/lit/ - Literature

>>17920446
Reposting!

>>17894481
>>17894487
Made an edit that I thought was substantial, I'll post it in a second.

>>17920446
>Any progress on your novels?
Yes, I'm done now. I was never cut out for this but I hid behind the language barrier to avoid criticism for months, maintaining an illusion that was fun to live in while it lasted.
This will be my final post on /lit/. I've been humiliated and exposed as a fraud. My writing is pretentious, infantile, banal drivel. My observations are dull, my language grade school level. My tenses are mixed up, I use colloquialisms, ellipses and onomatopoeia.
I was never cut out for writing. I began writing my "book" on January 6th. Since then I've produced 61 thousand words for it. These words are a tide of garbage without value, without insight, without form. The themes of time, space, infinity, memory and pointless duelling are not present in my work. It was never real writing, it was anime and weebshit.
I have failed. Goodbye.

DAY OF THE RAKE IS NOW

>>17920469
Shockwaves violently rocked Gunther’s bus, and seconds later, a loud blast nearly deafened everyone inside it. The bridge they were driving over swayed, and a girder - second on the left - snapped and nearly hit the driver’s window.

The bus rocketed forward: Gunther was pulled up against his seat.

The old woman sitting in front of Gunther whispered prayers under her trembling breath. A young mother on the other side of the bus coddled her baby who already looked a lot calmer than her.

Gunther looked up towards the storming skies. Dark clouds swirled above his head. A dreary atmosphere had followed him from the dilapidated walls of his old home to the dull skies of his new one.

Lightning stuck, blinding a forlorn Gunther, whose eyes were still turned towards the clouds. He rubbed them, grumbled, and turned ahead as he entered the city.

Shortly after crossing the bridge, Gunther’s bus came to a halt. He leaned forward to look through the windows, as passengers behind him yelled several different obscenities in unison. One man in the back huffed loud enough for all the passengers to hear, declared his intentions of insurrection to his uninterested lady friend, then swaggered down to the driver’s seat. Gunther and the others watched him deflate in a conversation with an undisturbed bus driver, and then followed his walk of shame to a miffed woman he’d failed to impress.

The bus remained in place for several minutes. Then, the doors opened. Gunther’s eyes darted, his heart pounded as he sank into the firm cushions of his seat.

“We’re under attack.” A male voice declared. It echoed through the bus, which had fallen silent immediately after he spoke.

A soldier entered the vehicle. Gunther watched two of his colleagues approach the front seats with warm blankets and sustenance. He sensed desperation rising in the seats around him, and a crowd soon stood up to welcome the new guests; Gunther quietly shuffled between the walls of the bus and the backs of the crowd, avoiding the watchful eyes of the trained men.

>>17920479
It's still not perfect, but I changed a lot of shit based on what anons here recommended. Their advice was pretty helpful. Personally, I feel like this is a big improvement, and I was hoping anons could tell me where to go next.

Is this better? Is it still bad? Is it good? Any recommendations for books that might help me? I'm going to read through Art of Fiction this weekend, hopefully I can write better after that.

I know my vocabulary is the biggest issue right now, so I'm going to work on that. I'll probably try something like SAT preparation to jumpstart my training.

Someone post Sam or I won't make wc goals

>>17920485
Stop rewriting the same passage and make progress you autist
At this point you're just making /wg/ write for you

>>17920496
I've got to deliver this dose of inspiration to anon.

>>17920516
/wg/ recommended that I edit the passage, that's why I'm posting it.

See: >>17899710

I want to go forward with other stuff, but I wanted to actually try with this passage and get some good feedback before I fucked off.

>>17920516
>>17920542
Also, this one's pretty different from the original, and nothing in there was ripped out of /wg/ posts.

>>17920527
If I write one more word
I'll be the furthest in this story that I've ever been
Just like mario and princess beach

>>17920446

>>17920564
I think "keep on keeping on" is a perfectly legit slogan for these breads.

>>17920477
what's with the rake and Canada? someone explain the joke pls

>>17920583
LEAF ALERT LEAF ALERT

>>17920591
I'm not from the land of Tims and maple, don't worry

>>17920485
I critiqued this before and looks like you've taken it on board so good job on your ability to take and implement feedback. Can't give as much feedback as last time but I will say my comment about it seeming 'young' still stands and seems even more pertinent now. I don't remember if you said your age or intended audience last time so maybe that's not a problem. Definitely recommend working on the vocab and making a reader really feel more for the character instead of just listing the things that are happening to him. Would also recommend some short stories as practice (and moving on from this particular passage).

>>17920479
You suck and you're fucking gay. My writing about poo poo and pee pea is 1000x better than anything you nerds could ever write reading how to write for dummies and whatever gay shit you read to try to compensate for having a choad. I'm going to write a book about fags that read how to books on writing written by people who can't write.

>have no friends
>no relationship
>don't enjoy anything anymore
>hardly eat
>only go outside to walk my dog
>i just sit in my house all day on my own and write and want to die
>still can't get anything published

I fucking hate this existence

>>17920479
Why is the baby calmer than the mother?

>>17920621
Try drinking gayboi

>>17920621
Take a shower
Shave
Get a haircut
Get a job
Feel better about your pointless existence
Write about the human experience now that you're part of it again

>>17920446
The newest thing in writing is using "he" instead of "his". Ex: the boy went back to he house.

One chapter left in my draft. Going to try to write it tonight. I don't know much about endings but I'll have to try.

>>17920647
>cuck yourself or you aren't a part of our special club
Ftfy

>>17920446
We live for the sake of our children, who in turn live for their own children. If this doctrine of childishness is true, then life itself become dry and empty. It is like taking out a loan in order to repay the previous one. "Living for one's children" - what a nice way to describe passing on your debts!

>>17920479
I'm a low tier /crit/fag so take this with salt but something that stands out to me is your habit for stating the subject and then the description/action
It leads to very stiff gallop that feels amateur

Read more. Self help books are fine but you need to develop some sensibilities
Read different genres from different cultures. Then read some shitty web novel tier garbage
Compare and contrast
gl anon. I'm kind of sick of seeing this passage though so write something new to post

>>17920606
Thanks anon! I'm not sure how to fix the 'young' part of my writing (it comes from age). I guess that'll just come from experience. Honestly, I'm not even sure why it's a bad thing; are there any good 'real' writers that write 'young?'

Yeah, vocab and 'show, don't tell' are my two priorities right now, short stories are what I'm doing next. Also, this passage is from the introduction in the novel, so maybe that's why you don't feel for the character yet. But I'll look into that too.

>>17920614
Not sure how to take this, but thanks for reading it anon.

>>17920631
I was trying to imply the mother was scared and she was coddling the baby as a way of calming herself/projecting it onto her child. I don't have the vocabulary to describe something like that yet, though.

>>17920621
>live empty existence
>create empty words
yeah weird
even bukowski had a full time job and friends
get it together anon

>>17920669
Writes whats on your mind is that way
Don't hit your head on the way out

>>17920672
Oh, and one more thing, don't forget to kill yourself!

>>17920679
Why isn't the mother sucking off the baby?
Read my Peepee Poopoo story
>>17920572
Also it should be Gunther was pulled up against he seat

>>17920672
>your habit for stating the subject and then the description/action
>It leads to very stiff gallop that feels amateur

Finally, someone else sees it too! That's the whole reason I could never get back into writing to begin with, I had no idea how to fix it - but I knew something was wrong, and it made me feel like shit. I can't even pick up on better rhythms from other books, no matter how hard I try. Probably because I don't know what I'm looking for. But:

>stating the subject and then the description/action

You've put it in words for me. I'm glad to know I wasn't just beating myself up for no reason.

>I'm kind of sick of seeing this passage though so write something new to post
I've only posted two revisions... But yeah, I won't repeat this one. I'll write a short story or something next.

I'm primarily into sci-fi, what do you think would compliment that type of reading if I'm going to pick up something new?

You should write a novel like a movie, using close ups and such. That's how you make it enjoyable to read.

>>17920679
>I guess that'll just come from experience.
Probably - it reads like you're a teenager or very new to writing right now. It should fade the more you work on things like putting feeling into your writing or sentence structure, like this guy says >>17920672

>>17920741
Post examples

>>17920669
"Fucking ones children"- What a nice way to pass on one's dna!

>>17920742
Man, I really hope it gets better soon. I already feel like shit for starting (seriously) in my 20's. Reading different things is a great idea, but is there anything I should look out for to fix it faster, when I'm writing?

>>17920733
Be more confident in the existence of the scene. I suspect you're having problems because you don't know what you've placed in the readers mind
When you're reading take note of how often subjects within the scene are stated. Most writing you'll notice that the "mental stage" presented to you has very few things on it and the things drawing you in are the descriptions and transformations

Don't worry about what you're reading so much as how you're reading it, especially if you're not very well read

>>17920741
Don't do this. You should write to make people feel like they're experiencing a movie, not write like how a movie is depicted

>>17920768
Penis big penis penises everywhere.
Rate my short story.

>>17920768
Shouldn't beat yourself up about it, your probably trying harder than most people in this thread and that's what counts. When writing, it might be helpful to check how your sentences are starting (e.g. do all your paragraphs start with the same word? do all the sentences start with "he" or "character name"?) and rephrase/reframe if they're too similar. Do that every few paragraphs maybe. You might find it helpful to try and picture yourself as part of the scene and how you would feel there. Rather than as observing the scene and writing it like stage directions.
But yeah, reading more is the best bet.

>>17920854
>your
typos in my feedback, might as well kms

>>17920803
Yeah, a lot of it is a lack of confidence:

>I don't know how other people picture things
>I'm never sure about how I'm using bigger words
>I can't tell the difference between good and purple prose
>The rhythm of my writing always feels off, so I pick the safest option

I'll focus on those things and report back soon with a new passage. Thanks for the help, anon.

