/lit/ - Literature

>>17902136
Because interest in Buddhism in the west came out of the 60's era of free love left leaning political thought and liberation.
It was seen as foreign, free and "liberating" and most importantly not related to Christianity or any other western construction.

So like with every other foreign trend people attach a bunch of misconceptions and out right made up bullshit to it without ever diving into it because real appreciation and interest wasn't the point
The point was rebellion against and the rejection of the main stream beliefs of society by adopting the most basic form of some foreign religion while using it as an excuse to drug out

>>17902180
Ignore this
>>17902136
Westerners, especially Americans, are incredibly stupid.
Read the Heart Sutra. It's 2 pages and is one of the most succinct yet enlightening sutras.

>>17902191
nice argument.
I am not saying that is a good or bad thing, just the reality of its origins.

>>17902180
fpbp

>>17902191
Great read thanks

>>17902136
>Sadly I can't name off the top of my head any Buddhist literature

You can't name "the tripitaka"?

https://bdkamerica.org/tripitaka-list/

Read the Digha Nikaya and the Majjhima Nikaya, the Long and Middle Length Discourses respectively. This should be standard knowledge of Buddhism as it is without any religious or cultural tack-on. You might also want a secondary text with you. My personal favourite is Evola's. Some translations of the first texts I mentioned come with decent commentaries. I thought Maurice Walshe did a good job with the translations I have (he also makes sure to provide the relevant clarifications on the original Pali word usage where necessary and its Sanskrit equivalents).

As for your explicit question, most people do not care enough about Buddhism to do any research, because it's not quite as simple as, "read the Bible/Quran, bro", that Christians and Muslims can simply say. Buddhism is a weird mix of practice and theory, so even if one were to sit down and read the original texts, it often causes even more confusion than when people read the Bible for the first time. This can also partly be because Buddhist canon is divided into teachings for laypeople, and teachings for "Ariyans", "stream-enterers" and other aspirants. So if you jump in at the wrong point, you might be dipping in to a teaching only meant for those who have already attained (through practice) a great deal of insight.

>>17902136
Beacuse reading is hard and comprehending is harder. So people make up whatever they want.

>>17902237
Thanks for the break down. I think the language barrier and lack of scholarship contributes

>>17902237
>Evola

>>17902191
>he says ignore this
>proceeds to basically say the same thing.

>>17902319
I've seen a lot of people trash talk him, but no one has ever given me a reason to think he is wrong about the major points he wrote about (most people I've spoken to just say "he interpreted it wrong" without sufficiently explaining how or why - these people also tend to not have even read the original texts themselves). I've read those two translated Nikayas along with a few other original texts like the Dhammapada and there is little contradiction of Evola's analysis throughout them. His connection between the possibilities of Buddhism and modern life were not only accurate but probably the best still around (yes, even compared to the countless popularizers who preach mindfulness and other basic concepts of mental health). He also has a vast repository of knowledge of other esoteric schools, which gives one a very interesting perspective of the parallels between them and early Buddhism.

the dreaded western buddhists who just meditate are infinitely closer to getting it than doctrinal spergs

>>17902191
Why ignore him lol
The arrogance

>>17902237
>This can also partly be because Buddhist canon is divided into teachings for laypeople, and teachings for "Ariyans", "stream-enterers" and other aspirants.
The same is true for Hinduism too, and it's also why lower caste people are restricted from reading the Vedas and should only study the Bhagavad Gita and Iithasa instead. This also explains why there are contradictions in the Vedas and Upanishads saying you should worship the gods, one saying you shouldn't worship them, and another saying they aren't real.

Capitalism. It wants to mechanize the whole of society, so that there are just obedient workers who do all the work. This is achieved by trying to get rid of ‘destructive’ emotions like anger. This makes Buddhism the perfect religion under capitalism, as it celebrates apathy as the highest virtue

>>17902663
Good point

>>17902663
idk man, the focus on desire being the root of suffering runs completely counter to consumerism, the engine of capitalism. of course, being a timeless worldview, it works and benefits people in whatever situation, be you medieval chink peasant or amerimutt desknigger

>>17902136
California Dharma is a therapeutic tool cleaved from the body it originated from, it barely has any pretenses of being a religion.

>>17902720
Based

>>17902498
>him
the arrogance

>>17902180
>It was seen as foreign, free and "liberating" and most importantly not related to Christianity or any other western construction.

