/lit/ - Literature

>>18050483
Fixed the thread

>>18050487
Thank you. Currently I just finished Bordiga and the Passion for Communism by Camatte.

>>18050483

>>18050483
>convert
More like transition lmao only trannies read leftist literature

*btfos your gnosticism*

>>18050483
Doesn't get more revolutionary than this

the only reason anyone could give for becoming communist is that its in the best interest of working class populations to own the means of production and get the full value of their labour, but both logic and confirmation of that logic via concrete history offer me more than enough proof that no communist revolution will ever actually achieve that end goal

all in all i dont see a single reason why i should opt of communism over national socialism, especially now that intersectionality has completely infested and further undermined leftism

Name me one actual Fascist book you've read and then I can take your opinion seriously on the matter.

And, no, it can't be a book by someone exploring the topic; it has to be a Fascist author.

>>18050574
Doctrine of Fascism

>>18050545
the only reason anyone could give for becoming national socialist is that its in the best interest of aryan populations to have a homogenous ethnostate and get keep their nation pure, but both logic and confirmation of that logic via concrete history offer me more than enough proof that no national socialist revolution will ever actually achieve that end goal

all in all i dont see a single reason why i should opt for national socialism over social democracy, especially now that paganism has completely infested and further undermined rightism

>>18050581
>you've read

>>18050622
>but both logic and confirmation of that logic via concrete history offer me more than enough proof
ok, im interested, let me hear why you believe this

>>18050622
Well there actually was such a nation so it's possible. I personally think that ideology is way too likely to promote ethnic cleansing and genocide. If your country is already homogenous then sure it's not a problem.

>>18050622
national socialism actually manifested its intended policy into real life anon, meanwhile im still waiting for this legendary revolution that actually ends with a classless stateless society where all workers own the capital that they work with

How about you actually do a revolution you fucking faggot.

>>18050545
Exactly this. If you're sincere about fighting for the working class, you should be screaming in panic and despair about how fucked communism is as a viable option. Not only are internationalism and Trotskyism completely discredited, the upper classes have absorbed leftism as a LARP and now use leftist/communist talking points and quotes to support "internationalism" in the sense of removing immigration restrictions, literally doing the capitalists' work for them.

But what do you actually see from the leftist camp? Nothing but complacency, smugness. That's because no sincere communists are left in there, it's all rich people blind to their own bullshit. Scratch the surface of any one of these lower-case typing leftist hipsters and you'll find out their rich father sent them to prep schools before they went to Columbia and learned to posture with "theory."

They have no answer other than a decontextualized "nations are bad, Marx said so" that conveniently allows them to keep having the same political positions as Walmart and Amazon when it comes to migrant labor. You have to look past their rhetoric and see their class. It's a rich fuck every time, so far removed from the working class he doesn't even know what work is. All he knows how to do is "like" youtube videos of some other fake commie mocking Ben Shapiro (with whom he also has identical immigration politics).

>>18050678
I like how Bernie saying that pissed off both neolibs and Marxoids. Really shows that they don’t actually care about workers. Completely agree with
>They have no answer other than a decontextualized "nations are bad, Marx said so" that conveniently allows them to keep having the same political positions as Walmart and Amazon when it comes to migrant labor
too. Modern Marxoids are just hermeneutists and have no plan for le epic socialism past what Marx said 150 years ago which is why their “analysis” of migration is so terrible. Angela Nagle wrote an article critiquing their shitty position too and they just all called her a racist.

>>18050493
Based.
Revolution is a racket.

>>18050894
>Revolution is a racket
Stirner said before Marx even wrote the Manifesto
>>18050678
You'd have to be stupid to be a leftist, and to be against immigration when it is a net benefit for entrepreneurship. Also, "working class politics" is a big meme. Nobody has to give a fuck about "class" or serve a collective of anonymous, conflicitng blob of workers

>>18050852
Yep they are just "critical theorists" now, which translates to douchey rich kid who pretends to read Benjamin by parroting what someone else said about him

Bernie has since reversed his position of course. I believe his position now is "stuff Biden's balls up my ass."

Would you mind linking the Nagle article?

>>18050545
>but both logic and confirmation of that logic via concrete history
is this parody

>>18050934
>to be against immigration when it is a net benefit for entrepreneurship
Only in the short term, it's disastrous in the long term. People like you are even worse than leftists.

>>18050852
Think I found it actually
https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-against-open-borders/
Been hoping someone would do a succinct essay like this for a while, so thanks for the recommendation.

