alps. They get snowed in for the winter, one of them starts to go crazy, and his family, who go up there later after the spring thaw to find out what happened, find their relative has gone insane, and they never find out what happened to his companion, presumably murdered.
King’s college roommate George McLeod once wrote a short story about childhood friends who go looking for a dead body which he later accused King of plagiarizing for his 1985 novella “The Body” and the “Stand By Me” movie in 1986.
He pretends to be this great writer, but he grew up reading horror comics for inspiration and ripping off other people's ideas.

>>18065686
Hmm, honestly I agree with that. Thanks for the talk my anon friend.

>>18065744
Not to mention his writing is horrid, for someone who likes to talk about writing so much.

>>18065744
How is the shining supposed to have ripped off the Plague? I see no similarities whatsoever

>>18066557
Being stuck in a town and going insane with it...

>>18066725
In the Shining they are stuck in a hotel, not a town. But that point pales in comparison to a much bigger one - that nobody goes insane in the Plague. It is a powerful story of humanistic values. I could expound at length as to why it is such a silly comparison, but perhaps the best is Rambert, the writer who is the closest thing to a Jack Torrance-figure you'll find in Camus. Rambert starts going a little stir-crazy (though out of love for his fiancee, stuck outside the town, rather than claustrophobia - the town of The Plague is hot, balmy, and on the sea, and at worst the inhabitants dispel boredom through swimming, walking and other such leisure activities). Yet when given the chance to be smuggled out, Rambert instead decides to forego reunion with his love and risk his life to work tirelessly in the public health efforts ongoing in the diseased town. Through the actions of Rambert - and Rieux, Tarrou, Joseph Grand, even Father Paneloux - we see a banding together, a unification, the efforts of individuals compounded into a magnificent collective even in the face of death. I'm sorry, but to compare it to the shining is absolutely ludicrous and makes me think you (or the person who first made the comparison) never read the book. They aren't even superficially similar.

>>18066901
I read it once in highschool and don’t remember it at all. I didn’t make the first comparison. You seem to be a Camus fanboy though.

>>18066916
Don't be so insecure

>>18066921
Well, the fact I was a Camus fanboy for all of highschool, but only ever understood The Stranger and The Rebel, means I’m obviously lacking in knowledge. I gave up liking him when people made fun of me for it.

>>18066916
Not a Camus fanboy so much as a reading fanboy. There are far too few of us on /lit/ nowadays. The Plague does hold a special place in my heart as it compelled me to make one of the few truly selfless decisions in my life, and I will always remember it fondly and wistfully in that context.

I'm trying to incorporate a single magical/mystical ability as a central plot point within my novel, it's not being introduced until about midway through and I'm not sure how to present it to the protagonist without it feeling contrived. One of the antagonists gifts the ability to the protagonist who he's currently keeping captive in order to manipulate him further, I've got most of the details ironed out except for how the protagonist is given the ability. The novel, so far, isn't magic heavy so I don't want it to come out of left-field. I was thinking of doing something simple, the protagonist could consume or ingest something given to him by his captor, yet the gift is supposed to be very unique and as such the method of receiving it should be unique also, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

>>18067159
It would depend what the gift is? What is it?

>>18061915
How long have you been drawing?

>>18067168
I don't want to give too much away, like others here I'm quite reserved when it comes to sharing ideas I'm really keen to work on. But the ability is essentially a respawn mechanic for the protagonist. I know it sounds like a strange situation, but it works in context and aligns perfectly with the antagonist's goals.

>>18067235
>But the ability is essentially a respawn mechanic for the protagonist.
Literally has been done to death.

>>18067242
And now it is respawning in anon's deconstruction of the phoenix protagonist genre.

>>18067242
I'm simplifying the description, I think my take on it is rather interesting. If it doesn't turn out how I want it I'll have to revise that aspect of the story, but so far so good other than how he receives it.

>>18067277
You could go with breathing on him, which has Biblical allusions. It's certainly more mystical than a drink or some other such device which raises more questions than answers and seems artificial IMO. Or a kiss?

Is there any writing program where I can open one file and it's kind of like a google doc, where it's a whole bunch of 'tabs' in one file?

>>18067298
I like your ideas anon, I've come up with something myself just now also. I think I'll sit on it for a bit and perhaps combine our thoughts, cheers anon. Are you stalling on any of your work currently?

