/lit/ - Literature

Peterson is a fucking idiot

>>18019961
I guarantee you he's read at least twice as many books as you.

>>18019950
kek. Pretty good, OP.

>>18019979
Doubt it.

>>18019950
yes, PBUH, I waship them as objects and Idols.

>>18019961
"Well what the bloody hell do you think transgender people are then? Tell me how you can make sense of transgender people from an atheistic point of view."

Is this real?

>>18020021
Well it's not so clear what's real or not is it Sam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8-cjd5cdIU

>>18020019
Men who have failed to become appropriately masculine and sexually productive, escape to fantasies of femininity that are internalized and then self-projected.

>>18020080
don't forget the 'watch anime' part.

>>18019979
If you think that makes him less of an idiot then you're dumber than he is

>>18019950
Roughly speaking

>>18019950
Your penis. Wash it.

>>18019979
two times zero is still zero

>>18019950
I mean I agree with the concept of rejecting the constraints of identity put on them by society - but the issues is that people are doing that because of the inherent incostistencies and paradoxes of identity.

It's more like reducto ad absurdum happening in real life

>>18020036
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiwTYctDVfw

>>18021884
kek

>>18021884
Based

>>18019950
>tfw you're so normal you need philosophical mental gymnastics in 800 page books and week long seminars to explain why your behavior is normal

>>18019950
Reminder Peterson is purely in it for the money and fame. Nothing he says is original or genuine.

>>18019950
I doubt he's ever said this

>>18019950
dude no they just have messed up brain chemicals cause of plastics. you go to the hardcore baseline websites and it's either gay nerds who converted in their 20s over sissy hypno or people whose endrocines were f***cked because of BPA in everything silent spring etc.

DO not psychologize them. Thank u

>>18019950
>do you agree with peterson that trans people are divine?
Yes

https://youtu.be/Kv3yIv9nwf8

>>18019950
that's a pretty good fake, counting on anons here to hate him without reading him.. clever, clever..

no joke though, even though 12+12 rules are basic and pray on people who don't usually read, MoM is a terrific book with many great insights..

and if it needs to be said, JBP finds trannies to be a clinical case with mental problems - HE IS A FUCKING THERAPIST after all, so at least shill with smth more believable

>>18021920
This. What bothers me about Peterson is how he tells everyone that you're the only one responsible for your success or failure, that people who suffer from depression or anxiety just need to clean their room and embrace their responsibilities, yet he has been taking SSRI's and benzo's for years and almost died from it. He seems like a very miserable person who only can only feel some sort of light happiness when he's in the spotlights adored by millions of insecure young men. Also he's probably rich as fuck now.

Peterson is just a depressed narcissist

>>18022372
He's a clinical psychologist, i dont think hes ever said that you are the only one responsible for success or failure, that is completely opposite to how you address problems in your life and any therapist who doesnt go into your past experiences isnt a therapist.
He started depression medications because of his wife dying of cancer i think.
I cant believe im simping for Jordan Peterson but you cant just write off the idea of self responsibility by coping just so you dont have to deal with the fact you could be doing better

No
They’re demons

>>18022348
>>18019950
Imagine him using the word Xe and then describing them as godlike, anyone on this board who believes that could be something he said either doesnt even know why he got famous in the first place or is drooling from the mouth as they read it

>>18020080
Autogynephilia is also a big part of it.

>>18022552
>He started depression medications because of his wife dying of cancer i think.
No that's benzo's, he had been taking antidepressants for years before that.

All I'm saying is he's only in it for the fame and the money. If he'd actually care about 'postmodern marxism' ruining universities, he'd actually read Marx and the postmodernists so he could give an adequate critique on them. He never did. This is why he only debates journalists and college activists, because they know less then he does and it makes him look like the smartest guy in the room. When he debated Zizek he made a fool of himself by showing he never read philosophy outside of Marx's Communist Manifesto. Zizek went easy on him but he could've exposed him for the fraud he really is.

So let me repeat: someone who makes bank by warning people for le postmodern marxist boogieman, and then not reading the boogiemen you're actually warning about, is a fraud. He has no knowledge of Foucault and Derrida when he talks about them and paints them as some anything goes nihilists who support trannies and Marx. Say what you want about their philosophy, but it's so far removed from what Peterson paints them to be.

He seems like a deeply troubled person who's unable to really look at himself and what drives him. He uses Christianity as some sort of self-help tool as he doesn't even believe in God and as a Christian this just bothers me a lot. He's nothing more than a self-help guru who preys on young insecure men who have trouble talking to girls and grew up without a strong masculine role model. He fulfills that role model, which is why he became so popular in such a short time. It's all archetypal.

>>18020019
Most trannies are traumatized by a shit childhood. Their desire to turn into a different person is for them like a religious transformation. They can 'start over' as it were with a different identity and a different name they choose themselves. It's all about taking back control over their lives and leave the past behind them. It's just one big cope and for a lot of people it actually works so who am I to judge?

>>18022594
exactly, and the amount of people here who thought it true is fucking disturbing

>>18019950
>divine
No, but there is some truth to what he's saying under all the psuedery. Men become troons because
>it's a method of escapism by which men under extreme mental pressure can alleviate it by joining the most fashionable minority
>it's a fetish

>>18022681
Then say that then, I dont care about his marx talks and can't even comment on them other than yeah I agree with you he's probably out of his depth against someone who's studied that stuff his whole life but I dont think hes particularly 'preying' on anyone.
To me it seems like he got famous from that compelled speech crap and then in interviews he saw he got a lot of response when rambling on about responsibility.
You could say that he 'capitalised' on it and gained from it emmensely but imagine you're him and all your experience in your field has led you to the conclusion that responsibility isnt being pushed to young people enough. And now he has a chance to do some good with his ill gotten fame.
I don't see his charlatanry extending to his knowledge on clinical psychology or his self help guru shit.

