/lit/ - Literature

>>17855831
>influenced by various African languages
The African languages African Americans haven't had contact with or spoken in hundreds of years?

>>17855831
Is the NIDF saying that language is genetic now?

>>17855831
Niggers are hilarious

If anything it's probably more derived from southerners speaking like retards but they won't admit it. Muh afreeka

>>17855880
I doubt much survived of the cultural heritage although people keep saying that as it concerns music for example. Not qualified to comment on that but I don't really see much of a historical transmission, It's propably a matter of avoiding biological differences.

>>17855831
Faulkner comes pretty close. African American vernacular is obviously close to the general vernacular of the deep south where most Blacks were employed as farming equipment, and this is the vernacular Faulkner uses in much of his writing, but especially in As I Lay Dying.

>>17855831
Jesus the race problem in the US is crazy to witness from outside

>>17855831
>"It's the *blank* for me." is negro slang
Thanks for the heads up. I shall make sure to never use it and chide whoever does.

>>17857538
>>17855880
There's nothing "African" about Ebonics, or Black culture in general. It's literally just a shitty ripoff of Irish culture (and Southern culture, but that's increasingly fading) and Anglo-Irish language.

If Ebonics were at all influenced by African languages, we'd see a few features
>movement towards higher rate of synthesis (that is, more conjugation/declension)
>strict tense systems
>relatively loose aspect systems
>tonality
>expanded phonological inventory
>noun classes

instead, we see

>movement towards higher rate of analysis (that is, less conjugation/declension)
>basically non-existent tense system ("when" an action takes place)
>complex aspect system (an action's "completeness")
>no tones
>greatly reduced phonological inventory
>lmfao fucking noun classes? ebonics is losing what's left of fucking gender in English, replacing the third person pronouns with "dat nigga" and "dem niggaz"

Ebonics is just a variety of English, with zero foreign influence, and is undergoing all of the linguistic developments that English as a whole is being subjected to in accordance with it having zero foreign influence.

purr

>>17857648
It's influenced by their African genes

>>17855831
What a giant load of bullshit.
>people take unsourced infographics seriously now if they only look like they're made by a graphics designer

>tfw read books so know southern blacks spoke more civilized English than the white parvenus simply by reading English Victorian travel writing.
Can't wait til America finds out the transatlantic accent was invented by movie studios postulating what a posh American would sound like.

>>17857648
Based linguist anon

>>17855831
>AAVE
>African American Ventricular English
>Ventricular
-_-

>>17857812
It's from the heart, bro

>>17857648
Anon please clarify how it rips off Irish Culture I'm very interested in this topic. Is there any books about what you're saying?

>>17857648
based

The Pidgin Bible, aka Da Jesus Book is as close as I can get to some black skin tone dialect.

>>17855831
>stan language
isn't that something to do with eminem

>>17858318
That's Hawaiian pidgin though. That's a mix of Pacific languages from native Hawaiian to Chinese, and Portuguese and English. There's very little black influence because it's the wrong side of the Panama canal to have seen the same slave trade.

>>17858280
Not him, but Sowell has written about it in Ethnic America, as one example.

>>17858385
For some reason it just sounds African as fuck to me.

>>17858385
>>17858406
iirc Pidgin is also the name of a dialect spoken in parts of Nigeria

>>17858464
The book he's talking about is in Hawaiian pidgin. There are loads of pidgins all over the world, including Nigerian pidgin, just like there are different creoles and not just Haitian creole.

>>17855831
Yes, but I was forced to read them in school amd I refuse to recommend them.

Do other minorities/races in non-US countries have their own special dialect or sublanguage?

>>17858806
I'm Hispanic and we don't really butcher English. Instead we just throw in Spanish slang here and there into our speech when talking to each other.

>>17858877
are the spanish language generals on /int/ as autistic as they seem?

