/lit/ - Literature

Post Christian sci-fi and fantasy
>The Space trilogy
>Book of the New Sun

For anyone who knows the fictional world of Glorantha, is anyone here able to recommend some novels (besides King of Sartar, obviously) that give you the mythic, heroic vibes of that setting?

Anyone recommend some good military sci fi where China is the boogeyman.. or ww3 books? Just did TC McCarthys.. Subterrene series, and Tyger Burning. In both China blurs the line with merging their soldiers with A.I.. so they pretty much cease to be 'human' and become something different, and become the evil enemy of humanity. Which is probably not too far from the mark since in RL they have almost no morals with human experimentation.

I was just conned out of $2K USD in one of the biggest scams in /biz/ history ($GRUMPY). And holy shit bros, Bakker is so, so right about human nature. The way we hook our unknown desires to powers that seem beyond us. The way we delude ourselves into making our base cravings seem lofty and meaningful. The animal striving at the heart of every man, intermingled and impossibly confused with his yearning for truth and clarity. The vastness of the darkness that comes before.... and how easily men can be manipulated by those who understand its power.

When I saw the rug being pulled, the money empty from my account, the hopes and dreams I’d hitched on this dream vanish into mist, I understood exactly how Saubon and Proyas would have felt.

>>17837758
>not a Vtuber OP image
Cringe

Swear this Unbreakable Oath with me!

>>17837771
A Canticle for Leibowitz

reminder to read the epics, even the poo ones

>>17837796
Just imagine, 4chan gets a childrens literature board, every post on genre fiction get immediately and without hesitation send to that board. Thousands if manchildren cry.

>>17837857
Especially the poo ones

>>17837827
I was going to use this picture, but decided against it. Don't know why people are against anime.

>>17837893
vtubers have nothing to do with anime though

>>17837893
>Don't know why people are against anime.
its unironically the bakkerfags

>>17837893
v tubers are not anime they are shitty e-thots who are smart enough to understand they are too ugly to do it normally.

>>17837904
Doubt it, bakker writes like he is writing some edgy anime.

>>17837904
Based Bakkerfags

>>17837827
Dilate

>>17837916
not really. anime is sanderson’s game
>>17837920
based

>>17837948
Both are quite anime really, just different flavors of anime.

Also
>someone jokingly criticizes Bakker
>Bakkerfags bring up Sanderson
Like clockwork.

>>17837893
Vtumor isn't anime.

>>17837771
Hyperion

>>17837771
LOTR

Which of these should I read next? Should I skip any of them altogether?
>The Quantum Thief
>Neuromancer
>Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

E William Brown.
Fuck!

>>17838371
quantum thief was fucking miserable, neuromancer is ok but the ending's pretty bad. you should read the one by philip k dick.

>>17824492
>If you break the blade off completely it turns into a lightsaber knife
Reading too much Dresden Files.

>>17838371
The Quantum Thief had some really good stuff, and some really bad stuff
I'dd say it's worth it as long stomaching cringe references won't harm you too much

>>17837758
>vcancer is gone from the op
finallly

>>17839128
Why are you so bothered by anime, anon?

>>17839139
Does it trouble you?

>>17839239
No, I just want to know why someone who hates anime is in a website about anime?

>>17839246
I accept your surrender trannimefag.

>>17837893
I'll just echo everyone else, the majority of vtuber fans have a disdain for "unironically watching anime". They are ironic weeb incarnates.

>>17838907

how do the Foundation novels hold up? How many of them should I read? here's what I'm thinking of reading next

>Foundation Book 1
>Embassytown
>Snow Crash (reread.. but have read this back in the late 90s.. I'm an oldfag everyone)
>Revelation Space (reread from when it first came out.. something about a captain in cryogenic sleep? I forgot the plot but I remember the tone was very dark)
>some Philip K Dick reread..maybe Flow My Tears

I'll check the prince of nothing series to see what all the shilling is about
Will it catch me with the first book? or does it take more than that?

>>17839537
Would you be caught by a dick going deep into your ass? Because that's how it feels reading Bakker's masterpiece series, and the more you read, the deeper it gets.

>>17837893
>Don't know why people are against anime
I like anime, that doesn't mean it should be everywhere, you're acting like bronies forcing your toons into everything
this general has nothing to do with anime

>>17839537
yeah it should catch you w/ the first book.. if you don't like the first book, then drop it all together

>>17839537
In my experience, I got intrigued with the general setting, but got hooked at the ending on the first book. The second book is, in general, way better than the first though.

>>17838861
>cringe references
Any particularly bad examples? Just wanna know what I might be getting into

I've heard people recommend the witcher books but only the short stories
which books specifically are those?

>>17839659
The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny, both of which I also recommend despite the translations being a bit subpar. There's also Season of Storms which is another collection of short stories written after the series proper, but I have yet to read that and frankly never will after how sharply Sapkowski's writing quality dropped

I'm reading Three Body Problem, it's getting pretty good. What are some other books that are about exploring wild concepts? Like Rendezvous With Rama and 2001 and some short stories by Borges. But not too wild that they feel supernatural, like Ubik and Flow Your Years the Policeman said.

>>17839433
>how do the Foundation novels hold up? How many of them should I read?
Also wondering this. Heard the sequels are trash

>>17839582
A simulated reality ran by weebs
Notch cube be a basic structural building block (who could that be named after)
Book's got a LOT of references, and when those are to old detective series, history, religions, philosophy, folklore, etc. I'm completely fine. Some of the stuff is even really clever.
But when it touches on things that are too recent, it's ultra cringe

Think the author is just too old, to realize that stuff isn't cool by anyone anymore.
I suppose you are intended to catch all the references, as they are not important. But when you do, some just are stupid.
It's book 3 that got the dumb stuff.

>>17839700
Sequels are trash.

>>17839700
I don't hate the Foundation sequels but they're more straightforward space adventure stuff as opposed to the sweeping historical story that made the series iconic. Also the very ending is kind of controversial for spoilerly reasons.

>>17839910
I'm confused, when you say 'Foundation sequels' do you means all the books after book 1, or do you mean something else?

>>17839922
I mean the books written after the original trilogy (Foundation/Foundation and Empire/Second Foundation). They all came decades after the fact and that shows in the style.

