/lit/ - Literature

>>17965630
It's refuted by the simple fact that a post-scarcity world cannot exit, so you're always going to have competition for the scarce resources and people willing to "slave away" for them.

>>17965630
but marx is right, capitalism had lead to socialism and post-great reset will lead to communism. UBI will allow us to consume the products and adopt the identities that appeal to us most without having to work

This >>17965718 is how naive these faggots are.
They think companies would just replace their workers with robots without using international law to stack the deck in their favor.
They think pseudo-scalable killer drone swarms won't destroy democracy.

Socialists don't believe in welfareism or sharing.
They believe that businesses should be structured in a way so that all employees are joint owners of the business. And one should only be able to own property that one personally uses and takes advantage of - be that in terms of homes or in business.

The point is to organise the economy in a way so that sharing and redistribution are not necessary.

Now there are certainly limitations to this set of ideas - innovation without markets is a big one - innovation generally develops around wanting to fuck someone else over - or to stop them fucking you over. But in a world becoming ravaged by ecological disaster - maybe innovation is a problem.


Repeatedly building strawmen only to tear them down again is fun i'm sure.

>>17965840
>Socialists don't believe in welfareism or sharing.
yet they wail endlessly about muh health care and increased gibs
> But in a world becoming ravaged by ecological disaster - maybe innovation is a problem.
great summation of the reactionary tendency in leftists

>>17965718
>>17965840
Leftism does not work.

>>17965630
Its a world with out man-child's who understand that you don't have to damage property cause it doesn't belong to you.

>>17965630
Marx is someone who spells out the secret premises of the ruling ideology so clearly that they are an embarrassment for the ruling ideology itself

>>17965630
>Imagine believing that randomly sharing things wouldn't get taken advantage of
That sounds like a ridiculous belief indeed! What does this have to do with Marxism?

>>17965840
Socialism is for bums and drug addicts

This applies to christianity. Of course, marxism is comparatively shallow and effectively filled with unintelligible gobledygook that makes people with common sense cringe, but hey, what's the difference between St. Thomas Aquinus from Robin DiAngelo?

>>17966239
Meds. Now.

>>17965630
Marxists are not against personal property. You wouldn't have to share your toothbrush, or your house. You definetely would have to share the means of production (which is what they call "private property")

>>17966252
Dilate

>>17965857
Avoiding extinction is sooo reactionary

>>17965630
Communism appeals to losers so they advocate for equality for their own benefit

>>17965630
Communism is a mind virus that prevents society from focusing forward
Every time you have prosperoussociety you get bitter lazy losers bitching about inequality and since they are a majority in democracy they always win and bring the country to collapse

>>17966341
>inequality and since they are a majority in democracy they always win and bring the country to collapse
Great system you have where the collapse is all but guaranteed.

>>17966266
I wonder how much time it will take for this to be abused by people with little scruples. I bet there will be a system where the citizen denounces subversives. I'd oust my neighbour so fast and get his apartment for my cousin...

no wait, that's exacly what happened

>>17965630
>randomly sharing things
And this is what happens when you let mouthbreathers use real people's technology
>>17965688
>a post-scarcity world cannot exit
It already does, it's just populated by greedy little maggots like you and OP

muh private domicile is a very important principle for western leftists because, while they'd love a heckin revolution, they wouldn't want the plebs to seize their parents' million dollar property that they're inheriting.

>>17966364
That's why democracy is cancer and average retard who does not pay taxes should have no say in politics

>>17966369
>Abolish the family unit next time Communism is tried.
What's the problem? Even Plato advocated as much.

>>17966378
>>a post-scarcity world cannot exit
>It already does, it's just populated by greedy little maggots like you and OP
kek, just because nobody will be in danger of starving eventually, doesn't mean people will stop wanting more, what are you gonna do, destroy human ambition and individuality?
Oh wait, you're probably a transhumanist hedonist, so i guess the answer is yes

>>17966341
>Communism is a mind virus
and like all highly contagious mind viruses it's based around some fallacies that sound good if you don't think about it too critically

>>17966364
> Great system you have where the collapse is all but guaranteed.
Great ideology you have when the people who follow it collapsing OUR system and fucking theirs up is all but guaranteed

>>17966369
>I wonder how much time it will take for this to be abused by people with little scruples.
You mean exactly as it is now, in whatever political system?
Take your /pol/ shitposting threads back to /pol/

>>17966380
everyone pays taxes idiot. The communist also believe that the bourgeoise democracy is cancer and is all smoke and mirrors.

