/lit/ - Literature

>>17915649
Yeah, let's let mass murderers out of prison. That sounds like a great idea.

Go try to find a single "prison abolition" author who will even address what is to be done with murderers and rapists. They always say that asking such a question misses the point and we should ask why societies have violence in the first place or some similar question-dodging bullshit.

The prison abolition movement is the stupidest movement on Earth, bar none. They are 100% intellectually dishonest and stupid, which is a funny but also infuriating combination.

if prison abolition means we let based uncle ted out and make him postmaster general let's do it

Defund the police now

Why is everyone always so against anything? Question anything and everyone will try to call you some type of retard

>>17915726
Lmao based
>>17915728
I'm going to check that book out, thank you, pic related is another good one similar to that topic

Americans have a system that tries to force 1st world level order in population that's becoming more and more 3rd world like. If you can't understand this relationship you will never understand the role of prisons.

There used to be a time when New England's crime rate was at the lowest levels ever recorded in human history, this was achieved by extremely severe and brutal puritan law. You could sue your adult child for disobeying you with the maximal sentence being death penalty(!), old bachelors and spinsters were being expelled, heretics(quakers) brutalised etc. etc.
Now what was that for? Well, you got rid of the people who could never fit in in the society. The kind drifters for whom the only way of avoiding the life of crime is being forced to work. You've met these people if you've ever been around lower class people or even more so, underclass of prostitutes, junkies or drug dealers, they may have been able to live normal life as serfs, but give them freedom and they destroy their life just to destroy the society around then once this is done.

What's happening in America is that the number of people with the competences to become such drifters is becoming higher and higher. There's more than just 3rd worldisation of the demographics going on, you also have dysgenics as well as abandonment of religion and a culture of contempt for order. Probably even more than these.
Now this by itself wouldn't cause this prison overflow thing if it wasn't for the fact that there's a lot of people who think it's still 1950 and the country is supposed to have some kind of law and order. Had they just commonly accepted that they're now like Mexico, Albania or Philippines and they'd have laxer laws, less effective police force and would just bear with the fact that it's not 1950 anymore, they don't however want to admit that the country has declined over the last 70 or more years so they send a lot of people to prison.

Betteridge’s law of headlines

Prisons aren't obsolete.

If you want to change how prisons function, fine, but the thing itself is not obsolete until crime no longer exists.

Throwing away an entire system is easy to suggest, but you cannot predict what the consequence is when it's done. That is why wholesale abolishment is stupid versus testing steps.

Why is American leftism so fucking boring

It’s either mainstream progressive shit that the establishment endorses like LGBT and BLM, or its just saying “abolish” in front of random institutions to seem radical even though it will change nothing about how the system works or come close to actually happening. Seriously, check how many leftist politicians like AOC or Cori Bush just do nothing aside from tweet “abolish this!” over and over

>>17915714
Imma prison abolishinist and I have find that point annoying too. I’m A proponent Of mob rule so when asked that question that what I say

>>17915649
We could abolish prisons but only if we abolished blacks too.

>>17915649
prisons work more or less a for some purposes, reintegration programs fail most of times

that something is new doesn't mean it's better or the right path to follow

Us has more strict laws which prevent niggers from behaving like niggers in a first world country. Of course we have a high prison population. Whites have high standards which niggers will never meet.

>>17915649
>regarding the efficacy of incarceration.
we do not incarcerate people because it's effective

>>17915772
I'm kinda following you but I don't know what dysgenics is and I don't understand how in one breath you say stricter laws reduced crime but in another you say that we should reduce our strictness.

No state should be allowed to imprison its own citizens

>>17915932
Have you seen most Americans? They should have the highest prison population

Why did the prison population explode right at the time that violent crime was on a steep downtrend? Because the prison system is now an integral part of our economy, providing cheap labor and new jobs for an otherwise floundering economy

These are just my armchair policies, but if Biden said "Anon, fix the prison system!" this is what I would do:
>Abolish private prisons
>Setup a massive drug addiction recovery program. Drug related crimes (possession, etc) go here, not to jail
>Abolish bail
>Fund public defense
>Loosen drug-related laws

>>17915987
>t. teenager

>>17915649
What's Saudi Arabia's prison population?

>>17915649
Agreed. We should exile and execute, not incarcerate.

"prison abolition" as a slogan has the exact same problems as "ACAB" or "defund the police". The studied policy positions behind them (drug legaliztion, closing private prisons, publicly-funded mental health services) are easily defensible, but by turning them into these short, provocative phrases it creates a ton of room for willful idiots like >>17915676 >>17915714 >>17915726 to come in and go "but what about the murderers?!??!?" as if the goal of the movement is the immediate release of all prisoners regardless of their offence.

>>17915772
The "third worldization" of america is happening but its not the result of "demographic shift" or "dysgenics", its the result of major political movements that actively desire third world status, people who desire a turn away from liberal principles like rule of law, equality under the law, and democracy. And its the white people who want this.

>>17915772
based

Okay but what do we do about black people?
Elephant in the room folks

>>17916680
I say keep them in prison

>>17915816
holy shit i didn't know you people could read

>>17915649
>In thinking about the possible obsolescence of the prison, we should ask how it is that so many people could end up in prison
niggers
>without major debates regarding the efficacy of incarceration.
wow how convenient

>>17915772
this

the modern technological world is simply making large parts of the population no longer relevant to a functioning economy. UBI, public transport and decriminalized drugs are only minor solutions to this issue

its more realistic to compare the US to places like Brazil or South Africa than say, Denmark or Sweden.

the large Negroid population will always make things different. White Americans commit most crimes at rates similar to Western Europeans

>>17916156
liberal principles are literally how we got into this problem, we are here because we gave too much slack, we proclaimed tolerance as a virtue and that tolerance allowed negative forces to fester and grow and now the lunatics are running the asylum

