/lit/ - Literature

>>17835960

>>17835960
I believe science is superior to any religion but I also believe science falls short to capture the whole picture of the truth

>>17835960
DSM-5

>>17835969
Based

Lukewarm take

>>17835960
Your computer works praying doesn't

Because science produces tangible results and doesn't demand blind faithful obeisance.

It does feel like we're turning the corner on the Unshakable Faith in Science, though. Zoomers seem to see through a lot of its false truths. "We sent a car into space! We have rovers on Mars! We've eliminated some of the deadliest diseases in history!"

Yeah cool but the ice caps are still melting and there are Nazis in the government so maybe step away from the laboratories for a minute and make some sack lunches for the homeless folks outside your building. Being able to detect black holes colliding on the other side of the universe isn't going to do shit to get food in people's bellies.

>>17835989
The problem is, many of these so-called scientists are politically driven and try to promote their agendas. Like, why even do pic related in the first place? Sure, science gives us many technological advancements, but science is also wrong all the time. It’s naive to never question science and take everything white lab coats have to say at face value.

>>17835989
>Yeah cool but the ice caps are still melting and there are Nazis in the government so maybe step away from the laboratories for a minute and make some sack lunches for the homeless folks outside your building.

Lots of problems with this once sentence. The caps have melted before, and froze before, and now they're melting again.

Which "Nazis in the government" are you referring to? Do you see the Nazis in the room with you now, Anon? What are they doing?

Homeless people are hurt by the help they receive. It only allows them to continue their homeless existence one day more rather than coaxing them pull themselves out of it.

>>17836014

In fairness the Daily Mail isn't exactly the exemplar of journalistic integrity. It's another Murdoch rag that exists to keep the working classes disinformed, scared, and stupid.

>>17836021
Climate denying tripfag trolls get ignored

>>17835960
The products of science are a lot more obvious than the products of religion.

>>17836049
>Climate denying tripfag trolls get ignored

He’s not denying climate change, you utter retard. Your post basically encapsulates the mind of the average science worshipping NPC cog.

>>17836061
The Big Bang Theory was literally devised by a Belgium Catholic priest

>>17835960
i don't know of any books but this youtube video sums it up for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgk8UdV7GQ0

>>17836072
That does not make it a product of religion, it's quite besides the point.

>>17836084
The point is, to think science and religion are incompatible is retarded.

Another thread full of insecure humanities students whining about STEM.

>>17836091
I never said or implied that they were incompatible.

>>17836091
The post to which you replied didn't make that claim, so are you perhaps tilting at strawmen?

>>17836101

people need to read Feyerabend

>>17836094
Here’s your science.

>>17836094
I think pretty much all of the criticism is leveled at the "S", I haven't seen anyone complaining about technology, engineering or mathematics (humanities majors should appreciate mathematics greatly).

>>17836063

>the ice caps melt and refreeze all the time bro

Next he'll be talking about how temperature fluctuations have been noted in the past while expertly glossing over the fact that these changes are being accelerated by human activity. Then there are charts about variations from a mean average temperature that only dates back to the Industrial Revolution for no reason. The sentence he posted very strongly implies that he does not believe climate change to be real, or something cyclical that occurs entirely outside the realm of human activity.

And given the patronizing way in which he addressed the other two topics of that sentence, he's clearly not acting in good faith. Not my fault you're willfully incapable of gleaning subtext.

>>17835960
It's precisely because they don't know anything about science. They have no idea how anything they use everyday actually works.

>>17836119
>I haven't seen anyone complaining about technology
What?
In all seriousness, lumping all four fields into a single acronym is stupid. There's no reason to use a marketing term invented for stupid primary school teachers in underperforming districts when you could just say "science" or "math" instead.

>>17836173
In this thread.

>>17835989
>there are Nazis in the government
Name one German national socialist or neo-nazi in the government right now.

>>17836143
Okay, maybe the scientists are right about climate change. But why are we supposed to listen to them about the measures we should take to prevent climate change (or anything akin to that, like covid lockdowns) when they are not even elected officials? Why should we blindly trust what scientists tell us to do?

>>17836182

Did I say German national socialist?

I thought people on /lit/ were literate.

>>17836204
>Nazi = German national socialist

Yes, you literally did say that, based retarded zoomer.

>>17836200

Because unlike elected officials, people in the sciences spend decades in their fields dedicated to very specific issues such as infectious disease control or mitigating rising sea levels and their thousands of hours of tangible experience and expertise make them more trustworthy than whichever sociopath's campaign came up with the catchier election slogan.

I'm not calling for "blindly trust[ing] what scientists tell us to do." State-sponsored think tanks are full of well-respected industry professionals willing to sell away their integrity for a beach house in Montauk. But I don't think it's logical or healthy to assume that ALL scientists are operating with ulterior political motives. There's a difference between educated skepticism and aggressive willful ignorance.

