/lit/ - Literature

>whoever offereth violence to you, offer ye the like violence to him, and fear God, and know that God is with those who fear Him
More based than turn the other cheek ngl

>>18056613
Unironically makes me want to read the Koran

It's like Christianity but dumber

Did we confirm that pewdiepie is muslimanon, or was it just a meme?

>>18056643
Christianity but masculine*

>>18056637
Please do so as I'm not sure if OP hasn't misquoted something.

>>18057125
It's from the J. M. Rodwell translation, mate. Nothing is misquoted :D

>>18056643
It’s like Christianity but better. Tawhid is the truth

Islam is true, and that makes /lit/ and /pol/ seethe

>>18057521
correct

>arguing over which sect of judaism is better
abrahamists are retarded, especially the non-jewish ones

>>18057579
show nose

>>18057521
this.
>>18057579
shut up schlomo

>>18057587
>>18057846
I'm not the one worshipping the jewish god, retards. Go argue over who's the best jew slave somewhere else. The only reason I said
>especially the non-jewish ones
is because it's their own god they worship, you christians and muslims are just the useful idiots.

>>18057863
Muslims are anti-Jews. Atheists are the useful idiots in the West.

>>18057863
you don't really know what you're talking about, and it's funny.

>>18057871
Then why do they worship the jewish god and do the jews' work for them? Muzzies are the true golems.
Atheists are retarded hedonists, sure. But at least they don't pretend to "hate jews" while doing the jew's bidding like abrahamists, they actually really love em.

>>18057892
No I do, you're just in denial over worshipping the jewish god, doing jewish customs, claiming jews as your ancestors. If I were a jew, I'd hate you too for stealing my faith and claiming it to be universal.

>>18056650
based pewds

>>18056613
Reading a translation? Never gonna make it, anon. You are not reading the way the Qu'ran should be read.

>>18059331
Sorry mate, I don't want to get into it. Just to understand the bare bones.

>>18057521
True

>>18056650
Based

>>18057521
All Muslims say this, but when asked why it is true, it is they who seethe, dilate, cope, etc., etc.

>>18056613
Kill all the Muslims! Kill all of the believers! Religion is an IQ test! Kill those who fail the test!

>>18059446
Atheism is tied directly with secular humanism and can't do this. It's the cuck's worldview of choice.

>>18059452
How, retard?

>>18059611
By association. Look at all the compaints by the New Atheist bugmen: noooo you can't stone women, noooooo you can't tell them not have abortions, nooo my faggoterinos gaysinos, nooooo my liberty and human rights. It's not possible. Atheists lean left by consensus.

>>18056613
What is the best study edition of the Quran?

>>18059626
Okay, so all Muslims are terrorists as well. Glad we agree.

>>18060002
That makes them even more based. Peak Warrior archetype.

>>18060027
That's subjective though. A lefty cuck can pull up the card that a sissy femboy is the peak male archetype.

>>18056613
>And if you meet those who have disbelieved then strike their necks

>>18060063
And atheists would be there to applaud him like the cucks that they are.

>>18060073
That's not really an argument for/against why one archetype is/isn't the peak of the male condition.

>>18060100
I never said the warrior archetype was the peak of the male condition.

I'm going to start my own religion.

>>18060115
t. Ron L. Hubbard

>>18060106
Okay, so I take it that there is no argument for why the terrorist archetype is any better than the sissy femboy. I for one think that the femboy archetype is better because it causes less suffering and maximises well-being for everyone than if all males seeked to become terrorists.

>>18060139
Sounds like something an atheist would say. You perfectly embody the Cuckold archetype. Nice job.

>>18060150
I'm not even an atheist, I'm agnostic. But I'm still not hearing any argument for why terrorists are, in any way, shape, or form, better than the femboy male.

>>18060166
>I'm not even an atheist, I'm agnostic.
Ahhh the classic cope card. Nice. You're traditional alright.
> But I'm still not hearing any argument for why terrorists are, in any way, shape, or form, better than the femboy male.
You brought both subjects into the jolly conversation, so you should know. Something about pleasure being the best thing for all.

All I said originally is what gaytheists lean left and wouldn't dare to kill people. Much less foreigners.

>>18060139
>I for one think that the femboy archetype is better because it causes less suffering and maximises well-being for everyone than if all males seeked to become terrorists.

