/lit/ - Literature

>>17881080
>make up a strawman to be mad about on the internet
>how can any real person believe these real ideas that were written by this person whos work i have surely read? incredible

fuck off go circlejerk somewhere else

>>17881127
Anon its not a strawman
Its pretty easy to pull apart Marx's base arguments unto themsevles
Its just that when you do you get the copes of
>"Well... he didnt REALLLY believe "x"
After which you get pointed to some of the most obscure and assignine writings of Marx in which he outright CONTRADICTS what he writes in other sections
At which poin the advocates of Marx will be outright reduced to simpering and pathetic refusal to understand the concept of causality and weird autistic delusions of dunning kruger.
This is not an ideology or readings for smart people
And every time i've discussed the subject (after reading on it) with someone who likewise has read it and believes in it
I have found this reality reafirmed.

>>17881127
OP is right.

>>17881080
these are accurate criticisms of his philosophy. marxism is simply not intellectually respectable.

this is just all historicism
>i have this cool theory about how human history works!
>wow that sounds really cool, but can you prove it?
>uhhhhhhhhhhhh

>>17881172
kek'd and saved

>>17881080
>definiton of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result
>communism has been tried a dozen times and always failed nearly the same way
>they keep inisting that this time it will work
>communists are insane

>>17881080
>engaging logically with Marx
Filtered. Marx is purposefully illogical because he's a Jewish schizo

>>17881172
what do you think the 'socially' in 'socially necessary' means?
the social necessity is determined by the people who need what is being produced
it's value is determined by labour
you dumb bitch

>>17881164
OP is literally a straw man yes.
Why don't people like you post quotes or specific passages you don't like and discussion can be had then, it's always these reduced pseudo arguments that you guys make, it's pathetic.

>>17881940
>>17881924
>t.

>>17881924
If I'd find a diamond on the floor with zero effort then according to the labour theory of value it's worth nothing, while if I'd put in all efforts to build a giant pile of reeking shit for 3 days I should be payed handsomely.

Marxists are cringe. Just look at BreadTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFvBCvCl4sk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Go7Ek0ZN5Q

>>17882026
if you don't understand what we're talking then there is no need for you to get involved

>>17881172
value is not subjective. it is determined by society and thus happens outside any individual subject.

>>17881940
this
sage

>>17882071
You said:
>it's value is determined by labour
which is false.
A band fat rich guys next to a source of water wouldn't give you a penny for a glass of water, while the village of poor peasants dying of thirst in the desert would give you anything for water. They both don't give a flying fuck how much labour you put into the product.

>>17882121
why would they give you anything?

>>17882085
Society is an amalgomation of millions of people with different needs, socials standings and tastes. One person will be a vegetarian and value meat lower as the next onions product.

>>17882150
what a useless statement. matter is an amalgamation of particles but it doesn’t help to describe the wave formations that occur in those terms

>>17882131
Because they got a load of things I want like grain while they don't have any water to quench their thirst while I don't have any grain to eat while having loads of water. That's why we could build up a trade relation as I would give the desert peasants the water they need while they give me their huge amouts of grain in return.

>>17882085
and how does "society" go about determining the value of anything?

>>17881172
lol
>>17881940
Alright anon
You want a specific Quote?
>"The history of all hitherto existing society(2) is the history of class struggles."
Now this is an objective claim correct?
A statement upon the nature of society and civilization??
One which, if we take the author seriously, is regarded as an ABSOLUTE claim in which a single phenimonon may catagorize the WHOLE of human existence or at the least the whole of human civilization (roughly 500 years or so)
As i dont want to be accused of "strawmanning" I will wait for your concent to this cataogrization before arguing against it.

>>17882085
collectively by individuals =/= outside of individuals

>>17882026
Wrong.

"The simplest definition of socially necessary labour time is the amount of labour time performed by a worker of average skill and productivity, working with tools of the average productive potential, to produce a given commodity. This is an "average unit labour-cost", measured in working hours.

If the average productivity is that of a worker who produces a commodity in one hour, while a less skilled worker produces the same commodity in four hours, then in these four hours the less skilled worker will have only contributed one hour's worth of value in terms of socially necessary labour time. Each hour worked by the unskilled worker will only produce a quarter of the social value produced by the average worker."

how exactly did he think a specific value could be ascribed to a unit of labour? how do you account for the fact that an hour of labour looks very different for a hard labourer than it does for some pencil pusher putting data into spreadsheets or some such thing. how does it account for the fact that even within the context of a single line of work, different workers will vary in how they carry out their duty?

>>17881080
Only idiots take him seriously. Luckily, they're easily identified so you can ignore them. Modern day marxists/communists are also relatively harmless outside of being tools of the establishment.

>>17881080
class struggle, not class, retard.

>>17881080
It's clear you haven't read him or you are too retarded to understand him.

>>17882035
The best part of BreadTube is that they all had to stop doing debates because they kept getting publicly annihilated. If you're regularly getting dunked on by Twitch/Youtube pseuds that admittedly have done little more than read a couple Wikipedia pages maybe you need to rethink your ideology.

> labour is defined by labour hours used to produce it!!
>oh, no one is buying my product for the high price ive set based on the time it took me to produce it
>better lower the price so that someone will buy it

supply and demand will always determine the real value of a product, its like a law of physics more than it is a social construct

>>17882026
There is no way anybody could post this unless they are a false flagging commie. I cannot accept that someone here would make such a blatant prageru argument when it is so fucking easy to develop a good criticism of Marx's LTV.