>>17839952
ah ha. thanks. Ok, I think I'm going to get this:

https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-Empire-Second-Everymans-Library/dp/184159332X

>>17839996
Yeah that covers the original stories. Shame about that cover though; the series had some great art drawn for it over the years and they could do a lot better than Asimov's doughy head.

I finished Shadow & Claw, am I retarded for not really understanding everything that's happening?

>>17840049
Only sort of. BotNS is like LOTR in that it doesn't really make any sense to stop in the middle like you're done. It's not a series; it's one continuous story. You'll understand more if you read the next 2 and you will understand almost everything if you finish Urth.

>>17840049
Don't forget to go on specialized reddit to learn about all the clues and mysteries Wolfe has woven into his great epic, you need to reread it at least like 2 or three times to fully comprehend it. It's not for the impatient or the easily filtered lol

Dune was just okay but not worth all of the hubbub.

>>17840099
>making this post

>>17838371
Neuromancer

Why is this guy such a massive faggot? I mean everybody writing fantasy nowadays are massive metrosexual nu-males (except for the old hands like GRRM and Erikson) but even Sanderson doesn't have that condescending tone like this guy, every time I hear his voice I start seething

>>17840161
your fault for reading fantasy retard

>>17840133
>It's not for the impatient
> or the easily filtered
which one are you

>>17840161
That's a terrible beard, why would you bother growing it out if it isn't thick and luscious and looks like a massive mess of face pubes

>>17840161
Because he's someone who stopped working as soon as he made somewhat of a name for himself. Now he coasts on his reputation and hasn't written anything in years.

>>17840176
People with beards like that don't have them by choice
they're just too lazy to shave or do anything to improve their looks

>>17840176
To distract you from his rapidly receeding hairline

Any books about molesting boys and then making them into assassins?

>>17840270
I hate how this actually sounds like a cool premise

>>17840270
The Prince of Nothing, unironically

>>17840224
Why would you talk about something you know nothing about?

>>17837792
autumn rain is cyberpunk but has plenty of mil-scifi power armor action in it.

>>17839246
vtumor
is not
anime.

Lord of the Rings is fantasy by a linguist. Can someone recommend me fantasy that feels like it was written by an anthropologist? I want to see the unusual and different ways people live and why, to come to understand them, all with some excitement and maybe magic thrown in.

>>17840319
Anon, don’t be reductive in the definition.

Recommend me some fantasy that'll get my blood pumping. Exciting action stuff. I'd just read some S&S but I want the heroes to feel heroic.

>>17840357
Bakker's takes an anthropological (I'd say even racialist) and linguistic approach when describing the people of Eärwa, how many fucking times do we have to tell you holy shit

>>17840372
This is the first time I've asked.

>>17840376
It should be included in the OP that Bakker is required reading before posting itt, seriously

>>17840357
I mean, the author of Malazan Book of the Fallen is an anthropologist and incorporated a lot of what he knew into his work so

>>17840384
Why would you want to force people to read garbage?

>>17840376
He's baiting you, don't fall for it.

>>17840391
>>17840393
Filtered

>>17840384
>Bakker is required reading
i would rather die

>>17840385
Oh, sick, thanks!
>>17840393
Appreciated.

>>17840399
You can't be filtered by anything that lacks depth of thought.

>>17840372
I tried to read Bakker and all I remember about it is that I want to fuck that sociopath Khelus or whatever his name is.

>>17837758
Does anyone else struggle to visualize the characters within a novel if the author overdescribes them?
Don't get me wrong, I can visualize a character just fine if fhe author gives a description of their eyes, hair, and a general semblance of what they're wearing, however, when the author starts describing every facet of a character, I genuinely struggle to visualize them. An example would be an author describing everything them from the buckles on their shoes, to the color of their belt, to the undershirt bearly poking out of their armor etc.

How do you cope with naming characters?

I always struggle to give them names, it feels too intimate and I always worry people will think the character is inspired by someone I know irl

>>17837893
Not only are vtubers not /sffg/-related nor literature-related in the slightest, they're not any more anime than some dude's female MMO character. You have a board, if you want to post Pekora in wizard outfits or whatever the fuck else go there or to /c/ to do it. On other boards with generals hijacking the OP to post completely unrelated images is an easy way to get banned and it's only happening here because /lit/ has very little moderation compared to much of the site.
>b-but 4chan is an anime website
Both correct and completely irrelevant. You have as much justification for posting Vtubers as I do for derailing the thread discussing 3.0+1.0 spoilers, which is to say none at all. Control your power level or go back to /vt/.

>>17840270
YA edge kino

>>17840763
Is the main character an edgelord or a hero?

>>17840358
e-celebs are not anime.
vtubers are personas, not a subsection of media.
vtuber fans =/= anime fans

>>17840471
>go back to /vt/.
thank you anon, somebody had to say it

>>17840767
I haven't read it since I was like 13 but I recall him being an edgelord but kind of an okay guy overall.

>>17840767
it's pure edgeshit

>>17837758
Then Will the Sun Rise Alabaster - Benjanun Sriduangkaew (2019)
A novelette that takes place in her Machine Mandate setting. It doesn't stand on its own very well. It's like someone presents you a prologue and you say, "This is a good start" to which they respond, "It's finished." There's little else that needs to be said after that. At best it's as if one were reading a single story from a mosaic novel. The story can be summarized as being a work of anti-catholic lesbian liberation in a space cloister. There's a lesbian threesome, but it's only lightly described.
Rating: 2.5/5

>>17840357
Earthsea

>tfw over 100k words into draft and not even halfway through the plot
>starting to worry that there's way too much dialogue
>can't cut any of it because the story is partially a mystery and it's all plot relevant or required character exposition
>in fact, I'm worried that there isn't ENOUGH dialogue between two key characters to justify their relationship later on
I guess I'll just pretend to serialize this on RoyalRoad for shekels once it's done.

>>17840049
Kind of. I never had difficulty following the story. Obviously there are minutia I missed on my first reading, and new understanding wells up with each re-read, but you don't need to put forth tons of effort to get substantially the intended experience. Much easier read than LOTR.

>>17840385
So it sucks then.

Well, /wg/ is dead, nothing there but shitposting, blogposting, bitching about muh anime, etc. Animefags are the only ones even writing in /wg/ threads anyways. You guys know any sites for writing?

>>17840926
Go to reddit, 4chan is animu site

>>17837792
Titan, by Stephen Baxter. The US and China kick the shit out of each other with a race-specific plague and an asteroid strike near the end.

