/lit/ - Literature

Finkelstein, I believe.

Balfour declaration

>>17995216
I hate you so much I'm going to write an essay about you, and to make it even worse for you, I'm going to fill it full of spelling mistakes so when you're reading it and experience the most critical of all criticisms that you will know that even idiots think of you as an idiot.

>>17995187
Image and Reality of the Israel–Palestine Conflict by Norman Finkelstein

>>17995187
Israel belongs to the Jews. That's all you need to know.

>>17995822
I know the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Ok can someone knowledgeable please answer this question for me:

Besides the ramblings of a schizophrenic murderous pedophile who thought he could talk to god, what does the Palestinian claim of ownership of the area known as the holy land rest on?

>>17996060
You're kidding right? Israel was founded on stolen land in like 1948 over holocaust gibs-me-dat claims.

>>17996081
Didn’t mention Israel at all friend. Simply asked what the Palestinian claim rests on. Can’t seem to get an answer that isn’t ideological.

>>17996088
They lived there

>>17996103
Didn’t Jews live there too? And Christians?

>>17996088
That’s their homeland.
A lot of the Jews in Palestine are simply European immigrants. Same story in the US basically

Israel has done nothing wrong. Badass country that stands up for its people

>>17996108
But Jews lived there too yes? And Christians? Honestly I’m not pro Jew or anything I’m skeptical of the Holocaust but I was of the opinion that all the abrahamic weirdos lived there why is it palestinian land?

>>17996103
A lot of people lived there. Think harder.

>>17996153
They lived there until a bunch of people claiming to be Jews moved in and kicked them out.

goliath: life and loathing in greater israel

>>17996167
So it was only occupied by Palestinians and no Jews? No Christians?

>>17996153
There was once a little kingdom for the Israelites. That was swept away centuries ago. Later the Romans took over. Later still the locals fell to the Islamic invaders and most converted to that. There was a minority always coming and going of the other faiths, but then the crusades made things hostile for a times.
The modern state of Israel is capitalist invention and a could have been handled better, but states are all pernicious evils. With the decline of the US, so too does Israel. A terrible colonialist experiment

>>17996104
Palestinian Jews and Christians, yes.
>>17996181
Dude, what do think a “Palestinian” is? It’s a country not a religion.

>>17996196
So the Palestinian claim of the holy land rests on the islamic conquest?

>>17995187
For the early years check out 1948 by Benny Morris, it’s a very comprehensive guide to the initial conflict and will give you a basis for its history. (This includes a giant caveat, the book has several Israeli biases. It doesn’t ruin the book, it covers pretty much everything and lays the facts out clearly, but the author comes to some biased conclusions you need to be aware of. Ie him saying that only some Arab forces had clear, given orders to expel people from villages when the text and sources shown clearly show every side was clearing villages intentionally. Still, it’s comprehensive and I trust you’re smart enough to realize what’s a biased conclusion and what’s not.)

>>17996198
People call that rock thing holy, yeah.

>>17996198
And the fact that they lived there for centuries before getting violently kicked out by immigrant European Jews, and slowly genocided further over the course of the past half-dozen decades.

>>17996224
Ok cool. And again, I’m not a Zionist I am genuinely asking this question - if the Palestinian claim on the land is based on the Islamic conquest then it’s reasonable to assume that the ability to take and hold the land with violence legitimises the claim. If that’s the case, does Israel’s repeated defence of the land through military action not also validate their claim under the same criteria?

>>17996234
>I’m not a Zionist I am genuinely asking this question
Yeah, I know, you said you were a holocaust denier. Their claim is that they’re natives. Someone doesn’t like that they’re muslim, tough shit. That’s just how it happened in history. Like the name Palestine. States aren’t legitimate because they use violence to enforce their fairytales. The bloodshed and torture is outrageous and you can’t really blame victims of it for wanting to lash out at their tormentors.