I'm writing a scene where a guy makes a joke about another guy who made everyone wait, being in a hurry
Would it be better to explain why it resonated with everyone or should I make the MC recall one such instance
Evidently the second would take up a lot more space than the former but be more lively
Which is the better choice?

>>17920854
I've done the thing about starting sentences in other books, but never looked for an overall rhythm. I'll try that, maybe focus less on building my vocabulary and more on structure for now.

>You might find it helpful to try and picture yourself as part of the scene and how you would feel there
I started this with the revision of my paragraph, and tried to keep my 'psychic distance' intact. It felt like a huge difference (hence the repost.) Once again, thanks for the advice.

Question for all you anons. I've heard Kafka was very good at describing scenes: does that translate well in English versions of his books?

>>17920854
>he
Are you making sure to say "he house" instead of "his house"?

>>17920446
If you have to read a book about writing you aren't cut out for it.

how is this dude's writing lectures? do you recommend them instead of writing books?

>>17920991
Sanderson is a toad and he says nothing actionable in his lectures.

>>17920446
Finally, a good OP.
Can anyone give me tips on writing characters from a different race and culture? What are some ways I can make them feel more authentic and avoid pitfalls in advance? For example, not making a mistake like the Mulan live action movie.

>>17921016
>he says nothing actionable
you're basically right but he's got some nuggets amid all the dreck. worth listening to while you're doing something else like sitting on a train or in your car for a commute or folding laundry or something. that's about the level of attention it deserves

>>17921033
Go to an average middle class family of that culture and live with them a couple months. Observe everything they do and ask why they do it that way instead of how you yourself do. Contrast their history, economy, society, and culture and yours and don't just note the differences, critically examine WHY they are different and what made them choose the way they did, always bearing in mind that people choose differently but usually with the best of intentions.

Pitfalls? Easy. Don't judge others by your own values, and keep learning.

>>17921117
>Go to an average middle class family of that culture and live with them a couple months.
Much easier said than done, but I think I understand why you suggested that.
>Pitfalls? Easy. Don't judge others by your own values, and keep learning.
Sounds about right to me, I wanted to make sure my mindset was the right one.

>>17921117
What Family is just going to agree to have some rando writer live with them for a few months

>>17921117
What? How the fuck is he supposed to do that? What does any of that mean?
Most people of most cultures have no fucking idea what historical processes led to the formation of their practices
Most people's understanding of their own culture is no better than the Mulan action movie's understanding of Chinese culture
>>17921033
Don't do it
It's not a matter of cultural accuracy, it's a matter of cultural sensibility

>>17921135
It's a joke, anon.

>>17921145
>Don't do it
So what do you suggest instead?

>>17920952
Why read a book about writing when you can just read a book

>>17921146
Oh sorry I’m retard

>>17920733
>>17920672
Is there a technical term for this rhythm/gallop anon mentioned?

How do you make the story more ki-, I mean, more cathartic?

>>17921219
A canter

>>17921130
>Much easier said than done
True. But it's the best way. In all my travels I never learned as much as when I got this opportunity myself.

>>17921135
Friends, or relatives who've migrated and naturalised.

>>17921145
>Most people of most cultures have no fucking idea what historical processes led to the formation of their practices
Very true. So you have to combine observation with research. Point is however, you'll never know what you're missing until you see it for yourself. Johari window. And stuff like that is what makes people really go "aha! This guy knows his shit" and that provides the engagement and buy-in to your character.

>>17920952
Wew lad, look at Mr Self Taught here

>>17921238
'Canter' doesn't give me anything on Google, thanks for teaching me a new word though.

>>17921268
Maybe it’s spelt with an o but I just realized you were referring to writing and not actual horses

Why does inspiration strike me as I lay down but when I get up to my computer I lose all motivation and become the kind of tired that sleep can't fix.

>>17921277
Cantor is a mathematician, pretty dope guy. But yeah, I'm looking for tips on improving the rhythm of my writing.

>>17921254
>But it's the best way
Not arguing with that. But I think that's impossible for me.

Why am I so scared of writing? I have the entire story planned out, and I'm not bad at prose or anything, but for some reason, I'm just scared of putting the words down.

>>17921341
Then write what you know.

>>17921447
Impostor syndrome. You're shit and you're afraid of being found out.

say, if I have characters speaking an alien language, is it appropriate to use english word-plays, specific idioms in their dialogues?

>>17921460
It’s not impostor syndrome if he’s actually shit, then it’s just him being aware of himself being shit

>>17921447
It's normal. The execution is essential to make the planning work in the first place. The subconscious also realizes that this piece of writing is one that everyone will someday see. Essentially, you're performing in front of a large and mysterious audience. These fears scare you off from writing down the words. These fears are what you have to overcome and progress.

What's the difference between anime writing and normal writing?

>>17921519
That's a good point. I have no trouble writing poems I don't plan on showing to others, even though I eventually do; this story is the first I want to submit to magazines. Any advice to overcome this fear?

>>17921600
anime writing is bad

>>17921600
In this thread, there's no difference. It's just mindless boogeymaning/schizo and pointless divisioning. Just write.

>>17921660
Send over those unseen poems for the public to see. Start small, so you can feel more confident in producing your larger works.
>>17921600
The biggest difference is culture. The formal stems from Asian mentality and the latter stems from Western mentality. This background difference will always be relevant no matter what. Thus. most animes will lend into the Kishōtenketsu story path.
Anime and western writing normally have different audiences in mind. Anime writing normally aims towards younger audiences. Western writing goes for slightly older audiences of young adults. Anime writing is usually more accessible and simpler than its western brother as a result.

>>17920446
How do you form persistent writing habits?

>>17920476
it will be okay fren

>>17921983
Write 500 words each day. Don't fuck around and say you can't. Don't go back and edit them until your draft is done.

>>17921162
Poopoo Peepee
>>17921260
I'll teach you to respect me like a teacher teaches he class

I haven't written on this project in more than a year, but I was inspired staring at my ceiling, remembering the life I used to live, so I wrote 686 words. Feedback welcome. The idea of the project was everything takes place at a bar from open to close for one night. Bands, social groups, workers, etc. All intermingled like all the toxic scenes we know and love to hate to be a part of. Let me know what you think. I haven't touched the like 20k words of the rest of it, so this was more kinda fresh start type writing. The scale and scope gives me lots of anxiety so I never work on it. I'd like to use it as a documenting of that period of my life. I'm getting too old for it now.

https://pastebin.com/XeHripci

>>17922057
I don't agree with this. You should write 500 meaningful words. Otherwise it's like doing exercises that end up injuring you.

>>17922269
>1
He's asking how to form persistent writing habits. It's a matter of developing discipline. He's not asking how to improve his prose.
>2
First drafts are always shit. It's cliche but true. If you are going back to compulsively edit Chapter 1 while you're on Chapter 4, you are doing it so fucking wrong and are ngmi. Don't pretend to be a genius perfectionist. All of the greats got Draft 1 out of the way and fixed it.

>>17922450
That's not entirely accurate. Some people DO benefit from cycling back from time to time.
https://writerunboxed.com/2016/07/20/the-synergy-of-the-first-draft-whether-you-trim-or-embellish/

The ending is filtering me, guys. I spent the entire draft feeling that I was writing below my level, which I think is a good thing, but I am having to try very hard to come up with anything at all for these last few post-climactic pages and that worries me. What are the key elements of a good ending? (Specifically for feel-good fantasy schlock; I'm not trying to fly high, here.)

So far, I feel that the protagonist should be shown rejecting the false notion about the theme that they held at the novel's beginning. I also think it makes sense for there to be a reunion with some side characters who they met along the way. Is there anything else? If I can assemble a checklist of enough things that I want the scene to accomplish, maybe I'll wind up with only one way to do it, anyhow.

>>17922492
>Some people DO benefit from cycling back from time to time.
That might be the case, but is it consistent in being a benefit? Consistency becomes a higher priority once you evolve as a crafter. You will have to admire consistency if you ever want to profit off of your works.

>>17922569
>but is it consistent in being a benefit?
Yes.

>>17920446
>Any progress on your novels?

Yes, I will end part I before Monday.

It's just the first draft, of course. I believe I may have to rewrite some four or five times. I am doing it on paper so that I will be forced to write it at least twice.
But as soon as I finish typing it I will work on other, shorter projects. I will put the novel away for a few months, then work on it with a fresh eye later.

I have written around... 60 pages or so. I want it to be around 60.000 words long.

Can someone please explain how I'm supposed to read/write modern poetry? They've done away with rhyme schemes and depth in my opinion, and I just don't see the appeal anymore.

>>17922519
>I also think it makes sense for there to be a reunion with some side characters who they met along the way. Is there anything else?
How important those side characters are to the theme or to the protagonist?
>What are the key elements of a good ending? (Specifically for feel-good fantasy schlock; I'm not trying to fly high, here.)
No weird sudden love thing or any big twist. You can add these kinds of pieces if you want to. However, they must be handled with extreme caution.

>>17920446
I'm about to start one of 2 stories I want to write.
Although it is a little difficult because I would like to combine traditional magic with technology, but can´t really pull it off

>>17922519
Good endings are usually:

- natural course of events (e.g. death and funeral, such as in the Iliad; coming back from the journey, such as in the Odyssey and Dante; committing a crime and going to jail, such as in Crime and Punishment)
- plot twists (such as in that Borges story where you discover that the guy telling the story about he was betrayed someone is actually the traitor)
- coming together of different narratives/characters (such as two enemies - the central characters - meeting for a final duel; but there can be many more subtle ways of doing this, Anna Karenina being a good example of how to put many different characters in harmony)

They don't need to be separated. You can, for instance, craft a typical detective story in which: the crime is solved and the guy goes to jail (natural course) due to the coming together of many different clues, but the criminal is actually someone you didn't suspect (such as the investigator, himself).