>>17840357
A linguist, but also equally a Catholic, a true Briton, a naturalist, a reluctant war hero, and a mythologist. Distilling LOTR to "he wrote the books so his languages would have a place to exist!" is a bad way to understand it.

>>17840938
I only meant that his linguistics were a major feature of his writing. I know some people have been a bit reductive about it before, though.

>>17837820
Did you get fucked in the ass too?

>>17839659
Either the translations suck, or the books aren't anything extraordinary. They're good pulp fiction.

>>17839695
Anything by Stephen Baxter. Be warned that big ideas are the protagonists, so his characters often amount to vehicles for exploring them. Try Vacuum Diagrams, his short story collections are good samplers of his general vibe.

>>17837792
Just read the news.
Or read Unrestricted Warfare to see how China has been winning the clandestine war for 30 years without retaliation because the globohomo are effectively Nazgul slaves whose monetary rings of power are nothing more than the links of their chains.

>>17840846
If you had to guess, what's the percentage split between your dialog and prose?

>>17840978
50% each.

>>17840953
>Be warned that big ideas are the protagonists, so his characters often amount to vehicles for exploring them.
True for 3BP too. Any decent science fiction should do the same. If I wanted character studies I wouldn't be reading genre fiction.

>>17840971
Does every poltard talk in buzzword salads because they are schizos, or is it just a style they affect because they are retards who don't even understand what they are talking about in the first place?

>>17840422
So, no one else feels the same way?

>>17840983
Your first encounter with a /pol/ zombie? Be glad you don't have to interact with them in real life too.

>>17840989
No, stop asking.

>>17840934
Unironically this
>>17840926
r/fantasywriters - if you want a community of like-minded, fantasy writers
r/writingcirclejerk - to keep yourself humble
r/destrictivereaders - when you're ready to have your shit critiqued

>>17840980
There used to be a website that allowed you to search for fantasy novels based on certain parameters, such as the nature of the protagonist or setting of the world. I used it back in the early to mid 2000s. One of the search tools was description vs. dialog, and one of the options was roughly equal. So I don't think having a 50/50 split is necessarily bad so long as you don't have a ton of dialog all in a row.

>>17840983
>doesn't know what I'm talking about
>therefore assumes it's nonsense
There really is no hope for people who won't educate themselves.

>>17840981
Then he's your man. I read 3BP precisely because I ran out of stuff by him and needed more and was pleasantly surprised to find Liu is basically Chinese Baxter.

>>17840983
They feel pretty beaten down these days, so they vent their frustration almost anywhere they can get away with it.

>>17840983
Modernism really has destroyed intention spans such that the grammatical has become unintelligible to the average retard.

>>17841006
>>17841009
>>17841014
You okay buddy? Having a problem with your "intention" spans?

>>17841022
More so with phoneposting. At least I can read though.

How good is Death's End? Is it as exciting as the first two books? I finished The Dark Forest in about 3 days when fit the past year I've been struggling to get through much of anything. Considering shelving A Dance With Dragons for the time being (200 pages in) and finishing that series instead.

It's not that I'm not enjoying Asoiaf, I really am, but their length and relatively slow pace make it hard to pick up habitually when busy with college and everything surrounding it.

This is only really a concern because I hate reading more than one book at a time and I probably won't be able to finish both before the summer where I won't habe access to either

Anyways, here's a cool building

>>17840989
Yeah. Raymond Chandler had the right idea about describing characters, I think. He would just give one or two witticisms about them that sound right even if they're retarded when you actually think about it.

>>17841107
It's good but extremely rushed imo. Liu could easily have made 2 or even 3 books out of it. Also, if you, like me, think the ending of Dark Forest satisfactorily closes the story of Earth and the Trisolarans, consider stopping there, as everything goes to shit in the first third of the book.

>>17841129
While the ending was satisfying for sure, there was enough in TDF that hinted at where the series was going to make me want to finish it. There was that brief mention about "lighting a fire in the forest" IIRC. Outside of what can be learned from the back cover, is there anything you can tell me about the actual content of the book? I don't really mind lighter spoilers

>>17840995
Thanks, I'll check it out.

>>17840785
how edgy?

>>17841145
Luo Ji disappears from the story, except for a few cameos. The new characters are very interesting, but imo they can get annoying and some shouldn't even exist because they contribute nothing to to the story. There are some amazing things like a guy that fell in love with a black hole and another one who was revived by the first Trisolaran fleet and ends up living with them (but we never see a Trisolaran, don't get your hopes up). Near the end there's a HUGE timeskip, so there's room for all sorts of stories Liu could think up in that span and there are tantalizing hints of what happens to humanity and other species in the between. The ending was alright, but unfortunately there's a key detail that seems to have basically been invalidated by physical research since the books were published (big crunch), so that made it hit way less strongly for me. But maybe I'm just autistic.

>>17841185
I see.

>>17841185
Sounds awesome. A guy falling in love with a black hole sounds both entertaining and completely in character with the rest of the books. It's like Luo Ji's tulpa that never did much outside of give him a reason to want an irl waifu.

I don't mind Luo Ji being gone from the story, I never liked him that much. He was kind of a dick head the entire book. It's also not that surprising since the main character wasn't the same between book 1 and 2 anyways.

>>17841241
I really hated how Liu never even mentioned what happened to the main guy from 3BP. The autistic mathematician and Da Shi all got closure, but not him.

>>17841185
Also, what were your thoughts on the subplot about the small group of ships flying towards Andromeda? Personally I thought it was the absolute highlight of the book and really showed me how little the book pulled its punches

>>17841258
If you mean the survivors from the droplet "battle" in DF, I loved that part and the idea, but the third book doesn't do much with them other than telling you they succeeded in preserving humanity beyond Earth, that's part of the timeskip I mentioned. Zhang Beihai deserved better.

Is there something like slice of life fantasy? I liked the beginning of Perdido Street Station where the characters just do their everyday things

>>17840357
Foundation, although it's science-fantasy

>>17841306
Are there meandering books without overarching conflicts and increasing stakes? Yes my friend, you may open KU and download any given book and receive your wish.

I attempted to read Spin, by Robert Charles Wilson recently. This book is around 470 pages long, and in the first two hundred, NOTHING happened aside from the event that is the premise.
This book is awful. I don't know why it's considered a Classic. It's supposedly about Earth being enclosed in some sort of field that displaces it in time. On earth a day passes, outside the barrier a hundred thousand years pass. While this does worry people because it means the Sun will die within 50 years, others have the bright idea to kick start the terraforming of Mars, which can be done quickly due to the time displacement. Sounds interesting.