>>17996234
The arab conquest did not genocide or displace people from their land, any land claim based on such actions is invalid, exactly like America and Israel’s.
>Israel defending their land
>repeated poorly-disguised “I have no stake in this I’m just asking questions” sophistry
This is pathetic dude, I get that you’re Israeli and we’re not asking you guys to all die and roll over to a Palestinian reconquest, but can you stop carpet bombing children and illegally settling your citizens in foreign territory to push an ethnic genocide on the people you agressively invaded as an American puppet state? Thanks.

>>17996265
Ok so the issue is that the Palestinians are natives to the area but the Israelis are European immigrants?

>>17996268
I’m not an Israeli I’m not a fan of Israel at all I’m just not a fan of arabs either. If it was up to me we drop a few nukes on the whole region and shoot any survivors. I just don’t understand why one group of people are entitled to live in a shitty part of the desert and another group aren’t that isn’t a partisan argument from a yid sympathiser or a mahomedan

>>17996265
>States aren’t legitimate because they use violence to enforce their fairytales

that is in fact the only thing that makes them legitimate

>>17996300
It really isn’t legitimizing. It’s good enough reason for them, but it isn’t real. It’s a fairytale.

>>17996295
I don’t know why Americans love living in ignorance so much. Seriously, what is the appeal? It’s not even just “ignorance is bliss,” because you still stick your noses into everything. What is the appeal of being uneducated? I really don’t get it.

>>17996315
Wouldn’t that apply to the arabs as well?

>>17996274
That and the fact they came there in droves and made the natives second rung citizens (or non-citizens, even, despite having lived there their entire lives).

Israel is in a very good position right now, with weak neighbours and Palestinians unable to galvanize their efforts for statehood. The latter of which is unachievable through legal means as it'll *at best* result in a semi-fertile strip of land without access to the mediterranean. This plays right into the hands of the Zionists as they know the Palestinians aren't interested in accepting such a rigged compromise.

Settlers are again beneficial to Israel. Doesn't matter if the Israeli govt destroys your house and displaces your family in order to let settlers squat the land, as soon as you do anything the media will be all over and you're just another uncivilized Arab.

So yeah, very good game of chess from the Zionists.

>>17996300
Stop posting, I hate agreeing with butterfly on an argument point.

>>17996321
The Saudis? Yeah.

>>17996319
I’m not American I’m from Australia. We’re pretty ignorant here and our media is atrocious. That’s why Im asking, because the people I ask in my own circles are biased by their political affiliations.

>>17996322
Oh yeah, to add to this: the conundrum is that Arabs have no legal (or anything the West views as justifiable) means to dedend their cause, so they resort to violence which of course is a win for the Israeli propaganda machine. It's either let your land be taken over slowly or fight back in the only useful way and give Israel a pretext to use even more excessive force.

>>17996322
Ok so who did the arabs conquer when they took the area for the time it took for them to become native to the area? How long do people need to occupy an area before they can claim it forever? If the Jews manage to hold onto Israel for that amount of time would that make them legitimate? I really don’t understand at all it seems like a lot of double standards

>>17996321
We’re talking about the bull civilian populace that actually lives in and defines these regions, not a change in state governance. Nobody’s life really changed aside from some taxation shifts and more stress on public building and infrastructure after the Caliphate took control of the Levant. After Israel took over the Levant has been an internal warzone for nearly 70 years. Civilians have been displaced en-mass, and the ones who stay live under the fear and sound of missile bombardments regularly.
Do you see the difference?

>>17996334
Why would your response to not understanding a volatile and complex situation be to suggest just dropping nuclear weapons on entire ethnic groups of people?

>>17996343
>Do you see the difference?
Is it because the arabs fought Israel but no one fought the caliphate? Or because the caliphate are native to Arabia but Israel is European?

>>17996364
It was more hyperbole to underline the fact I don’t have a dog in the fight at all, and am just trying to understand the two sides perspectives on more detail

>>17995187
The Protocols

>>17995187
Yezid Sayigh, Armed Struggle and the Search for State
The book is more than 700 pages with a bibliography of more than 200 pages, but it is the single most detailed and authoritative source on the Palestinian situation. Other than that, you can read Theodor Hanf's book on the Lebanese Civil War, Coexistence in Wartime Lebanon: Decline of a State and Rise of a Nation.