>>18060195
>All I said originally is what gaytheists lean left and wouldn't dare to kill people. Much less foreigners.

That's not what you originally said though, you argued that a terrorist is "even more based," than just a normal Muslim, which would be untrue if femboy Muslims are better than terrorist Muslims because they maximize well-being--and if well-being is the measure with which we determine who's better, a terrorist Muslim would be worse than a normal Muslim because the latter would maximize well-being more than the former, therefore, a terrorist wouldn't be "based."

It is originally what a I said before you brought terrorists and faggots. See: >>18059452

>>18060269
>>18060281

>>18060269
Well-being is an arbitrary unit of measure. But terrorists can also bring well-being to their commnunities and boost morale. Again, warrior archetype. Did you just read Harris yesterday or some shit? Furthermore being based is not about what's morally right. It's about not giving a fucking and doing as you please. In the basedmeter, terrorists score higher than pillow-biting faggots. I don't care about either one btw.

>>18060281
Okay sure, I can drop that point. I'm fine with getting away with you admitting that atheists being secular humanists is merely an association fallacy, and that terrorist Muslims are worse than femboys.

>>18060326
>and that terrorist Muslims are worse than femboys.
They aren't. All depends on the lens.

>>18060320
Yeah, but terrorism would reduce as much, if not more well-being, than it would bring well-being. I was arguing for what would maximize well-being, not just bringing any well-being. I went under the notion that if something is better than one thing, then the worse thing cannot be based, as seem in the post you're replying to.

>>18060347
I've established why they are and I've heard no argument against it. My case stands and the opposition fails due to burden of rejoinder. You can say it just depends on the lens, but I've settled with a lens with which to look at the matter, and you either have to attack the lens, or accept the lens and attack the argument I've presented--it will take us nowhere if we're gonna sit here and cry about "it just depends on perspective," come to think of it, this sounds more like what a lefty cuck would say.

Just started reading Qutb's exegesis of the Qur'an and it's absolutely top tier. Even people who have no interest in Islam would love it, absolutely magnificent even in translation

>The present sūrah follows, in general, the line of this part of the Qur’ān, inviting the human heart to faith, urging man to awake, meditate and follow the path of righteousness. It uses different kinds of emphasis, connotation and rhythm, but constitutes, nevertheless, a single harmonious piece of music, varying in tones but maintaining the same cadence. Some of its scenes impart a touch of quiet beauty and a light, pleasant rhythm. This is particularly evident in its opening, which describes certain charming aspects of the universe and provides at the same time an aura of worship and prayer: “By the dawn, by the ten nights, by that which is even and that which is odd, by the night as it journeys on!”

Or

>The rhythm of the sūrah is one of violent movement which leaves nothing in its place. Everything is thrown away, smashed or scattered. The movement is so violent that it excites and frightens. It alters every familiar situation and shakes people’s hearts violently so that they feel deprived of both shelter and reassurance. In such a violent destructive storm the human heart is no more than a little feather, blown in every direction. No protection and, indeed, no safety can be found except what is granted by God, the Eternal. Thus, the rhythm of the sūrah has, on its own, the effect of pulling man’s heart and soul away from everything associated with safety and security, in order to seek peace, safety and protection with God.

>The sūrah is also a gem of striking images drawn from the universe in both its present beautiful condition, which is familiar to us, and its condition on the Day of Resurrection when every familiar thing is changed beyond recognition. The sūrah is, moreover, rich in fine expressions which add colour to the images portrayed. As the sūrah is so short, the rhythm, images and expressions combine together to produce a very strong and lasting effect. Had it not been for the fact that the sūrah contains some words which are no longer familiar to us today, I would have preferred not to comment on it. Its rhythm and images leave a far stronger effect than any human interpretation can aspire to achieve.

>>18059694
A translation of Ibn Kathir's tafsir

>>18060368
I don't think you understand the concept of based at all, mate. And well-being is an arbitrary measuremen, just like any other..
>>18060410
Not really. Well-being is something so material and bugman-like that a faggot liberal like Steven Pinker would support. Terrorism boosts morale and social cohesion among the radical Islamist community. It allows them to expand their cultural dominance in the West. And thus, they are based. Meanwhile, the individual homosexual expands degeneracy among a few twisted-minded creeps none of which will reproduce. One is about victory, the other about defeat. Victory=based, defeat = cringe.