You forgot two other factors : it was seen as scientific (psychological), and pseudo-atheistic insofar that it had no clear central deity like abrahamic religions do. To get a good feel for the zeitgeist of what I'm thinking about people would do well to read that part in Childhood's End when the arrival of the aliens eliminates every form of religion from the face of the earth because it is shown that they were falsified by the aliens - except buddhism, which survives, as Clarke considers it more of a psychological framework rather than a religion proper.

I suppose he didn't read the parts in the Pali Canon where the buddha telepathically projects the vision of his retracted cock into his friend's mind so as to show him that he possesses all the marks of an enlightened being.

>>17902663
RRRRR Capitalism, rrrrr.. I'm REALLY angry with capitalism

>>17902663
>ITZ DA KAPEETALIZM
Take your meds.

>>17902743
>telepathically projects the vision of his retracted cock into his friend's mind

Lol

>>17902773
>Then the Buddha came out of his dwelling and proceeded to begin walking meditation, and Ambaṭṭha did likewise. Then while walking beside the Buddha, Ambaṭṭha scrutinized his body for the thirty-two marks of a great man. He saw all of them except for two, which he had doubts about: whether the private parts are retracted, and the largeness of the tongue. Then it occurred to the Buddha, “This brahmin student Ambaṭṭha sees all the marks except for two, which he has doubts about: whether the private parts are retracted, and the largeness of the tongue.” Then the Buddha used his psychic power to will that Ambaṭṭha would see his retracted private parts. And he stuck out his tongue and stroked back and forth on his ear holes and nostrils, and covered his entire forehead with his tongue. Then Ambaṭṭha thought, “The ascetic Gotama possesses the thirty-two marks completely, lacking none.” He said to the Buddha, “Well, now, sir, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.”

https://suttacentral.net/dn3/en/sujato

>>17902752
>0.000003 dollars was donated to your TPUSA account, redeemable at selected stores run by Koch Industries

>>17902792
More evidence that you Marxist retards are just as dumb as /pol/acks.

>>17902136
Spiritual tools without possibility of science debunking any myths, so they don't look like simpletons for being unscientific.

>>17902845
Imagine simping for billionaires who will never love you back

>>17902361
Most people of repute don’t feel a strong need to rebut a system that wikipedia describes as
>anti-egalitarian, anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and anti-popular systems

Like, it’s not like governments historically didn’t try that a bunch, and most people agree getting away from King George, Kim Jong Un, tinpot dictators in south America and southeast Asia, Hitler, the Italian Fascists, Feudalism, and military Juntas in general was a very good move for the absolute majority of people.

Be honest with me: if you could play a game where you’re given a random country token you’re forced to live in the rest of your life, and you get a modern first world democracy, and another player can force you to trade for their random token, are you NOT fucking sweating if they say

>we’re gonna swap because my token country is anti-egalitarian, anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and anti-popular systems and yours is not?

There’s a normal person answer and a wrong answer that only 15 year olds and brainwork patients give - choose wisely.

>>17903089
What the fuck are you talking about you fucking retard schizo? What does this have to do with buddhism? Wrong chat??

>>17903089
>wikipedia

>>17903089
I'm not asking you to rebut a system, I'm asking you to rebut his analysis of Buddhism in the Doctrine of Awakening.

>>17902136
>Why is the Buddha so popular in the West but Buddhist scriptures almost unknown here?
Shit book titles. Christians have the Bible muds have quran ching kongs have Confucius jews have the talmud. One major title per religion is what most people can remember

>>17902663
>This makes Buddhism the perfect religion under capitalism

Except that Buddhism is inherently against pursuit of desires that lead to cyclical suffering, the antithesis of what capitalism fulfills.

>>17902136
Lotus Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Pali Canon, Nenbutsu.

>>17902191
ignore this

Buddhism is popular in the west BECAUSE people haven't read the scriptures

>>17902136

Here you go OP:
https://suttacentral.net/
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html
https://84000.co/

If you want actual books then Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya, Samyutta Nikaya, Anguttara Nikaya, and the Sutta Nipata are the best you will find in English. The Pali Text Society versions are, frankly, dated, often inaccurate, and were done by scholars who, while very well meaning and rigorous, were not practicing Buddhists with any connection to any extant lineage. Bhikkhu Bodhi makes extensive use of footnotes from his own research and from the existing commentaries. If you really want to go in deep his "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" is a wonderful overview of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (a collection of texts that is... difficult without guidance).