Here's some neolib shill replying to it as a bonus:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/open-borders-nationalism-angela-nagle/

>>18050483
Because class identity in the west is largely pacified despite economic hardships and demographics shifts will lead to high ethnic conflict. If you don’t think immigration is the #1 political issue in the west today, you’re being disingenuous.

>>18050994
>But we're all citizens of the world, anon, we're all human beings

>>18050649
National Socialism lasted about 15 years (thats a thousand year reich in dog years i guess) and destroyed germany and europe in its suicidal war path. They did the exact opposite of preserving Europe culture and society. Hilter shoot himself rather than see it to the end, a cowards way out.

USSR defeated Nazis, turned a backwater peasant country to a global superpower within a generation.

China is on its way to be the global superpower. They lifted millions out of poverty and offer financial support to third world nations in much fairer terms than the IMF.

Cuba is a poor shithole, but its still able to train and send doctors all around the world and keep its country stable, provide healthcare to its citizen, and have a higher literacy rate the USA all while being under sanctions for having a different political economy than the west (so much for the free market). But no they don't have McDonalds though or two-day shipping for dildos, what a tragedy.

marxism and communism continues to evolve and adapt, while national socialism is stuck in 1935 pretending they're all ubermensch on the horizon of greatest because they only thing the can be proud of is the arbitrary nature of their skin color.

don't @ me rightoids, facts not feelings here

>>18050953
It’s called “The Left Case Against Open Borders”

>>18050545
The only way to think communism is acceptable is to accept its materialist premises.
Materialism being unfounded, against reason, communism is necessarily a flawed solution.
Le reste n'est que littérature.

>>18051001
>But we're all citizens of the world, anon, we're all human beings
No one will seriously have a “human” identity until fucking aliens invade, and even then lel...

>>18051008
Anyone who replies to this wumao tourist garbage seriously is a moron. Kill yourself faggot.

something that has come to bother me about leftist ideologies is that even if you do somehow get to the point where you achieve your goals, and workers do gain control of all capital, the entire premise of class/economic egalitarianism and mechanisms used to enforce it seems to be kind of, you know, violently anti-prosperity. in order to keep class divisions from forming, no individuals can be afforded to rise above and gain some sort of leverage over the others using the wealth they have accumulated from their successful labour, otherwise there is immediately a class division and anti-egalitarian power dynamic that forms and the entire thing is back to square one where peoples economic power allows them to have leverage over others

so pretty much it seems like you have a system like mowing your lawn, where everyone is cut down once they reach a certain height in order to maintain uniformity and prevent anyone from growing higher than others. sure as a working class person i might make a little bit more money that would otherwise trickle up the pyramid, but this really does not seem like something that will foster a flourishing society that will be in my long term interest

>>18051008
China is not communist, I'm not sure how you can even claim they are socialist and leading to communism when you actually look at their economy

>A working paper from the World Economic Forum stated that “China’s private sector - which has been revving up since the global financial crisis - is now serving as the main driver of China’s economic growth. The combination of numbers 60/70/80/90 are frequently used to describe the private sector’s contribution to the Chinese economy: they contribute 60% of China’s GDP, and are responsible for 70% of innovation, 80% of urban employment and provide 90% of new jobs. Private wealth is also responsible for 70% of investment and 90% of exports.” Today, China’s private sector contributes nearly two-thirds of the country’s growth and nine-tenths of new jobs, according to the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, an official business group.

>>18051020
You don't want to know how often I've heard that phrase (or variations) though
>>18051008
Weak bait

>>18051008
If anything Chinese success is the greatest argument for fascism I’ve ever encountered
> marxism and communism continues to evolve and adapt
If you consider being completely coopted and pacified by 68’er liberals and multiculturalism evolving and adapting then sure.

>>18051008
china is literally flourishing because its turning into a shittier version of fascism/national socialism that exploits the ever loving fuck out of its own people, treating them like trash

>>18051008
>destroyed germany and europe in its suicidal war path.

If you weren't a retard, you'd know that Germany had no other choice, like how many of your precious Communist countries were destroyed or embargoed by capitalists.

People are reading The Forced War by David L. Hoggan

>>18050574
>18050574
Op here. I've read Oswald Mosley's Questions. Hitler's Mein Kampf, and Mussolini's essay defining fascism. I don't believe "red anarchy" is a problem to be solved, nor that Mosley could fix it (as a useless aristocrat). Hitler was a fucking loser who never achived anything and just bitched about jews and marxists being better at politics. Mussolini had so many logical fallacies, such as his appeal to nature (which is basically the naturalistic fallacy), and just general shit argumentation. Now fuck off and go read this book and see what Trotsky actually believed and his hopes for the working class.