>>18060520
Interesting fact: conversion to Islam in America went up dramatically after 9/11. It's actually empirically proven that terrorists attacks bolster people's interest in Islam which always results in more converts, even if they originally are interested only out of enmity or morbid curiosity

>>18056613
Quran is shit literature.

>>18057109
Dont see that many muslims working the harbour or construction. So not really manly.

>>18060635
it has its moments, like the bible.

>>18060644
I said masculine, not slave-like.

>>18056643
Islam is the hip-hop of the abrahamic religions.

>>18060776
Islam is metal
Christianity is rock n roll
Judaism is ....

>>18060795
Christianity is dad rock to be precise. Extra boomer core

>>18060863
What would Judaism be ?

>>18060870
Mississippi Delta Blues

>>18060870
Vegas showtunes

>>18060870
Elevator Muzak

>>18060648
Lol is Islam literally a cult opposed to every kind of masculine form of Labour.

I literally posted this on several sites and forums, going back 10 years why there are so few muslims in masculine professions like construction, logistics or harbour work and I always get this value reversal.

Yeah mate sucking the hookah and taking in welfare is peak masculinity.

A professor

>I grew up in a rather well-to-do family, with a strong Catholic tendency. I was immersed very early in religion

>I also became an extremely conservative man from a religious point of view, this probably due to the fact that Christianity was becoming an increasingly modern religion, changing its codes and traditions to please secular and progressive society (this is actually the case since Vatican II).

>I converted on April 14, 2021, in the middle of Ramadan. I converted, not because Islam is a religion of ‘peace and love’. I did not join the religion out of feelings or emotion, but because it is the truth.

https://twitter.com/Pr_Phillipe/status/1383092425275678723?s=19

>>18060795
Islam is basically rap music, its stupid and violent and appeals to the dumb masses. Oh yeah both are all about sex.

>>18060895
>menial servitude is manly

That said, pic related was in construction, that's where his fortune came from

>>18060795
Islam is basically rap music: stupid, violent, sexual and popular with the dim masses.

>>18060895
Yes.
>>18060902
ywnbaw

>>18060899
Based

>>18060912
Yes mate service and duty to your nation and your family, through hard working conditions is manly. Its basically the working class version of being a knight (knight means servant) or a samurai.

You dont understand this because you are a slave.

>>18060923
I'm a construction worker (and Muslim) myself. I'm not going to argue with you but I will say I think your idea of construction workers is a bit, er. Glamorous

>>18060913
Christianity us the one popular with the dim masses.

>>18056613
It's the Quran, not Koran.

>>18061105
It can be both.

>>18060902
Rock and pop are also about sex

>>18061105
The letter ق doesn't exist in English. Q and K are both approximations. Lawrence of Arabia transliterated it as G sometime.

>>18061105
Muhammad, Mohamet, Mehmet, Mohammed or Mohamed?

>>18060948
>I'm a construction worker (and Muslim) myself. I'm not going to argue with you but I will say I think your idea of construction workers is a bit, er. Glamorous
I over did it, sure, but my argument stays, the main reason muslim nations fail is because they dont think work equals salvation.

>>18061171
Baphomet

>>18061171
Do double Ms serve a purpose in English?

>>18061171
محمد, just four letters in Arabic


>>18061183
Islam stresses the obligation to work for a living but devotion to work over worship has always been something regarded as negative. In pursuit of money people throw themselves into their careers often at the expense of giving proper time to late night prayer or reading from the book of Allah. They could live on much less and could often work less to devote more hours to prayer or scripture

>>18061192
Based

>>18056613
jfc at least make the cover respectable retarded kuffar

>>18060899
based and haqqpileld

>>18061169
Q is the transliteration. G can be used for some dialects as well. K would be used for a kaf.

>>18056637
I've read the Quran and it's super boring. The narrative is all mixed up because the chapters are ordered by length rather than chronology and it doesn't have the varying types of literary styles like the Bible does. It's just a very long paraphrase of the Old Testament with some new shit thrown in by Mohammad every now and then.