>>17858806
Kinda, I remember that we had to learn what sociolects were during high school (Sweden). Ironically, Swedish minorities often use English words with American dialect (“oh hell naaaw” for example)

>>17859109
>America has now exported becoming-minority to non-American minorities
Dude what

>>17859123
There was a wave of BLM protests in europe b/c of saint floyds overdose. The internet has made a single massive cultural sphere for (inner city) minorities in the west. Blacks in the suburbs of paris, london and brussels are extremely influenced by american blacks

It literally popped out of the Scottish Highlands
More specifically the early early modern version of the tongue which moved to the south and niggers picked up when they arrived
The African languages of western Africa at the time of the slave trade were very much influenced by Arabic but we see no such influence in niggerspeak

>>17855831
I don't even dislike black people that much, but I'm getting so burnt out on the overrepresentation in media.
Literally only watching movies from the 90s and earlier because it's fucking ridiculous how everybody's black now. You'd think they're the majority of the population or something, instead of whatever tiny proportion they make up.
Anyway. Mexicans are the people who are getting fucked over and oppressed the most these days.

>>17857648
holy based

>>17857687
AAAAAHHHH SAVE ME NIGGERMAN

>>17857648
based effortposter

>>17857648
Good post.

>>17858280
There were a lot of Irish, Scottish, and Scots-Irish slave owners. Incidentally I share an protestant Irish ancestor with Mark Twain, the guy who wrote the best book to feature AAVE.

>>17855831
Actually, AAVE IS a product of the 21st century and it’s fucking dragging my portfolio to hell with it

>>17855831
>>17855880
It's just Southern English but somehow even more retarded. The slaves learned the language of their masters.

>>17859123
Black Britons sound like ghetto nigs, even though they have literally never even lived together.

>>17855831
yeah there was a thread on it a few months ago

>>17860228
wtf is that image?

>>17860228
Port finna get laid out to flat zero, no cap my dude

>>17860262
the finnish ghost of christmas (hanukkah) future

>>17859183
This, American blacks have more in common with scots-irish tongues than African or Arabian languages

>>17855880
>>17857538
>>17857648
Gullah English definitely does have African features, which it shares with caribbean creoles and patois.
Certain words and phrases - thinks like saying 'ya dun know' are african i think - but i'm not sure how much these feature in AAVE

>>17860255
>when everyone found out how red-pilled these books are
that was a fun thread

>>17855831
Finna was invented on /asp/, not by the blacks

>>17857535
They eat, talk, and act like the Cajuns

There were entire latin based languages in Northern Africa that were wiped out by the slave trade and exported to plantations where they eventually became creole.
That said, "African American Culture" is a hoax. Culture is based on common connections and geography, blood and soil like they used to say, and it would be impossible to put all black people in the US and Canada into one common cultural group. AAC is just psych-ops to create a consumer class of black 'trendsetters' (compulsive consumers) and white 'hipsters' (conscientious consumers) to market to.
It also helps to stir race tensions ever half decade so the gov can bomb a third world nation or steal tax money without any outrage.

John R Rickford: "The fundamental question is whether a significant number of the Africans who came to the United States between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries went through processes of pidginization, creolization and (maybe) decreolization in acquiring English (the creolists' position), or whether they learned the English of British and other immigrants fairly rapidly and directly, without an intervening pidgin or creole stage (the dialectologists' position)."

-Some scholars contend that West Africans learned English on plantations in the southern Coastal States (Georgia, South Carolina, etc) from a very small number of native speakers (indentured laborers) creating a rudimentary pidgin via transient encounters later expanded through creolization.

-Others insist that the conditions necessary for the emergence of a fully fledged creole language were never met in the US, arguing that presumed features have a precedent in various varieties of English spoken in Great Britain and the southern United States - i.e. the Settler/Cracker Culture.

-The accent is likely a combination of reciprocal feedback in slave-holding communities. In the American south, there's an extant coastal creole called Gullah. There's also Kouri-Vini. The non-rhoticity of the antebelleum south (magnolia drawl) is uncommon in the modern accent, which is rhotic (see: southern vowel shift as rural communities mixed post-Civil War).