Having worked 11 years so far in a state prison in a Western US state as a CO, Sgt and now Lt (Shift Commander) i have some thoughts

about half of inmates are mentally ill. most never get any kind of medical attention until they are already behind bars. some are violent but most are just "sick", confused, low IQ etc.. prison is not usually the best place for these guys even tho they can sometimes be dangerous.

the remainder of inmates are "one shot morons" (i,e. i got mad at my wife and stabbed her. i drove drunk and killed two people, etc..) these guys are the small minority who will probably never be arrested after leaving prison.

followed by the life time scumbags. these are guys who don't have any diagnosable mental illness but for whatever reason just like to be pieces of shits. face tattoos, lots of baby momma drama, huge arrest records etc..

so basically:
expand mental health services for most of the guys in group 1.
keep normal prisons for group 2
public execution for group 3

>>17916842
Yoo are you Jack McKraken? I wouldn't be surprised at all if that dude posted. If not you should check out his book, dude was a CO and wrote a book about it.

most "prison reformers" fail to realize that there are a significant number of inmates who don't want to be "helped". they aren't mentally ill and they don't want to do programming (job training, classes etc..) or if they do partake in those programs they are just sliding through or trying to run some kind of hustle.

in the past these kind of guys would have been strung up in the public square or otherwise driven out of society. today we give them every option to reproduce. welfare, SNAP, WIC, section 8.

we are incentivizing the reproduction of a class of people who in the past would have been ostracized or killed.

>>17916865
Not him but thanks for the rec. that book looks interesting

the "The Devil's Butcher Shop" by Roger Morris is much closer to my region (and a pretty good read)

the santa fe prison riot is overshadowed in public consciousness by Attica but it was much nastier

>>17915728
Fine, go ahead, get rid of the police. But good luck getting people to give up their guns then. It will be the old west again.

>>17916946
more like mexico or brazil, where the gangs/cartels have access to guns but YOU don't

>>17916966
How are they going to take my guns away from me? The police?

Bring back the duel and exile to remote lands for every crime, society would be a lot better off.

>>17915649
>written by angela davis, communist terrorist.
no bitch you belong in a prison.

>>17916842
Low IQ isn't something that can be treated, especially as an adult.

>>17916842
OP here, thanks for sharing your experience. What are your thoughts on solitary confinement/SHU. I'm of the opinion that at the very least prison should not seek to maximize the suffering of those sent there. Imprisonment and other measures which result in cutting off an offender from the outside world are afflictive by the very act of taking from said person the right of self-determination, by depriving them of liberty. I feel the prison system should avoid aggravating the suffering inherent in such a situation.

>>17915649
The American prison system exists to control the black population, it is useful and anything but obsolete.

Why do redditors always try to equate prisons with slavery?

>>17917689
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing?wprov=sfla1

>Convict leasingwas a system of forcedpenal laborwhich was historically practiced in theSouthern United Statesand overwhelmingly involvedAfrican-Americanmen... In the earlier forms of the practice, convict leasing provided prisoner labor to private parties, such as plantation owners and corporations (e.g.Tennessee Coal and Iron Company,Chattahoochee Brick Company). The lessee was responsible for feeding, clothing, and housing the prisoners.

>Convict leasing in the United States was widespread in the South during theReconstruction Period (1865–1877) after the end of the Civil War.... Farmers and businessmen needed to find replacements for the labor force once their slaves had been freed. Some Southern legislatures passedBlack Codesto restrict free movement of blacks and force them into employment with whites. For instance, several states made it illegal for a black man to change jobs without the approval of his employer.If convicted ofvagrancy blacks could be imprisoned, and they also received sentences for a variety of petty offenses. States began to lease convict labor to the plantations and other facilities seeking labor, as the freed men were trying to withdraw and work for themselves. This provided the states with a new source of revenue during years when they were financially strapped, and lessees profited by the use of forced labor at below-market rates.

>"It was a form of bondage distinctly different from that of the antebellum South in that for most men, and the relatively few women drawn in, this slavery did not last a lifetime and did not automatically extend from one generation to the next. But it was nonetheless slavery – a system in which... men were compelled to labor without compensation, were repeatedly bought and sold, and were forced to do the bidding of white masters through the regular application of extraordinary physical coercion."

IDK retard you tell me

>>17917959
>wikipedia
ngmi

>>17917967
Nice cope brainlet

https://books.google.com/books?id=im68YsXbvZ0C&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://www.newsweek.com/book-american-slavery-continued-until-1941-93231

>>17915816
Your comment went from cringe to beyond based in seconds.
In all honesty, there are people like you or right-libertarians who suggest Wild West mob justice and the NAP to deal with murderers and kiddie fuckers, but a lot of these freaks genuinely don't have an answer to thje problems it would cause beyond delusional "crime only happens because people are poor".

>It is important to grasp the fact that the prison as we know it today did not make its appearance on the historical stage as the superior form of punishment for all times
In the past they used to hang people for even stealing a few coins from a lord. Maybe that's what she wants.

Also a lot of countries have lower prison populations because it's really expensive. It doesn't mean criminals are being treated some other way (the exception is white countries which actually have lower crime rates).

as a progressive i'm a believer in community solutions in place of police and prisons.

>>17915649
Yes.
I propose three tiers of punishment:
1) Home arrest + Community service
2) Sterilization (especially for violent crimes)
3) Death penalty for the more serious crimes
In 2 generations we will have an utopia. Simple as.

>>17915649
Only a nigger would come up with this

Only a reddit psued would take it seriously

Instead of prison, lawbreakers should have their citizenship revoked then deported to some big island somewhere.

Agreed.

Just execute criminals instead.

>>17918451
Thats how we got Australia

>>17915816
I respect your opinion. I'm more of a mind that juries are stupid and I believe that corporal punishment and restitution are better than incarceration in almost all cases. I don't agree with mob rule, I prefer that we have judges who would be like elders or druids or scholars and those wise men would decide on guilt based on eye witnesses and pure evidence. No court lawyers.