>>17922585
You're reading old poetry wrong.

You shouldn't read it for the rhymes and meter. I can write a sonnet in ten minutes and it means nothing.

What counts are the images and the thoughts, and how they are interwoven and expressed, including rhythmically (good rhythm is not necessarily patterned rhythm, just like good dancing is not necessarily a repetition of the same movements).

The go-to book for understanding modern poetry, or any poetry, is Ezra Pound's ABC of Literature.

>>17922585
There is none. When you don't have rules of rhyme or meter, you take away the aspect of skill in writing poetry. Here's a sonnet I just wrote that may refresh your palette:

Does it besmirch my reputation, so
To follow, like a huntsman with his prey,
Afar behind a meek and gentile doe,
Who manipulates my heart just like clay?
For like the huntsman who knows rules of game
And recognizes what is fit to stalk,
I do not mean to kill or hurt or maim
Her, in who's path behind a ways I walk.
She has no semblance to her counterparts,
Impious, bland, and foolish that they are,
While she, who faith and wit from her departs,
Garbs herself in unique dress noticed far.
But I only trail her in times when we
Walk the same path, if else I leave her be.

Thoughts?

>>17922749
You're describing the climax, not the end.

>>17922809
I had misread his post, I thought he was referring to a climatic ending.

Hress looked on, sure he was going to die. Fire erupted across the bar, the heat intensifying as Charlotte burst into flames. He motioned to run away but knew it was too late. In less than a second he too would be burned alive.

A pair of cool hands gripped the nape of his neck and the fabric of his trousers. He found himself soaring beyond the bar doorway, over the pier balcony and down into the sea. The water was so cold he felt like death itself was wringing the life out of him. It went up his nose and filled his mouth because he hadn’t thought to hold his breath. The cold hands dragged him under for a moment before letting go.

Hress couldn’t see a thing. He was drowning. He thrashed madly to reach the surface and his head hurt from the pressure of the water. Reaching the surface he continued to choke and sputter, moving his arms to stay above the rough water. Warmth from the burning pier radiated from above. He waded over to the ladder he had used before and sat wet and shivering on the pier just close enough to the fire to keep himself from freezing to death.

A hard sound, like a hammer smacking old sea wood, alerted Hress to the presence of the blood-drinker. He wasn’t afraid because she had saved him from the burning bar. Several minutes passed. Hress shivered at the end of the pier with Bailey by his side picking fresh seaweed clumps from her body for the second time that night.

“So… no more killing? We’ll just go our separate ways and that’ll be that?” Hress said once he had stopped shivering enough to speak.

“Yes,” said Bailey. “Thank you.”

“Thank you for saving me from that.” Hress gestured to the fire. The support beam inside the bar collapsed, sending hot embers and more black smoke billowing into the sky.

Then, finally, Bailey said, “I’ll go. The sun will be up in a few hours.”

“Wait.” Hress stood up and Bailey looked at him as if he had just changed colour. “If you go they’ll still come after you. Next time they’ll send Heavies. If you’re serious about turning over a new leaf… I’ve got an idea.”

>>17923052
>Then, finally, Bailey said, “I’ll go. The sun will be up in a few hours.”
This line is a little too ugly.
It would flow better if it went like this:
>Bailey scoffed, "I'll go. The Sun will be up us in a few hours."
This small change will help dialogue feel more personalized and alive. You really don't need to resort to 'said' all of the time.

>>17923313
>scoffed

I hate using words like this. It's just a personal thing. Verbs like that annoy me for some reason. Makes my work feel impersonal ironically. Or another way to say it would be I feel it makes my writing read too modern. I'm not saying you're wrong, most likely I'm wrong here, but that's where I'm at with it.

Page 81 of planned 300 but boy am I running into writer's block way too often.

>>17922773
I do exactly that. I can appreciate both sides, can't I? The issue is, even the imagery and expression in modern poetry feels lackluster. The fact that there are no rhymes just makes it worse in my opinion.

>>17922791
Not bad!

>>17921600
Anime writing is just people writing narrative fiction because it has a lower barrier to entry than animation. This is different than people who enjoy anime and want to incorporate certain types of imagery/concepts into their writing. The effective difference between these two is depth and purpose.

For instance, to an anime writer, a setting is simply a location where a scene takes place. It has very little effect on the narrative beyond mechanically influencing the character's behavior. Let's say a scene takes place in a cold environment. Anime writers will typically acknowledge that it is cold and then move on with the story. Their characters change their clothes and make sexual remarks about cuddling up for warmth. They still move and function as if they were inside a climate-controlled building. Horny guy is still horny, MC is still quiet and brooding, Love Interest shivers a bit to demonstrate vulnerability, and Ditz opines about winter fashion.

Compare that to Jack London's story, To Build A Fire, wherein the protagonist finds himself in a life-threatening winter storm. His personality changes drastically over the course of the story. He starts off cocky and headstrong (talking about how the old-timers don't know shit about traveling in cold), becomes frantic as his limbs start to freeze (creating a negative feedback loop wherein his actions become more reckless, thusly further endangering himself), and then finds himself pathetically begging his dog to save his life.

There are a lot of tells that suggest someone is writing anime. The biggest one is silliness. Anime is made for kids, and therefore has childlike humor. Gruff strong guy likes cartoons. So-and-so has an inordinate fondness for mustard. Can you imagine?

>>17923477
All that shit and a furry cartoon to top it off. Well done.

>>17923355
>planning for page count and not word count
ngmi

>>17921600
Read a LN. It's all in the style.

>>17923510
People are always talking about these and I guess I'll give it a try. What's the pinnacle of the craft? Who's the Miyazaki of LN?

>>17923532
Go read Haruhi, it's a classic.

>>17923547
Bro this reads like some shit I would have written when I was ten. I will not believe this is the pinnacle of the craft.

>>17923589
Read it. All of it. Then we'll talk.

>>17923594
What changes later on? The subject matter, or the incredibly shallow, repetitive prose?

>>17923616
>The subject matter
Yes.
>the incredibly shallow, repetitive prose?
If that's what you want to call it, no. But I implore you, read on all the same.

>>17923532
The Haruhi series is definitely a classic. Some people will suggest the Monogatari Series, but those are closer to full fledged novels.

If you want something that's written within the last decade and has decent English comprehension, then I suggest Infinite Dendrogram. The light novel has the all-popular VRMMO-RPG elements and is a power fantasy. The characters are cheesy to the point of ridiculousness. This LN filters so many because all it does in the first 5 volumes is power fantasy that every LN reader is familiar with. If you get through the filter, then you'll end up with top notch world building that puts SAO to shame.

If you want some teenage high school angst, then go with Bottom-tier Character Tomozaki.

Most LNs are terribly written compared to English novels. Definitely don't expect a high standard.

>>17923650
>Most LNs are terribly written compared to English novels.
I wouldn't go that far. Relative to the average YA novel, their equivalent weight class? They're pretty well done. And frankly, I enjoy the flair in LNs a lot, I'm puzzled at the dearth of it in Western literature.

>>17923650
>The light novel has the all-popular VRMMO-RPG elements and is a power fantasy. The characters are cheesy to the point of ridiculousness. This LN filters so many because all it does in the first 5 volumes is power fantasy that every LN reader is familiar with. If you get through the filter, then you'll end up with top notch world building that puts SAO to shame.
I think we're looking to get way different things from a reading experience. For this stuff I'd just watch anime.

>>17923698
>For this stuff I'd just watch anime
Worldbuilding? Surely you jest.

>>17923343
Modern writing's favorite word is subversion. You probably hate verbs like 'scoffed' because they are tied to shitty kike-made books.
I personally don't care about what is supposedly modern or old. I care about what is satanic. Writing and art are suppose to evolve, but we are in a age of satanic devolution
>>17923650
>then you'll end up with top notch world building that puts SAO to shame.
You better not be implying that SAO has good world building.

I jerk off to anime, why would I read it beyond sad panda?

I've been working on some historical fiction. Please rate my prose.

>>17923755

>>17923760

>>17923702
>Worldbuilding? Surely you jest.
This is one of those situations where we're so far apart that everything we say will just seem embarrassing to each other.

>>17923845
Yes, but anon, we're talking about worldbuilding here, specifically. This is something that literature in general will always have over other mediums.

>>17920479
ok, since you're reading aof (I assume you mean gardner's book and not something else by the title) I'll use his list of "common mistakes" and try to highlight which ones i think are most pertinent for you, so that when you read the book you can zero in on them:

# Inconcrete writing
- Insufficient detail
- Abstraction instead of concretion
- Failure to "run straight at the image"

of the above, i'd say your biggest problem is the second. there's hardly any concrete description. example:
>A dreary atmosphere had followed him from the dilapidated walls of his old home to the dull skies of his new one.
a dreary atmosphere is what you want to evoke, but simply stating it won't work; dilapidated walls and dull skies don't help much either.

to start, i would go through literally every line and try to make it more concrete. don't worry about pacing, balance, rhythm, prose or any of that other stuff yet. that's just icing on top, but right now, imo, you don't really even have a cake. check out individual exercises 4 (description) and 12 (action) in the book.