>>18022681
>Zizek went easy on him but he could've exposed him for the fraud he really is
It's a real shame he didn't.
>He has no knowledge of Foucault and Derrida when he talks about them and paints them as some anything goes nihilists who support trannies and Marx. Say what you want about their philosophy, but it's so far removed from what Peterson paints them to be.
This. His knowledge of these philosophers is apparently all traceable to Steven Hicks's Explaining Postmodernism shitbook
>He seems like a deeply troubled person who's unable to really look at himself and what drives him
Very much. As are all ''Capitalists'' that oppose transgender ideology, anti-capitalism and the SJW phenomenon with such fervor.
>He uses Christianity as some sort of self-help tool as he doesn't even believe in God and as a Christian this just bothers me a lot.
I'm not even christian and it bothers me as well.


based post. thank you king

>>18019950
Transgenderism is what Kierkegaard describes as the false self in the Concept of Anxiety. A fetish and an object of perpetual frustration. Like the megalomaniac who suffers that he is not a Napoleon.

>>18022372

>people who suffer from depression or anxiety just need to clean their room and embrace their responsibilities

Clinically diagnosed with sever depression here. Getting chores done and knowing I can depend on myself made me feel immeasurably better than drugs or empathy. It's not glamorous and it's not easy but its the closest thing to a panacea for being in a malaise.

>>18022769
I'm not denying getting chores done makes you feel better, but one of Peterson's mantra's is "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world" and that just seems so unbelievably hypocritical from someone who literally almost died from drug withdrawal. It teaches young men to be uncritical of the world they live in and especially in these times there is a lot of outrageous crap happening that needs to change. Not everyone who wants to change the world is a mentally ill rich pseudo-Marxist college student who posts on Tumblr. Peterson's message is basically just: obey, do what you're being told, have children and work hard. With that mindset we would still be cavemen.

>>18019950
some event in childhood gave them the fetish
instead of mastering themselves they make their fetish into their identity and lifestyle
now it's so widespread all children and mentally unstable as easy to bring into the new cult

>>18022822

I don't find Peterson particularly great - but everyone is a hypocrite - and it's a weak metric for wisdom. I'd rather take advice from someone who's had a dark night of the soul than someone who appears perfectly put together and never experienced any actual adversity. As I'd sooner trust a deadhead hippie burnout that abusing psychedelics are bad for you, than hearing the same from a straight edge suburban straight edge Christian.

>>18022769
>>18022859
Based. I feel the same way. We're gonna make it depressionbro.

>>18019950
fucking Jungian, they sure do make interesting bullshit

>>18022859
I'm not saying Peterson's therapeutic insight isn't beneficial to people who suffer from depression or anxiety, I'm just saying people shouldn't see him as a philosopher because he simply isn't. I'd have no problem with him if he'd just wrote and spoke about how to overcome your mental health issues, the problem is that he speaks and writes about a lot of stuff that are beyond his expertise. This makes him seem like a megalomaniac and a cult leader to me.

>>18023060

Oh, he most certainly wants to be a messianic figure and modern day shaman. So desperately wants to be the next Jung. But again, we're all vain hypocrites and I'm not any more invested in Peterson than his brick and mortal life advice. Yeah, it's fun to shitpost about Peterson's coma - I just don't care.

You know there's someone paid to post Peterson threads, right? It's so transparent.

>>18022681
>He uses Christianity as some sort of self-help tool as he doesn't even believe in God and as a Christian this just bothers me a lot
He says he "acts as if there is a god" and counts himself as undecided as to whether there is one, so basically Christian with extra wiggle room. He sees the Christian teachings as a tool for trying to understand human morality and the archetypes that permeate through time. Christianity isnt just the past 2000 years, many stories in the old testament are retellings of pagan stories (i.e. great flood stories pre dating the bible).
Would you prefer he create his own idea of right and wrong and reinvent the wheel because he doesn't have the right to read the bible as a non Christian. Or use this document that literally has the knowledge of thousands of years. And a sort of 'evolution' of intellectual humanity as ideas are passed from hunter gatherer societys to the modern day.

He isnt simply reading the ten commandments to use as a self help tool, he could have used any holy book to try and understand why we are the way we are.
I feel like you're trying to find reasons to dislike him, there are plenty. But this isnt one of them in my opinion.

>>18022689
>Most trannies are traumatized by a shit childhood.
>and for a lot of people it actually works so who am I to judge?

you will never be a woman

>>18019950
It looks like the original videos discussing his opposition to Bill C-16 have been privated (ho hum) - this link to a mock debate he was invited to is still pretty insightful (unfortunately for me, I still agree with his general statements):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TAQlleqDgbI

>>18023091
>so basically Christian with extra wiggle room
That's not how it works. You either genuinely open your heart for Christ and accept he died for our sins, or you don't. You cannot pretend or act 'as if', that doesn't make you a Christian. Sure you can be inspired by Him to act how he says one should act, but that doesn't make you a Christian at all. You cannot cheat God, and only those who genuinely open their hearts to Him are Christians.

From a Christian perspective this is like hearing atheists say they appreciate Bach or how Brothers Karamazov is filled with 'life lessons'. It's just meaningless if you don't genuinely believe in God and Christ.

>>18022552
He's a clinical psychologist who went on to opine on politics and retarded culture war issues as his main claim to fame. He is way out of his depth on politics and history and sounds dumb when he jumps into them.