>>17915649
They would be if their denizens were repatriated to the dark continent

>>17916156
Those "idiots" know exactly what they are doing. They would complain anyway. Also,
>"third worldization"
exist because inability of america to keep up with other countries.

Nah, just send them off to an island like Australia and abolish death penalty. Surely, a board that reads Dostoevsky and has IJ in their top 10 would understand why the death penalty is just legalized murder.

remove trial by jury which is dumb in itself and especially dumb in a multiracial "society", instead the accused simply flips a coin before a judge, heads = guity, tails = innocent, God wills it. if guilty a similar process can be used to determine punishment.

>>17916794
>the large Negroid population will always make things different.
How so?

>>17916887
Then we should determine how they became this way. Also, proofs?

>>17918720
>Then we should determine how they became this way
It’s innate.

>>17918763
Citation please. From a reputable source.

>>17918763
That's a pretty heavy claim.

>>17915914
If your problem is that too many people are in prison, then the solution is to accept that ok you're gonna have a lot of crime, ok favelas are going to be there, ok you need to live in a secluded, gated community for the kind of life that your grandparents or great grandparents could have. Now obviously is just accepting the decline and making amends with it, which is antithetical for a lot of people, but there's no will to reverse it and there are these abolish prison kind of people around, their predecessors pushed everything they wanted to push through eventually, so maybe that will be in the end the only way out.

Dysgenics is a natural selection within a population that's ultimately harmful to it, the opposite of eugenics. So think of spotted hyenas known for "bossy" females with gigantic clits, the size of the clit correlates with birth complications, but the big-clitted hyenas are still more likely to have pups than the others(because only few "alpha" females in a group have them). This means the future of spotted hyenas holds more birth complications. In humans it's usually referred to in relation to decrease in pro-social genetic traits like intelligence. Now mind you that a lot of people will say - well that's just natural thing and that society is going to decline or collapse because of it isn't dysgenics. However this is ignoring the very obvious fact that it is in the nature of modern man to build civilization.

The high-t, low IQ segment of our society should be committing war crimes overseas not making a nuisance for the low-t, high IQ law abiders at home.

The American prison system is what happens when dumb mutts say stupid shit like "all rapists should go to prison forever," not realizing that they themselves are rapists because of that one time ten years ago when they had sex with a girl who later decided she wished she hadn't.

>>17915772
I don't 100% agree with you but I feel a similar way about the issue with rapidly growing homelessness, especially in certain urban areas, looking towards the "tent city" phenomenon that seems to be more and more common everywhere. There's a huge question on how to fix it and end homelessness, or at least at this scale, and every solution is failing. I feel like the biggest problem is that because Americans will not just accept the country has declined in some ways where there are large portions of the population in that poverty level, their "solutions" and inability to accept the reality as a permanent symptom is actually hurting the homeless population more. In other countries, there is no delusions. "Homeless" just build their own homes on the outskirts of cities or on the hillside, and eventually it becomes slums, many times legally recognized by the state so they can have access to public utilities, poltical representation, and road connections.
Americans think it's only a temporary "crisis", so they will not allow the homeless to start building semi permanent housing for themselves, they are forced to just live in tents or cars, unable to form actual communities and some stability.
Allowing them to do this would mean Americans will have to accept that the country is not what it once was. The bottom of society is being hurt more so by our delusions and ego

>>17916156
>The "third worldization" of america is happening but its not the result of "demographic shift" or "dysgenics", its the result of major political movements that actively desire third world status, people who desire a turn away from liberal principles like rule of law, equality under the law, and democracy. And its the white people who want this.
Ok let's look at rule of law. There are many jury experiments where you form a jury to rule on fake cases. They were obviously focused on detecting racism among white only juries, so what were the results? I don't remember the exact values(and I'm on mobile so I don't care to search for metastudies for it), but it was something like white only jury's sentences for blacks were averaging at 53rd percentile of sentences for white person. Black only jury meanwhile sentenced whites at high-60 percentile of sentences they'd give for blacks. Now we can argue that they're not giving whites higher sentences in relation to white juries but rather they give lower sentences to blacks, but it's splitting hair.
If anyone is undermining the rule of law it's the tribalistic elements within society, which guess what, can't exactly be called WASP and these are not on the rise.

>>17915808
We should abolish the cia though

>>17915914
Dysgenics is the genetic decrease of socially/subjectively valued traits, i.e. prosocial behavior, intelligence, good health. Some people will say dysgenics doesn't exist, because who are you to say what is valued or not valued. However, none of these people would want an ugly, unintelligent child with bipolar disorder.

>>17915808
its controlled opposition. they quite literally get their opinions from mainstream press, which itself isn't going to rock the boat lest they lose sponserships. both sides of the political spectrum are like this since the average person grew up with television dictating their world view, giving themselves very little time to form their own opinions.

in truth, very few people care about politics. most people just want a tribe to belong to and something talk about beyond the weather. this why absolute retards with contradictory politics can rise to promience; nobody really gives shit about the nuances.

>>17915772
Tip top post lad

>>17918829
nuance is a meme, almost all problems can be solved by "just shoot them" and "build stuff"

>>17915987
Britain did all these things and their crime rate is still a hundred times larger than the 50s

>>17915649
no more niggers no more prisons. Simple as

>>17918855
true. politics just tries to find a way to justify it since saying you killed millions people for a bigger house isnt a good look.

I agree with OP to an extent, prison should be partially replaced with violent corporal punishment and death. Robbed a 711? Have your arms and legs broken. Shot somebody in a public or residential area, or where someone uninvolved in what is most likely gang or drug violence? Firing squad for you. Locking up people in cages like animals doesn't actually modify their behavior in a useful way, might as well just communicate to them in a language they understand. Criminals lack the capacity to consider the future. They don't understand the gravity of a 2 year sentence for armed robbery, but they might understand having their ass whooped in public as a humiliation.