Except it's not actually about that. It's about the main characters relationship with a chick with major daddy issues and Borderline Personality disorder who spends the entire book sleeping around and joining retarded sex cults and about the two of them getting together. It's awful. Diane is awful. The main character is awful (I can't even remember his name). These people all suck, which I could deal with if the story didn't focus more on them than the mystery that is supposed to be its premise.

>>17841382
I thought it was a great read myself.

>>17837906
vtubers aren't uglier than regular whores, some of the most popular ones are even pretty good looking IRL. They have different reasons for using live2D.

>>17841422
They're waifus for no laifus.

Any good vampire themed novels that explore the actual monstrous state which is vampirism and arent YA girlbait

>>17841580
Interview has a lot of that, but instead of YA girlbait it's MA girlbait and genuinely pretty awful. Anything about Vampires is generally pretty awful actually.

>>17841580
Blindsight and Echopraxia have monstrous vampires.

>>17841422
BACK TO THE CONTAINMENT BOARD

>>17841700
I'm pretty sure vtubers are the next step in anime evolution.

>>17841700
4chan is an anime site
A vtuber girl is an anime girl
An anime girl holding a book or any props specific to fantasy and sci-fi is related to /lit/ and more specifically /sffg/
How about (you) go back to whatever hole you crawled from libtard mongrel

>>17841727
>>17841756
Don't you have anything better to do with your life than make threads on /lit/ and defend vtubers?

>>17841769
Talking about Science fiction and Fantasy

>>17841769
Do (you) have anything better to do other than getting your panties in a twist about chinese cartoons?

>>17839695
greg egan - permutation city
greg bear - blood music
(gregs and conceptual fever-dream scifi concepts, idk what the connection is)

>>17841790
Yes, because I don't waste all my time posting them.

>>17841129
>It's good but extremely rushed imo. Liu could easily have made 2 or even 3 books out of it. Also, if you, like me, think the ending of Dark Forest satisfactorily closes the story of Earth and the Trisolarans, consider stopping there, as everything goes to shit in the first third of the book.
And all of that shit could have been avoid if they just made the deterrent trigger have an x% chance of setting of the signal instead of it be all or nothing. But I guess no one thought of that. Despite inventing an entire field of study devoted to the subject of deterrence. And some how determining the deterrence factor has to be 80% (???) for some reason. Because the trisolarans totally wouldn't mind a mere 20% chance of being destroyed. What a dumb book.

Guys, should I bother starting the Malazan book series? All I hear is it is really complex but well worth it. In /lit/ standards I am probably a brainlet as I read maybe 1 book per 2 months. The only long series I read was the Song of Ice and Fire a long time ago. Nowadays I read stuff like Warhammer books or short stories. So maybe my attention span is too far now. But I still enjoy great writing if I get to it.

>>17840357
Try Vance.

>>17841941
Malazan is awful. It's on the level of the worse Warhammer books.

>>17841948
Something tells me you are meming but thanks. Another question: I read Hyperion and Fall of the Hyperion and absolutely loved it. I never got to the next books. Should I?

>>17841974
I'm not memeing, Malazan is legitimately awful. Constant edge and rape combined with a bunch of extremely cringeworthy MUHREENS OOH RAH nonsense. An absurdly bloated cast of characters and none of the plotlines ever actually get resolved because every book completely ditches whatever was happening in the previous book (which invariably was never resolved) and focuses on a completely new cast of characters doing something completely different.
Then there's the retarded power leveling. The author has an obsession with making whatever was established as a threat in the previous books get shit on by something else one or two books later, the middle school humor, and ridiculous action scenes which go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

>>17842005
Ok, that sounds like a huge time and energy investment for such a low return to me.
Some people describe it as "really dark" and strong stories that make you cry or that the writing is poetic etc. This sounded great...

>>17842005
that sounds awful desu

>>17839433
I really enjoyed literally everything related to Foundation, the series is actually really big if you want to read the whole thing, going from Earth to Robots to Galactic Empire to Foundation and Foundation sequels. Its a massive universe and its well connected to each other. Pic related, its honestly a pretty good read to read them in this order.

The three foundation novels are obviously the highlight of it all, but if you have time and want to read a more ebin story arch, I reccomend this.

>>17841974
This book is a complete mess in many ways, but it was still enjoyable to read.

Let me start with the good parts. First, there's a lot of creativity in this book. The world is interesting, the history is long and complex, and the world is bigger than any one character. Second, Erikson is an excellent writer. I couldn't have finished this book otherwise.

Now there are problems. It's going to sound like I'm really negative about the book and hate it. I don't hate it or Erikson. I do think it was over-ambitious for his level of writing ability at the time of writing. I also think there are some things new readers should know before starting.

* You expect a lot of new characters and places when you start a new fantasy series. Never have I been forced to endure such a steady stream of characters, histories, and magic systems with so little in the way of development or explanation. It becomes so overwhelming with so little structure it's hard to even care enough to read on.

* The dialog is a mess, especially early in the book. Most writers would put clues in the dialog to help with exposition. Unfortunately, I don't think Erikson even knows what exposition means. At many points it just sounds like the characters are speaking nonsense. It's not entirely because you don't know anything about the topic of the conversation, but also because their dialog lacks subjects and is often jolting and unnatural.

* Character development is okay, but very abstract. You get to know a new friend by seeing what they do and say, right? This is also the best method for getting to know characters because it aligns with our real-life meetings. In the book almost everything happens in characters heads, and you don't get to visualize a lot of what they say or do. They also talk to themselves quite a lot. This leaves you with a sense of what they think, but not really much in the way of how they act with other people. It's told to you, not shown. This may have actually worked out, because otherwise character development would have been even more incomprehensible dialog.

* There are far, far too many unexplained character intuitions. Some of these unexplained intuitions are explainable by the story, but most are lazy shortcuts for foreshadowing and having characters think things a normal person wouldn't.

>>17842127

* The book desperately needed an editor with some pull. I don't know what happened here, but it really read like a self-published book from a first-time author with dreams well beyond his abilities. An editor should have pulled back and reminded the author we don't know about this civilization or that type of creature, and he should probably make us care about the current cast before adding on more. You want to craft a world, fine, but take some time to explain it rather than just assuming we've read (or want to read) your academic thesis on Malazan history.