>>18023159
Its not about the belief, its about finding objective truth. If the fucking bible cant be used as a resource then may aswell burn every single book because knowledge is apparently subservient to belief

>>18023080
>we're all vain hypocrites
why?. it always give me some kind of shivers when i listen somebody saying something like that.
because its so twisted, you are honest about your own hipocrisy so you still validate and appreciate honesty. but at the same time you are aware of your hipocrisies and see them so deep arranged in your life that you just give up and say everyone is hypocrite.
you can be shit, but if you are honest about it you are not an hypocrite. i see hypocrisy unnecesary.

>>18022689
No, I don't believe that's the case. Maybe online, but in the real world MTF/FTM is a combination of 3 factors:
1 BPD
2 Sex Dystonic Orientation
3 Autogynephilia/Autoandrophilia
You could argue that the root cause for a rough percentage is developmental (botched hormone secretion), but most of what the Psych community sees today is a combination of attention-seeking and status conflict as a byproduct of the nurture assumption(s). The average psychiatrist isn't keen on transitioning, despite media statements to the contrary.

>>18023207
All of the things you named are literally a product of having a traumatic childhood. Nobody is born like that

>>18021884
Peterson ruined once again.

>>18023203
>you can be shit, but if you are honest about it you are not an hypocrite.

Yes? I agree? I mean, if we're talking about JPB's character, I've already made my opinion known - I think he desperately wants to be messianic shaman. JPB has been pretty transparent with his depression and mental health and never once expressed himself as being the penultimate expression of his outlooks. He doesn't have any particularly outstanding human failings that make his brick and mortal life advice and less valuable. Quite the opposite, I prefer advice from someone who's struggled as opposed to a vision of perfection. I have very little interest in casting stones at him beyond the occasional shitpost.

>>18023249
No, not really. BPD is common (as in very common, adolescents are diagnosed often and with reasonable accuracy, it's very easy to spot) - trauma focus is only a component in DBT (assuming you even qualify what trauma actually is in a given context; a good chunk of 'trauma' is a peer has an item I want or I was called a name). That doesn't mean that children aren't viciously raped by their siblings or prostituted by their parents (I see it occasionally in acute care) regularly, just that the bulk of real-world trauma is trivial by comparison to long-term physical/sexual abuse. BPD is highly heritable (check the literature yourself).

Is Peterson the ultimate midwit filter?

>filters leftists
>filters urinalists
>filters fascist larpers
>filters commies
>filters trannyboys
>filters fence-sitting intellectuals who vastly overrate what Peterson is or is trying to be

>>18023305
i was just talking about the shiver it gives me the "we all are hypocrites" because blend honesty and hipocrisy alltogether in a twisted and (hypocrite) way. i was not talking about jordan peterson but about you or people who can say something like that.
>i should have said i was not the anon of the jordan peterson conversation.

>you are only a ~~faggot~~ tranny because you were abused as a child
The least you could do is come up with something new...

>>18019950
It's very American to go on from one term to the next because the first four letters are the same.

>>18023386

Well I'm not saying it as a matter of reproach. More as a deep respect for human failings and acceptance of it. There's no need to be demoralized by the fact manure stinks.

>>18023380
>urinalists
Is this someone who worships urinals?

>>18023403
Transition and transcend are very similar, one means to move into the next and another means to move into something higher. One is more neutral than the other. Also Peterson isn't American. Stop posting.

It'd be nice if he actually tried to engage with scientific literature regarding trans people
You can't just talk shit without bringing up gender dysphoria, that's an essential part to understanding transgender identities.

>it's a fetish
>it's because of childhood abuse
>it's because they couldn't be REAL men
the least you could do is come up with some new catchphrases instead of recycling the old ones you used for fags

>>18023411
but what happened when we say manure smell good after all?.
i can see people unredeemable bad, selfish, whatever "bad" thing you want to call it. but i believe we can be sincere about it, its like i see unnecesary the hypocrisy part. but probably is something personal.
i have a friend who say "true is overrated" and he was a fucking liar and social climber hellish person, so in his head, true is really not important. this "we all are hypocrites" remind me to that. people who are saying to you "i am hypocrite". but i am so fucking aspie right now that i must probably stop.

It is amazing how many people are unable to grasp the concept of gender identity

>>18023479
It's like your appendix anon.
Can you feel your appendix right now? No, you probably can't.
If it were infected and bursting though, you'd have a hard time not noticing it.
Therefore, normies don't intuitively understand.

>>18023468

Hypocrisy should be accepted in the same way the smell of manure is accepted as being contributive to perfume of a rose.

>>18023479
How does biologically changing your sex follow?

All this talk about gender not being about sex or sexuality is only contradicted by the fact that you side with the trannies that contradict your argument.
Why couldn't he feel and act as a woman and not have tits and vagina? Isn't that gender identity? Instead you support people becoming a mutilated binary pastiche of a woman.

>>18023491
Anorexia is a mental illness, but you don't deprive them of food. You correct their behaviour/thinking.
That doesn't mean turn them into manly men or anything, but why not persuade them to express their gender identity through personality (like gender theory logically implies), rather than condoning puberty blockers and surgery?

>>18023448
Dysphoria is a non-issue that typically resolves post-adolescence. My responses elsewhere:
>>18023207
>>18023351
are reasonably accurate summaries of the extant literature. The issues at play are more sociological than psychological.

>>18023479
because its a manufactured refined concept who only should be a niche academic notion.
people assume sex identity it was, above all, a physical identity. and that you can be whatever you want independently of your sex.

>>18023491
>>18023479
anyone who has bothered to live doesn't understand your revisions of nature because they don't need to or want to live in your particular fantasy.
You either conform to the basics of man or woman, and act as such or you are a freak to them. So please don't go perpetuating Xe and Xir crap that makes life for you and them pointlessly toxic for nothing other than your own whims.