>>18050678
bernie was a demsoc and was criticised by bookchin. and open boarders is also contrary to democratic socialism, at least for the state we're in atm.

>>18051053
this is true, Han supremacy is not communist

>>18051008
>China is on its way to be the global superpower.

China *is* national socialist.

>>18051815
>China *is* national socialist.
hardly, the national socialists actually focused on regulating industry to improve conditions for workers not stuffing their own people into sweat shops like deenz and allowing all sorts of degeneracy to flourish, not to mention the focus on race and respect for their people was intermingled with respect for their land and the environment

its a such a trite meme to call them national socialist just because they figured out that diversity is retarded

>>18051502
>Mussolini had so many logical fallacies,
reddit fingers typed this post.

i used to have a musty old copy of that lmao then i graduated college and wasn't interesting in using marxism to get laid anymore

>>18050964
Blaming immigration for your own personal failures won't make your life any better.

>>18051854
Mussolini was intellectually incompetent. Hasty generalizations, naturalistic fallacy, etc., etc. Seeth

>>18051833
Go visit them.

>>18050545
>the only reason anyone could give for becoming communist is that its in the best interest of working class populations to own the means of production and get the full value of their labour\

Meaningless. Labor has no inherent value.

>>18051996
sure, sure, but acknowledging that mass immigration is used both as economic terrorism against working class people, as well as a method of subverting working class solidarity by introducing a plethora of needless divisions into working class populations might help us understand our situation and work towards building a better society

>>18052021
Naturalistic fallacy isn’t a fallacy.

>>18051996
Typical personal attacks and distraction tactics to mask that you are a reactionary.

>>18051996
Diverse workforces are less likely to form unions. If you actually care about labor, you’d advocate for ethnic homogeneity.

>>18052034

Yes, it is. Nature does plenty of bad and unpleasant things. It is not necessary to be "objective" about this in order to recognize (or to try and fail to dispose of) the fallacy for what it is, so don't bother trying that hair-splitting. The reason why, is because it is satisfactory to apprehend the subjective unpleasantness of certain natural phenomena, for at least one subject, to establish the basic idea that nature is not always good, all the time, as far as everyone is concerned. And this is sufficient to establish the reasonability of the concept of the naturalistic fallacy itself.

Animals eating other animals, disease, black holes, and so forth.

>>18052076
That's not even true, and unions are bad anyways. They're just corrupt organizations for politicians. You don't even need a union to get a higher wage, you bum, the market does that automatically to shift demand.

The western system of capitalism and republic evolved naturally over time. Communism and socialism are both constructs, developed over a short period of time. Communism has failed every time it's been tried. It's claimed millions of lives in the most horrific deaths; starvation, torture, hard labor, and murder. Grow up, OP.

>>18052032
We already live in a "better society." Communism had over 100 years, and it has been nothing but a failure. Unless, you want to explain to what could be better than what lower working hours, higher life expectancy, and higher consumption per capita that capitalism offers.

>>18050483
Workplace histories.

You might also want to try some post-communism. Castoriadis despite being an intellectual documented an actual happenstance. Operaismo is quite useful (note: not Autonomia).

Also, uh, read more Engels than Marx, except for Anti-Duhring. Anti-Duhring is Engels being accidentally ironic.

>>18052099

The truth that you must make a point of underlining parenthetically, to really piss these idiots off (and to strengthen your rhetoric) is that communism has indeed been tried. They commonly fall back on the "nuh-uh" on that one as a tiresomely false talking point, so you want to pre-empt them on that one.

>>18052100
im not going to debate that, communism is retarded, nothing you just posted actually addresses the points I made though

>>18052106
Good advice. Thanks.

>>18052112
You don't have any points to argue; its just non-nonsensical platitudes not supported by any data. Retards like you love to scapegoat immigration when there is no evidence to suggest it hurts workers. Anytime there are studies posted that directly refute your arguments; you screech like an autist about a vast neo-liberal conspiracy when you're just stupid and sheltered. You need to go outside and get a life

>>18052081
>Yes, it is. Nature does plenty of bad and unpleasant things

In your opinion. Fact is, humans are animals, and animals have psychologies which are evolved for specific conditions they are subjected to. When subjected to unnatural conditions, psychologies can suffer, which is why mental illnesses are so extremely common in the first world.

> Animals eating other animals
I like that part of nature. I myself kill and eat other animals. They taste good, cooking them is fun, and hunting them is fun.

> disease
Natural population control

> black holes
Black holes are awesome.