>>17884029
Its because supply and demand is what literally produces value, commies dont seem to understand this, something has value because it is needed or desired, not because someone put effort into it, and the value established by demand is further amplified by how rare it is and how costly it is to produce

>>17884088
the Marxist take on LTV as far as I can make out by squinting at the opening chapters of Capital is describing more a tendency for price to be determined by the 'average necessary labor' which is itself a highly artificial and context-dependent construct.

>>17884122
yea, i dont think anyone argues that labour is not a critical factor in value, but the idea that labour is the singular determination is just silly. a degree of value is inherently established by demand, then it is augmented by cost of production, which includes labour, scarcity etc.

labour is just one little piece of the puzzle in determining value

>>17883918

>The Proletariat are inevitably going to rebel against their capitalist overlords
Lmao this is the only that always gets me
"communism will win"
"communism is inevitable"
They have been saying this shit for over a century now and communism is 0.0% more popular.

>>17883918
>Modern day marxists/communists are also relatively harmless
How I wish idiocy was as harmless as it looks like.

>>17884665
communism is 0.1% more popular*
Bare in mind that nowadays everyone with access to internet can choose to become dumber willingly

>>17881200
The only intelligent post in the thread

>>17884665
Leftypol trannies these days are shifting from leftism to making communism more appealing by trying to merge with ethno-nationalist and anti semitism. They are trying way too hard.

>>17881080
>>Labor Creates Value
Not Marx. Stopped reading there. There will be nothing of worth in this thread. Goodbye.

>>17885043
Correct response. Any one who tries to criticize Marx's LTV without explicitly clarifying socially necessary labor time, is to be dismissed as a pseud and/or a shill

>>17883965
>The best part of BreadTube is that they all had to stop doing debates because they kept getting publicly annihilated
in your head, maybe
take your meds, schizo

>>17885496
You know it's true. They all refuse to do debates now and they have to fall back on calling people debatelords and claiming they're using shady "debate tactics." It's quite pathetic.

>>17885106
>Any one who tries to criticize Marx's LTV without explicitly clarifying socially necessary labor time,
Thats just being polite and charitable. "Socially necessary labor time" is an embarrassment of an idea even to commies.

>>17882609
WHO IS SHE

>>17881080
Fuck off Popper. Kuhn raped you.

>>17882085
You're thinking of price, not value. Value is decided on an individual basis, price is determined by the market.

>>17884665
What I always wonder is why do socialists think they can force a historical inevitability? Do you think if Robespierre got in a time machine and went to 1400, stepped out and started calling on the burghers to rise up and overthrow the aristocracy that anyone would listen to him? If socialism is the inevitable consequence of our present circumstances, why agitate? Do you think you can shout at an organism "evolve, damn you, evolve!" to make its evolutionary change happen more rapidly? If anything, I would imagine that consciousness of one's own historical circumstances would be paralyzing to the natural development of a class. The bourgeoisie of 1400 was not the bourgeoisie of 1800, and nothing a time traveling Robespierre could possibly do could turn it into a revolutionary class. If socialists want their revolution to happen I think the most effective thing they could do is forget all about Marx and hope that everyone else does to, so that history can get back to its natural, unimpeded development.

>>17883962
>Y-y-YOU JUST DONT UNERSTAND HIM LIKE I DO!!!
>>>BAKA!!
Is this really all the Marxist left has to argue??
Not even a fucking quote from the book like it always claims its detractors dont post enough of????
Fuck sake anon
Dont make the left look like COMPLETE brainless fucking zealots.

>>17882085
>>value is not subjective. it is determined by society
yeah so it's a made up by people, which makes it subjective lol

>>17882026
>If I'd find a diamond on the floor with zero effort then according to the labour theory of value it's worth nothing, while if I'd put in all efforts to build a giant pile of reeking shit for 3 days I should be payed handsomely.
I love how this is true and yet communists cant understand it.

>>17883857
The unit of time is not the unit of currency, sorry you suck at undergraduate physics 101.

>>17881080
>Labor creates value
But this is true anon.

>>17884179
>>yea, i dont think anyone argues that labour is not a critical factor in value, but the idea that labour is the singular determination is just silly.
It's the mental trick of the humanists who determiend beforehand that workers were important, but since workers have only their work, they tried to make a price 100% about the work of the worker, ie how long does a worker needs to produce a good.

It's the usual hypocrisy of the atheist who tries to find a justification to his innate prejudices lol. It's all after the facts.

>>17882150
>>17882423
>>17883721
>>17886089
>>17883949
So if I work my ass off for the state I’m not fucking valuable? You’re all a bunch of wannabe jews, spouting degenerate and wicked things.

>>17883965
By whom?

>>17885553
Where's the proof of your claims?

>>17881164
>>17881080
If you want anybody to take you seriously, you should give quotes and examples of your own instead of just using meme arrows.

>>17881080
>Why does anyone take this utter fucking psued seriously??
The same reason Evolafags, Guenonfags and anyone else takes anyone seriously. Because they agree with each other. Objective truth does not exist.

>>17881080
>never had to work hard in his life
>got a free ride
>literally lived with no hardships
yeah why would I take this guys insights on labour and the lifes of the poor seriously?

>>17888620
Lumpen spotted.