>>17996365
Do you have brain damage? Unironic question.
I feel like you are not actually listening to any of the responses in the thread if that is still the extent of your understanding of the situation.

>>17995822
>Btfos outnumbered tribesmen with the latest equipment and war veterans

>>17996342
>who did the arabs conquer when they took the area
Native Canaanites with which the Arabs mixed. DNA research suggests that the Palestinians are genetically ties with modern Jews, which suggests continuous habitation of the region.
It's not that they suddenly appeared there and supplanted another people, and I fail to see how this is a legitimate argument against a claim to a land.

>If the Jews manage to hold onto Israel for that amount of time would that make them legitimate?
You'll find a wide range of opinions on this but the fact remains that millions of people have been displaced from their homeland, and there's little they can do about it. So eventually Israel will have its conquest viewed as legitimate, since time will make most forget. The Arab world is already warming up to Israel, for example (not that they cared much about Palestinians in the first place).

>>17996386
Jews and military prowess don't go along, anon.

>>17996380
Are insults necessary? I am genuinely asking for clarification because the discussion around this is so partisan that if i don’t automatically swallow perspective I am a shill for the other side. I get that Israel’s claim rests on being given land by the UK and I would say that it’s fair they were invading it when they set up the state of Israel but based on my reading it seems like the Palestinian claim rests on military conquests i.e. might is right and if that’s the case does that same principle not apply to Israel? The whole non native European thing makes sense because it’s a factor that differentiates the Islamic conquest from the jewish one I am just trying to understand

>>17996412
>seems like the Palestinian claim rests on military conquests
It rests on them having lived there, with no other candidates.

>>17995187
Most of the impact on the world is via Jewish control of US foreign policy. I recommend the book Big Israel over the more popular The Israel Lobby.

>>17996437
Shut the fuck up dickwad.

>>17995187
>people are actually defending zionists here
Palestinians that have no power on the world stage >>>> more jewish control of the world.

>>17996464
They're defending rationality. Do you want another islamic hellhole?

>>17996392
Thank you for supplying context and information rather than insults and partisan talking points! Very refreshing!
What I am taking from your post is that it’s not conquest but longevity as evidenced by genetic research that validates Palestinian claims to the land, would that be correct?

>>17996470
Its already a hellhole zionist.

>>17996470
Yes.

>>17996484
>would that be correct?
Yes, it's much harder to falsify too. Israeli archaeologists and historians have reason to twist their findings into a favourable narrative for Zionist goals. That is exactly what they do, too.

>>17996381
Thank you very much, anon.

>>17996515
Excellent! Thank you taking pity on my retardation and supplying information rather than calling me a Jew lover like the other fuckhead did. Honestly you’re the first person who hasn’t either gone one about the civilised versus the savage or talked about some abrahamic nonsense, kudos.

>>17996515
Which is still a ridiculous argument to make, "my ancestors lived here 2000 years ago so it's my land not yours", I wonder if anyone actually believes this.

Honestly it's impossible not to be a complete doomer about this topic, Finkelchad basically ruined his life over this, no progress is being made and Israel is completely disinterested in peace and the US doesn't have an alternative in their foreign policy, in 50 years time I honestly see most of the Palestinians moved out or dead.

>>17996542
No worries. I suggest reading about the history of the region and making one's own conclusions, if you really want to delve deeper.

>>17996557
I’ve tried, most of the books I’ve read are either super partisan and only seemed to raise more questions that as this thread proves are difficult to get answers from because every asshole wants to virtue signal. The genetic aspect is a good jumping off point, because I’ve often seen the argument that Israel isn’t even a Jewish state it’s Hungarian Jews who got pogromed out of most euro countries and ended up in america who then persuaded the UK to hand over mandatory palestine and then whole right of return thing.