>>18052094
>That's not even true
“ Racial Diversity and Union Organizing in the United States, 1999–2008”

> and unions are bad anyways
Marxist advocating against worker democracy lmao

>>18052100
>CONSOOOM

Modern capitalism is a materialistic dead end that robs the human soul blind and makes us weak.

>>18052125
>autistic screeching and insults because you cant actually back up your retarded world view

excellent post friend, by all means id love to here all about how importing foreigners with cultural barriers then convincing them natives are their enemies or owe them something or forcing a million other some such petty grievances to the surface and fostering racial/cultural tensions has no divisive impact on working class populations

im sure you have a vast collection of very logical and scientific studies that prove this

>>18050483
>>18050545
Even if I only cared about improving material conditions for the working class I'm not a theorycel. I can easily look at the empirical results of almost 70 years of Soviet rule and see its abject failure to match the material success of the "capitalist" West

>>18052135
>. In particular, employers are more likely to be charged with unfair labor practices when the unit in question is more racially diverse. This effect persists when the study controls for heterogeneity among industries, unions, and regions.
The study you cited, retard, says diverse workplaces are less likely to have unions because its seen as necessary. Why cite a study that refutes you just from the abstract. Are you just stupid by any chance?
>Marxist against worker democracy
Um, Marxism doesn't call for democracy, retard. It calls for the abolition of wage labor, and a dictatorship to impose it. Historically, Marxists have indeed hated democracy because democracy does not favor the abolition of wage labor.
>>18052140
You're just a bum resentful towards those with property. Get a job, loser.

>>18052154
>The study you cited, retard, says diverse workplaces are less likely to have unions because its seen as necessary

Cherry-picking.

> Um, Marxism doesn't call for democracy, retard

Socialists believe in workplace democracy and communism is supposed to be a direct democracy.

>>18052128

Why did you bother replying when you conveniently ignored the substantive part of the argument (subjectivity vs. objectivity), to focus only on the arbitrary examples?

>>18052151
Also, tankie apologists will flat out deny the failure of the Soviet project, or just cope and say it's all America's fault. Both of these are retarded. The smarter Marxists will say that by logical extension of their theory the success of the West was achieved by moving capitalist exploitation to the third world. There is some truth to this but the problem is this line of thinking leads directly to the racial/open-borders "Socialism" popular in America today

>>18052150
But, none of what you cited actually happens. What happens is that immigrants pay taxes, and start businesses. You're a retard who has no idea what you're talking about, and this is what happens you stay on twitter and /pol/ all day without actually challenging your world views. You're just not an intelligent person
>Studies
Sure, refute all of them, please
https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/fall-2017/impact-immigration-wages-unskilled-workers
https://www.nap.edu/read/5779/chapter/6
https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy
https://papers.tinbergen.nl/04134.pdf

>>18052164
Its not cherrypicking. Its literally what the fucking study says. It doesn't have any of racist connotations you attempt put on it, retard. You do realize you can e-mail the person who did the study right? They will side with me, and not you, if you don't believe me. E-mail them right now, and post the reply in the thread. I dare you.
>Socialists believe in workplace democracy and communism is supposed to be a direct democracy.
No, there is no "democracy" under communism. Democracy implies the existence of classes; there are no classes under under communism or socialism.

>>18050678
bossanova beyond belief. i remember when the left used to be against nafta, offshoring of jobs and the foreign invasion. now the left is just weak and ugly ass, racist Caucasophobes

>>18052167
Claiming that nature does bad things is inherently a subjective judgement and therefore not worth discussing.

>>18052170
Capitalism has never exploited the third world. It’s partnered with it for mutual gain

>>18052181
>Its not cherrypicking.

It is. The abstract also claims other reasons for their failure.

>>18052171
>immigrants pay taxes, and start businesses

lol no. they pay no taxes. they leech off gubberment gibs. all those centres occasio-fellatio cries about cost tax money, but dont earn any

>>18051008
Pretty good bait for a first-timer, still not great though. I'll give you a (You) for effort

>>18050622
>a literal "no u" argument
wowie you sure have convinced me that leftists aren't cult-worshipping slogan-chanting retards

>>18052125
yeah because the law of supply a demand never works. jobs arent growing, but we flood out country with 20% of the pop of central america. i am sure that wont affect wages. lol faggos love sarcasm, so you must love my post

>>18052192
I'm just explaining a theory popular among some factions modern Marxists
>It’s partnered with it for mutual gain
This is incredibly vague. Who are the agents of this Capitalism you're personifying and who did they partner with?