>>17966461
Nobody cares what communists believe, just go back to twitter, larper.

>>17966399
>Great ideology you have when the people who follow it collapsing OUR system and fucking theirs up is all but guaranteed
Great system YOU have where due to alienation people will get radicalized(in both ways) and collapse the system is all but guaranteed.

>>17966465
lol sneed more

>>17966473
>Great system YOU have where due to alienation people will get radicalized(in both ways) and collapse the system is all but guaranteed.
Great followers YOU have when they're almost exclusively whiny, wide-eyed idealistic young people filled with slave morality resentment towards the successful, and who continuously fail to produce any results except collapsing capitalist countries and installing far worse brutal dictatorships instead

>>17966461
Most communists also believe that Moses Mordechai Marx Levy's name was actually Karl Marx, what's your point?

>>17965630
>randomly sharing things

>>17966493
>Great followers YOU have when they're almost exclusively whiny, wide-eyed idealistic young people filled with slave morality resentment towards the successful, and who continuously fail to produce any results except collapsing capitalist countries and installing far worse brutal dictatorships instead
Great System you have which all but certains the existence of people who collapse YOUR system. I wonder if marx, schumpeter etc wrote something about this?

>>17966549
>Moses Mordechai Marx Levy
Most idiots also believe in some jewish world order conspiracy, what's your point?

Imagine still defending Objectivist circlejerking after the big fuckup of 2008

>>17966587
>Government fucks up the economy like it always does
>See, you shouldn't be objectivist at all!
You'd have to be retarded not be a Randian in 2021

>>17966587
>B.BU..BUT THAT'S HOW THE REAL WORLD REALLY WORKS ANON.

>>17966587
Imagine...

>>17966595
LMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO

>>17966585
Right. Idiots.

>>17966610
Why be so envious towards Jews and their sucess?

>>17966607
Guess who still is on bank notes?

If I'd find a diamond on the floor with zero effort then according to the labour theory of value it's worth nothing, while if I'd put in all efforts to build a giant pile of reeking shit for 3 days I should be payed handsomely. i dont think anyone argues that labour is not a critical factor in value, but the idea that labour is the singular determination is just silly. It’s the mental trick of the humanists who determined beforehand that workers were important, but since workers have only their work, they tried to make a price 100% about the work of the worker, ie how long does a worker needs to produce a good.

It’s the usual hypocrisy of the atheist who tries to find a justification to his innate prejudices lol. It’s all retroactive.

>>17966607
>MUH 800 ZILLION MEANS CAPITALISM IS INFALLIBLE AND WE MUST ALL KNEEL BEFORE THE MARKET, AND SACRIFICE OUR HEALTH, AND OUR ENVIRONMENT FOR IT
>LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, INFIDEL! LOOK AT THEM! THAT’S THE FREE MARKET PUNISHING US FOR THE ULTIMATE SIN OF DISOBEYING IT! NOW FEED IT YOUR CHILDREN, LEST IT GETS VERY ANGRY ONCE MORE!

>>17965630
At this point everyone with a brain knows that the left is incapable of creating a political system that works; how is this still an interesting topic of discussion to so many people? Is it totally sustained by people who just found out about it within the last year?

>>17966619
Huh? Who says I'm envious? But don't you think it's a little strange that they are extremely overrepresented in positions of power?
After all Israel has an average IQ of what? 90?

>>17965630
What's the main argument given that EE, Russia and China's attemp at communism wasn't "real communism" so people want to try it again?

>>17966650
Probably the constant failure of economic experts and managers, and the completely empty consumer culture that spawned from c(r)apitalism

>>17965630
sharing is marxism?

>>17966664
In a completely deranged world where everything is finacialized, yes, it is

this is not literature. also, i think nietzsche said something along the lines of "the most destructive attack on an idea is a poor argument in favor of it."
i think this is a bunkerchan shill

>>17966587

you conveniently forgot that the goberment of Bill Clinton in the 90s wanted to hype the dream of ''everyone should get a home'', so bankers viewed this as goberment will do anything to back up the housing bonds, which is why those bonds were seen as never risky, then bankers pushed them on their institutional clients, to get fat fees from those, & the bubble was humongous. Then it exploded because GDP will never rise like a fucking bubble.
1998: Sec. Andrew Cuomo Defends Affirmative Action Mortgage Policy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWOPDN5Va0
Andrew Cuomo admits "affirmative action" determined housing policy during his tenure at HUD. New York's new governor defiantly explains how riskier loans with likely a higher default rate would be encouraged under the Clinton Administration. Of course the same policies were subsequently followed by the Bush Administration.
So to avoid the housing collapse, we are supposed to believe the SEC or some other group of regulators were supposed to have had the spine to overrule the stated Clinton Administration official policy on mortgage finance at the time? These regulators presumably were also supposed to have stood up to Congress, mainstream economists, academia & the entire media establishment?