>>18067358
No worries anon, I wish you all the best with your work. Not stalling, it's about 1am here. I've just started a new project and I'm actually thrilled with what I've written so far (about 2k words). Just need to replicate that like 40 times and I'll have a brilliant novel. Easy right?!?!

Is that really not possible in MS Word?

>>18067354
Scrivener

>>18067242
So weird why people don’t want to share...

>>18067464
Nobody with any sense posts any details of their writing here. The odds are that literally hundreds of people go through these threads. The vast, vast majority will never, ever succeed as writers. The only people here are teenagers and young adults who want the status, or the identity, or the recognition of being a writer but don't actually write. If you post an excerpt and it's bad they'll shred it to feel superior. If it's okay, they'll still shred it because they hate and fear that someone else has actually written something, which they are incapable of doing; they will more than likely steal copious amounts from any excerpt you post, all the same. Most of the advice is meaningless, the blind leading the blind; the rare grains of good advice are the same banal platitudes found with a cursory google search and half a desire to take writing seriously. 'Get the first draft done'. 'Edit later'. 'Avoid passive voice'. 'Set aside time to write.' What do you expect? The absolute best thing I did for my writing was leaving these dreadful generals.

>>18067235
If the mechanic involves messing with time/chronology, it opens plenty of doors. Of you’re trying to make a superpower fit in a non-magic world, consider making it a device/token found (perhaps even dropped by a future or past self, or something that makes sense of something impossible the antagonist pulled off earlier)

If it’s a power, maybe it’s something tge protagonist always had...he’d just never died before so wouldn’t know (or perhaps it has happened before and he didn’t understand how he didn’t die then)

>>18067537
>If you post an excerpt and it's bad they'll shred it to feel superior. If it's okay, they'll still shred it because they hate and fear that someone else has actually written something
get over yourself dude
it's just fun to criticize other people's stuff. it's nothing personal. did the mean old anons on /wg/ hurt your feelings when they told you that you would never be the next Faulkner, the next Nabokov or the next Joyce?

>>18067561
I am forever astound by the fact that, they are anons, out there, who, for whatever reason, take themselves seriously.

>>18067464
I share when asked to desu

>>18067561
>you would never be the next Faulkner, the next Nabokov or the next Joyce
I don’t understand this reference. Was it something a pretentious anon said?

>>18067546
Cheers anon.

>>18067583
So do I.

>>18067594
Yes.

New thread

>>18067621

>>18067406
That is exactly what I wanted, thanks.

>>18067561
Nope, I have simply been in these threads long enough to see actual people steal actual words, phrases and characters here. About a year ago there was an anon who was writing a short story about a duck hunt in England, which had a really clever metaphor to do with what the narrator did fighting in a past war. Anyway, the anon posted his work, he'd get pats on the back, constructive advice, a few naysayers but generally positive. Then another anon swoops in and shows actual proof that he cribbed that metaphor, copied some sentences exactly, and sent the plagiarised story to a literary journal where it was accepted.

On at LEAST 10 other occasions anons have confessed to stealing work in here.

I have never, ever posted my work in these threads and never will. Generally I use them to scare myself into writing, so I don't end up as one of the perpetually mediocre wishful-thinkers who post here, the sort of milquetoast pseuds who convince themselves thinking and talking about writing is the same as writing - or, worse yet, that the stilted drivel they fitfully produced over a 3-day 'inspiration' 5 weeks ago qualifies them, somehow, as the writer they long to be.

>>18067561
t. Newfag. Or one of the pretenders that guy mentioned.

>>18061658
because it suits what your writing
>but its cringe
yeah writing is cringe
dont be a cuck. if it's supposed to be in your writing put it in, if not don't. it's really that easy

>>18067637
>On at LEAST 10 other occasions anons have confessed to stealing work in here.
This is a dumb reason not to share your work here. An actual reason is that you DO NOT want your work being traced back to here.

>>18053814
if you write something with this tone, you might have something on your hands. Otherwise, keep trying anon, even though you post this all the time and I enjoy reading it. Cheers.

>>18060360
It's my favorite pasta

>>18067406
Soivener, amiright?

>>18060360
>>18068457
gets em every time. kek
>>18068441