>>17919010
>Robbed a 711? Have your arms and legs broken. Shot somebody in a public or residential area, or where someone uninvolved in what is most likely gang or drug violence? Firing squad for you.
You know in history when punishments for crimes were like this crime rates were extremely high compared to today right? And it didn't fair well to public perception of authorities. Not to mention now you'll just encourage the guy robbing the 7/11 to kill all witnesses because the stakes are higher

>>17915649
Liberals think police and prisons are problematic and harmful for blacks and mexicans, the largest criminal groups. But they don't realize that it's the police and the feds that are the reason that the klan doesn't still run the streets in, let's say, "diverse" areas. just remember that it wasn't that long ago that David Duke was elected to the house of representatives. You might think it's icky or whatever for Officer Sneed to kneel on a feral ape's neck while the fentanyl and meth overdose kills him but I can assure you that the alternative is much worse.

And since we're on the subject, I suppose OP is also glad that Zimmerman and the officer who shot gentle giant Mike Brown are walking free? After all, putting them in prison wouldn't make sense.

>>17919035
You're right. We should do nothing because that way stakes are so low he won't even bring a gun to the robbery.

Increase the budget to social services
Decriminalise drug possession and reduce jail time for non violent drug offences
Keep violent offenders in jail, but focus more on rehabilitation rather than punishment in order to reduce recidivism, and offer then the ability to work, vote and return to normal society once released.
Abolish private prisons
And increase the min wage of prisoners while we're at it

>>17919043
Braindead people like you are the death of any discussion or thinking. You can find your friend here >>17915676

>>17919035
okay, now imagine if the witnesses were all armed with grenade launchers and hunting knives

>>17919043
Low iq simple minded faggot

>>17919074
They wouldn't do shit. Most people don't want to brutally murder others

>>17919049
or, just shoot them and spend all that money on building high speed trains

>>17919049
>Increase the budget to social services
>Decriminalise drug possession and reduce jail time for non violent drug offences
>Keep violent offenders in jail, but focus more on rehabilitation rather than punishment in order to reduce recidivism, and offer then the ability to work, vote and return to normal society once released.
>Abolish private prisons
>And increase the min wage of prisoners while we're at it

>>17919084
even less do they want to be murdered by a robber who's intent on killing all witnesses

prisons are mainly full of men, and mentally challenged, which used to be housed in asylums men or very smart very dangerous men. Either way, biology takes much more risks with men, giving your really smart chads and the rest suffer. This is a way to keep the gene pool strong. The prison is just a manifestation of this.

women are average and so do not occupy prison so much.

On the flip side, the US and much of the world now is an open prison.

The closest you come to freedom now is in your own house/warehouse where you on your private property (sans any females) are protected by the state against all others.

this the new way young white men achieve they youtube and buy a warehouse to youtube from

>>17919098
What the fuck are you even saying? Just piling on random irrelevant hyperboles onto a point stating that extreme punishments makes criminals more desperate when committing crimes. This board is full of retarded children

>>17919035
But that's horseshit
Arab countries that still practice these are doing much better with their crime rates than most of western Europe which has crime rates two or three digits higher than what it did 70 years ago, right before all sense was lost
>>17919080
That's actually what's done in bank robberies
They give the registers notes that they're in fact robbing them and they give the cash
The chase begins afterwards
>>17919049
Britain did all these things and crime only went up

>>17919113
I directly refuted your points, albeit in a light-hearted manner, because your arguments were so silly they deserved nothing more. Now you have no come back, you bitch and moan.

>>17919129
>Arab countries that still practice these are doing much better with their crime rates
This has nothing to do with the capital punishment system. The extreme punishments carried out by the state are just an expression of the culture that produces low crime, it can disappear tomorrow and nothing will change. Their culture is different, meaning the type of life situations that would lead a person to becoming a criminal is minimal, and the culture that would produce criminals isn't what is found there. Reputation+family support+shame is big.
To throw your understanding on its head, and to show that their low criminality is a result of culture not extreme punishments, look at terrorism. Terrorists in Arab countries have the most extreme punishments by the state, yet the region produces the most out of any place on earth, even compared to countries where somebody that committed an act of terrorism would not result in death. Why is this?

>>17919035
>You know in history when punishments for crimes were like this crime rates were extremely high compared to today right?

What is it you guys always say? Oh, that's right.

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION

>>17919157
>I directly refuted your points
Lmfao, yup you actually are a stupid, simple minded child. Your brain works like that of a binary system fed with base inputs, and outlandish irrelevant hypotheticals only a retarded child would thing "refutes" anything.

>>17919176
Take your L and move on, this is getting embarrassing.

>>17915728
stop trying to astroturf /lit/. We're a small board but your "theory" doesn't mean shit here. We'll tell you the same shit we tell all the plebs: read the greeks
>>17915726
Now this is based.

>>17919173
t. Poltrash migrant living in a world of extremely simple meme assigned signs and associations inhabited in order to cope with a world of complexity. Literally stupid faggot superstitions and the "other" because their brain shuts down when anything gets more complicated than a dr suess book

>>17916156
>The studied policy positions behind them (drug legaliztion, closing private prisons, publicly-funded mental health services) are easily defensible

But that is not the extent of prison abolitionist movements, and you know it. Some are minimalists in the way you describe, but plenty reject not only private/for-profit prisons or the war or drugs, but policies of incarceration as such, favoring "restorative justice" as replacement, that is, the turning of criminal responsibility into civil one. Read major names on the subject, such as Hulsman.

And in this context, "what about murders and rapists" is actually the least important question (even if it is a valid one). Because such policy defangs the state of all coercive power, which can lead only to one of two outcomes: either anarchy (and thus "prison abolition" really is just a mask of respectability for goold old anarchism), or actual totalitarianism (since political agents would themselves be freed of any coercive responsibility for their actions, which would, paradoxically, allow them to use arbitrary power as they wish against whoever they deem an enemy).