25 People to Blame for the Financial Crisis
The good intentions, bad managers & greed behind the meltdown
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html
President Clinton's tenure was characterized by economic prosperity & financial deregulation. Among his biggest strokes of free-wheeling capitalism was the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, a cornerstone of Depression-era regulation. He also signed the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, which exempted credit-default swaps from regulation. In 1995 Clinton loosened housing rules by rewriting the Community Reinvestment Act, which put added pressure on banks to lend in low-income neighborhoods.

>>17966279
And unregulated Capitalism only appeals to selfish cock suckers who have no empathy for their fellow citizens and the welfare of greater society or their nation.

>>17966650
Because the so-called "capitalism" is nothing but a meaningless term used by sociopathic jews to gaslight normal people into revolting against their roots, culture and society and give up their life for an inane utopia(which in reality will result in nothing but a shadow dictatorship where the ruling elite will hold no responsibility for the power they wield).
In the leftist delusions "capitalism" is whatever bad thing thing had happened. The spanish murderous psychopatic anarchists? CAPITALISM! USSR? CAPITALISM! Mao, Pol Pot, Castro etc? CAPITALISM! Trotskyist neoconservatism? CAPITALISM!
The truth is that leftism is a mind virus that makes it subjects completely oblivious to reality, delusional psychopatic demagogues.
Everything bad they have ever pointed out in so-called "capitalist" societies is a product of the destructive nature of the regime of popular sovereignty. And their solutions have always been to only further destroy society.

>>17966751
But what you describe wouldn't be Marxism which is inherently international, you know that, right?

>>17966393
>Keeps crying about endless plastic trinkets
>G-guys commies are so stupid, it could never work in the real world
You fucktards are pathetic

>>17966757
Capitalism is the best system there is - it works because it actually knows what consumers want.

>>17966664
Sharing is stealing
Not starving is a mindvirus
Being thin and healthy is subversion
Living in a community and caring about the real people you meet, much less leaving your sheltered basement just means you are a tool who gets taken advantage of

These /pol/tards are morons

>>17966883
There's no such thing as capitalism, it's a term that can only be derived from the concept of class conflict in the context of dialectical materialism.
Those were all quite literally refuted epistemologically and empirically by the marginalists and the existentialists. Still using the word capitalism means giving marxists credibility where they deserve none. The only thing they deserve are helicopter rides

>>17966901
>sharing is stealing
Communists don't share, they confiscate.
>Not starving is a mindvirus
But communist countries are notorious for their food shortages.
>Being thin
That's a result of the food shortages.
>and healthy is subversion
Isn't the life expectancy in (former) communist countries much lower than the capitalist ones though?
>Living in a community and caring about the real people you meet
That's not communism. In fact communists are very much against 'communities' be it the family or the nation, aren't they?

>>17966925
There's no such thing as "dialectical materialism." Its just made up non-sense by communists. Anything, and everything, can be dissolved into ontological nihilism.

>>17966875
What the fuck are you babbling about

Communists believe in equality and wealth distribution until it stops benefiting them

>>17966401
Yes, but at least there is such a thing like trickle down economics. I'd rather have that than your brilliant view of centralized decision power on the government ending up in dumbfuckery is what tanked the world because of a chinese meme

>>17965630
You can't refute him

>>17966380
America isn't a democracy and it never was intended to be one.

>>17966272
seethe and cope.

>>17965718
>great-reset
I think you misspelled global nuclear holocaust. This post brought to you by J Posadas-gang

>>17967329
muh republic

>>17965630
You can't just bait post your way into having Marx explained to you. You have to go read Capital just like everyone else

>>17967379
Correct.

Don't be cringe about it.

>>17965630
Of course you're going to have people who overindulge and overconsume. The solution to that type of person is extermination.

>>17967444
Which includes all black people and all leftists who rely on government handouts.

>>17966883
>it actually knows what consumers want.

>>17967482
>foodstamps
>overconsumes

>>17967482
More whites are on welfare than blacks

>>17967689
Source?

>>17966239
Christianity is not a political rubric, it encourages personal charity, which is very different.

>>17967689
1. Which country are you talking about?

