/lit/ - Literature

>>17925128
>muh logical motives
filtered pleb

>>17925136
so you're saying you're fine he isn't well written?

>>17925141
I'm fine with his being a mystery.

>>17925141
t.

>>17925152
its not treated like a mystery. McCarthy does this thing where he writes his villains and characters to be "mysterious" when in reality he just didn't wanna flesh them out and write well written characters

>>17925141
>>17925188
Judge is one of best written characters in contemporary literature. Get filtered fucks.

>>17925284
he has no motives or actual reasoning for what he does

>>17925128
Based and motive-pilled

>>17925285
cringe bugman

>>17925128
>>17925188
>criticises McCarthy's characterisation of the Judge when that is what he was actually like IRL

>>17925188
Reddit tier post.

>>17925128
Is that the Joker? I guess Americans truly can only make capeshit

>>17925285
And how does this make him bad? You think villains are bad if they don't stick to archtypes? A big reason why he is so well liked as a villain is because of his mysteriousness.
If you want a theory, then The Judge is the archon. He is trying to soil the protag's (The Kid in specific, but the gang in general too) spiritual journey and lead him/them astray.

>>17925311
How is wanting good characterization reddit?
>>17925327
Id agree if this was McCarthys first and only attempt at this but he literally does it in like every book where the main driving force is just muh mysterious no motives evil for evil sake bullshit that just makes you think he's a bad author instead of a genius of the craft

>>17925141
>>17925188
>noo don't leave it a mystery i dont want to think for myself!

>>17925333
>How is wanting good characterization reddit?
Anything logical is bugman-like, and therefore, reddit. The Judge is good enough a character. Anything about muh past, muh intetions, would ruin the mystery and therefore the character. In this case personification trumps characterization.

>>17925333
>every book where the main driving force is just muh mysterious no motives evil for evil sake.
BM, Ncfom and outer dark are the only ones where evil is in focus. Rest of his books feature a cruel world rather than outright evil.

>>17925128
Indeed. It is a common theme among anglo hacks.

>>17925381
It comes from The Bible. You wouldn't understand.

>>17925377
Sctratch outer dark too in fact. It is also about a cruel world with his most fantastical setting.

>>17925401
I'm Christian, but I can make the distinction between the most powerful being setting an order in the universe and thus establishing himself as the supreme good and literal manichaeism for manchildren who cannot accept that evil is NEVER presented as evil. Try again.

>>17925158
kek good post

>>17925433
>evil is NEVER presented as evil.
are you retarded?

>>17925445
Evil always presents itself as good you ape. Just the contrary to your anglo fantasies.

>>17925485
>Evil always presents itself as good
Not necessarily.

>>17925491
You should go back to your star wars lego bro.

>>17925517
It's you who see the world as only having one possibility. Your smiling lego men can be the baddies.

>>17925128
Would you prefer that he be evil because Stacey Sallysdawter didn't love him back in 10th Grade so he became an incel and took over the world?

>>17925128
Leaving it a mystery fuels the imagination. Your frustration is just a sign that you're unimaginative and cannot cope with it.

>>17925188
> some do nothing brainlet on 4chan is smarter than one of the contemporary masters of literature
do you realise how worthless you sound (and are?)

>>17925128
>character is very obvious representation of colonialism and western expansionism into the American west
>hurrrrrr he's just evil because he's evil, there's literally no point to it at all

>>17925613
>>character is very obvious representation of colonialism and western expansionism into the American west
the most banal reading of the judge ever

>>17925619
Whether you like it or not, it's very obviously a part of the Judge as a character/symbol. Didn't say that's the ONLY thing the judge serves to reference, but to deny that that's not a part of his character is to cherry pick your readings of the text in the face of the obvious and undebatable.

>>17925619
Also, you're wrong af. The most banal and unoriginal reading is the Judge as Satan.

>>17925678
Which is funny because Milton tries to humanize Satan when characterizing him in paradise lost, while McCarthy goes the entirely opposite way.

>>17925613
Manifest destiny precisely, in tangent with him being a Gnostic archon, violence itself (primordial violence) and a representation of the apotheosis of the Faustian spirit.

