/lit/ - Literature

>>17913930
Don't most neuroscientists think this is an interesting but incorrect idea? Modern neuroscience research has obviated the entire field of philosophy of the mind. Its the only way to get real answers. Continued philosophizing about it, which Jaynes basically does in the paper considering the lack of hard neuroscience when it was published, is egotistic navel-gazing.
Also has anybody read the Rage of Achilles? Retelling of the Iliad that assumes bicamerality is true and incorporates everybody basically being half-schizo into the plot. Supposed to be pretty fun.

>>17914002
>Don't most neuroscientists think this is an interesting but incorrect idea?
Plenty of academics from all "mind fields" think the idea is ridiculous, but the book is enlightening. Including even Dennett. I'm tempted to read it to see what they mean. Summarized, the whole thing sounds absolutely batshit.

THERE IS A SCOTCH MAN

BENIS

WAS HE IN THE S.B.S.???

>>17913930
isn't this the west world book?

RAMACHANDRAN

MAY HAVE BEEN LAHORE

give me a qrd

>>17914337
consciousness is a recently learned behavior breaking down a naturally divided schizo mind that hallucinates orders to itself. before consciousness our brain was a mechanism that had two distinct sectors that generated plans for motion and commands that the other sector obeyed

SIX MILLION CONSCIOUSNESSES

CREATIONISM A FUCK

RECENTNESS BIAS

FIVE SECONDS

>>17914583
>consciousness is a recently learned behavior
Prove it.

>>17914002
>Modern neuroscience research has obviated the entire field of philosophy of the mind. Its the only way to get real answers.
https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005268

>>17913930
>>17914002
Sound really interesting. Recommend me other mindfuck books about consciousness.

>>17915279
he asked for a qrd dipshit, go read the book and judge for yourself

>>17915304
bright air brilliant fire

>>17913930
A much better theory is that the understimulated human mind naturally gravitates toward imagined and hallucinated social experiences and stories. This explains the rise and fall of religion.

>>17913930

>>17914583
Yeah, you don't have to be a neuroscientist to know that sounds pretty retarded.

>>17914002
>obviated the entire field of philosophy of the mind
Yeah. Totally! Generating a list of the positions/momenta/charge/&c of every physical particle in one's nervous system is a sure way to get a grip on consciousness!

Do neuro researchers even have a symbolic model of what consciousness is? Is it even possible to relate the symbols which represent tangible/measurable states to conscience experience?

Dennett can stay out of this one. He's convinced me that the "philosophical zombies" common to so many thought experiments actually exist by demonstrating that he is one of them.

>>17915563
That is not a "much better theory" you fucking bug

>>17915563
>understimulated mind
>ancient man
Something tells me that most people in high tech civilizations are the understimulated ones. Home cube to office/wagie cube to home cube again. Eat easily acquired food, spend some time on repetitive chores/hobbies and/or waste some time in alpha-wave zombie-state via propagandaflix, sleep, rinse, repeat.

>>17915812
woah....

>>17914583
>>17914337
Which is why the illiad and the Old Testament is written differently then the New Testament and the odyssey

>>17914002
Whatever gave you the idea that modern neuroscience has any explanation for consciousness?

>>17915279
A third or more of the book analyzes the oldest texts, hieroglyphs, tombs, and ruin arrangements available to us in order to make the argument.

>>17915971
Can you elaborate on this

>>17916168
Ancient generations had no concept for "thought," and believed that any thoughts they had were actual gods directly telling them to do things.

At least that's as far as I understand it. I'm pretty sure its a theory that's been disproven along with Sapir Whorf

>>17916168
The Iliad is a major example Jaynes gives, he claims that the characters display no real introspection or cogitation about what to do under uncertainty, rather, whenever they are faced with a dilemma (e.g. Achilles about how to confront Agamemnon, Hector about whether to go out of the city and fight or not) a god appears and commands them in some way. His thesis is that gods were not metaphorical but rather visual and auditory hallucinations from the right brain telling the left brain what to do. He claims people at this time were not conscious, but rather obeyed hallucinations to produce extended behavior or novel responses.

a voice told me to bump this

>>17915279
What's Platonism?

its just speculation, no empirical evidence, some of the claims are outlandish, some of them are straight up stupid. it contributes nothing real to the understanding of the mind. may as well read your horoscope

>>17915971
and Fight Club is written differently from the New Testament. It must mean our brains have have further evolved!!!!!