2. quantity of whites in that country?
quantity of whites on welfare?
white in country / whites on welfare ratio

3. quantity of blacks in that country?
quantity of blacks on welfare?
blacks in county / blacks on welfare ratio

4. specify clearly what you define as white and what you define as black.

>>17967373
based.

>>17965630
>Imagine believing that randomly sharing things wouldn't get taken advantage of.
Where does marx advocate for this

>>17967689
Per capita is a more useful metric. So are you stupid or are you intentionally misleading?

>>17967770
>Where does marx advocate for this
OP's mind

>>17966239
>Of course, marxism is comparatively shallow and effectively filled with unintelligible gobledygook
eheh
>Robin DiAngelo
Literally who

>>17967770
From each according his ability motherfucker

>>17967816
The other half being...?

>>17967770
Marx did not ever explain how communism is supposed to work, which is probably tactically savvy seeing as anyone who tries to do that fairly quickly appears like a retard as they reinvent the state and classes while trying to call them other names.

>>17967829
To each according to his need you monkey. I thought you'd have the capacity to remember this quote but I guess spelling it out was necessary.

>>17966393
If aimless pursuit of unneccessary things is human ambition and individuality then it might as well be destroyed. There is a crucial difference in the value of objects of desire - if they are unneccessary, one should learn to stop desiring them (the desire in it's current state is learned). If you learn to stop cooming and consooming, you don't destroy your ambition and individuality, it's actually quite the opposite in both theory and practice.

>>17967876
>I am going to decide for everyone what is necessary for them and force them with violence if necessary to behave how I think they should
honestly what is wrong with you people

Lol, you act shocked now when it has always been the status quo of every society.

>>17967901
Hm, weird, I never mentioned violence or deciding for others. Merely pointing out that people desire unneccessary objects and that it leads nowhere; in fact, if you free yourself from it, you will benefit and if everyone did that, the whole society would benefit. I didn't even read Marx, this is all ancient greek ethics.

OP here. I see my retarded bait thread is still going strong.

>>17967816
Explain to me what part of ‘from each according to his ability, to each according to his need’ advocates just randomly sharing things

>>17968073
if a guy refuses to work because he says he is disabled or something how do you determine how much he owes and how much he is owed

>>17968085
>he says he is disabled
In my country we have literal tables listing hundreds of medical conditions to calculate how much you are disabled. Can you guess what they're used for?
>determine how much he owes and how much he is owed

Pic is used to calculate how disabled are you according to how your best ear is damaged compared to your worst ear

>>17968073
according to that, if a doctor and a janitor have the same needs, they would be paid the same

>>17965630
Imagine believing there was no poverty or crime in the soviet union

>>17967935
> didnt even read marx
> shilling communism
oh boy lads we have a live one

>>17968475
What kind of demons are those behind him

>>17968475
It's literally greek ethics, nothing to do with communism except by tangent. If you're too dumb for discussions, maybe an hero is the best course of action. Certainly better than being a retarded NPC.

>>17968586
w*men, stay away from them anon

>>17965630
That's not what Marx says

>>17965630
Pls kys

>>17968629
>>17968659
t.

>>17968693
I never said that either

>>17968693
So, how many factories did you own again?

>>17967876
> he hears ambition and individuality and thinks brainless hedonism
What did commies mean mean by this

>>17968693
>consider yourself a 'proletariat'
"Proletariat" is the name of an entire class of people, retard.

>>17965840
Wouldn't wanting more efficiency be motivation for innovation, especially since everyone in that community would have a personal stake in it?

>>17969547
Not him but that's obviously part of the joke.
>inb4 I was just baiting xDD

>>17966378
the planet is literally dying to produce the conditions of your "post scarcity" you retarded little faggot, its not a sustainable foundation to build on

>>17967876
the calvinists already refuted this from the first day of capitalism, they worked hard and accumulated capital to "redeem the time" not to buy spiderman blurays and gucci loafers

>>17969722
The world is dying to produce a trillion 50 cent toys at your gas station because whoever makes them is getting a 49 cent profit off of every sale.

>>17969700
Okay. It's not a well executed joke.

>>17969762
lol you're only touching the tip of the iceberg, pseud. the only reason we even have food is because the insect population is going to die off completely to get it and the entire ecosystem is going to collapse because of it. nothing about the "post scarcity" society you envision is real, it ALL comes from somewhere and that somewhere is finite

>>17966378
>It already does
Yea, we figured out how to violate the laws of thermodynamics?
Oh, we didn't? Oh, it's actually still impossible to violate the laws of thermodynamics?