>>17925327
>If you want a theory, then The Judge is the archon. He is trying to soil the protag's (The Kid in specific, but the gang in general too) spiritual journey and lead him/them astray.
No one but Bloom says this because he's obsessed with gnosticism

>>17925613
Ah, no, except maybe the bit about knowledge. Glanton maybe. The judge actively wants the death of both sides ultimately. Both the whites and the Indians are savages and the judge embodies their common spirit of savagery. He is actually pure savagery.

>>17925835
yeah this. the judge is timeless. if his will 'instantiates' during manifest destiny, he nevertheless cannot be identified with it -- rather, it is identified with him.

>>17925816
Leo Daugherty also wrote a gnostic reading in the early 90s

>>17925848
>>17925816
Don't Bloom and Daugherty disagree with each other? Bloom didn't push for the archon interpretation, he believed that the work was gnostic but The Judge was undefinable. (He quoted Kid's recollection in one interview)

>>17925613
No he's not, you retard. He's a representation of war and chaos.

RIZZLA

ING

When you peel back justification and character motivation what is left is pure evil. If evil can be explained than it's not evil is it?

>>17925285
That you know of.

>>17925188
>be me
>don’t have a motivation be be on lit right now
>shit
>I must be poorly written

>>17925128
lol @ all the chuds seething at this post
you go, sista! XD

>>17927066

The Americans are awake.

>>17925670
Cite or die

>>17925285
Yes he does. Did you even read the book? He is an avatar of war and chaos, believing it to be the true nature of humanity that we have suppressed in our modern selves. He spends the entire book systematically convincing and making people do absolutely horrendously violent things so that they admit to themselves that humans are fundamentally violent animals and embrace their true natures.

>>17925517
Consider reading up on Christianity.

Could Holden have some relation to Shiva given his connections to Nietzschean ideals
>>17924940

>>17925128
that is a criticism for bad products.
also, "I like being evil" is a completely valid motivation.

Anyone who complains about character motives watched too much anime

>>17927438
this.
Op is a brainlet

>>17927486
I did in fact:
>15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Literally this is how evil is presented, not like in your anglo fantasies for children "uuuuh itz so evil and bad and ugly because it's evil!!!".

Characters in literature are not people, they're literary devices, and they should be treated as such. Psychoanalyzing a character should only be done if said character was written with that in mind, but unless you're reading Dostoyevsky, that's probably not the case

>>17925306
>every retard in this thread ignored this post
Some men like this just exist, who defy understanding or categorization. McCarthy's portrayal of one is among the best.

>>17928224
Based

>>17925285
>he needs a gay little reason like having a bad childhood or something to make him well written
evil for the sake of evil is the most true to life. some people are just bad by nature.

>>17925158
BASED

>>17925306
this. people always forget that Judge Holden was a real guy who was very similar to his fictional portrayal.
pic related is a painting of the real life Judge Holden from My Confession

>>17925485
stop speaking in absolutes faggot

>>17925613
one of the reasons the judge is such a great character is because people project so many things onto him. it ends up saying more about the person making the claims than the judge. i really doubt mccrathy had this idea at the front of his mind when he was creating the judge.

>>17925158
lmao

>>17925361
>Anything logical is bugman-like, and therefore, reddit.
Retard outs himself.

>>17927438
Ok but WHY is he like that. Why is he obsessed with war and chaos and believes all human are violent animals. Theres no backstory or motivate or reasoning for the judge to be the judge he just exists and that's shitty story telling I'm sorry to say

>>17925188
>pls explain it to me pls pls pls mummeee mummeee!! Reeeeee I don't get iiiitttttt ahhhhhh

>>17929488
Are you retarded or what? How much of an explanation do you want for something? Everything isn't just handed to you in literature you fucking cretin. Work out an interpretation or go with the story. If you can't appreciate that the novel is worthwhile without everything being painstakingly explained to you then you shouldn't be critiquing the book

It was a bit over the top when the Judge shot the puppies for no reason. Comical actually. Ridiculous. You're still a faggot, though, OP.