>>18052181
>Democracy implies the existence of classes
democracy implies voting on decisions as opposed to have a political class that makes them without input from masses

>>18052190

This is an absurd position to take, because communicating subjects are naturally disposed---required, even---to communicate the better-or-worse content of their experiences over the course of their lives and interactions with other subjects. The "not worth discussing" is superfluous, it represents your vain attempt to hold up the idea that the naturalistic fallacy isn't one, when it clearly is. Or if you reinforce that pillar somehow, another is available for attack.

>>18052211
>This is incredibly vague. Who are the agents of this Capitalism you're personifying and who did they partner with?

Corporations and business owners set up shop in those nations and create jobs. Local employees get paid for those jobs, and then do things with the money locally.

>>18052201
Not even true since they literally use welfare at lower rates than natives.
https://www.cato.org/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigration-welfare-state-immigrant-native-use-rates-benefit
You keep can lying, but denying reality, but it doesn't change the facts. Just like the socialists, you constantly and gaslight light. It only takes a sharp, critical mind, to cut through the non-sense.
>>18052198
Literally e-mail the professor. If you're so convinced; post the e-mail. We both know you won't do it because you don't want to be embarrassed with the result.

>>18052220
>This is an absurd position to take, because communicating subjects are naturally disposed---required, even---to communicate the better-or-worse content of their experiences over the course of their lives and interactions with other subjects.

Speak for yourself. I avoid wasting time with discussions about subjective judgements because there is absolutely no way to resolve the difference in opinion except just accepting the difference or killing the other person.
“I like chili!”
“I don’t like chili!”
“Grrr let’s argue”

So stupid

>>18051996
>Oh no he's making a point, better ad hominem to distract everyone
Lel

>>18052223
>Not even true since they literally use welfare at lower rates than natives
So? They still use some, and shouldn’t be allowed to. I hate foreigners

>>18052232
They pay taxes, so, they should.
>I hate foreigners
Why do you hate your family members who immigrated here? Why don't you just fuck off back to Europe.

>>18052207
>>a literal "no u" argument
>wowie you sure have convinced me that leftists aren't cult-worshipping slogan-chanting retards

ay lmao. sick burn. you should tell that cucked libtard to share the story on r/murderedbywords since he likes the faggot website

>>18052171
>But, none of what you cited actually happens
do you live under a rock? this has to be a joke. we just had an entire summer of riots because of diversity where dozens of people were killed and billions of dollars in damages were done

we have had several election cycles straight that were defined by working class people fighting each other over racial tensions and myriad of petty "progressive" social issues while the elite rub their hands

the entirety of modern pop culture and cultural/political discourse is completely defined by the same petty squabbling over racial tensions and myriad of petty "progressive" social issues

did you just step out of a fucking time machine or something?

>>18052227

And here you seem to be intentionally ignoring the point, again. The incidental subjective "chili good/bad" is beside the point. Even you yourself are able, as you've just shown, to conceive of another subject not liking something, which is sufficient for the legitimacy of the naturalistic fallacy. When you replied to each of my artibrary examples, you were obliged to qualify each by saying that you personally "liked" each of them, or saw the bright side of each. Your position requires you to do this with /everything/, which leads to contradiction. Not to mention the common-sensical aspect, which you are also obliged to deny.

>>18052268
Its so weird how I post all this evidence, and you just go into these nonsensical non-sequiturs. You literally have no have no arguments besides schizophrenic ranting.

>>18052268
Do you think BLM protestors haven't targeted businesses of immigrants you dumbass

>>18052247
>They pay taxes, so, they should

Kick them out, so they stop paying taxes.

> Why do you hate your family members who immigrated here? Why don't you just fuck off back to Europe.

Then I’d be the foreigner, idiot.

>>18052282
Businesses of immigrants aren’t cops

>>18052287
>Kick them out, so they stop paying taxes.
Make legal immigration easier so they are better taxpayers
>Then I’d be the foreigner, idiot.
You are a foreigner. Europeans are native to America, idiot.

>>18052081
>The reason why, is because it is satisfactory to apprehend the subjective unpleasantness of certain natural phenomena, for at least one subject, to establish the basic idea that nature is not always good, all the time, as far as everyone is concerned. And this is sufficient to establish the reasonability of the concept of the naturalistic fallacy itself.
The problem is this rejection of the naturalistic fallacy also implicitly rejects every moral system in existence (due to the fact of subjective unpleasantness of non-natural systems on at least one subject). So either it is not a fallacy, or there is no valid moral system (and ergo, "if nothing is true, everything is permitted" per the old Ismaili saying).

>>18052299
>Make legal immigration easier so they are better taxpayers
I want exactly zero immigrants in America unless they’re my own ethnicity.