>>17836218

>national socialism can't be a thing, we beat Germany eighty years ago!

Even for a troll this is really fucking weak

>>17835987
You are niggerlicious

>>17835960
> Only millennials can be insufferable SCIENCE YEAH types.

>>17836302
people under 40, yeah.

>>17835989
>>17836269
I bet you believe there is currently widespread systemic racism and ACAB. Zoomers have a short sighted, incomplete view of the world, but they act like they're so certain they know what they're talking about, probably because they don't think for themselves, and get their opinions and beliefs from discord communities and YouTubers that they use as surrogate friends, and a desperate need to be a part of something greater than themselves, such as Black Lives Matter.

>>17836094
This.

>>17836366

Cool projecting bro. Just curious, where does Mr. Far Sighted Complete View of the World get his opinions and beliefs from?

>>17836366
T. Gets his worldview from /pol/

>>17835960
>iPhone filename
>absolutely abhorrent post
Every time

>>17836014
>Twitter screencap
>/pol/shit
>iPhone
Is this the holy trinity of garbage underage?

>>17836424
it's not going to get better, anon

>>17835989
I think America's cucking to Israel in order to war against Iran & Syria is far worse than so-called white nationalist Nazis.
Are you Jewish by any chance?

>>17836439

I can't begin to imagine why you would think you're entitled to an answer to that question.

The farther a field of "science" gets from physics the worse it is, in general. Biological sciences are largely garbage. Just grade some of their papers and you will come to realize this.

>>17836410
When it comes to my beliefs, I read the important Western and Eastern philosophers and study the historical foundations of how we got to be where we are, it's an ongoing process. The difference is, I'm aware of how much I don't know, and I don't go around making dumb claims like there are Nazis in government.

They're taught to question religion because that's what helps the managerial class rule them. Devout Catholics are hard to enslave with their rejection of materialism and liberalism. They're not good consumers.

>>17836419
And no. Stop thinking in black and white.

>>17835989
Science can't teach you how to live a good life, and what could be more tangible than that?

>>17836513

No you limit your dumb claims to shit like "Police are our friends, actually" and "people are racist, systems aren't"

>>17835960
I wish non-natural sciences weren't equated to the natural sciences.

>>17835960
They don't question "religion" they question Christianity, as it's on its way out among the elite. They believe in postwar egalitarianism quite strongly though, in spite of basically every major religion being on a more sound scientific footing.

>>17835989
>Because science produces tangible results and doesn't demand blind faithful obeisance.
The average person, who does not perform scientific experiments himself, must still believe what scientists are telling him is true. It is simply a reconfiguration of the mind from religious myth to scientific myth. These days we are seeing a reversal of this with mass distrust and disbelief in science. In the cult of scientism there is also a return to the mental configuration of religious myth, though the content is still nominally scientific. These events presage a return to religion in the future.

>>17835960
Simple, science has spurred the creation of our fantastical machines and conveniences while Christianity brought about no such technological advance. The practicality of empiricism is plainly obvious, while religion has made no such obvious progress.

>>17836582
>must still believe what scientists are telling him is true

They know their cars run and the lights come on in their homes. If witch doctor A says he put a curse on witch doctor B and then witch doctor B throws a fireball at witch doctor A who are you going to believe?

>>17836537
Do you want to carry guns around all the time? that's your only working alternative to cops if you live somewhere with any criminals at all. I personally can see the appeal.

As for systemic isms, I notice you guys have a hard time explaining what exactly the concrete discrimination consists of, in a systemic sense. The one clearly systemic example of discrimination is AA quotas, which you would I'm guessing not consider real discrimination.

>>17836601
I speak of the teleology of scientism, in atomism, astronomy, physics, things the average person cannot possibly know, but they trust that scientists are not lying about.

>>17836615
Egalitarians view all disparities in group outcomes as evidence of systemic discrimination. At least one of scientific racism or systemic racism must be the cause of these disparities. Since it is assumed that the former is false, the latter must be true.

>>17836630
They trust them because the scientists produce things that work

>>17836584
t. muggle

>>17836630
should I trust:
guy who says he follows in the tradition of testing questions about the world via experimentation, and is responsible for my iphone working? Who is responsible for antibiotics? Who is responsible for clean cold and hot running water?
or should i trust the guy who says all the knowledge is in this ancient text, written during a time of great material poverty?