Sources:

Melville Jean Herskovits - The Myth of the Negro Past (1941)
Shana Poplack, Sali Tagliamonte - African American English in the Diaspora (2001)
Walt Wolfram, Ben Ward - American Voices: How Dialects Differ from Coast to Coast (2005)
Comparative 'Pop' Anthropology:

Thomas Sowell - Black Rednecks and White Liberals (2005)
Richard Nisbett, Dov Cohen - Culture of Honor: The Psychology of Violence in the South (1996)
J. D. Vance - Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis (2016)

>>17857648
Based and saved to my AROUND BLACKS NEVER RELAX folder

>>17860365
what you mean cuz

>>17860255
link?

>>17855831
Lol

>>17858400
he has a really great essay on the influence of scottish culture on modern african-americans

>>17855831
SPOTEMGOTTEM & POOH SHIESTY LINKED UP

NEED IT OR KEEP IT??!

>>17861742
Name of essay?

>>17860111
>Protestant
>Irish
Pick one

>>17862125
Wolfe Tone

>>17860255
>>17860365
I need to know more

>>17862151
Secret Italian

There's some modern poetry written in AAVE.
Is there literature written in other informal dialects, like southern american or midwestern?
I'm genuinely asking, I don't really read. I can imagine that there are some books that would want to paint the narrator as an everyday common-man type by making them narrate in their local, informal dialect. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be done for black narrators. In fact, I read a book as a kid that I believe was written in AAVE, "SLAM!"
Obviously not high literature but still a book. But also maybe I'm misremembering it.

>>17862194
>>17861691
just look up quan millz on warosu

>>17862558
Thanks

>>17859123
African people in Europe are becoming carbon copies of African Americans because of how much they influence mass culture. London is an insufferable fucking shithole where everyone just rips off America’s ghetto culture but in an even worse way

I've gone on tirades against officializing ebonics as a dialect for a number of reasons. One of the biggest defenses of it is "If enough people speak it. Its a dialect." To which sure, fine but that does not mean we need to give it legitimacy.
Id then go on to say that its absolute bastardization of American English (can it bongs), is a damn good reason to not recognize it as an official dialect like one might do for Pidgin. For Pidgin, the Africans speak African languages that are miles different than anglophone languages. They also speak this in Africa. While teaching them proper English would be preferable, they live in an environment where that can't be reasonably requested. But here in America where you not only have connectivity with the rest of the world but everyone within your country, are natively speaking English, and have the all the tools of the Education System (shut.) at your disposal, there's no reason for you to be speaking a dialect let alone having it be legitimized.
Then I get called a racist and the conversation ends.
Its all so tiresome.

>>17862828
>Then I get called a racist and the conversation ends.
I mean that does sound pretty racist, senpai

>>17862196
Do we have to give getting a one and one back too?

>>17855831
does anyone else here refuse to associate with anybody who uses niggerisms? i am as serious as the grave
>>17862828
be racist then you fucking retard

>be black American
>comfortably speak "AAVE" because I grew up in that environment
>my parents also taught me the value of speaking properly and being educated so people don't take you for a fool
>mfw academics try to make "AAVE" anything beyond speech that's common among the poor and uneducated
It's almost like they still want blacks to be somekind of circus attraction or something. I'm so tired of this planet.

>>17863076
>be black American

>>17863092
Yes, run away, oogabooga.

>>17862257
Junot Diaz's "This is how you lose her" is written from the first person perspective of a Dominican immigrant in America.

>>17863076
>>be black American
>>my parents
Sure thing, Mr. Goldman.

>>17863266
>being so new he uses two carrots to free text like he sees in post numbers
Lurk moar faggot

>>17860228

>>17863277
>>being so new he uses two carrots to free text like he sees in post numbers
>Lurk moar faggot
Nah buddy, I won't bother to edit my posts for a NIGGER or a KIKE.

>>17863316
What’s it like to be gay with your dad?

>>17863322
Gay, mostly.

>>17855831
I recently read the chile for the first time and was profoundly confused. Still no clue what it means. Chill, chill ey, chilli like hot, chill hey, or smth like that I‘m guessing.

t. actually reads

>>17863335
Child

>>17855880
>>17857648
>There's nothing "African" about Ebonics,
This. The ONLY "african" thing about the way american blacks speak is they way they mangle white southern dialect with their inferior denosovian brains. It's amusing the way minstrel shows were amusing. Whites adopt it ironically because talking like niggers for comedic emphasis is spices up throwaway conversations.