>>17919187
Shut the fuck up you pathetic little faggot. Unfortunately for you, nobody else is as big as a coping retard as you as to believe you refuted shit with your embarrassing hyperbole.
Right now without speaking like a braindead 13 year old, directly refute that extreme punishments makes criminals more desperate when committing crimes.

Literally every study ever conducted, and every thinker in anything relevant to this subject, has found that more severe punishments does not deter or lower crime. So 95% of the fags in this thread(most being pol migrant "le alpha dog manly man anti liberal anti empathy" teenage contrarian cringe) should kill themselves

>>17919201
this is you right now

>>17915676
>>Yeah, let's let mass murderers out of prison.
this happened in france during the lockdown

>>17919216
Somebody should have told Hitler and Stalin then, why did they waste all those resources in concentration camps for dissenters when they could just have fined them or used community service instead, since the threat of harsh punishment doesn't alter behavior anyway.

>>17919218
I was correct, you're an actual child
>>17919235
are polfags actually this stupid or are they trolling

>>17915808>>17918829

atheism is about posturing during the day and going to orgies at night: they get orgasms and a narrative where they are virtuous heroes

>>17919264
Your god isn't real

>>17917089
it is needed in certain circumstances. if you have an inmate who is going to pretty much attack staff/volunteers/other inmates you need to have them controlled.
then you have inmates who want to "gas" other people, they piss/shit/cum/bleed into a cup and keep it hidden until they can toss it in the face of someone.

solitary is needed as the "prison within the prison" for the biggest pieces of shit

>>17919261
>the common sense opinion that punishment deters behavior is /pol/faggotry

Answer the question, you literal homosexual.

>>17918287
oh i bet faggot lol

>>17918696
what is this, a fucking joke?

>>17919216
>>17919261
>randomly bring up /pol/, irrelevant to the conversation like schizo
First, take you meds. And harsh punishments go defer crime, just read up into the puritanical era in Britain.

>>17918720
volunteer and spend some time in a state prison

>>17919275
What are you a faggot? Genocide to prevent crime? Why not just kill everybody but yourself therefore lowering the chance if being a victim of crime less than zero? Better yet, why not just kill YOURSELF? You'll never be a victim if you're not alive!!!! Why stop at concentration camps, gulags, and firing squads?

>>17919293
>>randomly bring up /pol/
You trash speak like you all come out of assembly line, same memes, viewpoints, "takes", general vibe. Don't deny it faggot

>>17919302
>avoiding the point

Did the threat of being sent to a concentration camp stop people from expressing dissent against Hitler or Stalin or any other dictator or didn't it, that they would have expressed if it were a lighter punishment instead?

It's a yes or no question.

>>17919302
Killing criminals does decrease crime, just like killing low IQ people will decrease posters like you

>>17919308
Retard. harsh punishment lead to decrease crime is a common point of view nearly everyone holds

>>17919293
>harsh punishments go defer crime
Post your evidence. Because I can just look up whether or not it does in three seconds and find thousands of studies that prove the opposite

>>17919322
yes anon, dictators wasted all that energy trying to deter dissent with harsh punishments

>>17919309
>>avoiding the point
No you stupid faggot, its extending the "point" to its logical conclusion and proving the absurdity of it, ie: the idea of "crime prevention" taking precedence of literally anything else in society where implemented techniques to prevent it lead to genocides. But why stop there? Its am arbitrary ending to a approach that is already down the path
>>17919310
>>17919317
Stop talking you fool

>>17919322
>Because I can just look up whether or not it does in three seconds and find thousands of studies that prove the opposite

>>17919331
And pol pot killed everybody with glasses. Ok? Stupid faggot, because if somebody did it it means it must work? Dictators do stupid shit, humans have done stupid shit using all their effort for all of history.
Post the evidence supporting the idea that extreme punishments prevents crime or shut the fuck up

>>17919338
Outstanding. THIS is the power of nu/lit/. Trash

>>17919322
> I can just look up whether or not it does in three seconds and find thousands of studies that prove the opposite
This is vaush tier stupidity. But i'll bite, just look at examples in the extremes like in the soviet union or fascist Germany, do you think their hash laws against dissent curb such actions or encourage it?

>>17919331
>if this guy did it that must mean its right
What is your iq?

>>17919271
midwit detected
cringe.

>>17919335
>No you stupid faggot, its extending the "point" to its logical conclusion and proving the absurdity of it

It's not anywhere related to the point, you fucking retard. The claim made is:

>harsh punishments don't deter behavior

THAT claim was the one taken to its obvious, extreme conclusion that shows just how ridiculous it is:

>then dictators were fools in implementing their extreme punishments to control their subjects's behavior, Stalin could just have implemented some community service instead of the Gulags since people would obey just the same

Now, it's obvious that no one here is advocating for the practice of concentration camps or shit out of ethical concerns, but the sheer practice of literally all dictatorial governments in the 20th century, of slaveholders towards slaves, and basically every despot ever, should be proof beyond doubt that harsh punishment does alter behavior, and it's such a stupidly obvious thing to notice that one needs to hypnotize oneself into not seeing it.

>>17919342
>extreme punishments
How would you define extreme punishments"?. But I'm getting the sense that you aren't against punishment to deter crime only what you would describe as "extreme punishments" right?

>>17919372
Prison is extreme punishment.