I also recommend the following:
"The Diamond that Cuts Through Illusion" by Thich Nhat Hanh (translation and commentary on The Diamond Sutra)
"Handful of Leaves" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (alternative translation of selections from the Sutta Pitaka, with original commentary)
"Visuddhimagga" by Buddhaghosa, trans. by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (I have mixed feelings about this, but it's very influential)
"Verses from the Center" by Nagarjuna, trans. by Stephen Batchelor (translation of Mulamadhyamakakarika with original commentary)
"The Lotus Sutra" trans. by Burton Watson
"Manual of Insight" by Mahasi Sayadaw (not an ancient text, but very very influential in the West)

May all beings be free from suffering.

>>17904608
I more or less ignored Buddhism my whole life until I chanced upon the Pali Canon.

Because Western Buddhists are teh ghey and do a horrible job promoting the religion.

>>17902663
Brainlet take, might as well blame the JOOOOS too. Basic Buddhism teaches overcoming desires which Capitalism wishes to increase.

>>17902136
Read The Life of Milarepa

>>17904608
B8 but in any case Buddhism appears to at least provide a more comprehensive explanation for why things are the way the are than religions that are more theistic.

>>17902136
western buddhists dont read the sutras, even the eastern buddhists dont read them lol

>>17902191
>>Read the Heart Sutra. It's 2 pages and is one of the most succinct yet enlightening sutras.
too bad the truth can't be seen with hindusim

brahmins hate it this

Meditation can be a useful practice. Scripture is superstitious nonsense.

>>17902361
You can't be a traditionalist obsessed with esoterism and understand buddhism.

>>17904608
>letchery by both sexes isn't equally disesteemed

>>17902663
This anon has a point not sure why everyone is sperging out so hard. The western "Buddhism" discards all that desire bs and just takes the meditation and passive mindfulness.

>>17905730
They're pointing out that Westerners don't practice real Buddhism since they don't get rid of desire or their attachments to this world, they just meditate for the completely materialistic reason that is the "health benefits". They still consoom like they are expected to in a capitalist society.
Here's a book recc relevant to the thread.

>>17903654
>>17903654
>I'm not asking you to rebut a system, I'm asking you to rebut his analysis of Buddhism in the Doctrine of Awakening.
it's not bad but he talks too much about mahayana, and he talks about kasina which is from the abidharma.

it's good considering the date of its publication, but i think there are equally good recent books .

>>17902136
I'm reading the Diamond Sutra. Also I know zero Buddhists in the west and there are almost no placed to practice here, do not sure about the just meditation crowd it seems Buddhism doesn't exist culturally at all. I live in Ontario

>>17902786
Buddha had down syndrome lmao

>>17902136
blame watts and the beats, that's what I do

>>17902136
Blame Goethe and Schopenhauer.

>>17905974
Where can I find non-boomer/hippie Buddhism?

>>17906000
They both respected authentic buddhism.

Secular buddhism is just mindfulness

>>17905974
when ever watts talks about it, he gives loads of reccomendations to quality literature, sources from things he quotes or gernal information on the subjects.

>>17906013
read actual buddhist texts. Some transcendentalists also, but afaik they mostly touched on ‘hindooism’ and even that barely.

>>17903089
>wikipedia

>>17902136
It looks cool, especially when gold plated. Recognizable image by silhouette, a little spirituality, but there is no danger that someone will be offended.
Buddhist scripture is extremely vast, diverse, contradictory, in places dark for understanding, contains hundreds of repetitions. There is no single text, rather a "space" of interconnected texts without a definite beginning and end.
So comprehension of Buddhist texts becomes an intellectual problem, requiring many months or years of study for at least a superficial understanding.

>>17902361
I read his "The Doctrine of Awakening". Waste of time. For me, since I know the material quite well.
Yes, he basically correctly expounds the Buddhist doctrines that he likes, conventionally 80-90%. But actually, first of all, you can read the sutras themselves. Secondly, there are books by Buddhist teachers for a European audience, such as "What the Buddha taught", "In the words of the Buddha" (I don’t remember exactly), etc.All the same, it is better to study Buddhism from its followers, and not from a free esotericist.
Thirdly, Julius, an unconditionally intelligent person, is still not a Buddhist scholar, he did not know languages. I read something in Italian translations, something seems to be in German. So you can turn directly to scientific works about Buddhism, there at least people who taught Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, Tibetan, etc. for years.