>>17862828
>I've gone on tirades against officializing ebonics as a dialect for a number of reasons. One of the biggest defenses of it is "If enough people speak it. Its a dialect." To which sure, fine but that does not mean we need to give it legitimacy.
Why not? If enough people speak it and it's clearly different from General American English, then how is it not a legitimate dialect?
>Id then go on to say that its absolute bastardization of American English
Variations in conventional english grammar and pronunciation do not constitute a "bastardization". That's literally how dialects form. Your mention of American English here is incredibly ironic and disproves your point.
>While teaching them proper English would be preferable, they live in an environment where that can't be reasonably requested.
Why would it be preferable to force a foreign dialect on to a group of people who are all conversing with each other?
The purpose of language is communication, so long as members of the community can all understand each other, what's the issue?
>But here in America where you not only have connectivity with the rest of the world but everyone within your country, are natively speaking English, and have the all the tools of the Education System (shut.) at your disposal, there's no reason for you to be speaking a dialect let alone having it be legitimized.
The white and black communities in America are different from one another, and still somewhat segregated. It's only natural that those of different communities talk differently from one another, and most AAVE speakers also speak General American English to those outside their community because it can be necessary for communication.
>Then I get called a racist and the conversation ends.
Are you a racist, anon?

>>17855831
>he hasn't heard of Qwan Millz
Newfags pls go

>>17863366
Absolutely retarded post.
>If people speak it that makes it legitimate
Institutions give it legitimacy.
>Ebonics is only variations in conventional grammar
No. Also don't think you're clever pointing out the American English issue. Dialects also primarily form surrounding a barrier between types of speakers for reasons like original language, education, or geographic location
>Why would it be preferable to force a foreign dialect
Its not foreign. Its completely native to them. Thats part of the argument for not legitimizing it.
>If they can all understand each other
And nobody understanding them is fine?
>White and Black communities
And Asian and Hispanic and Arabic and mixed and...
Funny how the monkey speak only occurs in one of these groups though...
>Its only natural
To a degree, about as much as Southern English deviates from North Eastern or Western English. Yet all of those groups still have no issue understanding one another.
>Most AAVE speakers
Ebonics.
>Also speak General American English
First off, no they don't. They spread their brain rot everywhere they go. The ones that have any semblance of a brain do but those are few and far between.
>Are you racist?
Keep talking this trash and I fucking will be. If a group of individuals is magically immune to reason and criticism for some stupid reason like "muh slaves" or "muh 6 gorillion" then my next argument is going to be with the Faggot Bat.

AAVE is being pushed as a legitimized way of speaking to defend it from criticism when the criticism generally begins and ends at "speak anything resembling English grammar". Yet despite having the internet, a standardized education system, the intermingling of the entire fucking country, and being in the goddamn information age, people still want to pretend AAVE is an actual dialect instead of an excuse for people to never learn English. Go ahead and try to find "variations" in it. You won't be able to. Because it differs from person to person, neighborhood to neighborhood, and region to region. Continuous and especially not consistent mispronounciation does not merit your stupid ass legitimacy.
Fuck outta here bish ass creepin hoe sheeeeit

>>17863428
>ANYWAYS
Alright, I'm hooked

>>17863366
>>17863740

People don't need your permission to speak however they please, and that is exactly why groups create their own case specific languages.
The weapon of exploitation and extortion has always been the leveraging of the comparative advantage of inclusion, and the oppressed have always reacted with an exclusion of their own primarily expressed through their culture and their language.
Even the word "ciao" spoken as a greeting or salutation all across Eurasia for centuries is a bastardization of the word for "slave:"
No one cares if the elites accept or reject what was created as a response to exclusion.