# Clumsy writing
- Excessive passive voice
- Introductory phrases containing infinite verbs
- Shifts in diction level/distracting diction
- Lack of sentence variety
- Lack of sentence focus
- Faulty rhythm
- Needless explanation
- Accidental rhyming
- Shifts in psychic distance

of the above, lack of sentence variety and focus are the big ones. there's some faulty rhythm but a lot of that comes from a lack of energy because of the abstract way you're writing. i'd guess you're more of a logical type than emotional, probably more used to writing/reading essays or scientific articles than fiction which is blocking the emotional transfer necessary to write evocative prose. you might try free writing for a while before you start work. just write down images and pure sense impressions as fast as you can, unedited, until it starts to "flow" like you're in a dream--usually takes about 20-30 minutes. then put yourself in your characters head (remember: the narrator is also a character) and try to feel what he feels in the situation. once you can do that, the rhythm will come naturally because you'll be writing in the voice of the character. look at exercise 8 (dialogue). pay careful attention to the section about "frigid writing".

>>17923755
The thing about historical fiction is that we want to be immersed in another time and place, not a Hollywood soundstage designed to paint broad strokes of another time and place. As a historical piece, it falls utterly flat. A good example would be that in The VictoraEdwardTudorian Londenginghamshire Period, people flung feces out the window and poor people had lice. "A long, bracing breath" is probably the last thing you'd do in that environment and you certainly wouldn't embrace a street orphan. Or who knows, maybe it wasn't like that at all and I'm just repeating stereotypes I've heard before. Do some research, even a quick google search for "common Victorian Era myths" will probably add a bit of depth to your story. On the opposite end, don't get too bogged down trying to make the setting realistic.

As a work of fiction, this is probably one good editor away from being acceptable genre quality. Bit slow on the intro, I kinda get the impression the author would like to be an English Lord, and they're kind of acting that fantasy out on paper. I say it's genre quality because it's loaded with cliches: two different characters, not exactly who they seem at first, now combined for an unlikely adventure. Quick action scenes, there's even a blade to the throat.

And... I only just got to the end. Well-played, good sir. Very well played.

>>17923968
Go back

>>17923964
Hey guy, can you tell me how you developed this critical eye? Not the guy you're replying to, but that's a fascinating breakdown and I would love to be able to do the same.

>>17922121
I guess my main question in hindsight is, is that decent pacing and length if I wrote a book like this? I mean in 800 words he gives history, context for what’s going to happen and physical transportation. Is that good enough for a “scene” that has no dialogue?

What's the one element that should define what binds a chapter as a unit?

The location?
The point of view?
A theme?
A subplot?

>>17924041
You gotta feel the form

>>17924057
what is this supposed to mean?

>>17924071
It’s an /ic/ drawing viplu joke

>>17924024
you probably have it, but just don't have the language to describe what your brain intuitively picks up without even trying. when you read through that anon's work for example i'm sure you can sense that it's off somehow. likewise when you read something you like, it clicks instantly, you know its good but you can't put into words why it's good. some of this is taste. but there's also a clear dividing line between amateur and pro which is never in dispute. to obtain that language just read literally any book on writing technique. swain's book contains all the language about structure and gardner's book has most of what you need for prose.

those lists, i pulled directly from gardner's book, in particular the chapter on common mistakes. i find it's a good starting checklist for editing prose (after you've done triage on structure), but otherwise its nothing special, just the usual suspects. take a look at the self-editing book in the OP for more detail.

otherwise when you read books or watch movies try to apply the language you learned from those writing books to what you like and don't like about the book/movie. after a while it will become second nature. an interesting side-effect is that you'll start picking up weaknesses and flaws and try to figure out ways to fix them. you'll also start appreciating masterstrokes more--when the author really surprises you with something or manages to execute a perfect emotional transfer. it doesn't (necessarily) help with writing better stuff though. it's an np-complete problem of sorts, easy to verify but difficult to solve.

>>17924041
the length. a chapter should ideally be read in one sitting. people can only pay attention to one thing for about 15 minutes before they need a change. so given an average reading speed of 300wpm make your chapters ~4-5k words long.

“Good evening! May I start you two off with dink?”
I admired her for at least trying proper English.
“I’ll take a water with lemon, please.”
I glanced at my date and raised my eyebrows.
“I’ll take a Coke.”
Disappointment. High sugar content will make a person fat and give them acne; it is the enemy of all things aesthetic.
Our waitress gave a smile and a nod before strolling into the back of the restaurant and from there I heard the most disgusting Oriental babble, worse than any ebonics, worse than any chicano mumble; loud, intrusive and lacking tact. My previous admiration quickly eroded.
Before my mind was able to drift, my date reached out and squeezed my hand, caressing my weightlifting calluses with tiny, fragile fingers. We both smiled at each other, and for the first time in a long time, my smile was earnest. Tonight’s dinner wasn’t with just anyone. This was a fresh take on an old and tired passtime, something I had done previously with a few women, instead this time with a boy.
His name was Alex, a sixteen year old sweetling who caught my eye and completely floored me. It was like an angel had appeared. Prior to him, I had known no such femininity in any boy, nor had I seen such beauty in any woman. His soft cheeks beneath his high cheekbones, his warm brown eyes adorned with silken lashes, and especially his fleshy red lips below a small, turned up nose; all of that under a mane of neck-length pitch-black hair that was so thick that it didn’t move unless Alex wanted it to.
Sooner rather than later, the waitress returned with our drinks. She placed them down carefully before drawing a notepad and pen from her back pocket.
“Are you ready to o’der?”
As badly as I wanted to say, “ladies first,” I held myself back. I turned to Alex.
“Do you know what you want?”
“Mhm! I’ll take the spicy miso ramen, the chicken kind, please.”
Why, Alex, why? More disappointment. Eating spicy food now means I’m going to be kissing spicy later.
The waitress scribbled down the order while bobbing her head cartoonishly hard.
“And fo’ you, sirr?”
“I’ll take the shoyu ramen with pork.”
After ten more seconds of writing, the waitress smiled widely, took our menus, bowed shallowly and went back to the kitchen. There weren’t too many customers so she didn’t have much else to do.
Alex spoke softly, “Thanks again for taking me here.”
“Ah, come on, no need to thank me. Thanks for coming out tonight,” I tried to stop myself from blushing, which was hard when faced with Alex’s gentle voice. He had a way to make me melt with his tone constantly toeing the line of meek and boyish. I tried to take some focus off myself and asked, “When did you first start coming here?”
“Oh, a long time ago. My mom takes me here sometimes, we’ve been coming here for years.”

Help me improve this anons. It's not done but this is what I have so far

>>17924201
you mispelled "drink" in literally the first sentence. it's "drink." i don't think you're prepared to post on /wg/.

>>17924201
you should rewrite this in third person.

>>17924223
It's a Japanese person. Read, you dumb nigger

>>17924240
U won fee bak u get fee bak

>>17924235
I would, but the part near the end when they're about to fuck I want to put in
>From the moment I laid my eyes on him, my fantasies became that of an ancient Greek aristocrat frotting with his erômenos, or that of a Roman centurion falling in love with a boy slave he captured from some tropical Mediterranean island during his conquests.
typing this made my face hot

>>17923964
Thanks. I will save this.

>>17921822
Bullshit

>>17923764
Hoo boy

Well, it's clear that you're not of the Regency middle class, since you can't actually write very convincingly about their activities. There are a couple of rough spots here and there in general - it's "roast" not "roasted", and you "pair" food with wine, not food with food - but overall not bad.

But seeing as you're writing erotic fiction anyway I don't think it'll be a major problem. Word of warning though, the market is nitpickier than you might expect. Your writing needs to be very tight, emotionally-charged and descriptive. Basically you're in the business of arousing people, moreso than other genres, you better deliver.

>t. Written good smut and bad smut, mostly the latter

This thread is trash, I think we all know the reasons why. Should /crit/ be made?

>>17924388
Can you explain why you think we, including this wonderful anon ( >>17923477 ), are wrong about anime writing?

Does anyone here use software like Roam Research for notes/organization? If so, how have you been using it?

>>17924429
I agree.

>tfw you just started writing and all of your ideas are too big and complicated for your skill level

>>17924433
>wonderful anon
The guy who spouts ignorance with every sentence he makes and has a retarded furfag comic by a Jew to top it off? Brandolini's law is in full effect with you, it's a much better use of time to simply call that shit out so people don't get lulled into thinking it's at all accurate.

>>17924528
wat r ur ideas?

Hit the 10 chapter mark.
109 pages.
29,000 words.

https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/37998/wish-mountain-an-epic-low-fantasy-adventure-serial

>>17924547
Well I recently had an idea for a sort of novella divided into chapters, and when you read the chapters in order it tells a fairly concise and straightforward story with some slight metafictional elements. However, if you read the chapters out of order, the content of chapters changes. The reader would then have to try and map out different sequences of chapters to uncover all the hidden secrets and eventually discover the "true end," all the while the story itself is becoming more and more unhinged as the characters become aware of their existence within this looping, labyrinthine story that is destroyed whenever the reader "completes" the story.

>>17924533
>The guy who spouts ignorance with every sentence he makes and has a retarded furfag comic by a Jew to top it off?
You got filtered hard.

>>17924583
sounds interesting. try it out, only thing stopping you is you, and these shitty threads.

>>17923964
Looks like Gardner's going to be more useful than I thought.

>a dreary atmosphere is what you want to evoke, but simply stating it won't work
I wasn't trying to evoke it there, but I get what you mean.

>to start, i would go through literally every line and try to make it more concrete
I shall do that after reading Gardner. Look out for Gunther-anon and his next work. It'll be much better!

># Clumsy writing
I've never even heard of these things, and I doubt I'll ever get a hang of:
>- Shifts in diction level
Is it just intuition? Or experience? Or is there a technique to it? I don't even know that much diction to begin with.