>>18061406
Q is a transliteration. K with a dot under it is what was formerly used by academics. Q is nothing like ق really (which is a kind of k). There is no standard transliteration of Arabic hence we see azan and adhan as two spelling of the same word. There is no way to distinguish ث and ذ in English (let alone ظ) because they are both spelled th. Sometimes z is used which is of course misleading as it can also be ز or stand for ظ. Dh is sometimes used for ذ to distinguish it from ث but then it is also often used to distinguish ض from د or also ظ. And س and ص obviously not distinct in English spelling

What I'm saying is transliteration of Arabic is a headache in English and there are multiple ways to do it, but since all are misleading, none is considered more valid or standard, just a matter of vogue like Muhammad verses the older use of Mohammed

>>18059331
This dumb meme had existed even before I was born. Give me three verses that have such nuances and complexity in original quranic rabic that translations would always give poor meanings.

>>18061569
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOZS4ZoRY8

>>18056613
White boys larping as Muslims because they cant get laid.

>>18062571
You're implying that being muslim isn't a repellant

>>18062582
No, he is saying white converts are incels who gave up and now they have an excuse to live separately from women

>>18062571
Larpers are hypocrites.

>>18062571
>projection

>>18057521
Based

>>18060899
What a lad

>>18063943
based

>>18063943
Islam evolved, is he saying islam is not a religion?

>>18056650
Context? Was he going through the Qur'an or something?

>>18060002
Assymetrical warfare is a result of imperialism.

>>18064550
evolution isn't the same thing as selling out

>>18064550
I think he is correct. Could you qualify what you mean? Saying Islam evolved would not be an agreeable statement to most Muslims.

>>18064807
The guy he is responding to it lambasting Islam for not evolving and he's saying based

>>18063943
>Okay Islam was fairly modern for its era but that was over 1500 years ago. Furthermore innovation is impossible if we follow scripture, Islam will never be progressive if it is stuck in antiquated precepts
>A religion which "evolves" is no longer a religion

>>18064982
Bid'ah (innovation [in doctrine or practice]) is literally the word for heresy in Islam

>>18056643
Based

>>18065019
Not literally. There are two kinds of bid'ah, the one you didn't mention is not heretical and neither sunnah nor haram.

>>18065093
That would be bid'ah not in doctrine or practice

>>18064891
The change/evolution most obvious was the change of the central and sacred city in Islam, from Jerusalem to Mecca.
A pious muslim would say the change was in times of Momo.
A lot of historians say it was the Abbasids who made the change.
But it is change. An easily one to spot.

>>18065536
The change is in the Quran.

>>18061183
>I over did it, sure, but my argument stays, the main reason muslim nations fail is because they dont think work equals salvation.
It's a faulty argument based on ignorance of Islam
>Indeed We have created man (to live) in hard struggle.[90:4]

>>18065846
show me the verses

>>18066308
2:144-150. The People of the Book (Jews) as is mentioned now pray a different direction than the Muslims. Previously they prayed the same direction (Jerusalem) but now the Muslims were commanded to face al-masjid al-haram (the Ka'aba). Turning the face in the sky is a reference to Muhammad ﷺ longing to pray that way. He never liked praying toward Jerusalem and while in Mecca he would stand so that he faced Jerusalem with the Ka'aba in front of him when he prayed. After moving to Medina, he no longer could and missed facing the Ka'aba. Allah says he recognized it and changed the direction but the main purpose is to distinguish Muslims from Jews so it is clear Islam is not a sect of Judaism

>>18066386
>worships the jewish god, worships jewish prophets, entire belief based on an alteration of judaism
>islam is not a sect of judaism
Hmmm

>>18066386
>(the Ka'aba)

Exactly, the kaaba is not named in that verse.

srs question for muslims ITT how does the intercession of Muhammad and the black stone on Judgment Day not go against Tawhid? (google these hadith they are sahih)

>>18060899
He's like me but in the reverse
Muslim to Christian (discerning RC or EO)

>>18066486
If you're saying al-masjid al-haram isn't the Ka'aba then you will have an interesting time deciphering all the verses about the rites of Hajj

>>18066540
Which aspect of Tawheed do they go against? Praying for someone else is not considered shirk as far as I know

>>18066588
>If you're saying al-masjid al-haram isn't the Ka'aba then you will have an interesting time deciphering all the verses about the rites of Hajj

That's the point.
Quran is basically a gibberish and hadiths are just a guess about what it says.