>>17913930
Read this master piece twice already

>>17915763
Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have a pretty good grip on what consciousness might be physically

>>17915812
Understimulated? A smartphone can induce so much decision making stress in you that it renders you incapable to do anything else in your life. People are exposed to so much information everyday nobody else was exposed to in human history in these amounts

>>17918938
Is putting people into a trance considered stimulation though?

>>17918948
Trance itself would be the opposite of stimulation.
Netflix and TV have almost no decision making stress (for me it has some at least, because there is so much garbage so that I rarely decide to actually watch something). Maybe apps like Tiktok turn you into a trance state because there is the auto-watch function, as compared to YouTube where you also have to choose what to watch.

The model of reality we see is a literal simulation which took billions of years to be perfected by evolution. It's a transparent model that is why we don't doubt what we are seeing. Anyone who disagrees with the popular version of simulation is considered diseased. But we know from experiments(white "color" is the muddiest color yet our brains views it as the most neat color) that consciousness programs our brain with literal shit information which helps us to perform everyday function but on the down sides we develop delusions like fear of death, overrating ourselves etc.
There is literally zero empirical evidence for an eternal consciousness. Because the notion of self is dumb made bullshite.

Jaynes mentioned that bicameral people seemingly have infinite volition, that they can work all day without getting tired. I guess back in the days they received their orders either from the “Gods” or some other leaders.

He also talked about how all of their attention is “outside” and not inside, as they experience their hallucinations like something real and not imagined like we do.

I believe this brain function which makes you tireless is still there and accessible to us, with the attention being completely outside of oneself, though without the hallucinations. In that mode there is no inner dialogue or interospection whatsoever, and people find you charismatic without you doing anything. The only thing “felt” is the eye and the surroundings, nothing else. It’s also incredibly easy to say what you think/believe. The ability to understand and respond to social cues like body language, understanding what’s said etc. is also increased. Also, full volition about ones actions is also unlocked.

I feel like this mode of being is what should be called to be fully conscious. I think this is also the “mystery” of the all seeing eye. Most of these are drawn with widened pupils, and that was also my experience.

>>17913930
This book is interesting but stupid. If you have the most basic knowledge of ancient history his whole theory is laughable

>>17914002
>Don't most neuroscientists think this is an interesting but incorrect idea?

>>17915763
>people who study the brain even look at the brain???
Yes. Go read a book.

>>17918117
Not only is there no empirical evidence to support it but there's plenty of empirical evidence against it. It pre-supposes that a certain Descartean Liberal model of the mind (that is not supported by simple empirical observation of reality) is the baseline for all of humanity. This is absolutely laughable (Especially because we do actually find plenty of information about an "inner-life" in ancient literature).

This is to say nothing of the fact that his entire model of how this bicameral mind would even work just doesn't work. We know what people without a corpus collossum are like, they're literally retarded. None of the descriptions of normies in the ancient world match up with literal drooling retards who are incapable of walking, with the lucky few being retarded giga-extroverts with no filter who memorize random trivia.

I haven't read it but as far as a hypothesis goes it seems interesting, but I place it in a different time period. Maybe 50k years ago or however far back in time when consciousness as a phenomenon began budding, it could have happened like this. Unfortunately we may never actually know.

>>17915812
One hour of Netflix is the stimulation version of ten hours of earlier-history plays. They are complete overstimulation. Modern humans spend hours a day watching over stimulating stories. In the absence of this they would search out for stories, deeper and meaningful stories, and they would require someone to talk to (God)

ALREADY SHIT

TOMMY WHISKEY