>i'd guess you're more of a logical type than emotional, probably more used to writing/reading essays or scientific articles than fiction
That is correct, though I almost exclusively read fiction. Funny how that works.

Not gonna lie, it kind of hurts being bad at writing. All my life I was told I was a good writer (not really because of my prose), and I'm not used to being criticized for it. I come back after years, too old to be a student, and I'm shit. Not even rusty, just shit.

It does get better from here, right?

Also, is Gardner's advice applicable to all fiction, or just the stuff that he writes? Should I get another book on writing advice or is it redundant?

>>17924533
>Brandolini's law
Your assertion is that my entire post was bullshit and therefore it would be almost impossible to refute it. Each line would require a paragraph to refute. Just to show how wrong you are, I will do it for you.

We can eliminate the second paragraph because it was entirely hypothetical. A scenario I made up based on a lifetime of impressions I've gained from watching anime. It's not an analysis of an excerpt which was clearly inspired by anime, it's a strawman.

We can eliminate the synopsis of Jack London's story, because it doesn't actually support my thesis. It's not a representation of someone deliberately incorporating anime imagery in a story which aims for depth and purpose. There's no need to engage with it.

So the only paragraph which really needs to be refuted is the first. It begins with a bold assertion for which we have already eliminated all supporting evidence which was provided. The rest of the paragraph builds upon that statement and therefore can be similarly discarded.

Final paragraph: I made a good point which I backed up with an example. You have apparently misjudged my intention. As a writer, I must claim responsibility for any misunderstanding. I failed to make myself clear.

Now we can go back to the beginning. Your refutation to my post rests upon the assertion that it serves as a representation of Brandolini's Law. We've certainly disproven that, and therefore we can handily discard your conclusion that my post was bullshit. Since we've established that we're both completely full of shit, we must settle this dispute through trial by combat. My glove rests at your feet.

>>17924654
You entered a new realm that is far more challenging than the last. You need to get used to it.

>>17924658
>Your assertion is that my entire post was bullshit and therefore it would be almost impossible to refute it.
Here we go again. Right from the start, from the very first sentence, you spout nothing but lies. You do not understand what Brandolini's Law even is - or rather, I suspect, you are deliberately misinterpreting it in order to give yourself an advantage. But let us set the record straight. This is a wikipedia link, but it will serve its purpose well enough for this brief spat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

>"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than to produce it."

Could I refute it? Obviously. Even your amateur and immature analysis of your own fallacy-laden post shows that. But why should I bother when it takes so much effort for so little gain? By calling you out in a simple fashion without any sense of proper debate or decorum I was able to get you to expend some effort on actually thinking your own post through. It is a much more valuable use of my time to simply encourage you.

>>17924695
Why post at all?

>>17924695
>By calling you out in a simple fashion without any sense of proper debate or decorum I was able to get you to expend some effort on actually thinking your own post through.
Huh. So it took less effort for you and I to refute my post then it did for me to write it? Not an order of magnitude more? I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks for clarifying that.

You're a jackass and I'm a jackass for responding. Are we going to fight or what?

>>17924725
That's one way of looking at it, you stupid motherfucker. Now shut the fuck and never make ignoramus posts like >>17923477 again.

>>17924730
It is literally the high point of my day to come and post things like that. Please don't take this away from me. It's all I have.

I'm observing this little exchange, and it makes me sad because I know the source of this dispute.

Thanks to the anon from the previous thread that broke down the idea of insecurity.
I'll always have it in mind.

>>17924733
At least state your own lack of knowledge on the subject so that you do not give off any false impressions.

>>17924734
Is there a discord no one told us about and so there’s 4 anons in these threads that thought it would be a good idea but soon it became apparent that their autism was too powerful and thus the social dynamics crumbled and enemies were made forever, yet because they are creatures of habit they are still posting in the thread, continuing their eternal fude?

>>17924664
I will, I'm just worried I won't learn fast enough.

>>17924695
Doesn't anime just mean cartoon in Japanese? A part of the point of usual anime is that it is a program with wacky and colorful characters. There are exceptions to the rule. However, noting them as exceptions proves that there is a rule for notable cartoonish.

>>17924734
Do you now? I suspect many people who assume they know "the truth" are in fact privy to only one side of it.

>>17924764
Focus on gathering the best studies first. Putting yourself with the most practical knowledge will quickly improve your skills at an alarming rate.

>>17924776
It's pretty obvious what's and who's derailing the thread. I remember when these threads had writing. I think it's time for change.

>>17920479
A few simple tips. You provide an unnecessary number amount of adjectives. It's too much and clearly noticeable. Secondly, your diction gives the impression that you're purposely choosing more 'literary' words. Obviously these words are not bad. The writing just gives the impression that you were attempting to sound literary without producing a text that befits it.

>>17924528
I can relate
I'll get 5k words into a design doc, identify that the themes are way above my weight class and then go back to reading and brain storming a new story
I finally found my solution. I'll sharpen my teeth on anime until I feel I can do my other stories justice
My current themes have to do with the virtues of friendship and earnesty. Even an amateur trog like me can write when they aim low enough

>>17924776
Animefags were camping the thread so they could choose the OP image. Animefags started getting pissy because the pseuds made early threads so they could choose the OP image. One anon, a true master of debate with a silver tongue and razor wit, totally demolished the animefags with his multi-paragraph fact-based analysis of animefag behavior and psychology. He won much acclaim for his efforts.

But since his post wasn't full of underage girls in short skirts and screaming muscular dudes, the animefags very quickly forgot about it and have now returned.

>>17924777
You're a fucking idiot who doesn't read or write
Don't give people advice when you have no idea what you're talking about

>>17924834
Yep, you don't know a damn thing. Thanks for confirming that.

>set out to write a short, punchy 50k word novella
>story spirals out of control, begins spanning multiple decades, referencing ancient works and commenting on toxic modern social trends as well as venerated philosophical texts
>begin to experiment with structure to reinforce the main theme: the futility of existence
>still only 20k words in
Will I ever make it?

>>17924654
shifts in diction just means mixing elevated diction with colloquial speech. it's mostly a result of carelessness. not really a problem for you, though the line about the baby "looking" calmer is borderline.

gardner's book covers about 80% of it. the rest you can't learn from books anyway, you have to discover it yourself because it's partly a matter of taste and voice. his method for retro-planning plots is useful for the logically minded and the 2-3 case studies he does (the one about pigtoe, the other one about the stripper and the one about helen) are probably the most instructive in all books of this kind. reading more after him probably has diminishing returns vs. just putting it all into practice so i wouldn't bother.

one caveat: gardner follows the tolstoyan school of "moral literature" what he calls "concrete philosophy"; literature as a means to conduct philosophical gedankenexperiments. much of what he says is independent of that pov but if you're of the aesthete bent, it will put you off. imo he made a convincing enough argument (more than tolstoy even) that he converted me into the creed. ymmv.

and btw it doesn't get better. your standards go up with your skill so there's never really a sense of having arrived. "th'assay so hard, so sharp the conquerynge"

>>17924834
>totally demolished the animefags with his multi-paragraph fact-based analysis of animefag behavior and psychology.

post it.

>17924836
Are you this annoying weeb clown?
>17924730

>>17924834
chill with the culture war
you know for everyone but the schizo its a funny meme right?
weirdo

>>17924896
>"I know everyone who posts in this general, and they all told me anime is funny."

Nice one, did your discord friends tell you that? You and your kind are ruining the general. Every time a thread with an anime OP is made, the writing gets derailed. Every. Single. Time.

>>17924907
schizo
last threads have been the worst in weeks because of the namefag
nothing to do with anime
the explanation wont work on you, the demons are too loud for you to hear me, but hopeully newfags can learn to not feed (you)'s

>>17924907
sadly this. will we ever see a day when /wg/ is free from anime in the OP? my dream is the next generation will be so lucky...

>>17924925
>namefag
>nothing to do with anime

>>17924592
>>17924592
>>17924592

I still don’t understand the style a light Novel has that is dumbed down inferior prose to the same equivalent trite writing. No one posted examples, they just gave VN recs and I’m not going back to the days of katawa shojo and Bible black just to feel better about my composition. Someone shower write a comparison.

>>17924925
>schizo
Oh, it's the motherfucker that admitted he was willing to trade his freedom for security.

>>17924971
>>/lit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=&search_subject=&search_username=FranxxRewrote+&search_tripcode=&search_email=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=old&search_capcode=all&search_res=post
How's your fanfic coming along, namefag?

>>17924925
>namefag
>nothing to do with anime
I thought you said you can read.
>>17924991
Fine.

>>17924991
he doesn't write, don't reply
schizos only bring meta thread discussion

>>17925004
Oh, I know. But I wanted to make fun of him. How long do you think it'll take him to drop the act?

>>17925009
>How long do you think it'll take him to drop the act?
When OP image isn't anime.

>>17925004
:( wanna talk about my alcoholism book instead?

>>17925009
so long as he keeps getting (you)s, never
schizos are deluded and have a make believe narrative far more persuasive than any reality
just post progress, problems and taste to drown them out

I managed to write half of my final chapter tonight. I hope I can think up a good closer tomorrow...

>>17925009
Every time you reply, it will last longer. You're not making fun of him, you're giving him attention. He's playing you like a fiddle you idiot. The only way to deal with this type of thing is to ignore it.

It slipped my mind but Scrinever 3 for Windows finally came out on the main branch just recently. If you bought Scrinever 1 after November 2017 you can upgrade for free. There isn't much new persay; post of it is under-the-hood kind of updates. Most noable I'd say is the new corkboard which offers a freestyle mode which is kinda cool, and you can view them as as "threads" if you use labels (like for subplots or multiple POVS)

>>17925031
You're attacking the namefag but in reality (where anime fags don't live) it is the OP image that attracts these types of posters. It's like, a writing thread attracts writers, but since we have anime OP images, mental illness will attract mental illness.