>>18066588
Ive heard Muslims say its shirk when Christians pray to Mary so I'm just asking. I'm not that knowledgeable

>>18066618
Plus it seems the Quran is against intercession http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/creed/abdulwahab/kt1-chap-15.htm

>>18066637
Huh nvm I just read that and it answered my question kek

>>18066554
>(discerning RC or EO)
I'm roman catholic, I mean an honest one, not a traditionalist larper.
Both churches are, actually, one and same Church at the end of the day. Both had the same apostolic legacy and both stands the same fundamental Truth.
Take your time, read and know the people and place where you have to go every Sunday. Know your choices and pick the one where you know you are more comfortable. That's all.

>>18066554
As a convert from Orthodoxy to Islam the idea that someone would say the truth isn't Tawheed but eating Allah is very difficult for me to credit. It's a pagan mystery practice

>>18057521
>0 islam nations that aren’t shitholes
Checks out

>>18066695
Thank you anon for the respectful reply
>>18066723
I would say the Eucharist has its roots in the old testament

>>18066780
Buy not eating Allah
http://legacy.owensboro.kctcs.edu/crunyon/e261c/06-Plato/greek_mystery_cults.htm

>>18066799
https://catholicexchange.com/9-ways-the-eucharist-is-hidden-in-the-old-testament
In the end this comes down to which book (The Quran or Gospels) is more reflective of what Jesus taught. I'd argue given the fact the gospels were written far sooner they most likely reflect His teaching more accurately

>>18066841
If you are going to argue from a purely secular perspective, presuming God has no hand in these affairs, then there is no reason to ascribe particular value to the Gospels as they were produced by Greeks who did not consider it lying to put words in someone else's mouth if you regarded them highly

>>18066868
>If you are going to argue from a purely secular perspective, presuming God has no hand in these affairs
It is not really purely secular. If Allah had a hand in these affairs surely he would've at least protected a group of true believers long enough that we could seem them in history? There is nothing wrong with applying a historical approach to determine whether something is a revelation from God or not if I have ability to Reason because of God

>>18066868
Gospels and Epistles were written when there were still people who knew Jesus. If the New Testament had falsified the teachings of Jesus we would know it. Oh wait, we have extra-canonical gospels and writings and they were actually denounced. And on the other hand, the texts in which they all were in agreement were copied and distributed in the first communities as authentic teaching... and they came to be called "New Testament".

>>18066963
There was a lot of controversy. Saying the Aramaic/Hebrew school was in error but the Hellenic/mystery/Pauline school knew better doesn't make a lot of sense to me

>>18066922
You would be mistaken to think monotheistic sects of Christianity didn't persist into the Middle Ages

>>18061417
>ordered by length
What is the reasoning behind this?

>>18056650
>Woah pseuds is based!

>>18067947
They're not perfectly ordered by length but generally. Each chapter was put together distinctly over time, Muhammad ﷺ would receive a revelation and say where it goes. Gradually distinct chapters formed and they came out that way, though it has also always been divided into 30ths, each 30th called a juz

>>18060899
Why did he delete the tweet?

>>18063943
>Islam didn't evolve
Yeah he sure joined Islam after years of researching...

>>18068651
He didn't, he just locked his account so only followers see it, probably due to trolls

>>18067478
Historians doesn't talk in terms of right or wrong.
They only say Gospels were originally written in greek and the aramaic community used translations in their language.
Also, you have used goods from the syrian christianity in the quran.
These are facts.

>>18069757
You are alleging that historians don't believe Gospels were written in any language besides Greek and that the authentic and true Gospels are considered by historians to be the four of the Roman sect?

>>18069946
The four gospels you can find in the NT were originally written in Greek, yes. And this is not
It is a statement that is linguistically corroborated and accepted by all, it is not even disputed.
>Roman sect
You cannot talk about a roman sect, not in in I or II century. Just the Roman community, and Rome was not very influent at the beginning specially if you compare them with the great communities of Antioch or Alexandria.
See? Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, the Greek cities in Asia Minor and what is now Greece... in all these places Greek was the language of comunication, the language of culture, the language of the known world, that's why the Gospel were written in Greek, they wanted spread the Word everywhere.
Also the very first community of Jesus talked greek. Yes, it is implied in the Gospel. For example the jewish Stephen, the first martyr, talked greek and not a semite language.