> You are a foreigner.
Logically impossible, since I was born in America and have not left.

>>18052289
>Businesses of immigrants
mutualist gang rise up

>>18052310
>unless they’re my own ethnicity
your opinion means nothing

>>18052320
Are all commies braindead?

>>18052320
Neither does yours

>>18052310
>I want exactly zero immigrants in America unless they’re my own ethnicity.
So you’re either a Native American or an idiot who doesn’t know what “zero” means

>>18052282
no? why would i think that? they just attacked a shit load of mostly small businesses and random working class people in a months long rain of terror that was a direct consequence of racial divisions in working class populations. such is the price we pay for the strength of diversity

>>18052274
lel are you implying that everything i said is not truthful? you didnt post a single shred of evidence that addressed a single thing I said, just a bunch of studies that stated that growing a population can help grow an economy, which is in no way something that i am disputing. why would you even post this? did you think i wouldn't call you out on this blatantly transparent attempt at an argument?

>>18052339
lol this is comedy gold, you are so stupid you actually think the nation state of the united states of america was founded by "native americans". what the hell goes through your mins when you post something like this?

>>18052271
>>18052307
This is exactly my position, though. I am a moral nihilist and my own personal “morals” are based entirely in whether or not something is emotionally satisfactory to me or emotionally unpleasant to me. Since some things are emotionally satisfactory to me, I want those things to be promulgated, and I’m comfortable with the premise of using violence to do so, and even creating moral arguments for those things based on premises that I, in actuality, reject, as long as those arguments can be used to convince others to adopt behaviors and values that I consider emotionally satisfactory. This is consistent because I am acting in self-interest, not to further some delusional “moral truth” I don’t believe exists.

>>18052350
Ah. Idiocy confirmed.
Go back to your native lands, you absolute hypocrite douche nozzle

>>18052382
>You’re a hypocrite if you don’t want to live around a bunch of foreigners of alien ethnicities and alien cultures because the USA was founded by foreigners even though it actually was founded primarily by men born in the territory of the USA of your own ethnicity

???

>>18052382
>douche nozzle
wow i wish i could give you reddit gold for this post

you appear to be so fucking stupid you dont even comprehend what i just said and are now just lashing out

>>18052400
>>18052382
You both can essentially cast the blame on why Americans systematically killed Native Americans and used them for hunting as they stole their lands on the British.

The British essentially bribed them and made them understand that if the Americans lost the Revolutionary war, then they would be granted rights, protection, and territory from the British empire.

It was during this time that some of the worst atrocities from the Native Americans occurred :3 It certainly wasn't exactly perfect before then, but it turned to absolute trash after that.

Thanks Britain.

>>18052403
You
Are
A
Foreigner

>>18052410
You literally have shit for brains. No doubt why you have no argument. Leave the thread. Preferably leave the board

>>18052382
The US was founded by Europeans. Even if he went to Europe you’d still oppose an ethnostate.

>>18052425
>implying european is an ethnicity
nazis really are retarded.

>>18052423
yea no im not the one who has shit for brains, you clearly are because you cant comprehend what i just said to you. i do have an argument, and you cant refute it so you are insulting me.

white people are not foreign ethnics in the nation states of the united states of America or canada, white people literally built the united states of America and canada, they are white colonies populated virtually entirely by white people, whites are the native ethnics of thaose nation states. this is an objective fact

now by all means lets here you try to deconstruct objective reality mrs. "you have no argument"

>>18052423
>You are a foreigner

Since I was born in the US, and have never left, I am not a foreigner, or at least not foreign relative to the United States. Try again

>>18052434
That was never implied
Communists really are dishonest

>>18052452
>implying i'm a communist

>>18052444
Yes we are so foreign to the landmass known as America. You twit.

What’s the “A” stand for?

>>18052355

A decent response, but the more you explicate your view, the more you are cornered on its logical impossibility, which you here mistake for a certain instrumental personal code which is beside the original point. The third anon introduced the morality aspect (of which I am also dubious), but his latter quote is instructive, and falls along similar lines. You again use language which makes clear that you personally conceive of "unpleasant things" * which, as has been said, is enough.

*Or else, why bother explaining-planning certain manipulative practices so as to bring about one more desirable state of affairs versus another, which itself undermines the sincerity in any species of nihilism, but that's a more normie-tier argument that they often get wrong and I don't want to get bogged down in that just now.

>>18052463
We’re discussing the country, not the continent. The continent is merely occupied by the country, and the country could conceivably relocate to a distant land.