>>18019950
I’m sure you probably just made this up but trannies do seem like they have some sort of martyr-complex. I also think it has to do with a fear of growing old (or perhaps an envy toward beautiful people?). You see a lot of ftm ones who dress like teenage boys and wanting to basically be 90s Leonardo DiCaprio. There is definitely a mythology to it. Probably some kind of similar dichotomy in mtf as well.

>>18023518
The anorexia argument doesn't really hold up when you know that transitioning IS considered the treatment, as medication is with other mental illnesses.
There aren't any other known ways of treating gender dysphoria, just as there aren't any 'cures' for homosexuality?

>Why couldn't he feel and act as a woman and not have tits and vagina?
She probably just felt better about herself that way. It's really not that hard. If you were born without a penis you'd probably feel shitty about it too.

>>18023518
Because you cannot just correct their behavior or thinking. We didn't arrive at the current treatments for no reason. Conversion therapy has yet to have a single success. And you advocate for expressing gender identity through personality, but that shit gets shut down faster than you could imagine. It is a great social taboo for a man to act feminine in almost all circumstances.

>>18022013

>>18023553
>This kills the tranny

>>18023445
>Stop posting.
Food for thought.

>>18023583
>>18023553
samefag

Anyways, the "xe xir" strawman shit is getting old. Trannies just want to live their lives. Transitioning makes their lives a lot better in many cases. That's all the justification needed.

>>18023513
like i said, to me you are telling me you are an hypocrite. like my friend was saying he was a liar even what he think he is doing is "being honest".
you are saying exactly what i imply the hypocrite will say.
>but what happened when we say manure smell good after all?.
"the manure contribute to the smell to roses". hypocrisy in action.
we all hate hypocrisy and lies, when you start to see them as "necessary" its because you are pretty rotten.

>>18023518
>How does biologically changing your sex follow?
Isn't it obvious, to match the body with the identity.

>>18023572
Leeches were considered the treatment for things in past, doesn't mean it worked. The point seems to have whooshed over your head.
>>18023577
>We didn't arrive at the current treatments for no reason.
Actually we did, it's not working, it makes certain doctors and pharmaceutical companies money, and is increasingly being pushed into "if you want this to work, you need to block puberty". It is touted as a solution to young, impressionable minds, and the irreversibilty of it had led many people wishing that they were talked out of it, rather than being encouraged
>And you advocate for expressing gender identity through personality, but that shit gets shut down faster than you could imagine. It is a great social taboo for a man to act feminine in almost all circumstances.
Are you living in the 1950s, perhaps?

>>18023606
The sex cannot be actually changed though. They don't become biological women/men. They become something else, more like or even literally a Eunuch.

>>18023606
Your identity is a construct, everything about 'you' is the byproduct of social circumstance. Ergo, the body will always be mismatched, which is what the literature suggests (see depression/suicidality).

>>18023599

If everyone is a hypocrite ...

>>18023598
>samefag
no

A lot of people would say a lot of cases end in suicide or worse 'de-transitioning' and living with the consequences of life changing decisions, you're further living in a fantasy if you think it's completely fine to transition and isn't rife with hard philosophical questions (even about playing god) and even physical questions of ethics.
You seriously cannot go about telling everyone with an inkling of this mental illness to transition without the blood of thousands on your hands.
I apologise about the straw man about xe and xir that was pretty pathetic of me but the bait OP mentioned that crap.

>>18023606
Why does that matter? If behaviour isn't attached to sexual organs? Do you not understand the contradiction?

If you rigidly enforced a male/female gender behaviour system, then you could in some way understand the trans stuff, but gender theory, non-binary people, different genders and all that stuff being pushed in society and being legally backed in most western nations means that a man can act and feel like a women but happen to have a penis, and no one can do shit.
So why indulge people with an unecessary surgery by your own standards?

Wasn't the whole JK Rowling thing about her saying that the phrase "people who menstrate" so as not to offend trans women, and indication that this isn't about a rigid biological reality?

So why go through with and encrouage an irreversible process that isn't necessary by your own standards?

>>18023658
i dont know what this means, but is ok.

>>18023629
Go ahead and act faggy, see how that works out for you (it won't).
>Actually we did, it's not working, it makes certain doctors and pharmaceutical companies money
So you think this is a conspiracy to make money by... selling estrogen? Really? The money is not there, in this sector. Pharma companies make bank off of other things, but not hormones.
And yes, if you want a biological male to look like a female, you're going to need puberty blockers around 12-13 and hormones by 16 or so. Otherwise, it won't really pan out unless you get really lucky.

>>18023629
You have no idea what you're talking about.
What makes you think that hrt doesn't work? Because trannies don't get your dick hard? Even if they don't pass physically the mental relief from being on cross-sex hormones is apparent. Detransitioning is something that happens, but it doesn't happen that often because it takes a lot of introspection to even begin in the first place. Transgender identities aren't 'failing' or collapsing, they're at their beginning of mainstream acceptance.
Estrogen is also ridiculously easy to synthesize, there's no money in it. Surgeries? Maybe, but it's a small market and people transitioning younger makes that less necessary.

>>18023652
>The sex cannot be actually changed though.
Who gives a shit, gender identity is not about muh chromosomes, it's about visible body characteristics

>>18023572
Anorexia is an apt argument, as it deals with severe body dysmorphia. The prescription of liposuction would not make sense, of course.

There aren't any other known ways... now. As someone else has pointed out, there have been medical procedures and medicines that have gone away since better techniques arose.

> If you were born without a penis you'd probably feel shitty about it too.

Being born without genitalia is different than "feeling" like you are the opposite gender. Transgenders who undergo surgery are really just manifestations of simulation. I'm not sure why thinking altering your genitalia opens up a magical doorway into "experiencing" what the opposite gender experiences biologically -- nevermind that it's not a natural vagina, so they're not "experiencing" being born with one.