>>18056613
Takbir.

>>18070329
You are alleging that historians don't think there were any Gospels braided those four or that they were derivative from early gospels or an earlier gospel?

By Rome I don't mean the city. I mean Roman as in the grouping that also would include the identity of for example the Greeks then. Many people who had never been to Rome identified as Romans and would continue to even after the Empire lost Rome and even after the Turks conquered it

>>18070340
الله أكبر

>>18070520

Now you are move the topic, the 4 canonical gospels were written in greek. Period.
They used different material mostly oral tradition. This is not a secret, Luke started his writting like this: 1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus.
If you mean the document Q it would be the common source only for Matthew and Luke, and it would be a collection of sayings in Greek. Yes, greek again.
If you mean the so called hebrew-gospels they are derivative from the canonical gospels.
And before that Paul wrote his letters, in Greek. As I said Greek was the language of the first community.

>>18056637
Do it. Allah guides whom he wills, all you have to do is take the first step

>>18057521
Truth-pilled

>>18070788
Then you concur with the Islamic position that the Gospel Gospel, singular, was revelation in the words of Jesus himself, rather than a third person account of him? Do you think these words were in Greek? Or that they were never recorded in Hebrew or Aramaic (the predominant language of Jews in the holy land unlike Jews outside of it)? That his followers had no interest in keeping a record of his verbatim words which they considered to be Allah's, and only concerned themselves with preserving a Greek approximation?

>>18070953
allah is a faggot and youre an FBI agent

>>18056613
I can't tell whether I hate Christianity or Islam more. I do hate both, but I can't decide which is worse. Some days I wake up thinking Christianity is worse, other days Islam.
Lately, I have been thinking Christianity is a wee bit worse because I agree worshiping any man is sick. However, I think worshiping the natural elements, fire, or even animals is fine. For this reason, Muslims would call me an idolator, but humorously enough, I agree with them worshiping any man is sick.
It baffles me how any "European" Christian can worship the flesh and Christ of a Jew and think they're somehow more "white" or "Indo-European" than Arabs? I mean, you are both pretty much equally as Semitic in mentality. At least Arabs don't try to lie about who they are to their credit.

>>18071321
>flesh and Christ of a Jew
flesh and blood of a Jew*
Sorry for typo.

>>18071115
Nope. As I said the Gospels were written during the life of people who knew personally Jesus. And they gave their OK to the Gospels we know.
>Do you think these words were in Greek?
People who knew Jesus talked Greek.
>Or that they were never recorded in Hebrew or Aramaic (the predominant language of Jews in the holy land unlike Jews outside of it)?
Greek was spoke in Jerusalem and all the Holy Land by ethnically jews. The Holy Land was divided in hellenistic kingdoms. It is not hard to understand.
>That his followers had no interest in keeping a record of his verbatim words which they considered to be Allah's, and only concerned themselves with preserving a Greek approximation?
A lot of verbatim words of Jesus were conserved in the Gospels. They were concerned in conserve the sayings and works of his Master and Lord.

Anyway, why are you against the Gospels? More or less a 10% of your "sacred" booklet depends directly from the syriac Gospels. If you attack the Gospel you are actually atacking the quran. LOL
And you are worried about the originality of the Gospels?.
Look, Quran > Syriac Gospels > Gospel > Jesus.
Your sacred booklet uses 4º hand material. I mean Mohammed reused for his work the syriac translation from a greek original that uses the Jesus words.
What do you think is more faithful to Jesus: the first generation of believers or the claims of a random arab centuries after who only knew Jesus with syriac translations?.

>>18071115
Christ's revelation was the Christian Church, not words.

>>18071375
>And they gave their OK to the Gospels we know.
We might be a strong pronoun here

>Greek was spoke in Jerusalem and all the Holy Land by ethnically jews.

I thought they spoke Aramaic?