* Everything stops reading like nonsense about halfway through. I can't imagine many people make it that far. You start to focus in on some characters and get a sense for what they want to accomplish through their plans. The "how" turns out to be excessively convuluted and poorly-explained, but you don't realize that until you think back after finishing and realize their plans were actually just the plot outline made manifest.

* The book all builds to the final climax, but the final climax is a series of loosely-related stories. Rather than ending in a big climax, then, there are an awkward series of resolutions as bad guys 1 through 4 all meet with their just ends ... in totally different scenes to wrap up totally different character stories.

* While introducing new side-stories and mysteries can maintain a sense of mystery, doing it endlessly and to resolve stories rather than begin them is frustrating for the reader. You don't even care to think ahead by the end. Will the story be resolved according to your clever interpretation of prophecy with our protagonist's cunning? Nah, there will just be some new entity or plot device that is totally unforeseeable. Probably some new entity appearing or falling from the sky.

* Minor spoilers here, but nothing that will ruin the book. Even at the VERY END of the book, Erikson is introducing new characters, creatures, and items. The demise of what you thought might be the most powerful villain and tyrant happens in a place that isn't even clear, with new rules (you can't be enslaved if X), and at the hands of a new being that hasn't even been hinted at. It honestly felt like a child was telling the story. "But then then there's this other guy, and he's even more powerful, and he beats the bad guy."

>>17842140
* My saddest criticism is that character motivations don't really move the story along. It's what writers call "and then" storytelling. Characters have plans, but they don't really make sense in light of what they want and know. Almost no one is acting like a normal human with normal human motivations, which makes them all harder to relate to. "Why was she doing that?" is an unanswerable question for a main viewpoint character at the very end of the book, and she's not alone in that respect.

Ultimately book 1 was exceptionally ambitious with lots of interesting ideas, but the author lacked the skill to pull it together into an interesting story.

How, then, could I possibly say Erikson is a good writer? He writes each paragraph well. Being good at putting words together is not the same thing as being a good storyteller. Erikson is like a runner with excellent form and top-notch ability who will never win a race because he's running all over the stadium looking at new shiny objects. It limps along, but only because he can manage the next step. It feels like it's about to collapse at any moment, and in the end it sort of stumbles to a halt and then simply ends.

Surprisingly, I do plan to read book 2. I've been told it gets much better and that I "just have to get through" book 1. It was so frustrating I can't imagine a world where the quality of story changes dramatically. I will give it a shot, but I'm putting it down unless there's significant improvement.

>>17842127
>>17842140
>>17842146
How did it last so long with shit like that? The series should have been axed a long time ago.

>>17842154
For the same reason LitRPG's get churned out by the boatload. There's a huge demographic of "people" who don't want to read something good, they just want to whack off to some convoluted power fantasy nonsense with lots of rape.

>>17842014
Ignore that dude. Start reading Gardens of the Moon and if you hate it drop the series. The first book is a bit of a slog sometimes because the series doesn't hold your hand by explaining every new word, name, or concept it introduces. But, if you can get through the first book you'll probably enjoy the series. He is right that the cast of characters is pretty massive, though. Personally I found almost all of them to be pretty memorable and more than a few of them have fairly emotionally moving storyline, including many of those MUHREENS OOH RAH.

In TDtCB, during the scene where Kellhus meets the great names in the Andiamine heights, it flashes back to his training with the Pragma. During the training, he stares at the mountain and is filled with awe, comparing its curves to that of a beautiful woman. How would he have known what a beautiful woman looks like?

>>17840126
filtered

>>17842356
Why does Kellhus think that the best way to harden people is to fuck them in the ass? Why does his father thinks the same way and goes around assfucking teenage barbarian males? Really makes you think about Dunyain methods.

>>17842034
He is seething tranny ignore him

>>17842381
But think about. When would Kellhus have seen a beautiful woman in Ishual?

>>17842369
its impossible to be filtered by something with no depth

>>17842381
Maybe kellhus was jerking it to a whale mom. And he did it to shatter proyas’s faith. His dad did it because cnaiur is gay as fuck.

>>17840399
I'm not a cuck.

>>17841756
You think the ones reeing about the purity of the board are libtards?
He's not a lib, but you're definitely the tard.

>>17842356
Genetic memory. Curves are sexy ooga booga.

>>17842127
>>17842140
If the second book fucking rules you have to come in and tell us, okay?

How do you predict the end of asoiaf?

Will the others be exposed as simply radiation mutated beings from the long night nuclear war and we learn a lesson in not being xenophobic againat the others

Do you watch preston jacobs

>>17842727
You already asked this. Get some new questions please.

>>17842727
terrible cosplay, messy raccoon eyes are the easiest part and it's not even done properly
4/10

>>17840971

Have you read the Subterrrene series? You should check it out. TC McCarthy was ' former CIA weapons expert, T.C. is a recognized authority on the impact of technology on military strategy and is a regular speaker at USSOCOM (US Special Operations Command) and other commands on future warfare topics'

In this series.. due to drone technology.. warfare has moved underground and they use elaborate tunneling methods, combined with D.U.M.B.S. super interesting take on warfare.. makes you wonder how much tunelling goes on now.. theres also an old movie along these lines where China tunells under USA, amd attacks.

>>17841756
>>17840471

Any fantasy that feels heroic or epic in scope, inspired by Hindu mythology?

>>17843360
Not sure if it really fits the heroic fantasy feel you're looking for, but everything David Ashura writes takes inspiration from Hindu folklore.

>>17843372
Thanks.

>>17843360
The Elder Scrolls
Unironically.

>>17843486
Makes sense. That world is inspired by Glorantha in large part, right? And Glorantha in turn draws on lots of mythology, including a lot of Near Eastern stuff.

>>17842268
>Gardens of the Moon
It's especially notorious because it's the sort of first book in a series that makes way more sense on re-read. Not to mention the number of callbacks and laying down the foundations is insane.

>>17840763
I only remember liking the first book. The other two just dropped in quality.

>>17842573
replying same low IQ post to different anons make you sound like a retard with no arguments. As I said you got filtered my low IQ gremlin friend.