>>17919376
okay, now just trolling

>>17919348
>stupidity
Wanting evidence for a claim that has been studied tens of thousands of times is now "stupidity", wow
>in the soviet union or fascist Germany, do you think their hash laws against dissent curb such actions or encourage it?
A. Poltical violence for poltical aims is not "crime prevention" its for maintaining and protecting power. Just like how a King killing his noble he thinks is plotting against him has zero to do whether or not there are more rapists and theives in a city in his domain
B. In Nazi Germany arrests went up, because many new nonsensical laws were being enacted, and not at any point did this new harsh punishment of crime slow the arrest rate, aka the crime rate. On top of nazi Germany sanctioning their own legal violence. And in the soviet union, there was never at any point a decrease in crime
B. See above, this logic is absurd and is not at all applicable to preventing crimes in civil spaces between citizens

>>17915649
Abolish prisons and replace them with 3 levels of punishment:

Fines (for regulatory offences/minor crimes)
Corporal punishment (minor crimes, assault, if you can't pay your fines you get flogged also)
Death penalty (murder, rape)

>>17919360
>It's not anywhere related to the point, you fucking retard.
T. Retard unable to understand increasingly abstract implications given a presented idea. Revealing your retardation
>everything else in this post
Again, for the third fucking time, just because somebody did something does not mean it works. Yes, dictators can be stupid idiots(like you), yes dictators can believe something can work when it doesn't. I assume your a Stalinist communist right? Because Stalin implemented this ideology with great effort, therefore everything involved in it must be 100$ correct of course. What? You say no? Do you seriously belive stalin would waste his time if it wasn't correct?
And also, this is poltical, nothing to do with crime prevention see>>17919393

>>17919356
>BRO I SAW THAT SUPER BASED MIDWIT MEME ON POL WHERE THE STUPID MAN LIKE GOD BUT THE REDDIT FEDORA GUYZ DIDNT!!!!! BECAUSE DEY ARE MIDWITS BUT ME BEING A GENIUS AKSHULLY AGREE WITH STUPID MAN!!!!!
teenager

>>17919393
>On top of nazi Germany sanctioning their own legal violence
Yep, like every other state, group, or tribe that every existed
>Poltical violence for poltical aims is not "crime prevention"
literally is
>its for maintaining and protecting power
again, like every other state that ever existed
>And in the soviet union, there was never at any point a decrease in crime
there was
>Just like how a King killing his noble he thinks is plotting against him has zero to do whether or not there are more rapists and theives in a city in his domain
wow

>>17916915
>santa fe
is that the one where they burned some inmate's head with a blowtorch until his brain boiled and caused his skull to explode?

>>17919436
>this is your argument
Actually embarrassing. This board is filled with unironic stupid people
Whats worse, the fact that you think you said anything or you actually think other people would not laugh?
No faggot, there is a difference between poltical regime maintaining its power against forces that attempt to replace its monopoly on poltical power and crime prevention between people under the poltical regime. By your stupid take invading a country and replacing its leaders is "crime prevention"
>there was
No there was not compared to any other modern state
>wow
I know right? You logic truly is fucking stupid and when applied to a different more easy to understand scenario is amazing how retarded it is

>>17918720
>determinism is true!!

huge atheist mistake

>>17919049
this has been tried ad nauseum and failed every time. violent stupid "people" with no impulse control and brains that can't connect cause with effect cannot be reformed like you or I could be.

>>17919481
>Actually embarrassing. This board is filled with unironic stupid people
Nup, your argument is just stupid.
>there is a difference between poltical regime maintaining its power against forces that attempt to replace its monopoly on poltical power and crime prevention between people under the poltical regime
I understand that it exists, there is just massive overlap with the two. but good luck trying to distinguish between a "political regime maintaining" its power, and "crime prevention between people". political regimes are made up of people, so trying to replace it with another can be construed as crime, and attempts to prevent it "crime prevention"

>By your stupid take invading a country and replacing its leaders is "crime prevention"
Yes, if for example a country is funding or exporting terrorism to your country, invading and replacing its leaders would help prevent it

>>17919573
Not him but you're an idiot, please stop talking. Very simple concepts are giving you great difficulty understanding and your scatter brain understanding of concepts has zero logical connections with eachother, literally everything you say opens up an infitinite amount of possibilities
>no that doesn't mean that, its means this because why not?
>uhhhh two different ideas that involves people? Well akshully they aren't different because everything is people
Stop retard. You obviously were caught with your retard take of "BUT NAZI" to argue state enforcement and prevention of crime and now are just using semantic bullshit to get out of your huge misunderstanding

>>17919641
cope

Progressivism is hilarious. Every single moral crusade they latch themselves onto, it's conveniently something that benefits capital and is indistinguishable from something a libertarian could get behind.

>>17919485
christcuck spotted

>>17919662
Huge YIKES

>>17919657
Doesn’t change the fact that prisons breed crime and make us less safe

>>17919685
Nup, good try tho

>>17919679
Free will doesn’t exist christcuck deal with it

>>17919690
literally dawkins tier response

>>17919685
I don't disagree but the answer to that isn't to do what every single capitalist wants, which is austerity politics.

>>17919701
He’s not wrong

>>17915649
I have a criminal record now and I fucking hate all those involved. I got community service because I had no previous criminal record but they said otherwise I would have gotten 2 months prison. Prison will probably be replaced by a Chinese style social credit system where every minute detail of life is controlled, and where crimes are punished by among other things not being able to pay with your card, for example you try to book a flight you can't pay for the ticket. You'll practically be in prison even though you're not because you can't do shit.

>>17915965
Kek

>>17915744
Fuck you.

>>17919685
>prisons breed crime
this, castrate violent criminals

>>17919954
>Chinese style social credit system
The west's system will probably be a joint venture between Visa and Facebook, no government involved (except of course through threats to break up monopolistic companies unless they target the right people).

>>17915982
official kickbacks from both the state, federal, and PRIVATE corporate backers, a literal captive population with little to no rights that can be milked for money, labor, body part donations, blood, testing of medical(Minnesota is FAMOUS for this)pharmaceuticals, and has a high retention percentage greater than corporate jobs in similar veins.
Also the federal/state minimum wage laws DO NOT APPLY, if you ever want to know what politicians are trying to do in your population/region, look at the actual conditions in your states prisons. Now look to see what policies they are pushing for in your backyard.

>>17920512
low IQ post

>>17920480
brainwashed retard

>>17917110
nope, it exists to PUNISH!! TO MAKE THE PUBLIC HAPPY WITH SAID PUNISHMENTS! never for reformation and uplifting of unfortunates, Christian values literally have no place there. Everyone and their priest says otherwise, until you look at what they ACTUALLY DO.
Also being a felon, having an arrest record, etc will BAN YOU FROM ALL BUT 10% of work available.
Does this seem conductive to improving society one convict at a time??