>>18052468
You've already been refuted, stop posting. Respond to this >>18052307 properly, otherwise everything you've posted is just empty posturing, trying to appear "logical" when it's clear you have no idea what you're speaking about.

>>18052355
You might appreciate Kropotkin's Anarchist Morality

>>18052472
Fuck those dangerous idiot things. They’re spooks and more trouble than they’re worth.

>>18052463
doesn't matter, a nation is significantly more than just a land mass, white people are not foreign to this nation, its literally a European born nation, and this is a literal completely and utterly objective fact with 0 room for debate
for most of the early history nonwhites weren't even allowed to have rights here, weren't even allowed to come her sunless they were slaves

>>18052463
There are vast tracts of Native American land in America.

Of course, this doesn't excuse what we did, but don't act like we haven't been completely unconscientious. I'm tired of these Daily Show and Colbert Report tropes though, I mean really. We all have heard it before butter baby :3

We know we know, history has been FUCKED UP. But we haven't always been in a contemplative state of mind to consider these facts before. We have been remarkably unwarlike for the last decade or so :3

>>18052492
There’s always been some nonwhite freemen, who themselves ironically would often have slaves too

>>18052497
War is good. More of it’s coming as the Pax Americana comes to a close.

>>18052505
War is genuinely not good :3

However, there must always be a positive check to population increase, via Malthus. If not war, then famine or DISEASE (hence the increasing amounts of coronaviruses like SARS, MERS, etc)

>>18052468
Of course I conceive of unpleasant things. What anyone conceives of is irrelevant to nature’s “goodness” or “badness”. It lacks both objectively, because those qualities are purely our invention.

>>18052513
War is genuinely good, since it offers men (and women if they choose to become shieldmaidens) the opportunity to become true warriors, achieve glory and victory, and honor the ancestors.

>>18052479

That poster was obliquely agreeing with me, along moralistic lines. We are both correctly agreeing that the the naturalistic fallacy is a legitimate fallacy, which the other anon has been doing back-flips to deny.

>>18052463
<nise ccarlep leber cunce
I'd put it up you as a servant in my house.

>>18052531
Here is the thing: conflict is not really conducive to progressing society, or bringing people 'together' in any conceivable, moral way. It just seems to draw meaningless divisions which take us farther away from understanding one another.

How stupid do you have to be to actually believe communism will actually take its intended form? The moment a communist revolution actually wins power and has to get to work and irons out all the kinks to form an actually functional community, all the supposed virtues of communism are nowhere to be found and there is nothing left but a hollow shell

tell my again why "Fascists really should read and convert"? aside from actual tankies I guess leftist have to be the absolute epitome of pseudo intellectualism

>>18052520

These observations don't impeach the naturalistic fallacy, or somehow make it invalid, for the reasons already explained. Thank you for having politely conceded the last few points.

>>18052554
No, I was stating that it is a fallacy only given your presumption of "subjective pleasure = moral" being a valid presumption. Read my post again, retard. The naturalistic fallacy is only a fallacy given that presumption, and the same presumption also leads to the nihilistic assertion of absolutely no ethical or moral truth, which means that the idea of a "fallacy" itself becomes meaningless, which leads to a vicious circle where the naturalistic "fallacy" is simultaneously a fallacy and not a fallacy. You lack basic critical thinking skills.

>>18052585
Djilas wrote a good book on this called The New Class, it's about the apparatchik class that arises as the new communist (really stalinist) system becomes hegemonic. I saw it put well somewhere: the same deracinated bureaucrat assholes who were the problem within capitalism in the first place reproduce themselves within stalinism in a more exaggerated form.

Ezra Pound said that Lenin was already seeing some of this writing on the wall as he saw the growth of the Bolshevik apparatus. I imagine for a genuine idealist it must be disturbing to see your revolutionary movement swamped with "joiners," and to see how people behave when there's no active battle going on and they just have to do daily business. Probably gives you a taste of "oh this is what it's like to be a potentate within a degenerate capitalist state."

>>18052593

Oh okay, so let's isolate the two posts, >>18052307 and >>18052593. In the former, the greentexted argument (mine) affirms the legitimacy of the naturalistic fallacy in a certain way, which the other guy originally rejected. You then referred to "this rejection of the naturalistic fallacy", which in context naturally referred the original nihilist rejector-anon's post >>18052034 , but apparently rather than concurring on the moral plane (which refers more properly to the third anon's view, read your own post again in the context of the thread up to that point), this bit rejects my view because leads-to-nihilism derp. Well, no, because the morality-aspect and the logical-aspect of the problem are independent of each other. This is exactly what the moral-nihilist anon was missing, and you also seem to be missing it. When you refer to "ethical and moral truth" in the latter bit, you leave out the logical content: fallacy is a logical category, independent of the morality-content that you introduced.