>>17843772
it is impossible to be filtered by an anon with no depth

>>17842381
I always thought Moenghus let Cnaiur fuck him in the ass, not the other way around. I wonder if he also fucked Cnaiur's mom in the ass or was it just the pusi.
Plenty of assfucking to go around either way.

>>17843797
but it's clearly possible if we take you as an example

>>17843799
>no qualia

>>17843821
stop posting about yourself

>>17843798
Cnaiur obviously bottomed for moe, but then the ensuing betrayal made him swear off bottoming.

>>17843115
Drones and tunneling are boomer-tier, /x/-tier low hanging fruit. Yes, future kinetic wars will be different from past kinetic wars.

WWIII started as an information and financial war. We have been engaged in WWIII since the moment the Soviet Union fell, and we haven't even realized it. We're currently losing very badly, because transnational corporatist oligarchs are both witting and unwitting traitors to the global hegemony, which has its central locus in China.

WWIII has not yet gone kinetic. If it goes kinetic, we're in really bad shape. We'd basically be in the same position as the Nazis -- under-industrialized compared to our foe, and relying upon superior technology. It didn't work for them, and it won't work for us. It all starts with the clandestine war.

Read Unrestricted Warfare. It's not /lit/ -- its nonfiction. It's literally a "how to conquer America without firing a single bullet" manual written by officers in the Chinese military.

>>17843923
*oligarchs are traitors to the West and slaves to the global hegemony

>>17843923

Just finished Prince of Nothing. It's filled with literal cucks and faggots, don't understand how it makes the normies seethe.

>>17843997
normies have been radicalised

Why aren't you reading my book, anons?

>>17843997
Women and normies can’t handle Esmenet

>>17844067
It's not even out yet

Is Discworld worth reading or is it reddit-core? I'm a third of the way through Guards Guards and I think I hate it.

>>17844318
it may or may not be worth reading, it's literally the 2nd most reddit thing ever though, number one being hitchhikers guide

>>17844328
only if you means books-only

>>17844318
it's very good but conditionally, for the specific satire (ie theatre, post office, police states) you have to care and/or know about those things in order to enjoy the book. that should be obvious but it's not really part of the blurb.
some of the books are better than others, the ones he writes with death as the viewpoint are pretty good and i always got a kick out of rincewind. it's probably not everyone's cup of tea.

>>17844328
hitchhikers guide is brilliant mate, not reddit at all.

>>17844575
>hitchhikers guide is brilliant mate, not reddit at all.
its reddit because of how much that site fellates it, not anything to do with its actual quality

>>17844575
>hitchhikers guide is brilliant mate, not reddit at all.
To me Hitchhikers always tried to be too zany and random without much behind it, it always felt reddity even before reddit even existed. Discworld is the same type of zany but done right, and less overbearing.

>>17844575
reddit doesn't mean bad perse

>>17844664
>>17844624
thanks for the clarification, in my life the context of 'reddit' means 'cancerous, normies and circlejerks' so i tend to interpret it as meaning a thing is shit.

>>17844664
also, inb4
>WELL WHY ARE YOU SAYING REDDIT LIKE ITS A BAD THING
its good to comment that something feels very reddit precisely because if you have disdain for reddit then you're not going to enjoy it
simple as

>Breathe, girl!

lit: Malazan is the best thing ever! It’s fucking autistic and epic as fuck and the best epic fantasy besides Tolkien!
>Malazan finally reaches some commercial success and recognization outside of 4chan
lit: Fuck Malazan! Fucking terribly written SJW garbage!

Fucking contrarians. I’m just getting into GOTM so I’m not convinced who is right in this beef but it seems great so far.

>>17845682
>Malazan finally reaches some commercial success and recognization outside of 4chan

What happened? also its been popular on reddit since like 2015 at least.

gotm is usally thought as worst book so if you like it great, book 2 is overrated cos MUH HECKIN DOGARINOS, book 4 and 5 are the best, 8-10 suck

First for Bakker

>>17845750
Booktuvers happened.a

>The Sun beat them like a loving father. Shining bright while crowing in his tremulous voice, singing of toil. Raking their backs with heat and forcing them to shed droplets of sweat readily as blood.

>It would be a long while before Mother Moon could come to soothe with lullabies intersected by feverish apology. Promises to protect dashed as she cringed at the sound of the patriarch singing over the horizon again. Overjoyed to exact another day's backbreaking toll.

I know it's not a fantasy passage in particular, but do I have hope as a writer guys. I don't want to be a big smart literary writer just a hairy fantasy hack who lives in my shed churning out escapist adventures.

>>17846515
That's shit. if it's a character ineer monologue, the character is pretty broken and would be annoying to follow for more than a chapter at a time. It's flowery and full of stupid metaphor, like a teenage who just discovered bad poetry. If it's omniscient narrator, just throw your book on the trash and save the reader the trouble.

>>17846515
readily as blood reads weirdly, should maybe be as readily as blood, idk reword it, not sure if you know what tremulous means;.

you are trying to hard I can tell you that much, it's not bad at all.


having >intersected by feverish apology >dashed as she cringed >exact another days blah blah

it's just not needed to use those words, in the words of hemingway

>“Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use.”

>>17846747
first sentence is bakkeresque desu

>>17846784
Those are ten-dollar words?

>>17846801
5 dollar words, ur clearly overdoing it.

>>17846784
>it's just not needed to use those words
Its not needed to do anything at all. Let the man develop his style, maybe something great will come out of it, just because Hemingway did it that way it doesnt meant everyone should. Faulkner's style worked for Faulkner.

>>17846784
If the only school writers subscribed to was Hemingway, we'd only have a bunch of Sandersons in fantasy.

>>17846846
anon is going way over budget, same reason you don't spam exclamation marks everywhere

>>17846882
are you ESL or something? The only big words he uses are like
tremulous and intersected

I just want to write capeshit

>>17846846
Sanderson is a bad writer though? Hemingway isn't, however. I think most writers try to go for the same kind of minimalism that Hemingway has, and they fail completely.

>>17846902
Minimalism does no good in fantasy, at least in my opinion. There's so much you have to convey. The extra groundwork of scene-setting is especially monotonous.

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, Madeleine L'Engle is the greatest sci-fi fantasy author of all time.
I'll dig out my copy of many waters and transcribe the nephhilim birth scene later. It formed the foundations of both my tastes in literature and in porn.