>>17925019
Can I read it? I don't really give a shit about this stupid meta thing.

>>17925031
You're right. Sorry.

>>17925046
>needs an organizer to sort his thoughts
lmao
what sort of things do you guys put in your design docs?

>>17925082
I just write down names and a few things about the people to remind me who those names are associated with.

How's your day going /wg/?

>>17925082
Stop being a petty asshole. It's really not necessary.
>what sort of things do you guys put in your design docs?
By chapter, I organize bullet points for the most important events, story details that are shown or foreshadowed in the chapter, character introductions, deaths/damage that occur within the chapter, and character interactions.
Of course, I really don't have much faith in my charting. Should I carry over a story development chart so I can keep track with what is currently in play?

>>17925125
I'm starting to see the shape of my story, and I'm thinking I'll spend this month focusing on completing the first of the 3 parts it consists of.

>>17925129
>makes fun of anon for organizing
>posts image of organizing
holy fuck you are stupid
leave already. you don't write, you don't read

>>17925153
Cool. What's your story about?

>>17925171
>holy fuck you are stupid
No, you are the one who is stupid for replying to the attentionwhore.

>>17925171
Okay, I don't get sarcasm and it ends the whole planet somehow. Whatever.
Listen to this dude
>>17925183
and leave me alone.

>>17925046
Cool. Looks like it'd be helpful for branching plots as well. Am I wrong?

>>17925226
Maybe, but branching plots will always be a bitch to work with, especially with a physical book.
Are you planning to do a visual novel?

>>17925275
can you stop spamming the thread.

>>17925296
Every time you reply, you encourage him to keep going, no matter what your reply says.

>>17925316
I should honestly thank you because it helps me to ignore aggravating shit on this board than for the other anons, ironically. I hope you are having a good day.

https://pastebin.com/XHmSWHa1

Can I get a review for this. Planning to publish on Royal Road. It's a fantasy world meets Cyberpunk. This is the first chapter. I want to know how it feels in terms of prose which is the biggest deal to me. And also this is the first chapter I'm worried about the pacing.

>>17925608
I like it, but the beginning was a little rough. I would remove the “And” at the beginning of the third sentence and maybe just try and rewrite your intro two paragraphs in general so they flow a little better, feels like you struggled with it some before finding your voice

has anyone here ever tried to do the instapoet thing?

>>17925608
>Under the wan moonlight: Port Stasis stood.
>With high-rise buildings clawing from beneath the ground like fingers from fallen gods.
did you think using a colon in place of a comma for no reason would be cool, or something? the second sentence isn't even a full sentence. but i guess none of that matters where you're planning on publishing.

>>17925608
I'll go through 15 lines.

Why use :? Buildings clawing out of the ground? As in curved buildings that are actually built underground to pierce the surface? And is usually not a good sentence start. Neon holograms dance across the sky as in clouds, skyline, or city panoram?

He got a call from a guy in a black suit? I'm not sure blow by blow action description is needed here.

I'm not hearing the character voices here. Also, Evening Streep and Agent Zahara are callnames, right?

Bit too much blow by blow again, but the line showing his apartment is fine.

I think that lines like `Yes, I did, sir.` need to be dialogue.
A good way to show that things closer to camera look bigger as holograms on the other end. Are you going to use it later? Like making a building model look like the real thing?

In short, it's good enough for RR, make improvements once you complete it.

>>17925776
>I think that lines like `Yes, I did, sir.` need to be dialogue.
don't need to be dialogue*

>>17925749
>>17925762
>>17925776
>>17925784
Jesus Christ thanks so much guys. I'm so glad I'm only 4 chapters in so I scrap and restart. Thanks for the advice I'll incorporate it

>>17925814
>Give me critique, I can handle it
>Get critique
>Instanly goes Time to scrap and restart
Your next attempt will be marginally better, just move forward and edit when you are done.

>"someone stay on alert and make a thread before you know who. hopefully someone answers my call. time will tell."

thoughts on my characters first line?

>>17925814
i doubt restarting would improve your piece at all if this is your skill level. learning takes time. but you do you

>not sure which is worse, the animefags or the anti-animefags

Either way, you've both successfully torpedoed the thread

>>17926033
I wish people could just ignore these things and focus on their craft. Me, I'm writing right now.

>>17926069
Looks like you're on 4chan

>>17926069
I'm not sure why people even care what the OP image is anyway.
You see it for 2 seconds and scroll right past it.
Are we so autistic that we can't just shrug off simple stuff?

>>17926484
>Are we so autistic that we can't just shrug off simple stuff?
It's literally one guy, or if not, two or three.

>>17926033
Who cares? They are both insane dipshits that take things right into the insanity train. It's better to ignore their weird bullshit and just focus on our stories.
Right now, I feel like I have the first two parts down in my story. I currently struggle with coming up with a proper ending for the third and final part. Stuff is stupid complicated in that part. I have to resolve a world-wide conflict between tragic lovers, their disconnected children, and where they will all end up.

>>17926484
I bet it's just ego anon (whom is probably weeb anon as well) and conspiracy anon. They seem to be mentally-ill posters.

>>17926291
>posting on 4chan
>somehow not writing the post
Are you a wizard?

QUICK!!!!!!

POST THE FIRST PARAGRAPH OF WHATEVER YOU'RE CURRENTLY WORKING ON

>>17927181
Seisoskelimme ruokalan edessä asennossa. Ryhmänjohtajat olivat saaneet päähänsä, että nyt oli oikea aika asettaa meidät koitokseen. He seisottivat meitä pitkään, sillä ruokailemaan oli saapunut toinen komppania, joka ehti oville ensin. Tässä odotellessa päästiin näkemään, olimmeko oppineet itsehillintää ja itsekuria sotilaalle sopivalla tasolla.
”Kun te seisotte asennossa, te ette naura! Te ette hymyile!” pappa Puronen sätti meitä. Alikersantti Natunen kuljeskeli edessämme ja tuijotteli milloin ketäkin silmiin. Kunniakseni minun on mainittava, etten hänen katseensa edessä murtunut, edes suunpieleni eivät vipattaneet. Mutta pappa Puronen, tuo viekas vaari, hän ei ollut ensimmäistä kertaa pappia kyydissä.
”Vaikka alikersantti Natusen olkapäillä olisi MURSU! niin te ette naura!” hän sanoi, ja pärskähti itsekin. Yritin purra huultani, mutta ei se auttanut. Mursu on jo pelkästään sanana aivan naurettava, ja niin on turpea eläin muutoinkin. Pärskähdin.
”Tai vaikka kaksi mursua, ja ne rakastelisivat hitaasti”, Puronen jatkoi, töin tuskin välttäen oman tikahtumisensa. Mutta me alokkaat, me olimme mennyttä miestä. Te voititte tämän erän.

>>17927181
Working title 'Confessions of an Ivory Bride'. Got 25k words in and realised it was going down the wrong track so gone back and heavily restructuring. The whole opening chapter could still change.

>>17927225
Shit

>>17927326
I know, you told me last time. And I'm still not stopping.

>>17920446
I've been working on my book for a while, and I'm almost finished with the first chapter, EXCEPT for two small scene transitions. This is the first. Any suggestions or recriminations?

>>17927231
>mounds of pink bacon
Sorry, but this repulses me. All I can think of is wet gore.

>>17927225
>>17927360
please explain perkele to me

>>17927520
It's a curse word. It feels really good to say out loud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7_pVrIshxA

Fantasy authors, how do you write your fight scenes?

>>17924856
>though the line about the baby "looking" calmer is borderline
Yeah, again, not enough vocab to paint that picture.

Good to know I won't need much apart from Gardner. And the moral literature stuff doesn't bother me, I'm actually interested in that stuff.

>your standards go up with your skill so there's never really a sense of having arrived.
My standards are already pretty fucking high, so I hope there's an upper limit to how high they can get. Otherwise I'll be aiming for a level that isn't physically possible.

>>17924814
I don't understand what you mean, anon.

>>17927231
Kino. I'd read more. Which is unusual for things posted in these threads

>>17926484
/lit/ is not an anime board. The threads with anime opening images are always few and generally just off-topic shitposting. OP's choice of imagery is essentially a declaration that the thread and the topic are a joke, and it sticks out like a sore thumb in the catalog. It's a colorful fuck you to everyone trying to write serious works and improve, and attracts mentally ill manchildren, as effectively demonstrated.

Recommendations for a good thesaurus and dictionary? Do I even need a good thesaurus and dictionary?

>>17927787
No it's just an excuse for people like you to shitpost. You don't have any contributions so you attack the OP.

>>17927812
OP never sleeping, always sniping new threads, and ignoring requests for changes isn't very friendly either. On top of acting like a victim when called out on it.

>>17927840
I don't care. It's only a problem if you make it one. You choose to make it a problem because you have nothing else to do. Go write.

Any of y'all submit anything to that new /lit/ magazine

>>17927855
There's a new one?

>>17924966
Are you asking someone to compare the prose of an LN with an American YA novel of the same caliber and intended audience? That still technically wouldn't be fair because of the language barrier, translation is bound to remove the subtle nuance of flow and prose. BUT! I'll give it a shot.

Ella Enchanted is a book I remember from my childhood. Same basic concept as an LN, preteen girl in a magical world must overcome a magic curse. Let's see how the opening paragraphs compare.