>>17969762
>ITS CONSUMERISMS FAULT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Oh, you're one of those, "BUT WE CAN JUST BE MORE EFFICIENCT!!!!!!!!!! :-(" idiots.
You can't out-efficient the limited resources we have which are not replaceable. Everything is a non-renewable resource, you silly goof.

>>17969762
>The world is dying
>>17969812
>the insect population is going to die off completely
do you guys unironically believe this stuff lmao

>>17969836
right, all the left has is end of times rhetoric that sounds like a christian nutjob circa 200AD. if you unironically think the world is going to end, you are not smart.

Daily reminder that the people in this thread who criticize Marxism haven't read a word Marx or Engels ever wrote because they are terrified that if they did they would agree with them.

>>17969812
the way our agriculture is run is not nearly as efficient as it could be solely because it creates great profits for some and the government is ineffectual to modernize it. With complete investment in urban agriculture, lawn gardens, composting, vertical agriculture, and permaculture we could easily feed the entire population of the earth and then some without using any more land than we are now and with far less pesticides/chemical fertilizers. Post-scarcity society is real and possible right now, but the profit motive gives us planned obsolescence, fifty flavors of potato chip, retarded plastic waste, green-lawn culture, and urban wastelands instead. You don’t have any idea of how inefficient this society is and frankly how easy it is to solve our issues with the upmost force.

>>17969863
utmost i meant

>class conflict? sounds legit to me, but that's the only interesting viewpoint i've ever heard from marxists. actual communist praxis is cringe and either comes in the form of soibodied antifa vandals or mass murderer third world governments, which aren't any more desirable than the meat grinder status quo. why should i read marx if it's obvious we'd all be better off with our current system but with comprehensive social safety nets and protectionism for important industries while banning the exportation of jobs to foreign slaves? full blown communists should be thrown out of airplanes t.b.h.

>>17969853
take some accounting and businesses classes to see why you are a clown, or spend your life honking into the internet

>>17969853
Daily reminder that the anon who wrote this hasn't taken a single look into a mirror because he is terrified that if he did he would see a male.

>>17969812
Whoa dude I'm redpilled now holy hell.

This is so interesting. Please, go on and tell me what phenomenons are causing insects to die? Go into detail please I'm very curious because this is completely new information to me I assure you.

>>17969836
Look at 2020 and honestly tell me the world will be fine

>>17969898
Deforestation, agricultural expansion and human sprawl in general, wide use of pesticides and fertilizer as well as industrial pollution, Invasive species, pathogens, changing climate

do you actually believe these things just magically do not have any consequences? are you literally retarded? Im curious to here your logic behind this hot and bold take

>>17969893
The way in which you found it necessary to write this is, frankly, quite telling.

>>17969881
>>17969893
Just proving my point yet again /pol/yps.

>>17969936
Now tell me why we go to such extremes to do those things. What is our incentive to do all of that? This is such incredible new information to me please tell me more.

Leftism in general is for people who don't live in reality.

>>17969969
Conservatives are worse. Conservatives actually believe that you can conserve anything in a world where capitalism exists.

>>17969949
because life is inherently competitive and once the secret is out someone will use it to build themselves up and dominate everyone else?

>>17969997
So, you're telling me these people are obsessed with acquiring capital to dominate people beneath them? Holy hell we should have an organization of people against this!

>>17970011
holy brainlet lol, actually the sort of tribalism of life I am referring to will happen no matter what system you use, youre basically claiming that if we give up guns and demilitarize completely the problem of violence withe guns will be gone but in reality someone else somewhere will just use guns to conquer you. the genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back in. and dont even get me started about how communism is a self defeating ideology who's core principles have never and will never survive contact with the infinite complexities of reality. its honestly incredible how lacking in self awareness leftists are

>>17969939
Ok
>>17969942
And what point would that be? You are just poisoning the well so I did the same.

>>17970119
>And what point would that be? You are just poisoning the well so I did the same.

Look at the threadstarter you moron. Anyone who thinks Marxism means that everyone is supposed to share everything is either being an ignorant moron or a conscious shill.

Which one of those do you think is likely?

>>17970104
Nice projection retard. Communism isn't the only ism against capitalist retardation. I don't give a fuck about mutts fucking each other to decide who owns the street with the walmart I care about people taking over large swathes of land for selfish inefficient enterprises that objectively help no one except the forcibly disarmed locals are told to say thank you for the privilege of being able to work for half of minimum wage.

>>17970134
See >>17966694

>>17970172
lol well what I said applies to all hard leftist "isms" because they all suffer from the same faulty anti-authority and materialist principles. the only ism that can effectively carry out what you want is national socialism