>talking about anything other than BAKKER
yep gonna have to SHUT THIS thread down.
we've been over this.
there is and only will be BAKKER.
this is a BAKKER thread on BAKKER.
no other "scifi" counts after BAKKER.
so have you read your BAKKER today?

>>17846890
listen "totally not the faggot" you are writing in an awkward autistic manner and it doesn't flow, ur clearly up ur own and jacking urself off which is why you posted 2 bits you are clearly very proud of, nobody wants to read a whole story written like this.

>>17846937
yes, bakker is the only author who has used shriven and chiascuro

>>17846924
I agree, minimalism worked so well for Hemingway because his stories take place in a very contemporary modern setting where you're already familiar with how everything is supposed to look; if he says "Motorcar" we kind of automatically have the idea of a 1930s-1950s style car in our heads, if that makes sense. On the other hand, in fantasy, we don't have that kind of familiarity with the world and how things look inside of that world, so we are forced to use more descriptive language. I think, in this case, Faulker is a better write to emulate prose-wise, because his flowery, descriptive, verbose style lends itself very well to fantasy, in my opinion. This doesn't mean that minimalism or simplicity of prose is bad, we just don't have the luxury of not describing everything to the reader. I personally am very much inspired by both Faulker and McCarthy and I try to emulate them with my prose (for better or worse)

>>17846969
for 90% of writers a simpler and less pretentious style will be more effective, any retard with a thesaurus can write wordy shit but it's much harder to execute properly

it's how you end up with drivel like this

>She, Summer, is the scent of fireflies and fresh cut grass. She is the clacking of bicycle spokes, the hum of distant lawnmower engines, the sound of cicadas whirring, and of swaying trees in the gentle breeze. He watches from afar her blue eyes laugh, they lined religiously with heavy mascara that represent the Earth ablaze and the ashes from which all will begin anew.

She sits on a blanket beneath a tree with her friends, on a stark green hill overlooking a valley in resplendent superbloom of goldenrod, sage, poppies, and blue violets. Glancing upward over her shoulder at him there miles away, the setting sun catches her sharply layered platinum blonde hair, and she smiles her imperceptible smile. Standing to wave, her lithe body sways as she calls out to him, "Frank!", her voice the only sound in the world.

He does not respond, as he knows this to be merely a cold comfort, a dream. The movements of she and her friends are part of a cruel pantomime, and this vista is merely a pastiche of memories from different days.

>>17840161
>skilled lover of women

>>17846928
I love the time travel unicorn one. Never understood why only a wrinkle in time got real love

>>17840161
he is LITERALLY a cuck

>>17846997
Yes, but have you ever seen Faulkner write something that blatant? Compare this scene from Faulkner's Barn Burning:
>Presently he could see the grove of oaks and cedars and the other flowering trees and shrubs where the house would be, though not the house yet. They walked beside a fence massed with honeysuckle and Cherokee roses and came to a gate swinging open between two brick pillars, and now, beyond a sweep of drive, he saw the house for the first time and at that instant he forgot his father and the terror and despair both, and even when he remembered his father again (who had not stopped) the terror and despair did not return. Because, for all the twelve movings, they had sojourned until now in a poor country, a land of small farms and fields and houses, and he had never seen a house like this before.

to this scene written by D.M Cornish, a modern fantasy/YA author:
>The lack of proper way-posts, coach-hosts or any such thing to change teams forced the lenterman to halt often to rest his horses along this stretch named the Lang Plat. Though these were only the briefest pauses possible to serve the contrary demands of both speed and equine wind, it was not until very late in the day that they achieved the intersection of the Lang Plat and the Conduit Limus–the Ichor Road it was commonly called, its southern arm running audaciously–and largely unused – through the threats and horrors of the Ichormeer. A long earthen dyke ran upon the western flank of the Ichor Road, reaching north and south as far as could be seen. Economous had some recollection of receiving instruction at the athy of a battle being fought here during the early days of the Sulk’s full founding, though between whom and over what he could not now bring to mind.

Both are "purple" and wordy, in a sense, but Faulkner's passage flows very well and doesn't use that many "ten dollar words," while the second author is trying to be elegant and literary, but the result is something that is painful to read. When I say that fantasy authors should try to emulate Faulkner's style, I don't mean that they should start using bigger words, I mean that they should really look at how he manages to be both very verbose and very readable, how his passages flow easily but are still very wordy, if that makes sense

>>17847178
There are no ten dollar words in either of those sentences. They're easy for a layman to understand.

>>17847187
soujourned is the only one

>Skies are upended, poured as milk into the tar of night. Cities become pits of fire. The last of the wicked stand with the last of the righteous, lamenting the same woe. One Hundred and Forty-Four Thousand, they shall be called, for this is their tally, the very number of doom.

>>17843923
Military officers write shit all the time. We have papers on theoretical military operations in Russia and China. They are literally military academicians whose purpose is to produce papers for military journals.

>>17842576
>he did it to shatter proyas’s faith
But why?

>>17847402
This is the canon ending as Bakker intended. We do not need The No God. TUC definitively concludes the series with the Consult triumphant, and as the reader we see no more because their world is now cutoff from the outside.

>>17847732
Because he had to make realist decisions to see the ordeal through to golgotterath, and proyas couldn’t do that as a fanatical believer.

So Jaime and Cersei are without a doubt the Mad King's kids giving how many twins run rampant in the Targ family compared to the Lannisters? I like it especially since it gives more depth to Tywin's last words about how Tyrion isn't his son even though he was his only legit child

>>17846515
Horrid

>>17847178
None of those passages are "purple" in style. There's no unnecessary adverbs and pedantic turn of phrases compared to
>>17846515
Who sounds like he is trying to suck jerk himself off with his feet while doing a handstand.

>>17846515
Here's the thing which nobody is telling you: nobody can tell you if you're a good writer based on two lines of text. I can tell you that you're a bad writer based on those two lines but that is beside the point. You're a good writer when you're a good storycrafter, not when you can arrange a hundred or so words in a pleasing order. Crafting the kind of story that can justify for itself the creation, in the mind of its reader, of the fantasy world which it inhabits is something that is not easy but it is a skill which can be developed. Read and study until you understand this and then write short stories of any sort be it fanfic or erotica and then read more and fail more until you can write something longer that is coherent in its theme and cohesive in the flow of its scenes. Then come back and you will tell us that you are a good writer when you know it, because nobody who means what they say will ever tell you that you are.