>>17836537
You're putting words in my mouth, going "so what you're saying is... (the belief of my perceived political enemy)" same as the other Anon who said I must get my worldview from /pol/. The world is nuanced. Police are capable of being a force for good and more often than not, they uphold the law in a necessary way, yes there is corruption and yes there are racist, trigger happy cops that should be dealt with the full force of the law instead of the taps on the wrist they too often get, but to paint all police as bastards is pure ideological nonsense. Black Americans have a tragic history steeped in racism, but things were improving and were almost in a pretty good place until wokeness helped to put race relations back 70 years and made sure everyone focused on race above all else. /pol/ is just as guilty if not more so, but the woke response is not the answer.

>>17836470
Thanks for answering my question, Shlomo.

>>17836660
But they don't know exactly how a car or a lightbulb works. Just like a religious person doesn't know how a blessing works. It was the magic of the "scientist" or "priest". The content of the miracle is utterly irrelevant.
>>17836676
Why do you think faux-preachers like Jordan Peterson are so popular now? The masses are growing tired of the materialism of science, but still possess a scientific mentality, and so look to those who transmit old texts in a scientific framework. This is exactly what JBP is doing and why he is relevant to the future. It won't be long before real religious preachers return.

>>17836695
But blessings don't work. Cars and lightbulbs do. That is why people doubt religion and not science.

>>17836701
People think what they want to think. Blessings work to those who are religious.

>>17836708
And cars work for people who don't believe in science.

>>17836719
That is irrelevant. For something to have meaning to a person they must first find meaning in it. To a primitive a crack of lightning would appear just as mystical as the most advanced technological device. To a person who has no idea how a car works, the car "just works", it appears as some mysterious mystical thing. Science is based on rational inquiry; in a way the scientific mindset defeats itself as the field of science expands and it becomes impossible for one person to know the ins and outs of every technological item. Man becomes lost in the breadth of his own knowledge, which is exactly where the religious mindset returns to fill the vacuum.

>>17836766
So what does religion have that "just works"?

>>17836678

If you're the same anon who posted >>17836366
then it's pretty rich for you to complain about someone else putting words in your mouth, considering I hadn't said a thing about BLM, systemic racism, or police brutality.

Entertaining your post since it seems to be earnest if not in good faith, yes the world is nuanced. But people aren't calling police bastards out of thin air. They're calling back on centuries of documented brutality by police (agents of the state) against those who deviate from the strictures of the ruling party (the "law"). Who writes these laws? What purpose do these laws serve, and how easily can they be wielded as weapons against dissidents? What force should they be allowed to use in pursuit of upholding "The Law?" There is an adage that "The Law" separates people into two groups: those it protects but does not bind, and those it binds but does not protect. Which people tend to be in which group? And which group gets to then write or re-write The Law?

If you're still reading and game, I'd like an expansion on your reference to "wokeness" and what that means, to you. As far as I have been able to discern, to be "woke" is simply to be aware of the systems of power that exist, the way in which they wield/maintain that power, and at whose expense that power is maintained. Race comes into play because it's impossible to discuss the structural insufficiencies of American government without addressing the fact that our nation was built--and currently runs--on indentured servitude, which for centuries came in the form of non-white slaves.

Happy to talk further, for a little bit.

>>17835960
Science = planes flying in the air and the computers you're typing on
God = ??????

>>17835989
>Because science produces tangible results and doesn't demand blind faithful obeisance.
what tangible result did you provide thru science?
You dont rely on hearsay, right? you proved yourself that the earth is not flat and that genes exist right?

>>17836615

>I notice you guys have a hard time explaining what exactly the concrete discrimination consists of, in a systemic sense.

I mean, there are entire sections of any self-respecting library or bookstore addressing this exact issue. Slave labor in the prison-industrial complex, Jim Crow laws, percentages at which minorities get arrested for non-violent crimes compared to white people, redlining, gerrymandering of congressional districts along racial and class lines, the list is eye-wateringly long.

>>17835983
Milquetoast rebuttal

>>17836829
>>Science = planes flying in the air and the computers you're typing on
yeah, weird how they break apart all the fucking time if maintenance is not done in time. Woah nice science you got there.

>>17835969
>>17835987
>>17835989
>>17836119

>>17836690

>Yep, he must be Jewish. I can turn off my brain now. Thank goodness, too, because I almost had to have an independent thought! Happily, though, I can now accuse the random anon of something that will allow him to fit neatly into my sad and laughably reductive worldview.

>>17836829
>>17836766
>>17836676
The problem with science is that scientific realism is completely retarded. Bible level of retardation. According to ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’science’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’ reality is composed by mathematical objects.

Nobody has ever witnessed those immaterial mathematical constructs.

It’s peak atheist midwitism . The main problem with determinism and science is that they use ‘’rules’’ and those ‘’rules’’ 1/ are not subject to determinism 2/ don’t live in the universe 3/ nobody knows where they come from 4/ no atheist is able to explain how a material system, say a particle, is supposed to know how to behave, ie following the immaterial rules during an interaction, before it interacts.
5/all the rules are followed not deterministically, but statistically at best

>>17836849
Bad bait retard

>>17836841
You're using a computer to type that not praying to Jesus to make the words appear in our heads

>>17836864
So how did they big heavy metal object to go in sky?