>A lot of verbatim words of Jesus were conserved in the Gospels.
If he spoke Greek


>What do you think is more faithful to Jesus: the first generation of believers or the claims of a random arab centuries after who only knew Jesus with syriac translations?.
I don't think Greeks says, “It's simple, we kill the creator. Then eat him” reflect anything like the religion of YHWH no because this is explicitly an idea of the Greek mystery religion and Greco Christianity actually marketed itself that way. I find Islam's claims, however much later, far more convincing. I think Paul taught his sect to the Greeks and I don't think it is very reliable as he never knew or followed Jesus and went to the Greeks because the Hebrew Christians rejected him

>>18071689
>I thought they spoke Aramaic
Multilingualism is not recent phenomena, you know?
The inscription of the cross was written in 3 languages right. It's easy why they chose Latin and Hebrew... but why do you think they chose greek too?
>If he spoke Greek
Read the Gospels again, but this time put attention maybe you'll spot something.
>Greek mystery religion and Greco Christianity
Eucharist has not its roots in Greece, but in oriental mysteries such a...bread of the pressence. And it was ritualized in a Seder. Does it ring you a bell? Ah, both are jewish traditions! Unbelievable!
A tradition atested in one of the most ancient documents of christianity: the first epistle to the corinthians. A document wrote when the original community was alived.
> I think Paul taught his sect to the Greeks and I don't think it is very reliable as he never knew or followed Jesus and went to the Greeks because the Hebrew Christians rejected him
>I think
Read the Epistles, read Acts, not like a believer but as historian. Paul met the first community, he went to Jerusalem and he met the "Pillars of the Community".

>I find Islam's claims
Clearly you don't have much knowledge of history so your opinion has no validity whatsoever. Sorry to be so rude. But it is the truth.
> however much later, far more convincing
On the other hand, you find perfectly valid a writing made from 4th hand biblical scraps. Pretty dishonest.

>>18072355
>>18072355
I seriously doubt they would publish such a charge in Latin or Greek, though Greeks did live around there. Like the swineherds. Jesus is sometimes quoted verbatim speaking Hebrew in the NT. I don't believe he or his followers spoke Greek

I don't refer to the ritualistic breaking of break, I'm referring to the idea of achieving one with the divine by slaughtering and eating a deity.

Acts is read by historians as a propaganda work generally in response to efforts to discredit Paul. It's written by his right hand man, the epistles are all either written by him or by impersonators (which Greeks didn't consider deceptive). So the entire work comes from Paul and his followers of the Greek school and we don't have any of the words of his opponents

>>18073673
>I seriously doubt they would publish such a charge in Latin or Greek, though Greeks did live around there.
If you have to doubt, you should doubt the title was written in Hebrew. You should think as a Roman of the Ist century. Jesus was found guilty and condemned under roman law and the charges was expresed in latin for sure. That's why I think you don't know much about history.
>I don't believe he or his followers spoke Greek
Jesus spoke aramaic for sure and, maybe, some (broken) Greek but this pure speculation. His message was transcribed in Greek. So? The first community just followed the jewish tradition of translated in text the teachings of their rabbi (and He was more than a rabbi), a tradition than centuries after was compiled in Talmud. But they used first hand tradition. And the apostles gave her ok. This is not an issue. Curiosily the aramaic-community translated the greek gospels. That should you make you think.
>I don't refer to the ritualistic breaking of break,
Adapt all traditions to the Good News of the Resurrection.
> I'm referring to the idea of achieving one with the divine by slaughtering and eating a deity.
Again, this is found in the oriental religions, not in greek religion.
>Acts is read by historians as a propaganda
Not exactly propaganda but yes.
>work generally in response to efforts to discredit Paul
Not necessarily since its reach and scope is beyond the first pauline communities.
>It's written by his right hand man, the epistles are all either written by him or by impersonators (which Greeks didn't consider deceptive)
Sure.
>So the entire work comes from Paul and his followers of the Greek school
Pretty impressive, right?
>and we don't have any of the words of his opponents
We have Acts and the epistles and we can see the hot debate, but above that we can see they reach an agreement. As I said, the hebrew and aramaic speaking community adopt the greek NT. There must be a reason.