>>17848392
>>17848264
>>17848225
I'm actually not hurt by the responses anons. I was just genuinely curious. I am actually a published author, not that I think I'm very good of yet.

>>17847724
Unrestricted Warfare is the seminole book on modern war. It's a paradigm shift, and we see it playing out in real time. Either get with the program or don't, but leave your sophistry behind regardless of your choice.

>>17846928
>>17847021
Wrinkle in Time really was fantastic though

>>17848642
*seminal
but I'm sure the seminole would give almost anything to have those tactics as their own

>>17848642
>the seminole
Didn't know Florida Indians were writing military sci-fi for paranoid boomers, nice.

The last two chapters of The Great Ordeal were a fucking fever dream.
Is TUC even weirder?

>>17848642
It's no different than RMA and all the other random pieces published in military journals. Also telling others to leave behind their sophistry while hiding behind yours is facetious.

>>17848679
yes

>>17848704
In what way?

>>17848704
based

>>17842014
I would see it mentioned all the time too and finally read the series a few years ago. It's easily the best series I've read. It's so memorable and I think about it all the time. Gardens of the moon is decent, it was originally intended to be a movie script but it's an OK introduction. Deadhouse Gates is where shit gets real, I can't imagine reading it and not still think about it when you're done. And it goes on from there Memories of Ice, House of Chains... Most of the criticism is accurate, which could be said for a lot of series. I'm still chasing the high I got when I first read the series.

>>17848471
I wasn't trying to hurt you, general tone around here is being a cunt, sorry for that. The passage you posted is terribly overwrought imo, unless both Sun and Moon are living entities.

>>17848471
>I am actually a published author
I am going to make it after all.

>>17848471
*self-published
No doubt

>>17848970
What's wrong with being self-published.

>>17849066
Heh

>>17849066
Nothing. Just a bunch of people simping over a dying industry

SEETHE
DILATE
lmfao

>>17838371
Honestly I tried reading Neuromancer like 5 years ago and got put off when in the first 2 pages it went on a paragraph about a shuriken. Tried it again and I finished it in a day, past me was dumb as fuck, the world oozes character. It deserves the status it has.

>>17849213
I heard its a slog.

>>17837820
but grumpy was clearly one of the worst shitcoins. perhaps you just have bad taste.

>>17849213
>Neuromancer
Seriously more about the concepts than the actual novel itself.

>>17849240
You got filtered?

>>17849243
Maybe, it wasn't an enjoyable read for it's prose.

>>17849246
Who cares about the prose?

>>17837820
So this is the power of bakkercord...

>>17849175
Where's this from?

>>17838371
>>Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

You guys know any good websites for webnovels? Royal road is one, but any other noteworthy?

>>17849320
Check Wordpress or online novels.

>>17849327
How do I seperate the poorly made novels from the good ones.

>>17849340
You won’t. You have to read through them to see which ones are good and bad.

>>17849350
>You have to read through them to see which ones are good and bad.
Do you have at least some good recommendations?

>>17849352
Worm. It’s a good webnovel. Don’t let the haters tell you otherwise.

>>17849175
Jesus, I would have dropped that book in a second.

>>17846937
Bakker is shit and you know it.

>>17842727
>How do you predict the end of asoiaf?
There's no ending.

>>17840161
He knows what’s sells.

>>17841700
make me

>>17840367
LOTR

>>17840784
>edgelord but kind of an okay guy overall.
Jesus. Why is this archetype common?

>>17840801
Seems a bit generous don’t you think.

>>17844067
I'll wait for the reviews.

>>17849393
Ignore him, anon.

>>17837771
>Book of the New Sun
Is this shit any good?

>>17840763
He was molested? I thought his female friend was molested.

>>17847178
Holy shit, read more books.

>>17847724
>We have papers on theoretical military operations in Russia and China. They are literally military academicians whose purpose is to produce papers for military journals.
Don't forget we have military doctrine on when aliens and zombies attack.

>>17847747
Reads like shit. How do people put up with it.

>>17841247
Maybe it’s for a potential sequel?

>>17849480
That's because the government has been hiding the interstellar fleet of alien zombies from us since they crashed in New Mexico in 1951, and they're the one who are behind the globohomo UN agenda 21. They've been fighting subterranean kinetic and crypto-political information wars against the Chinese puppet AI hivemind ever since, but of course a jew libshit soros shill like you wouldn't know about it.

>>17841382
I know what you mean, once I started reading Spin, I found I couldn't put it down. Two things pulled me along as I read. First, a desire to understand what the Spin was and the motivations for putting it in place. Second, the need to see how the two story-lines, one present and the other future, come together. In the end, I was fairly satisfied with the explanation of the Spin itself, less so with the not-so-climactic ending.

And don't even get me started on the characters as one of my motivators. That's because I didn't find them terribly compelling. Science fiction is well known for putting characters after the science and technology, and Spin unfortunately conforms to this stereotype. There's hardly a real human being among them, each being fairly one-dimensional and unemotional. Given the time span of the story, it's hard to believe that none of the characters ever strays from the slot they've been placed in. The celibate genius is the vessel through which we learn about the science and technology of the Spin. The emotionally lost sister embodies the everyman's fear of the Spin, seeking solace in faith. The power-broker father and alcoholic mother provide a justification for the emotionless, single-minded nature of the main characters, but make them no less unsatisfying. And the family friend provides the eyes through which we follow them all, hardly seeming to have a will or desire of his own, except for a weak romantic connection with the sister.

I had hoped that in the end, when the story-lines came together, there would be the passion of long-unrequited love, the excitement of new exploration and discovery, and some deeper sense of meaning given to all the events that had unfolded. Alas, these hopes were dashed when I got to the last page. I felt as if the book had been cut short, ending before it was meant to.

>>17849505
Any proof to back this up?

>>17849512
He’s bullshiting, he always does this.

>>17837792
That's awfully specific, but the three body problem has at least a few of those factors.

>>17849525
>but the three body problem has at least a few of those factors.
In what way?

>>17837820
Jesus, is this a new copy pasta?

>>17837796
I get tired of this image so much. Stop posting it.

New thread.
>>17849542

>>17837820
Bakkerbro here, I bought some $GRUMPY too (1k) and lost bigly. I'm glad my mom dissuaded me from buying more, though I admit I was pretty mad at the time and did unspeakable things to myself and the TV remote control (mock sodomy, mainly).

>>17849432
>>17849393
dilate each other