Ella:

>That fool of a fairy Lucinda did not mean to curse me. She meant to bestow a gift. When I cried inconsolably through my first hour of life, my tears were her inspiration. Shaking her head sympathetically at Mother, the fairy touched my nose. "My gift is obedience. Ella will always be obedient. Now stop crying, Child."

Someone earlier recommended Haruhi as the pinnacle of the LN, and would not be dissuaded. Opening paragraph:

>And so, I entered the senior high school in my area. At first, I regretted this decision as my new
school sat on top of a very high hill. Even during spring, students would become hot and sweaty
just from climbing the steep road — clearly, my intention of "going to school leisurely" was not
going to work. Every time I remembered this, along with the fact that I would have to repeat the
same procedure every day for the next three years, I became tired and depressed. I overslept a bit today. Perhaps that's why I walked so much faster, and perhaps that was why I was so tired then. I could have woken up ten minutes earlier, but, as all of you know, you sleep best right before it's time to get up. I didn't want to waste that precious 10 minutes, so I gave up on the thought, which meant that I would need to repeat this early exercise for the next three years. This was just too depressing.

Ella is tight-paced and an example of my favorite type of opening: familiar enough so that the reader can relate (mother swaddles newborn baby) while also immediately provoking curiosity by demonstrating how this world is different from ours (fairies exist). Ella's basic life problem (she is magically compelled to obey all orders) is laid out plainly. The quality of the prose is concise. I'd take a moment to point out the use of alliteration in the phrase "fool of a fairy", followed by the use of paradox (curse vs gift), elevating the prose slightly above simple description.

Now Haruhi. Strip the description down to it's barest meaning and it might be easier to understand what's so terrible about it.

>I go to school. The school is on top of a steep hill. It requires a lot of effort to get up the hill. It is not easy to climb the hill. I have to climb the hill to get to school. It takes a lot of effort to climb the hill. I slept late today. I had to walk fast to make up for lost time. I slept late today. Sleeping late makes me late for school. I will continue sleeping late. I have to climb a hill to get to school. I don't like it.

>>17927181
>The river was dead. There was no current visible on the surface, aside from the wake left behind as the boatman dipped his oars into the brown water and pushed us interminably towards the far shore. The seething heat was alive with the mincing whine of a thousand mosquitoes.

>>17927802
Blacks law dictionary

>>17928029
I like it. The last sentence is gold. Grew up in Florida, the whine of mosquitoes and cicadas always made it feel somehow hotter

>>17922121
>https://pastebin.com/XeHripci

Was it so lifeless and dull that it didn't even deserve a 'it's shit'?

>>17927231
>>17928029
Good demonstration that quality writing doesn't need to have the same style. I'd read a novel-length work of either.

>>17922121
I would have read more if it was in front of me. Are you going for a sort of autofic angle? I enjoy these time constraint novels. As for pacing, if you're shifting POVs short bits like this would be fantastic.

>>17927744
You write what's important/has consequences to characters and environment. You are not a stotyteller that waves his hands around to show, you are a writer that uses only words for reader's imagination to create those. So no `he struck and struck again, then kicked, then bashed weapon away with a shield and slashed, then walked away.` unless it has consequence or purpose.

>>17928231
Yeah, that's the goal. I've been the bartender, the barback, the band member, the regular, the newbie, the drunk, the lover, the creep, the over educated, the under educated, etc. at one point or another in my last decade of being a punk degenerate.

Originally, the 20k words I have were from a script I converted, kinda with the same vibes as the movie Slacker (someone in these threads rec'd it a long time ago) or coffee and cigarettes but only located at one bar. At first I was writing it as if everyone was trapped in there and nothing outside of it was written about unless it was a story from one of the patrons, but after reading Infinite Jest I realized that I really enjoy the 'mind wandering before snapping back into the next action' bit to tell history and context, so I need to go back in, sort all the characters out, and pump those contextual meanderings back into it. I also need to figure out some way to draw out the timeline of 4pm-2am. I was thinking instead of chapter headings just having the time there? I'm not sure. Maybe even mix them up. Basically I wrote a bunch of interesting dialogue but haven't quite mastered how it all fits together.

I also don't really know how to turn something with 50 characters into any type of traditional story beat, besides each little interaction being a satisfactory mini story. Like, how much can a character really grow in one night? I know there can be events. Bar fights, spilt drinks, fall outs and all that social dynamics etc. Maybe that's the joke, people don't grow. It's supposed to be a snap shot medium for me to spew all my beliefs and jokes through dialogue. I'm not sure.

>>17927850
Well, I care, because I write full time, have experience, and want to help capable people get better and maybe bring their dream book to life. But wankers like you chasing away the more serious-minded writers isn't helping. Can't help those who don't care.

I just ordered the crocodile book you guys made. Looking forward to reading it.

>>17928406
Shut the fuck up Gardner, you haven't seriously posted in the threads for months after you got bullied to hell and back.

>>17928406
Based

>>17927840
>On top of acting like a victim when called out on it.
That’s you, you faggot.

Occasional lurker to this board, I have a small excerpt written up for some old thoughts of mine. I would say that it's decent at the minimum, though I haven't taken a look at it in a few months.

The question is to post or not to post, in order to maintain control, or if it should be a far smaller excerpt...

>>17926004
Not him, but what would you suggest if not restarting? Quitting altogether and doing something else?

>>17928535
finish it, make mistakes, learn from those mistakes, then start a new piece armed with what you've learned

>>17928344
>I was thinking instead of chapter headings just having the time there?
This is what I did with a shitty night-shift novel I was writing sometime in 2019. I think it works well, clearly signifies the 'gimmick', also it's a fun exercise to add some kind of hard temporality into a scene.

For character arcs I wouldn't try to force anything in a screen-play/traditional sorta way. Maybe an epilogue or snappy summing up of a patron's life once departed - something like the gut punch 'time passes' sequence from Virgina Wolfe's To the Lighthouse, where we learn X is dead and so and so married so and so etc.

Anyway good luck anon, know that you have at least one potential reader out there.

>>17928594
But see, I can't do that. My foundations are always so cracked that by the time I notice it, the whole story is unsalvageable and there is no point in "finishing it".

>>17928413
Hey man Gardner's one of us. You can fuck off. What have you done for our community? F Gardner has brought more attention to the aspiring writers of /lit than maybe anyone else. People like you are ruining this board.

>>17928630
>people like me are ruining the board
>hundreds of good threads have been sacrificed to the altar of Call of the Crocodile

>>17928625
From someone who hasn't finished a single fucking thing in his life, I'd advise you to follow those cracks all the way up. Fill them in to the best of your ability, and then start something else.

If you mostly work without an outline maybe try getting as exhaustive with one as possible before you jump into whatever is next. If you're die-hard discovery writing you're probably just going to have to get used to the fact that most of what you write is going to be retarded.

>>17928630
the thing is, if you're capable of writing something good why would you want to associate it with this place?

>>17928771
Why would I want to associate it with any other place?

>>17928771
Idk. But that's clearly what F. Gardner has done.

>>17928625
will abandoning a shitty story halfway help make your next one better?

>>17928344
>Maybe that's the joke, people don't grow.
Honestly dude, people who go out to bars don't ever actually grow. They just become more sophisticated teenagers. I suspect bars were invented for the sole purpose of keeping these people away from the rest of us, so they don't attempt to keep re-enacting their insignificant adolescent dramas while the rest of us try to solve the problems inherent to living in a world with a billion conflicting viewpoints.

I tried to go out drinking a couple times when I was younger, because it was The Thing People Do. That shit was depressing. So-and-so fucked so-and-so but she was talking to Who-Gives-A-Shit at the time and now he's pissed, so he tried to start a fight with The Guy Who Always Wants to Fight to reassert his wounded masculinity, but Fight Guy watched a Bruce Lee movie earlier, so he's waiting for Whoever to really cross the line so he can pretend like he's a retired martial arts monk who keeps getting dragged back into conflict against his will. All the girls around them are spouting idiotic cliches about human behavior to put a stop to it because a fight would distract the crowd from their tits. They spent all day shopping for new outfits, and now they're flat broke and no one is buying them drinks. "You have to choose your battles" and "there's plenty of fish in the sea." And all around idiots are blathering on about the new shit they bought and all the epic wins they had in High School. The people they killed in Iraq. Who said what and where they said it. The older crowd are yelling about politics. No one is shutting the fuck up. Outside it's a clear night and the stars are shining. You can see the haze of the Milky Way. There are ants crawling along the rail of the staircase, one after the other, propelled by pheromone and instinct, and yet somehow these primitive patterns coalesce into striking mimicry of advanced behavior. Ant colonies sometimes go to war with one another, which makes no sense because the planet is so vast and ants are so small. It would be easier for them to find a new home than to keep killing each other over the same territory, if only someone would point them in the right direction. Does anyone give a shit? You can't explain why they should. Inside, the fight has started, but no one is going to get hurt because Cooler Heads Prevail and a few other guys wanted to demonstrate how cool their heads were. They were waiting on the sidelines from the get-go, prepared to break up the fight before it even got started. Curious they didn't do anything before the fists began flying. But then again, what would be the fun in that?

>>17928812
Yes. At the very least I'm not continuing bad habits.

>>17928615
Thanks anon. I think I'll try the time thing and get out some scratch paper or something.
>>17928822
I have to say, that wall of text was pretty great. Very DFW use of making phrases proper nouns. Mind if I save it and use it for inspiration for later? I suppose the dumb question is: because of your belief in the ant like qualities of booze hounds, do you not like the subject or think the idea of a book about that would be a good idea, even if it were on the same level of satire as your post itself? Was the prose or style engaging that I posted earlier? So much of what I've already written has come from my own pseudo intellectual bullshit I've shot at bars, where the discussion is only mildly better than /lit/. Most of the time I was an observer of things like you mentioned, distractions from deep drunk talk with long lost friends. I guess if you spent the time writing that up, it struck some nerve, which is good.