I'd rather question why there is a notion of accessing the "experience" of other humans through romanticism/fetishism. I would be as suspicious if a midget "felt" like he was a giant, even though the experiences are physically different; even among normal people, experiences differ. So, I'm not sure which "experience" trans people are after that isn't purely what they've constructed.

>>18023657
This is actually what John Money thought. As such, he thought it would be a good idea for a boy that was born without testicles to transition him into a female body. Since gender identity is a social construct, he will grow up identifying as a woman, no problem. Unfortunately, he developed gender dysphoria and killed himself. Moral: gender identity is built in in the brain.

>>18023659
The amount of detransitioners is greatly overstated, mainly to further a point. About 0.4% of transitioners later detransition because they believe they made the wrong choice. Denying transition would harm far more people than it would help.

>>18023675
Transgender people aren't really considered regular to normies, and I don't think they will be for a long while. In any case that's not the issue here. The physical component of dysphoria is the main thing for most. I'm sure 99.99% of all trannies would rather be biologically their desired sex than to be treated like their desired sex.

>>18023707
Yeah ok, who does give a shit about language. I'd want to know if a woman was a real woman prior to courting her, if she is capable of bearing children, if her tits are real and if her vagina is a vagina. These are pertinent issues for a man such as myself if I'm seeking a potential wife.

>>18023675
I don't understand your point. The transgender phenomenon is the phenomenon of a person's sex not matching their gender identity. The solution typically proposed is to alter the body to match the identity. What is your objection?

>>18023762
No one asked you were you want to stick your penis, we are discussing gender identity

>>18023693
>And yes, if you want a biological male to look like a female, you're going to need puberty blockers around 12-13 and hormones by 16 or so.
THIS ISN'T A SOLUTION TO ANYTHING. Are you retarded? No one should want that.

If he feels like a woman (let's pretend this is 100% verifiable and not just based of circular reasoning around perceived gender roles) then why can't he just feel and act that way, as he is? There is no one that would -legally- be allowed to discriminate and considering attitudes have changed towards the positive regarding gender even being a spectrum in the last half century, safe to say that any social stigma would ease off as much as any free society can expect.

>>18023736
Bull fucking shit. This is all a chicken and the egg, propaganda fest. These people feel unlike the rest of the boys and then are told about dysphoria and make it about biology, when its not.

Both the trannies and the gener theorists are in complete contradiction with each other but work together because it undermines what they perceive to be the status quo, which is in fact some 1950s snapshot from the mind of a oversocialized academic.

You get nothing but zelous support form everybody in the mainstream but still want to pretend that you're gonna get lynched to undermine normal society and to attack people that see through the shit.

>>18023763
That it's a bullshit solution being pushed onto impressionable kids, you fucking retard.

>>18023772
>That it's a bullshit solution being pushed onto impressionable kids, you fucking retard.
Why is it a bullshit solution

>>18023729
You've altered some key facts in the David Reimer case - it was a botched circumcision, not anorchia (pretty important distinction). See:
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-management-of-intersexuality.html

>>18023762
Well it's not really any of your business unless you are looking to date someone. As such, a trans person does not need to tell you that they are trans unless they want to or are pursuing a relationship with you.

also the BOOBA are real anon

>>18023736
>0.4%
so that's how many people actually make it to detransitioning? can you imagine the guilt and unending pain that consumes those that don't even make it there? Especially when they might have wasted decades and thousands of their income. I feel awful just thinking about the last moments of trans people that end this way and that we as a collective society allowed that. I hear often about the 40% meme, how much of that is true I don't know.
I don't hate trans people. I hate the fact that it's so accepted. And you're even treating it as this cool thing that's completely without the negatives that this website harps on and on about.
It's completely unethical not just for puberty blockers and basically child sterilisation to continue. And it might even be more unethical to not speak out about it.
It's like saying to ignore the gulags or the concentration camps because for the average citizen life was fine.

>>18023736
the hypersubjectivists notion of trans should encourage antipsychiatry and validate all "mental illness" as a whole. i always end up really sad that they have an idealist subjective theory and they just use it to "transition of gender". its like they dont know what dynamite they have. i mean, they want to be "normal" they want to be accepted. that is the end point. pretty dissapointing.
trans should encourage all schizophrenics and subjectivists notions but nobody talk about this.
society are obssesed with gender and racism like was obssesed with religion.

>>18023786
Regardless, it was a case which affirms the idea that gender identity is innate.
>>18023772
I'll have you know that I got very interested in hormone therapy and cross-sex identities on my own, thank you very much. I was 10 and lived in a traditional Baptist environment, no one pushed me into what I am today. I didn't even watch porn until I was 13. This wasn't a case of me just being a fem gay kid, I have never been really interested in gay people but intensely interested in being trans. I can go back as far as 4-5 and see signs.

>>18023771
I'm bringing up gender identity within the context of a societal setting.

>>18023786
Okay, but my point is that the reason Money suggested transition is because he thought gender identity is (exclusively) a product of socialization. If a boy with a botched circumstision grew up, he would feel emotional pain etc. so why not transition him into a girl, so he grows up with a female identity and lives a happily life? But what actually happened is the boy developed gender dysphoria anyway.
Of course you can argue that the reason he developed gender dysphoria is that the transition wasn't complete (by creating an artificial vagina) but I take it to be a lot more plausible that identity is built into the brain.

>>18023772
I don't know how many trans people you've actually met, but most aren't androgynous (MTF) - they're typically troons, fat/balding and gay-for-pay. The vast majority will never pass w/o extensive reconstruction, which makes them all the more uncanny to non-fetishists. It's hilariously sad.

>>18019961
Fpbp can we stop talking about this canuck sham?