>>17996648
If you want to understand the Israeli perspective, you should probably just go read the work of Ben-Gurion, Theodore Herzl, and Vladimir Jabotinsky yourself. The whole point is that the presence of Jews in foreign lands must necessarily lead to one of two things:
1. The Jews retain their culture and customs and are hated and discriminated against for it.
2. The Jews assimilate, and thereby disappear from the Earth.
In order to avoid these outcomes, the Jews must establish an independent national state with a permanent Jewish majority. While the first Zionists were more interested in putting together the basic infrastructure necessary for this undertaking than deciding where, specifically, to establish the state, the moment they turned their attention to the question of location they almost unanimously decided on the Land of Israel. The legitimacy of their rule rests on the same claims as any other form of nationalism: unbroken occupation from the beginning of time. This claim takes multiple forms, including weak forms that emphasize the continuity of a Jewish presence and the centrality of the land to the Jewish people and strong forms that claim that the Jews were all expelled, but the basic claim is the same.

Palestinian claims are a little more complicated, because they are not always couched in the language of nationalism and are generally placed within the framework of broader groupings, e.g. the Levant, or the Arab nation, or the Muslim Ummah. The basic point is that the Palestinians also claim unbroken occupation, while also noting that the Jewish state was created by means of a settler colonial mission that relied initially on European immigrants, but, after the establishment of the State of Israel, came to rely on non-Ashkenazi Jews to bolster its population. In other words, the Palestinians rely on a multi-layered framework that includes unbroken occupation of the Palestinians specifically, the right of a broader group, such as the Arab nation or the Muslim Ummah, to the land of Palestinian more generally, and the illegitimacy of Zionist claims to the land.

Be aware that much of what is written on the topic in English is intended to push public opinion in a specific direction. If you are deeply interested in this issue, you will have to learn the languages of the region and study the primary sources yourself.

Why are semites so fucking ugly?

>>17996060
You're strawmanning again. Stop it or I'll whip you.

Here's a book which goes some way to explain the distinction between Zionists and Jews, and explains most of the Zionists are American Christians who should know better but really don't.

The Holy Land belongs to the Crusaders.
Support our Christian bros that are unfortunately a minority assailed on both sides by enemies.

>>17995187
Islamic jihad is not confined to Israel. Look what they are doing to African nations - just terrible.

>>17996449
Wow, sensitive much? If Jews don't like it, that's how you know a book is good.

>>17996974
Their twisted visages are the mark of their covenant with the Demiurge.

>>17996449
Israel completely controls our foreign policy in the ME. Why are you so asshurt, fag?

>>17996265
Butterfly, you’ll never be as pretty as her. Even in your prime, you were less than her right shoulder, and now, everyday, you age more and more ugly.

>>17997880
You’ll never be as pretty as Israel Shahak

>>17996315
literally all states are founded and held based on fairytales and force

>>17996319
its culturally intentional
if you want to be an intellectual you have to do a lot of digging. we aren't associated with quality information here. it's mostly retardation (i mean this as per the actual definition of retarding), obscuring information, propaganda, and the next drama trend that will yank your attention.
its probably a capitalist (corporatist) invention, but i also sort of think that being in a multicultural society ends up being like a social warzone where everyone gets egotistical and it reduces ones desire to open up to other voices. everyone becomes the "outgroup".

so you take the current state of capitalism, mixed with materialism, mixed with so many different groups vying for position, power, or representation, and yeah you get a lot of social dissociation where its a slow threat in "understanding others" lest you wish to give up your own heritage, identity, or culture.

there's so many grifters right now i honestly have i hard time empathizing with anyone. they will make a story and cue emotions and everyone will put them on a pedestal no matter what.

>>17998370
Duh.

>>17995187
Islam guarantees eternal conflict. There's no actual Israel vs Palestine conflict due to Hamas and Hezbollah being funded by Iran and Qatar.

>>17996265
>States aren’t legitimate because they use violence to enforce their fairytales.

This is an excellent summary of the entirety of human history. Please inform us which higher power granted you the authority to decide which group should survive.

>>17998779
What groups are you grouping here?

I was going to respond, but I will not enrich threads with the butterfly-schizo present.

>>17995822

I'm pretty sure the "master race" got rekt in 40 just by a modified shower.