No one running for any political position in America will gain ground, or keep their place in office trying to do anything negative to the prison system. Heck, look at those "border prison's for children" that keep showing up on my/our news feeds.

>>17920540
Why?

>>17920579
all government is crony capitalism

>>17920550
There's no point trying to reform blacks, you improve society by removing them from it.

>NOOOOOOOO YOU CANT JUST LET PSYCHOPATH RAPIST TERRORISTS RUN RAMPANT!!!!!

we already do that, it's called the american armed forces

>>17920540
you mean the infamous "Credit Rating" that all American's have, that also determines if you get/keep most jobs in most situations? the medical record, that was supposed to be protected, that still gets used via every loophole that keeps getting added to?
the fact you need to "KNOW" someone to get a job, that colleges are essentially a big "KNOW" that can get you jobs ONLY in certain regions/businesses

>>17920585
Oh.

>>17920550
>border prison's for children
I almost took you seriously for a moment there, almost had me! No-one is at fault for these kids but their parents for trying to illegally enter the country, you seriously expect Americans to foot the bill for them when we can't even pay for ourselves?

>>17915649
Prisons were obsolete from day one - it is easier to cane petty criminals and execute serious ones. Of course given that Angela Davis wrote the OP book it is safe to assume that what she actually wants is for it to be impossible for black Americans to be subject to the "white" justice system.

>>17920610
nope, Minnesota is literally allowing convicted rapists to make house visits to homes. Alvin Scheele(not actual spelling) visited a home with children without their parents/sitters permission and after telling the children to start a fire that torched their home, was carted away by the police officers that refused to admit they did it for a cut of the insurance money. also some people were buying up large amounts of highly profitable properties and being that they were gay, the same officers got a unregistered because he was underage pedo (raped a 5yr while he was 15 at the time) now 17 to dress up as an older fag, perform sex with the idiot fag and run them out of town and make money doing it. DON'T MOVE WITHIN Minnesota's borders or it's surrounding surrogate states.

>>17916156
>defund the police
I once talked with my girlfriend's SJW friend about this during the height of the protests, I led off with something to the effect of "I think it's a loaded term, but obviously most people don't actually mean to just cut funding from all police and eliminate the job entirely."
Well, turns out she mean exactly that, and we ended up getting into a long argument in which she made it clear that she believed all cops to be inherently evil by the simple virtue that they pursued the job of policing, and that their role in society needs to be removed wholesale.

Regardless, I agree with the point of your post. But there's a real foundation for why people react in overly-simple ways to these overly-simplified terms.

>In thinking about the possible obsolescence of the prison, we should ask how it is that so many people could end up in prison without major debates regarding the efficacy of incarceration.
Complete obsolence? No that isn't possible unless we want to go back to a tribal punishment style system where we just kill many violent offenders.
Reduced sentences or alternative sentences for certain offenses is a more logical and non-ridiculous suggestion though. Especially when it comes to drug charges.

>>17915772
The George Floyd trial in a nutshell.

>>17920667
the fact you can apparently convince people that it's a good idea to get rid of the police is just evidence that you can convince people of literally anything in the most absolute sense. up can be down, left can be right, there is literally not a single limit to the possibilities of brainwashing

>all these Lawfags unironically simping for the police
Chaoschads where you at?

>>17921131
I've come to the conclusion that large multi-racial communities are unsustainable and the best model is an enclosed, small (1,000 at most, with 70% women and 30% men) homogenous communities where crimes publicly shamed and punished with either community service, execution or banishment.

>>17920923
>the fact you can apparently convince people that it's a good idea to get rid of the police is just evidence that you can convince people of literally anything in the most absolute sense
The 20th century is replete with evidence for this

>>17920667
>arguing with cattle

>>17919069
The moment you even use a political phrase like "prison abolition" or ACAB or whatever you have already destroyed the possibility of intelligent discussion.

>>17920540
Fun fact: Chinese "social credit" was inspired by Western credit cards and university admissions systems, and is basically just a holistic copy of what we already have here.

>>17921735
Yeah, you should focus on meaningful conversations rather than the kind of lazy sloganeering that invites those kind of responses.

>>17915649
No. We actually need more people in prison not less. Especially in the US.

>>17918394
congrats on 2, that's literally a nazi move, and all it would do is make that killer a more vindictive and cunning screwhead
also a good way for family shit to turn family ending, sterilization DOES NOT STOP RAPE, sure it prevents their penis' from being used, but now they use hot irons, razor blades, and other things to make everyone like themselves
3) how often have you seen the thousands to tens of thousands or more murder trials say so and so killed/murdered/butchered someone and after their death the state goes, oops wrong guy. sometimes 85% of the time in certain jurisdictions. Life in prison, with no parole while expensive, is actually very cheap compared to executions.

>>17915987
Instead of all that nonsense I'd just execute most adult criminals. Everything from petty theft to violent assault would carry the death penalty. If you're over 18 and can't meet these incredibly simple standards you don't deserve a place in a civilized society. Rehabilitation is largely a waste of time. Recidivism rates are always extremely high and convicted criminals basically never go on to be productive members of society.

A policy like that has tons of positive secondary effects as well.

>>17919035
>You know in history when punishments for crimes were like this crime rates were extremely high compared to today right?

You realize that there are countries on earth right now that do similar things and they have a minuscule crime rate in comparison to the US right? There are also many confounding factors in each case.

>>17919216
>has found that more severe punishments does not deter or lower crime

The vast majority of those studies only considered longer sentences as harsher punishment. Very few of them included brutal forms of violent punishment and I've never seen one that included capital punishment for lesser crimes.

>>17915649
test

Does society make the prisons, or do the prisons make the society? Isn't that what you are essentially asking?