>>17928884
>Mind if I save it and use it for inspiration for later?
Go for it. But I kinda doubt it would be possible to get that kind of perspective from someone who willingly indulged in that social scene for so long. Kind of like that whole "everyone's house but yours smells weird" kind of thing.

>>17928932
There are distinctive social groups, locations, and contexts regarding those who drink. Even if one cannot see their own prison, they easily can see others and make fun of it or be critical of it. Thanks anon.

>haven't put a single new sentence on my script all week
>have about two chapters worth of writing of the self-insert erotic fanfic I started to write to fall asleep two days ago

>>17929208
what's the series?

>>17929421
Love Live! Sunshine!!

>>17928809
Except he skipped the step where you write something good

>>17929504
Nice. Which cutie is it? Chika? Ruby? Kanan? You? Maybe you can try to weave the story into your script when it's all said and done.

>>17929513
Hey now that's not true. Call of the Arcade is really good, anon. Might be the best thing that's become a result of this board. I remember back when Gardner was writing these and posted his progress on here.

>>17929525
Ruby. I really like how she is deceptively strong and determined behind her scaredy girl front. The fanfic is about me being married to her and having a family and stuff.
I doubt I could transplant it to something else but, fuck, why am I so dumb about this. I could've transcribed like an entire arc with the work I put in this.

>>17929557
Fuck off Gardner nobody thinks your comma splice collections are good

>>17929576
Speak for yourself. It doesn't matter what I say you'll just claim I'm Gardener no matter what. He's an accomplished writer and one of us. You're just some nobody insulting one of your own. It's a shame you have such a negative and mean outlook.

>>17920446
How do I write happy endings, frens? All my short stories have tragic, sad, endings. I can't even imagine a fucking happy ending that's satisfying.

>>17928117
>>17922121
I liked this. Your narrator has some thoughtful observations and the way he colors the world is pleasant. I would keep reading this if there were more. It’s well written and flows really easily. I’m reasonably curious as to what happens next. Also I’ve had a couple drinks so I can’t provide more technical feedback sorry

>>17929673
I feel the same, all my endings are my main character descending into some sort of madness/alcoholism/assuming the role of the villain.

It’s contrived most of the time too. I suck.

>>17929208
Ooh baby I do exactly the same thing, it’s Star Wars themed. I’m too ashamed to write it down though.

Does anybody here want some critique? I've got a few hours to spare, so I'll monitor the thread for a while and give a few paragraphs of feedback to anyone who wants it.

>>17929811
Thanks, anon. Good to know it was inciteful and pleasant as opposed to coming off as too pretentious. Some of the other parts I've written may come off as too educated for a dive bar, but I also have known some really smart people who drink their problems away. Also, don't worry on the super technical stuff, I realize I didn't give it a once over edit, so I see my little typos and repetitions and awkward parts.

>>17928344
>I also don't really know how to turn something with 50 characters into any type of traditional story beat, besides each little interaction being a satisfactory mini story. Like, how much can a character really grow in one night? I know there can be events. Bar fights, spilt drinks, fall outs and all that social dynamics etc. Maybe that's the joke, people don't grow. It's supposed to be a snap shot medium for me to spew all my beliefs and jokes through dialogue. I'm not sure.
I relate to this too well. I'll suggest you to group the characters together. Group synergy helps many characters to connect in a strong and simple path. I organized about 13 characters at once by putting them to the same group.

>>17930141
Yeah, I feel like the individuals are generally in groups of about 5 (social groups, staff, bands) and each of those social groups knows 3-5 of the other social groups there. At least, that's my personal experience. I think that'll really help the social relations kinda bleed through because those group norms are what could later be violated when cross over happens. Thanks.

>>17930037
Could you provide some feedback on the whole bar in one night idea? Or did you already do that as another poster?

>>17930411
I've not commented on it yet anon, but I've just finished reading it so I'm going to give you some feedback. I'm going to walk through the writing in the pastebin and then come back through the read to read some contextual stuff to talk about the general idea. It might take me 30-50 minutes or more to get through the write-up so you don't need to refresh every few minutes waiting for the crit to come in.

There are these story ideas I have that are consuming my ability to write anything else. Should I try writing them to get them out of the way?

>>17922121
The first thing I want to talk about in context of the pastebin writing is the difference between "showing" and "telling" in narrative. Almost all of the stuff here in the pastebin is exposition.

The immediate way to change this is to start writing actionable scenes. Instead of telling the reader
>If it had been up to him they would have gone to a sports bar four blocks away from his apartment. If it had been up to him this six dollar beer would have been four and this...
You can show the reader by having the character take actions in a scene which depict his internal desires outwardly. Something like, "Johnny leaned back his bar stool and said, ""There's a sports bar next to my apartment with cheaper bear."
"You cheap shit. They don't have a live band at the sports bar do they? You don't have any taste for atmosphere."

This is quickly strung together, but it gets the same or a similar message across to the reader in a more direct and engaging way than a paragraph of indirect exposition, and at the same time it introduces characters, motivations, and starts to swell narrative promises that the reader will subconsciously attune to while reader therefore building narrative expectations which you can deliver on. The most notable in my example being Johnny's conflict with his friends bar choice leading to his eventual resolution of pushing them into changing bars via negotiation or his eventual attunement to their tastes in music and atmosphere even when it comes at a cost (hence Johnny has already expressed an avenue for growth, in that he will learn to let go of money in order to have a good time with his friends). This is, obviously, how you can have a character "grow" in one night. This is in line with a Joycean epiphany, which acts as the narrative climax and the moment of anticipated and precipitated character alteration. This also explains to the reader the "why" question of the story (Why is this the moment of this characters life that I'm going to read and that you are going to write? The reason being, this is the moment this character grows and learns or changes in some way.)

I'm going to jump to the next bit of crit and maybe talk about your '50 character' issue as well as some of the character issues in the existing writing as well as the more grammatical or sentence level things. I'll do a few numbered posts to compensate for the character limit.
1/?

>>17930632
If you're balls deep in anything else keep going. If not, or if it really is that distracting, knock those ones out - just make sure you finish them.

>>17930649
The other parts?

>>17930756
I was just going to wait for anon to do his thing at his own pace, anon. I've been working on this idea off and on for a few years, so it's not going anywhere any time soon.

>>17930762
Oh okay.

New thread.

>>17930765

>>17922121
>>17930649
One of the first things I noticed was that your existing pastebin sample has mismatched tenses. For example
>If it had been up to him this six dollar beer would have been four and this..., but it was never up to him when his friends (are) involved
'Are' should be 'were' since the account in question is past tense, "It was never up to him when his friends were involved." The correct present tense would be, "It is never up to him when his friends are involved." I know this seems like rudimentary advice but missteps in tense can kill a reader's interest as they notice it on a subconscious level even if they don't know what exactly the reason for their hang-up is.

On the topic of narrative expression and characters it should be stressed that the amount of characters in your story should correspond to their use in your story as well as the length of the piece. In a short story the common advice is to cut the number down to 2-3 characters. This is usually done by fusing characters that have similar purposes or personalities and cutting the remainder. I'm under the impression that this is a longer piece, but even then I would caution that 50 characters sounds comically high. This doesn't mean that you can't have 'setting characters' which are essentially talking set pieces that don't have the space or attention to draw on larger characterizing scenes and developments which signal to the reader when a character is a 'character'. The man reading a newspaper on the subway is not a 'Character' he is a 'character'. The protagonists abusive mother dying of lung cancer, with whom he struggles to reconcile his disastrous upbringing, poor genetics, character flaws, and lack of opportunity IS a 'Character' and not a 'character'.
So, if you have a vignette of 'character' characters that amounts to 50 descriptors of the bar that isn't a problem. If you plan to stack 50 'Character' characters on top of each other in a bar then a single large novel is still not going to be enough space.

On that note, it is time (already within this single pastebin sample) to start introducing some characters. We have, at the end of this first paragraph 1 named character, Johnny, who I assume is the protagonist. At the end of the sample we are still at only 1 character. If you plan to move through several it would pay great dividends to begin introducing a 'core cast' of characters early on. This could be a set of friends that Johnny pre-games with or a car-pooler that he needs to pick up to appease someone at the location who he wants the approval/attention of. This character/s allows us to move Johnny into focus, into conflict, and into the setting in a way that keeps the readers attention. Maybe a girl at the bar that rides with a friend has asked Johnny to pick up her younger brother from practice and (depending on the kid's age) this puts restraints on Johnny's usual plans and the limits of the night for the rest of the cast as well.

2/?

>>17930762
>>17930849
Would you rather I jumped this discussion into the new thread or kept it here? I don't have a preference but it helps you if you know which of the two active threads to monitor.

>>17930859
I suppose the new one. This one finally hit bump limit. I really appreciate the detailed feedback anon.

>>17925082
This is how my overall outlines are. Though, to be honest I don't use much of it. After I got home earlier I figured it wouldn't hurt to tidying things up a bit and adding some locations that are predominant in the story thus far. This does remind me to have a note on hand to remember the names of ships that a scene might take in since I can surprisingly forget some of them rather easily.

>>17925046
Where can I get it for free?

>>17931245
You can get it on their site for a free 30-day trial. It only counts the days you use it as well. For the longest time the beta was free regardless but had to be newed each month or so. I don't know if the open beta is still going on though, but I reckon it isn't. You could probably look on TPB since I imagine it might be cracked already.

Do you follow this advice?
https://litreactor.com/essays/chuck-palahniuk/nuts-and-bolts-%E2%80%9Cthought%E2%80%9D-verbs