>>18023796
>it's not really any of your business unless you are looking to date someone
That's my point. If I'm looking to court someone and I'm looking for marriage and a family then I would like to not be led on by someone who knows that and is wasting my time. Maybe trannies should get a face tattoo or something so they're easily identified on the street.

>>18023827
>I'd want to know if a woman was a real woman prior to courting her, if she is capable of bearing children, if her tits are real and if her vagina is a vagina.
You know none of those things from 'woman', and that's okay.
Not all women have booba, or uteruses, or are fertile. That doesn't make them not women in a societal setting.

>>18023835
Ironically they keep invoking the John Money example without realizing that they act just like him - no such thing as gender dysphoria and they just need to get 'over' themselves.
What separates David Reimer's experience from an FTM? Nothing, really, but they think that FTMs should just suck it up and be masculine women. As if that would've been enough for Reimer.

>>18023807
>it's like saying to ignore the gulags or the concentration camps because for the average citizen life was fine.
You think that puberty blockers are the same as concentration camps? The fuck are you talking about?
Anyways, transition results in a marked improvement in the condition of transgender people, especially when started at the appropriate age. I'm not really treating transition as without negatives. It certainly has downsides and it's not for everybody. Clearly though, it is better than the alternative of suffering that trans people without treatment are in.
In any case I don't see why puberty blockers are at all unethical. It seems like a fair middle ground to allow those who are unsure a few more years to make their choice.

>>18019961
he has 160 iq

>>18023880
That's what he got on one of those internet tests lol

>>18023783
Because it requires chemicals and surgery being given to children based upon these people potentially "feeling" a certain gender.

It contradicts how we perceive gender roles as culturally formed, (you know, the basis for suffrage and women in the work place etc).

You can't associate how you feel with your biology, because that contradicts how society has decided to separate biological sex from most societal roles, behaviours and factors of personality.

If you make it about a visual dysphoria, then it is even more superficial and should be taken even less serious, this is not something to give people drugs and a reversed penis over. To treat any other dysphoria you do not play by what the person desires, you treat the urge to fulfill that desire. It's like giving steroids to a guy who thinks his arms aren't big enough. Or a diet plan to a girl who thinks she needs 10 lbs despite being 90lbs already.

You clearly just don't want to understand the point. Because you can't accept you're living a lie. I feel for you. I, compared to many other people, care about you tranny freaks. I want you to be happy and healthy and not mutilating your own genitalia.

>>18023843
If you ask to date someone, then I would say that you have a social duty to tell that person you are trans. Otherwise? It's none of your damn business. Should we mark infertile women? Or women who don't want to date? No, that's ridiculous.

>>18021884
BBBBBBBASED

>>18023844
Pretty sure the phylogenetic underpinnings of our species is predicated on sexual dimorphism. Those primary sex characteristics differentiate the sexes in mammals (generally). The female is the prototype/default human - males are the byproduct of masculinization in utero. Why do you think males have nipples? The absence of one characteristic in a given individual doesn't invalidate the category.

>>18023890
>You can't associate how you feel with your biology
You absolutely can though. Gender roles are not entirely culturally formed, and gender identity is not learned behavior.

> I, compared to many other people, care about you tranny freaks.
LOL

>>18023869
>You think that puberty blockers are the same as concentration camps? The fuck are you talking about?
yes I think that child sterilisation is pretty fucking bad.
yes I think that when you google transgender suicide rate you get "1 in 3" people attempted suicide is a fucking travesty. https://www.suicideinfo.ca/resource/trans-fact-sheet/
you are insane if you don't see this as scary and unethical treatment of a mental illness.
these are people too and deserve to be treated with better care than 'duurr you must be trans so get on these pills'
And please don't reply with the same >transitioning is usually good so anything else is irrelevant

>>18023919
You're on /lit/, you should probably read your sources first:

>What can reduce risk?
>Supportive and strong relationships with family and friends
>Completed medical transition (if medical transition is desired)
>Self-awareness and acceptance
>Access to gender affirming health care
>Not having access to lethal means such as guns or potentially deadly medications
>Having one’s name and pronouns accepted

>>18023844
You're intentionally avoiding the whole truth. It is necessary for a man (or a woman) such as myself to know what he is potentially getting himself into prior to marriage, that includes the state of the vagina or whether I'm circumcised. I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum and you're either not understanding my concerns or don't care.

>>18023937
Then don't date trans women. No one's stopping you?
My point is that gender identity isn't rooted in who you want to reproduce with.

>>18023948
It is.

>>18023915
>Gender roles are not entirely culturally formed
im not they guy you are talking with. but you are just lying at this point. the differentiation of sex and gender is precisely because the cultural part, and you know it.

>>18023956
I want to fuck you. You're a woman.

>>18023931
all those things are from transitioning itself.
What if they were treated from the root cause? What if they explored why they feel this way before changing their life?
What if we treated it in a more nuanced way?
hmm that would cause a lot less suffering huh, and maybe normal people wouldn't be so frightened of the advent of mandatory trans treatments for kids who feels as though they are in the wrong gender.
And maybe you wouldn't be subject to insults from people assuming you're a AGP

>>18023919
The children aren't sterilized. Even if you go on to take estrogen, you can regain your fertility if you want. You cannot get surgeries until you are at the earliest, 18-19.
And blockers generally lower suicidality. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/145/2/e20191725
Denying trans people treatment does not somehow make them less suicidal.
If you have a better solution, I'm all ears. But we don't have anything right now and I doubt we will for a long while.

>>18023919
I thought counseling was a prerequisite prior to HRT? As stated above, dysphoria typically fades post-adolescence (this is because the available data is inflated by acute-onset in BPD teens). Think of it like Pathological Demand Avoidance in r/t ASD - it's just a cope for frail parents.