And if Julius did not like something, such as "rebirth", he declares it "late layering", "distortion of the original doctrine," "the influence of plebeian consciousness." Why? Because he, the great aristocrat of the spirit, decided so. There are also many paragraphs of his nonsense about the "warrior's path", "spiritual personality types", which are predetermined before birth, although he does not believe in anything before and after life, "moon spirits". I don’t know, maybe for primordial traditionalists all this has some meaning, but for the study of Buddhism it doesn’t make sense.
In short, he was too full of his own ideas to write properly about Buddhism.

>>17902327
>>17902498
>>17904572

Samefag.

What he said was complete bullshit and pegs the fact Americans can't understand Buddhism in some McCarthyist scaremongering about the left and drugs and not the fact that Americans are dull, sheepish, egocentric swine who are physically unable to understand philosophy or culture.

>t. mexican

>>17904608
Be Here Now is a blast. No need to over think it, it's just a bit of fun.

What does /lit/ think about Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra? I rarely see it mentioned here?

>>17906013
See
>>17904643

>>17906884
I've never read it, but Rob Burbea cites it many times in "Seeing That Frees". I highly recommend his book if you've been practicing for a few months. His talks on Dharma Seed are 10/10.

>>17904608
Yeah, basically this.

>>17902136
Buddha was an Indo-European teacher so naturally decesndants of the Indo-European bloodline will find a connection.

>>17905441
yeah you can

>>17907556
funny as most of the actual lineages are being carried by sino-tibetan descendants

>>17902136
They fear the Buddhist truth. Literally.

>>17902237
>Buddhism is a weird mix of practice and theory

What do you mean? Every religion is a mix of theory and practice and have mystical experience in its forefront. The lack of this most important aspect will lead to the degeneration of a religious tradition as it becomes more dependent of empty symbols and authority and lose its relevance to new believers who sees exactly this emptiness and arbitrariness.

>>17902136
‘The mask and Face of contemporary Spirituality’ answers this exact question.

just spin the wheel and it's just as good as reading the sutra

>>17907819
this. because we'd have to change our ways. Western society is good at producing suffering, and calling it "pleasure" or "happiness", but it never reaches the goalpost, so we suffer more. The Four Noble Truths would bring down western society, not through violence and degeneracy, but through peace and understanding. That doesn't work in e.g. America.

>>17908614
Can't wait for the reprint next month.

bunpm

>>17906884
>Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra
>>17907228
>Rob Burbea

Yeah it's pushed by mahayanists, not really buddhist

>>17910650
>mahayanists, not really buddhist
Interesting, real buddhism being Theravāda?

>>17910958
>>17910650
Theravada buddhists are atheist tier, plus their monks rape people all the time, and they commit genocide and shit

>>17910981
A lot of people saying what _isn't_ real buddhism, not many people suggesting what is.

>>17902136
most of the time it is larping by westerners

>>17902136
You know buddhism becoming popular on the western world is a russian psy-op, right? And the only reason it got any recognition were because of 60-70's boomers sticking it up to their parents and being abused as useful idiots to achieve the level of social desestabilization and demoralization we are today, right?

i see more fat and skinny buddhas in front yards here than i've ever seen christian crosses in windows

>>17910990
real buddhism is when you talk all the time about how nobody is a real buddhist

>>17911057
similar to how on /out/ the most /out/ thing you can do is accuse others of not being /out/?

>>17907973
>Every religion is a mix of theory and practice and have mystical experience in its forefront
This is just plainly incorrect, that's what I mean. Going to church on Sunday or being baptized, for example, is not "religious practice." That is the extent of modern Christianity and other popular mass-religions, even Buddhism itself in its popular forms. At best, you could say that Christianity has prayer, but this is so ambiguous and non-doctrinal that it holds little "religious", as opposed to "sentimental", value in most cases.
>>17906597
>And if Julius did not like something, such as "rebirth", he declares it "late layering", "distortion of the original doctrine," "the influence of plebeian consciousness." Why? Because he, the great aristocrat of the spirit, decided so.
You either didn't read him, or you didn't understand him. He didn't claim Buddhism was "wrong" about rebirth, he merely clarified the fact that there is no "essence" or "soul" behind samsaric existences (which is the authentic Buddhist teaching, you can speak to monks about this topic and they will tell you the same), and in this sense there is nothing to be reborn (Evola clarifies that when the samsaric individual dies, whatever was conceived as its individuality totally dissipates). Evola merely clarified the idea by stating that, instead of possessing an "immortal soul", samsaric beings are just conglomerations of subpersonal forces which form composites, which itself is merely an analogical view of Buddhism from the perspective of the pre-Christian/Platonic West's view of "the soul", which Buddhism rightly denies to the majority of people, just as the West did. And because you seem to lack a subtle understanding of Buddhism (despite claiming to be familiar), I will mention to you that Buddhists (and Evola) accept the idea of the continuity of consciousness; but this does not contradict the rejection of a samsaric soul or "supersoul." If this does not make sense to you, you have more investigation to do (and no, not of Evola - whom you can leave behind in his entirety if you're so opposed to him and his background).
> There are also many paragraphs of his nonsense about the "warrior's path", "spiritual personality types", which are predetermined before birth, although he does not believe in anything before and after life, "moon spirits". I don’t know, maybe for primordial traditionalists all this has some meaning, but for the study of Buddhism it doesn’t make sense.
This is mostly made up nonsense or rests upon the misconceptions I just explained. I presume you're not engaging in good faith here.