>>17863740
>Institutions give it legitimacy.
What do you mean by legitimacy?
People can talk however they want. I don't give a fuck what some academic retards say about what's right or wrong.
>No.
Explain how I'm wrong
>Also don't think you're clever pointing out the American English issue.
Explain how I'm wrong
>Dialects also primarily
Primarily
>form surrounding a barrier between types of speakers for reasons like original language, education, or geographic location
In this case, cultural and physical barriers
>Its not foreign. Its completely native to them.
Then why don't they speak it natively?
>And nobody understanding them is fine?
They understand themselves in their communities. If they want to communicate outside their community it'd be a good idea for them to understand General American, as most AAVE speakers do.
>And Asian
Who generally assimilate to white/general american culture
>and Hispanic
Who generally assimilate to black american culture and speak AAVE
>and Arabic
Who are relatively new immigrants AFAIK and are nowhere near as segregated as black people historically have.
>and mixed and...
Stupid to categorize all as one group, but a lot identify with black culture and speak AAVE
>Funny how the monkey speak only occurs in one of these groups though...
So you are racist
>To a degree, about as much as Southern English deviates from North Eastern or Western English.
Black culture is way more unified and important to a lot of people's identities than region, you can't compare them.
>Yet all of those groups still have no issue understanding one another.
Do you not understand AAVE?
>Ebonics.
Why do you care about this? Are you alright?
No, you're not. I'm not gonna respond to the rest because it's just you crying and having a mental breakdown.
What's your job, anon?

>>17863795
Hey man I agree with you

>>17859185
prep up for 4 billion africans and mass immigration

>>17855831
I'm actually a racist but this would be kino.

>>17863866
Then ESL is also a dialect.

>>17864056
That's not what we conventionally think of as a dialect, and I don't really think there's much use in classifying it as such.
ESL isn't a cultural or geographic phenomenon, it's not spoken by anyone natively, children of ESL speakers don't take on their parents accent, pronunciation, grammar, etc. ESL is a transition period.

>>17864148
>That's not what we conventionally think of as a dialect
>>17863866
>People can talk however they want. I don't give a fuck what some academic retards say about what's right or wrong.
Who is we? What incentive do I have to not consider it a dialect when you're trying to legitimize a system of rules and requirements that are supposed to turn it into a dialect to begin with?
How's it any different than vulgar latin?

Also I disagree about it not being a cultural or geographic phenomenon. Because of the internet it is.

>>17855831
>Niggers are so imbecilic that they cannot speak proper English
That's truly laughable.

this resurgance in moorish science temple shit is kind of hillarious

>>17855831
those hood romance books

>>17857581
only in the media and on the internet

>>17864183
>Who is we?
I see what you're saying here.
I was referring to the definition of a dialect in linguistics, what is agreed upon. A definition is a definition, I can't change it unless I get a large enough group of people to define it differently with me.
However, I can accept the definition and then disagree with how the definition is used to classify things. I can say that based on the definition of "dialect" we all agree on, not classifying AAVE as a dialect doesn't make any sense.
>What incentive do I have to not consider it a dialect when you're trying to legitimize a system of rules and requirements that are supposed to turn it into a dialect to begin with?
What rules and requirements am I trying to legitimize
>How's it any different than vulgar latin?
What do you mean by this?
>Also I disagree about it not being a cultural or geographic phenomenon. Because of the internet it is.
It's possible a distinct dialect could form through this, but for the time being ESL is just a transition period for English learners.
They don't have enough difference in vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation outside of mistakes stemming from them being learners.
I know you're now going to say "why are those mistakes mistakes but what AAVE does is just part of the dialect." Ask an ESL if it's correct, overwhelmingly they will say no, because the overall population of ESLs are trying to get better at english, and to hopefully sound like a native speaker. Groups who speak actual dialects don't think they're speaking the language wrong, they consider their dialect part of the language.
Also, again, I don't think a dialect makes any sense if it never has any native speakers, and I don't think there's a way for ESL communities online to acquire a reasonably consistent, distinct dialect without native speakers.

>>17855831
>AAVE
Thought I was on /biz/ for a second

>>17863366
But they can't communicate
You should look up studies done on pregnant teens trying to express how they were feeling about becoming moms at a young age
Most of them speak these retarded shouting matches being paraded as dialects and couldn't even express the simplest emotions
Turns out that low class dialects tend to be very impoverished in their power of expression

>>17857648
Based, american niggers make african ones look like saints

>>17866328
It’s the other way around