>>18023895
If my friend asks me what about so and so and I know that person is trans I have a duty to tell my friend. Same goes for if I know that person is infertile or was raped or anything else whatsoever which I determine to be useful information about the person vis a vis dating.

>>18023915
>You absolutely can though. Gender roles are not entirely culturally formed, and gender identity is not learned behavior.
Yes, no shit. But as a society this is the route we have taken. You have the gender theory people to thank for that.

If it was up to me, then pre 1950s male/women roles would be stricty enforced because women and men are men.
There's no feeling about it.
You don't seem to get that gender is the thing that you keep contradicting, but also the only thing that is keeping people from telling you to get over yourselves.

You have one realistic route. Play up to the notion that gender is a spectrum, that we all now mostly accept, or live life as a miserable abomination convincing NO ONE that your superficial biological-mental relationship is valid, or that you even pass.

You're obviously at a crossroads, just don't take the irreversible path. Just be that guy who wears heels and acts girly. Not that "girl" with the "vagina", who gets strangled by a dude who wanted the real thing.

>>18023966
>What if they were treated from the root cause?
Great, what new treatment do you propose? It's better than the ones we've already tried, right?

>What if they explored why they feel this way before changing their life?
Therapy is mandatory before hrt in most places, barring informed consent clinics for adults (which is a different ballpark in my mind).

>What if we treated it in a more nuanced way?
Such as?

>mandatory trans treatments for kids who feels as though they are in the wrong gender.
It's not mandatory. If the kid does not want it they don't have to do it.

>>18023895
We don't mark infertile/celibate women, but we probably should.

>>18024002
>If it was up to me, then pre 1950s male/women roles would be stricty enforced because women and men are men.
There, it would be cultural. You don't have to enforce natural gender roles at all. People will naturally sort themselves into them.

>Play up to the notion that gender is a spectrum, that we all now mostly accept, or live life as a miserable abomination convincing NO ONE that your superficial biological-mental relationship is valid, or that you even pass.
I'm not trans, and I don't know what you even mean to say by this. Gender dysphoria has clear links to biological phenomena like as natal hormone exposure. I wouldn't call it simply "superficial".

>>18024029
Their parents make it mandatory. In the same way spoken SI will have you put under observation, so to will statements regarding gender-confusion have you scrutinized (relative to progressive proximity). Children can be (not are, but can be) easily lead by a convincing adult with authority.

>>18023966
What I think would be best is this:
>Kid, 8-10 yo, experiences anxiety over assigned gender, confides with parents about this. Society doesn't treat this with stigma, so the kid feels safe about doing this
>Parents and kid consult a psychologist. If this persists puberty blockers are prescribed at 11-12 so the kid can explore the possibility of being the opposite gender without feeling rushed by puberty
>If they stop being interested/decide it's not for them, that's fine. They go off of puberty blockers, life goes on.
>If they want to fully transition, they do so at 16, age of consent.
>Surgery at 18 if wanted.
what do you think?

>that would cause a lot less suffering huh, and maybe normal people wouldn't be so frightened of the advent of mandatory trans treatments for kids who feels as though they are in the wrong gender.
This seems to be the root of the problem. A lot of the skepticism of trans treatments appears to be concerned "for the children", but is really based in the discomfort of others

>>18023980
>>18024030
That's dumb but at least you are consistent.
It's really none of your business though whether someone is fertile or was raped before unless it is directly pertinent to the situation at hand. The idea that your mcdonalds cashier has to tell you that she was raped when she was 8 is literally retarded and a hinderance to all parties involved.

>right wing “”””””””””””””intellectuals”””””””””””””””

>>18023976
have you ever been on /lgbt, people there literally ask how to get past it as quick as possible and avoid getting clocked for a fetishist. I've seen blogposts of people cursing out their doctor for recognising them as AGP and rejecting their HRT. Maybe it's stringent and works well enough, but I only worry for those that pass through, and if you've ever met a terrible boomer doctor, then you know people will slip through.
>>18023976
I think so too, people will self medicate and such though.
>>18024029
>>18023968
alright I must admit I obviously have no immediate cure all like some superhero and I doubt you're expecting that. I was merely angryposting at this anon for acting like it's not unethical, it might be all we have as a society, but in it's current incarnation I think trans acceptance unfortunately goes to contribute the likelihood the 'wrong people' will transition and regret it. And I'm lamenting those poor souls.
>>18024092
why so young? there are so many factors to consider and the impressionability of children is one. It's all very scary and no one knows what to do.
that's all I wanted to say

>>18024079
So you're saying that parents can convince their child that they are trans? Really? How many parents WANT a trans child? Very few, by my estimation. Of course, that could happen, but it's not really a deterrent for offering treatment for any other condition. MSBP is already child abuse and is illegal.

>>18023527
Sociology and psychology are just two sides of the same coin anyway, their respective elitism is nonsensical as they fall apart without each other + philosophy to guide them.

>>18024128
>why so young?
Because if they are experiencing legitimate gender dysphoria puberty will make them physically appear closer to their assigned gender. It's why people who start transitioning when they're 40 oftentimes are stuck looking like middle aged guys with nice hair.

>>18024128
>Why so young?
For many, the choice will no longer exist if not given puberty blockers around that age. Not a single soul wants to look like a boomerhon. Puberty blockers until 16 gives them adequate bail out time in my book.

>>18024096
It is my business if I'm looking for a wife or husband and furthermore whatever is my business is determined by what concerns me. It's due diligence. If I want to ask on the grounds that it concerns me a potential mate if she was raped then I will ask, and she can refuse to tell me or tell me. You shouldn't be telling people what is and what is not of concern to them.