>>18074345
The label on the cross is the charge? I thought the charge was sedition and the label was intended to spite the Jews as per the NT

I personally don't think he spoke Aramaic but Hebrew. He was teaching from the Torah. Aramaic is just a common hypothesis due to local popularity of the language but Hebrew is much more likely, especially since his verbatim quotes in the NT are in Hebrew

The idea of a mystery involving slaughtering and eating a deity is god news to pagans and a very popular religion with them. I don't know if it justifies eisegesis

Whether or not it was a motif in Greek mystery cults I trust the prior article I linked to clear up

I don't know if any Hebrew community accepted it. In fact the NT quotes from the Septuagint even when there is a discrepancy with the Hebrew. If we look at the church fathers none bothered to learn Hebrew but did their commentary on the Septuagint or a Latin translation, except Jerome who hated Chrysostom and disliked the Septuagint. I can only imagine if the top clerics of Islam couldn't read Arabic and all made their commentary on a Persian translation

>>18074345
The label on the cross is the charge? I thought the charge was sedition and the label was intended to spite the Jews as per the NT

I personally don't think he spoke Aramaic but Hebrew. He was teaching from the Torah. Aramaic is just a common hypothesis due to local popularity of the language but Hebrew is much more likely, especially since his verbatim quotes in the NT are in Hebrew

The idea of a mystery involving slaughtering and eating a deity is good news to pagans and a very popular religion with them. I don't know if it justifies eisegesis

Whether or not it was a motif in Greek mystery cults (which were influenced by oriental religion) I trust the prior article I linked to clear up

I don't know if any Hebrew community accepted it. In fact the NT quotes from the Septuagint even when there is a discrepancy with the Hebrew. If we look at the church fathers none bothered to learn Hebrew but did their commentary on the Septuagint or a Latin translation, except Jerome who hated Chrysostom and disliked the Septuagint. I can only imagine if the top clerics of Islam couldn't read Arabic and all made their commentary on a Persian translation

>>18066769
Materialist detected. Everything in this universe is perishing before Allah, and only He remains abiding. Such lowly standards for truth you have

>>18071321
Very edgy and euphoric! Upvoted!

>>18070340
ALLAHU AKBAR!

>>18075619
You worship a demon bro

>>18075505
>The label on the cross is the charge? I thought the charge was sedition and the label was intended to spite the Jews as per the NT
Don't play dumb with me. Even if the Title was written only in latin everybody in Jerusalem would have understood perfectly.
>I personally don't think he spoke Aramaic but Hebrew. He was teaching from the Torah. Aramaic is just a common hypothesis due to local popularity of the language but Hebrew is much more likely, especially since his verbatim quotes in the NT are in Hebrew
>I personally don't think he spoke Aramaic
>Hebrew is much more likely, especially since his verbatim quotes in the NT are in Hebrew
Again. You are not qualified to have a valid personal opinion on the matter.
Aramaic was the vehicular language of the Palestine that Jesus lived. This is not a issue. We have Jesus quotes in aramaic "Talitha, kumi", ( verbatim you didn't know yesterday). Again, this is not an issue.
Jesus spoke aramaic. This is not a issue.
Hebrew was only used in the Synagogue, same as Latin in the Church or Slavonic in Orthodoxes Churches. But the use of Hebrew was limited, very limited.
Also since Jesus walked in many places where Greek was spoken we can argue he knew something of Greek. But this is a mere speculation.
>The idea of a mystery involving slaughtering and eating a deity is good news to pagans and a very popular religion with them. I don't know if it justifies eisegesis
>Pagan
1 Cor 10,3-4
2 baruch 29:3, 6–8
Genesis 14:17–20
Totally pagan bro.
>Whether or not it was a motif in Greek mystery cults (which were influenced by oriental religion) I trust the prior article I linked to clear up
Yes but no. First you said it was a Greek rite, now you say it was an oriental rite. Or, perhaps it was a Greek rite of eastern origin. First clarify yourself first. Second. Paul in his epistles is in fact showing the differences with other mystery rites.
>I don't know if any Hebrew community accepted it. In fact the NT quotes from the Septuagint even when there is a discrepancy with the Hebrew. If we look at the church fathers none bothered to learn Hebrew but did their commentary on the Septuagint or a Latin translation, except Jerome who hated Chrysostom and disliked the Septuagint.
Do Eastern communities use translations of the Greek Gospels? Yes.
Do they use Paul's letters as sacred documents? Yes
I don't understand why it's so hard for you to understand it.

>I can only imagine if the top clerics of Islam couldn't read Arabic and all made their
commentary on a Persian translation
The conciliar system is something alien to the Islamic world.
When in doubt, you simply invent a tradition out of your ass.