A man who can not govern himself, will always be ungovernable by both the most liberal and the most harsh treatments. No matter how you try and control and condition him, and society as a whole, if you do not teach a man self control and personal responsibility, then nothing else will matter. The respect and personal responsibility of the individual to abide by the law is the only thing that makes the rule of law function.

Make the punishment worse, take away all punishment, it matters not at all where men cannot govern themselves.

>>17915649
>murderous nigger wants there to be no prisons

Astonishing.

>>17915649
This thread is proof that only Islam can both destroy and save the West.

>>17920543
Brainwashed by what or whom?

>>17921863
>congrats on 2, that's literally a nazi move, and all it would do is make that killer a more vindictive and cunning screwhead
>also a good way for family shit to turn family ending, sterilization DOES NOT STOP RAPE, sure it prevents their penis' from being used, but now they use hot irons, razor blades, and other things to make everyone like themselves
is this supposed to convince people NOT to execute these psychos?

>>17916156
>its the result of major political movements that actively desire third world status, people who desire a turn away from liberal principles
>rule of law, equality under the law, and democracy.
>liberal principles

>>17915649
I'm ready for the street judges timeline

>>17921492
The person who you're replying to never said this you schizo poltrash migrant faggot. He's correct, you retards are the death of any discussion see>>17919192

>>17921863
Calling something a Nazi move is a non-argument. The rocket technology that made the USA plant a flag on the moon was developed by the Nazis. Yet also, sterilization was used by many countries to stop people with mental issues from reproducing. This might hurt your feelings, but reproduction ought not to be a human right, as the rights of a child should always trump the rights of a parent.
Regarding the cost associated with the death penalty and wrongful conviction, that’s a modern US phenomenon. Most wrongful conviction cases in the US boil down to crackers and methheads of the jury got the wrong nigger. Sure, there are highly publicized exceptions, yet Mist issues would be solved by emulating the continental legal system where you have a judge decide on facts presented by a prosecutor and a defense attorney, as compared to the American system where you get a DA trying to get re-elected and convince twelve retards to kill the nigger who robbed the gas station two days prior to the murder occurring.

>>17921306
This Anon offers a far better solution than the one I’d originally proposed.

Victorian England already showed fairly convincingly that heavy policing and harsh punishments for crime more or less work. Baffling that this is still considered "a topic for debate" in the 21st Century.

>>17922325
>>17922477
>I want to live in a police state
Cucked, the lot of you. Those that would trade liberty for security deserve neither.

>>17918029
Just most crime

>>17922537
you'd probably have more "liberty" in Singapore than in the US right now. Corporal punishment is the ally of liberty.

>>17922537
kys weebtrash you'd be pissing yourself every night if it wasn't because the evil pig is patrolling your neighborhood watching so your mother and sister don't get raped by a shitskin like me.

>>17915649
Off topic but I had an addiction 10 years ago and got a probation violation.Ended up discovering I love reading in jail.I’ve been clean ever since so I’m grateful for jail because I discovered a passion and it straightened me out

>>17922615
I'd like to see you try, tough guy.

>>17915649
Over-incarceration is a problem but there will always be some individuals who are a danger to society. It is inconceivable that anything can be done with these violent or otherwise dangerous individuals besides forcefully restricting their capacity to do harm i.e, prison.

The choice is between different incarceration models, i.e most typically the punitive versus the rehabilitative. Both presume certain ethical and philosophical assumptions. What sort of crimes deserve punishment? The rapist and the white collar fraudster could both face 10 years for their crimes, but who among them deserves that punishment more? Intuitively it is the rapist. So there is real objective basis for the punitive model the more you look into it.

The same goes for the rehabilitative model. Are some individuals unreformable? Are their born criminals? What the respective recidivism rates in countries with either model? And what causes repeat offenses?

Other than for violent offenders there are other methods to penalize criminals rather than locking them in cages. Throughout the entirety of the history of civilization prisons were the nearly culturally universal common sense solution to that.

The reason for that is that the logic of prisons is not a social construct but a consequence and byproduct of the logic of behavior modification. To make someone stop doing things you don't want to do, limit their movement and limit what they can do. It's a brute force, overwhelmingly simple but effective method. And it's no wonder we haven't thought of a better system because the logic is embedded in the nature of behavioral motor functions.

>>17922668
>So there is real objective basi
There is NO objective basis I meant to say

>>17915649
Prisons were NEVER good, but we don't want your violent gang banger friends on the streets and aren't allowed to kill them anymore so this is the compromise.

>>17916156
>if the goal of the movement is the immediate release of all prisoners regardless of their offence.
Maybe stop making demands like that then.

Also, you don't want equality. Equality is white supremacist now, remember that. You want "equity", meaning equal outcomes, and you're only focused on making outcomes worse for whites, not making them better for POC. You have maybe five years before people start just killing you.

>>17922665
I won't try. I'll do it. Law enforcement don't exist for protected middle class kiddies. It exist to prevent your protected neighborhood from turning into a nigger infested shithole like Detroit.
But hey I'm in favor of dismantling dah polise if that means every city in the blue states becomes a ghetto.

>>17922818
Let me tell you something, boy. If there wasn't any police, vigilante mobs would become extremely common. If you tried anything funny, we would catch you and lynch you, no trial. We would be judge, jury and executioner.

>>17922842
> thinking there would be effective left wing vigilante mobs

If you got rid of the police right wing authoritarianism would quickly dominate this entire country.

>>17923049
Isn't that what you guys want? Shouldn't you be advocating for this then?

>>17923176
What makes you think I'm right wing?

>>17921904
>civilized society
>paternal state can execute practically anyone so dough faced wage blobs like this anon can feel safe and righteous going to their mcjob then coming here to cry about said paternalist state
These are the literal retards talking about dysgenics. Not an iota of self awareness.

>>17923225
Shocking that another leftist is lashing out with completely unsubstantiated assumptions. Try to control your emotions pussy.

>>17917959
no one cares