>>17930857
>Work out an interpretation
theres nothing to interpret though. It's just a character that does evil things just because, you can explain motives and give reasoning without having it painstakingly explained to you McCarthy does this well with every other character he writes but when it comes to like Anton or The Judge he just goes WELL UH THEY EVIL and you suck it up going wow so genius look at all my interpretations that aren't supported by the book and are essentially headcanons

>>17925128
Do you not understand the desire to be cruel and vicious for no reason? Are you some oversocialized man-child?

>>17931357
People in real life aren't evil for evils sake, they have bad upbringings and bad childhoods if they're just pure evil as adults

>>17931366
This mythical undamaged person does not exist. That's assuming that being undamaged is even natural, and not conditioning by society to make them more docile.

This confirms my fear, you are an oversocialized man-child.

>>17931444
You will never meet someone who is just naturally evil since birth. If you think you do you don't know them and their thought process and what has happened to them

>>17931366
>>17931448
back to r*ddit.

>>17925284
Wrong. Seethe cunt. Ywnbaw.

>>17925128
Did anyone else have a sense of positive feeling after the book ended? It's weird because even though the book is horrible in a tragic sense and everyone dies I felt a sense of peace after I read it

>>17931448
You will never meet someone who is just naturally good since birth. If you think you do you don't know them and their thought process and what has happened to them.

>>17931486
Humans are naturally good and have natural sympathy and empathy unlike animals

>>17931490
Animals have empathy.

>>17931490
Not only is that claim about animals shaky, depending on how you might define sympathy and empathy, but you have no reason to suspect that the existence of sympathy or empathy exclude the desire to do evil.

>>17931480
Cope more tranny

>>17930872
Judge never shot the puppies. Read the book

>>17925128
Sociopaths exist anon

>>17930937
>I don't understand them so they are wrong

>>17931448
How the hell do you even know that Judge was naturally evil since birth? You are accusing others of forming headcanon and that's all you are doing yourself.
No backstory =/= Le naturally bad guy

>>17925128
I’m feeling the inverse of this with Razumikhin in Crime and Punishment.

>>17925128
Judge Holden is the literally the best thing about Blood Meridian. Unfortunately, he's only a good villain in the same sense that Raoh is a good villain. They're only memorable because everyone else is so one-note and forgettable.

>>17925128
what does the villain symbolize?

>>17932486
Back to >>>/a/

>>17932491
Faustian spirit to know and master everything.

Rank literary villains using this tier list as a reference.

>>17932540
The elder tier villain is so fucking cliched and sterile. I bet some /co/, /v/ or /a/ autist made this list originally.

>>17932603
You do get that "villains who did nothing wrong" threads are supposed to be ironic, right?

>>17932624
They have been going on for so long that they no longer are. I don't frequent them though.

>>17930937
>Headcanon
Do you read much at all? Not all things in literature are explained to you. You have to be able to interpret things yourself. There are multiple ways you could read the Judge outside of "man who is evil for the sake of it". Look at the ending of the book. A lot happens there that isn't explained but is clearly pointing towards some overall meaning. That's the way McCarthy is. He doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to think. If you think that's lazy on his part then he clearly isn't a writer you will appreciate. But you seem to be picking at one aspect of a story and not appreciating the way the story works as a whole.

>>17925128
He's the judge. He judges the gang and those of them who succumbed to evil all died. But he couldn't kill the kid, because, as he says, the kid never killed without pity and mercy and stayed good at heart. The kid wouldn't even kill the judge, the one character in the story who was undoubtedly evil and deserved it, no matter how he and everyone tried to coax him into it. It's pretty straightforward.

>>17934124
>But he couldn't kill the kid
he kills the kid at the end of the book

the juge a prety cool guy

>>17925158
Bravo

>>17925562
Perfect headcanon

>>17925158
Destroyed.

>>17925141
Yes, stop reading for plot, the first pleb filter.

>>17925285
Does that scare you?

>>17934148
No

Judgenstein Holdenberg

>>17925141
>>>/r/eddit