>>18023890
>You clearly just don't want to understand the point. Because you can't accept you're living a lie. I feel for you. I, compared to many other people, care about you tranny freaks. I want you to be happy and healthy and not mutilating your own genitalia.
lol @ assuming I am a tranny because I argue for the pro trans position. I am actually a man of considerable handsomeness.
The best way to understand the point is to imagine if you woke up tomorrow to discover that you had a female body. How would you feel about it? Clearly emotional discomfort, a desire to return to your previous body etc. Now imagine someone comes to you and tells you the real problem is your desire to go back to your previous body, and you need to be "treated" so you feel comfortable living as a woman. You obviously don't want that, you just want your body back. And even if you were fine with both solutions, there is currently no medical way of changing your gender identity, the only solution is to change the body to more closely match that of your gender identity. And even that is only successful if you are feminine enough to pass after transition, if you are too masculine you are fucked either way.

>>18024167
>>18024159
ok it's unfortunate that I might be talking to trans people when I say this, but I don't think true gender dysphoria is as common as you think from your perspective. And erring on the conservative side of older transitions is gonna be a lot more popular.
Especially when even the feint possibility of sterility is mentioned. That's one thing that scares me half to death as a normie.

>>18024178
That has literally NOTHING to do with marking infertile people.
Do you see literally see every woman as "potential mate" first, and person second? A woman is not your potential mate until you start dating, until then it's not your fucking business because its not your fucking mate, mate.

>>18024130
I'm not saying they can, I'm saying (a relatively small fraction) already have. It's not MSbP, per se. Transitioned adults want their offspring to transition as well, which (some) members of the community actively encourage. There's also the rampant pedophilia (see: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.jsonline.com/amp/4730204001)) that plagues the community as well, but that's another matter.

>>18024207
Isn't as common*

>>18024210
You're strawmanning again. Stop doing that.

>>18024256
You don't get it, do you?
It's not important if someone is not your mate, and they aren't your mate if you aren't going to date.

>>18024210
the purpose in life for a lot of people is having children. You wouldn't even exist if not for that fact. It's innately human, and there's no getting away from the fact that normies are scared by their children being infertile and not having the same purpose in life as them.

>>18024225
>I'm saying (a relatively small fraction) already have. It's not MSbP, per se. Transitioned adults want their offspring to transition as well, which (some) members of the community actively encourage.
Well, that's what we have doctors for isn't it? In any case that's not exactly a common thing.

>pedophilia
Not really true.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8008535/

>>18024319
Whatever you want to believe, I too can cite old articles:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11501300/

>>18019950
aka pluto in scorpio

So many cringe roasties in this thread

>>18024386
That's the issue of gays getting raped not gays raping...
That's a can of worms that I'm not really interested in opening. Anyways, calling gays pedophiles because they are more at risk for getting raped as children is ridiculous.

>>18024386
don't you think the whole "gays are pedophiles" thing is a little played out?

>>18024423
The data suggests that there's a preponderance of asymmetric relationships formed in queer communities that are predicated on youth subversion, I never suggested that gays are more likely to be pedophiles, only that it plagues the community (because the youth element is so pervasive).

>>18019961
Nah

>>18023380
>is trying to be
that's where you lost me
Peterson fancies himself some sort of messiah. That's why seeing him crumble was so satisfying.

>>18023880
he's still an idiot

>>18024192
Wanted to reply to this. If I woke up tomorrow as a woman I'd be fine with it, to the extent I would be the same person and I can predict that. I don't choose to be a man because I feel manly, I choose to be a man because that's what I am. I don't have a choice in the matter and feeling upset over it would only make me unhappy.

>>18025315
>Catalog
thats because you're unaware of your own privilege

>>18025232
Proof he sees himself like that?

>>18025359
yes

>>18025507
Oh good
Please keep repeating that next JP hate thread

>>18019950
I'm so tired of seeing that face of shit. Incidentally, I see it only on here. He isn't famous in any part of the world.

>>18025526
will do

>>18025359
>I don’t know, Dad, but I think I have discovered something that no one else has any idea about, and I’m not sure I can do it justice. Its scope is so broad that I can see only parts of it clearly at one time, and it is exceedingly difficult to set down comprehensibly in writing…. Anyways, I’m glad you and Mom are doing well. Thank you for doing my income tax returns.

>>18019950
Do these people look divine to you?

Everyone itt needs to wash their dicks

>>18025576
He is putting on a show for his everyman low iq audience. Literally who cares.
Everytime I come to lit its the same thread. The same retards recalling his zizek rap battle as the most they've ever hands free jizzed. If you seething marxists would stop giving a shit so would everyone else and realise his is bland incarnate. Everything he says comes down to
>kermit: and take some damn responsibility
If he thought he was the messiah and that he was saying something new he would try not being so careful to be so middle of the road

>>18025730
>heh that's not his true thoughts he's just a charlatan, checkmate!

>>18025730
That's from maps of meaning, not the books where he figured out how to milk retards.

>>18025746
Him having an ego or enjoying his ideas too much doesnt mean hes saying this stupid shit disingenuously

>>18025711
did He?

>>18025776
doesn't mean he's not saying it disingenuously!

>>18025794
Just say you dont like him personally and we can all stop having these threads

>>18021884
Bravo, sir, bravo!

>>18019950
Everything before
>evolving into the next stage of being
is fine and correct. Everything after is off the walls retarded

>one guy defends peterson saying he's disingenious
>another guy defends him saying he's not disingenious
What's even going on?

>>18025835
I'm not the one who keeps making them ;)

>>18025850
midwits

>>18025785
>brown
That does not look semitic at all. It's just dumb niggers believing everything outside of the US is inhabited by brown people.

>>18023080
>we're all vain hypocrites
Wrong, some people do their best to give back and be humble, and some live what they say no matter what. Not everyone lives up this standard but it doesn't mean we should stop pushing them to.

>>18019950
Pseudo-philosophical conservatism