>>18052434
That’s not what I meant, cuck

>>18052463
Butterfly, you'll never be as pretty as her. Even in your prime, you were less than her right shoulder, and now, everyday, you age more and more ugly.

>>18052759
I am the third anon, quit pretending to be that stupid. You still haven't even touched the original point I made, you're still posturing. There is not a single sentence in this post you've just made that actually deals with the substance of the issue I brought up.

>>18052777

All right. Which one are you, the nihilist anon or the morality-post anon? Please let me know. After all, it's confusing keeping track of posts on an anonymous forum. I think my earlier post >>18052759 is a fair indication that I keep track of the thread of anonymous discussion, and shitposting.

YOUR CONCEPTION OF THE NATURALISTIC FALLACY IS FUNDAMENTALLY INTERTWINED WITH YOUR BASIC PRESUPPOSITION OF SUBJECTIVE PLEASURE = GOOD. THEY ARE BOTH INTERTWINED. PLEASE USE YOUR BRAIN AND STOP IGNORING THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE. THE NATURALISTIC FALLACY IS ONLY A (ALBEIT MEANINGLESS) FALLACY GIVEN THIS MORAL PRESUPPOSITION.
I AM >>18052307

>>18052777

And most importantly, what was the original point you made? I wrote >>18052804 .

>>18052808

Okay, you're upset and also plainly wrong. Thanks!

>>18052764
>cuck
nice projection

>>18052767
>inb4 picture of Dorian Grey references

>>18052814
No argument. You are genuinely stupid, literally posturing and wasting so much time just to exit like this. Pathetic.

>>18052814
>>The reason why, is because it is satisfactory to apprehend the subjective unpleasantness of certain natural phenomena, for at least one subject, to establish the basic idea that nature is not always good
Let me finish with this, this is your very own writing:
>>The reason why, is because it is satisfactory to apprehend the subjective unpleasantness of certain natural phenomena, for at least one subject, to establish the basic idea that nature is not always good
You assert this in order to "prove" that it is a fallacy. How can you prove this assertion? You cannot. Ergo, the naturalistic fallacy is not a fallacy. You waste so much time pretending to be an intellectual, writing paragraphs of meaningless nonsense just to dodge the fundamental stupidity and irrationality of your own thought. As I originally stated, you must be a redditor to be this simultaneously pathetic and dumb.

>>18052577
>conflict is not really conducive to progressing society

I don’t value whatever this “progress” shit is. All I care about is being admirable in the eyes of my Viking ancestors.

>>18052830

I've made about 20 posts in the thread, though I suppose a passerby can't be faulted for not following the argument.

>>18052843

What is the naturalistic fallacy, in the first place? The idea that: because it happens in nature, it is good, and oh-okay here we go, now that I actually deign to check wiki it's the modern Moore book versus the classical appeal to nature. That would explain most of the rage.

>It's another forced /b/ tier politics thread made by lefties and redditors where no real arguments for anything are made

>>18052825
I actually care about my people

>>18052933
>The idea that: because it happens in nature, it is good
Which you still have not been able to refute without presupposing an equally absurd assertion. You are STILL unable to comprehend the crux of what is being said. Just leave, you're not cut out for this.

>>18053005

No, that bit was done well enough with the more basic concept in the earlier posts, that only requires the imagination of an other subject as I've said. You are welcome to state the "crux".

>>18052984
>my people
ngmi

>>18052980
i was hoping 4chan might have literates who would be willing to discuss the ideas in the book, regardless of my tongue-in-cheek op, but clearly that's not going to heppen

>>18053055

To be fair, neither fascism nor communism deserve any oxygen whatever.

>>18053033
You are still desperately trying to redeem yourself in your own eyes. If it was "done well enough", you'd easily be able to rehash how the naturalistic fallacy is logically a fallacy without appealing to a presupposed moral notion (subjective pleasure of self or other subjects = good - this is the presupposed moral notion you entire argument rests on, the "crux"). You can't, and you won't, and I'm guessing if you decide to reply to this post again you will go further in circles in an attempt to further obfuscate your mistakes.

>>18053050
Ok, keep ignoring race while everybody argues about it

Communists tend to make engineered, didactic garbage. The only great commie authors have been Tolstoy, Kafka, and Mann.

>>18053055
what kind of ideas does it propose that stand out to you?

>>18051996
>>18052100
>>18052125
>>18052171
Retard