>>17911097
I understand why you would not consider baptism or Eucharist as practice as they became devoid of meaning, but they absolutely are. What I pointed out was exactly that, early Christianity was about that experience, not so much now. On that note I think what distinguish Buddhism and maybe others eastern religions from Christianity is exactly the preservation of its esoteric tradition and knowledge ever since Buddha.

>>17911097
Nowadays, a huge number of Buddhist texts and books written by professional scholars are available in European languages.
Instead, we are offered cool story like this: (see below)

>>17911591
Evola - The Doctrine of Awakening - Chapter 7. Determination of the Vocations
>A short time ago we referred to a "quite special race of spirit." We must explain this point and, together with it, the specific place of the Ariya. The touchstone, as we have said, is the vision of universal impermanence, of dukkha and anattā. Now, it is not said that the realization that something is impermanent is eo ipso a motive for detachment from and renunciation of it. This depends, rather, on what we have elsewhere called the "race of the spirit," which is at least as important as that of the body.11 Here are some examples. A "telluric" spirit may consider as quite natural a dark self-identification with becoming and with its elementary forces, to such an extent that it does not even become aware of its tragic aspect—as sometimes occurs among the Negroes, savage peoples, and even among certain Slavs. A "Dionysian" spirit may consider universal impermanence of little account, opposing to it carpe diem, the joy of the moment, the rapture of a corruptible being who enjoys from instant to instant corruptible things, a joy so much the more acute in that—as the well-known song of the Renaissance has it—"di doman non v'ecertezza. "A "lunar" spirit, religiously inclined, may in its turn see in the contingency of life an atonement or a test, in face of which it should behave with humility and resignation, having faith in the impenetrable divine will and maintaining the feeling of being a "creature" created by it out of nothing. By others still this death of ours is considered as a completely natural and final phenomenon, the thought of which should not for a moment disturb a life turned toward earthly aspirations. Finally, a "Faustian," "titanic," or Nietzschean spirit may profess "tragic heroism," may desire becoming, and may even desire the "eternal return." And so on. From these examples, it is easily seen that "knowledge" produces "detachment" only in the case of a particular race of spirit, of that which in a special sense we have called "heroic" and which is not unconnected with the theory of the bodhisatta. Only in those in whom this race survives and who wish it, can the spectacle of universal contingency be the principle of awakening, can it determine the choice of the vocations, can it arouse the reaction that follows from "No, I want no more of it," from "This does not belong to me, I am not this, this is not my self' extended to all states of saṁsāric existence. The work, then, has one single justification: it must be done, that is to say, for the noble and heroic spirit there is no other alternative. Katam karaṇīyam—"that which has to be done has been done"—this is the universally recurring formula that refers to the Ariya who have destroyed the āsava and achieved awakening.

>>17911443
Even Buddhism has declined a lot unfortunately. The major positive aspect about it is its no-bullshit approach to practice and theory which can be discovered without becoming physically involved in any religious structure. Almost nothing is concealed in the way that esoteric doctrines typically conceal themselves, and it's far more "scientific" than almost any other doctrine (the Zen school is an especially good example of this).

>>17911602
This is probably very interesting to various esotericists, but why they need to learn about Buddhism, when there are many other options, is not clear.

>>17902743
but this is mostly shit they invented. it's not true. and only appears so through being very selective and misleading.

>>17911603
>and it's far more "scientific" than almost any other doctrine (the Zen school is an especially good example of this).
not really, zen is one of the most closed sects and only acknowledges direct transmission in most of the cases

>>17902743
>telepathically projects the vision of his retracted cock into his friend's mind so as to show him that he possesses all the marks of an enlightened being.
Cool robes, singing bowls, mala, AND telephatic cock powers? And people have to ask why its popular?!