>>17836841

>If I personally am not capable of doing something, it must be impossible or at least met with skepticism

What a sad and small way to view the world

>>17835960
Science and the Modern World by Whitehead gets at this. Essentially its a misunderstanding that science and religion have to answer the same question. Science should tell you "what" stuff is made of and the mechanics underlying it. Religion, broadly, is a way to comprehend experience and give us a sense of aesthetics and morals, which science tells us nothing about. Religion got mixed with rationalism in the middle ages and has played a reactive role ever since.

It's dumb for a scientist to ignore religion because understanding religion is fundamental to understanding why things are "the way they are". Same goes for the corresponding case with a religious person. Too many people are wholly ignorant of the history of both, and where they lie in this trajectory. Ppo science and religion are compatible while holding "scientist" and conventional "religious" views is a bit of an idiot. But no more so than folks who just do either one.

>>17836498
As a biologist turned physicist, I think I agree. This means there are a lot more low-hanging fruit to pick in biology.
>>17836582
Largely agree. It's more effective at providing material comfort which makes the pill go down with less controversy
>>17836119
There's a reason it's actually called Engin****ing
>>17836245
We should be wary of fashionable things, but it doesn't mean that fashionable things are always bad.

>>17836173
it's a trick that coders and engineers do to associate themselves with actual creative science fields. like how obese women call themselves curvy

>>17836938
>Religion, broadly, is a way to comprehend experience and give us a sense of aesthetics and morals
>understanding religion is fundamental to understanding why things are "the way they are"

If by understanding why things are "the way they are" you mean making something up to agree with your aesthetics and morals. Religion is subjective and science is objective, you don't have to agree with science to be effected by it's results. I can just choose not to believe whatever religious crap people offer.

>>17836820
I'm the anon you tagged. I actually have left wing views, and I understand where you're coming from with the laws being written to serve those in power. But I'm skeptical that if the people calling to abolish the police and laws actually did so, that things would improve. With wokeness, I'm referring to the hard lined beliefs that black people are victims and white people are oppressors. It is a cult like mentality that gets in the way of seeing people as people, not races. I believe it's helping to keep racism alive by perpetuating differences instead of trying to find commonalities and solidarity.

>>17837166
And ironically, I feel wokeness only helps those in power, not the people, black or white. The elite will throw a few black people crumbs by putting them on more corporate boards and managerial positions, but it's all just for show, and it's based on the narcissism of the elite who hold these views and they don't want any meaningful change. They want the appearance of change and a nice scapegoat enemy in "white people".

>>17837166

>With wokeness, I'm referring to the hard lined beliefs that black people are victims and white people are oppressors. It is a cult like mentality that gets in the way of seeing people as people, not races.

But the systems of power--and the people within those systems--see people as races instead of people. And black people have more than 400 years worth of evidence that they are often the victims, at the hands of an establishment ruled almost exclusively by whites.

To be coy, I think the near-endless flood of videos of police impropriety, specifically regarding abuses of power against minorities, does more to perpetuate racism than those who dare to point it out.

And yes, every movement is populated with people who are more interested in tearing institutions down rather than building new ones, but there are also activists and organizers with really solid visions for a post-police future. They're just smart enough to limit their online presence and focus on real-world, material improvement. They get drowned out by the vocalizations of the zealous converts who haven't given serious thought to the platform they claim to support.

The very nature of science is skepticism. Very little is absolute and nothing is taken for granted

>>17837258
>blacks have 400 years of evidence that they are the victims of a white-ruled establishment.
>What if we just created a black-only society so that they don't have to live under white oppression?
>That's segregation you bigot.

>>17835960

>>17835989
>and there are Nazis in the government so maybe step away from the laboratories for a minute and make some sack lunches for the homeless folks outside your building.

https://youtu.be/QT13kk8HDDo

>>17835960
damn people believe what they were raised with, crazy, you sure do need a thick book to understand such a difficult concept

>>17837258
I think when it comes to dealing with police brutality and racial profiling, I do think it's a good thing that people are more aware of injustices that happen, and should. But the images and social media movements can rile up strong emotions in people that make them blind and narrow minded, painting police and white people as our biggest problem and the source of today's ills. Not that we shouldn't address the problems in policing, and take strong measures to fix it, but it's a nebulous enemy that is impossible to be perfectly fixed. There will always be isolated incidents in a country as large as America. To me, the real enemy we should focus more on are the current elite who hold the money and power and control the institutions and important land, they are the greatest source of malaise for black and white people. Meaningful power is concentrated in the hands of a few.

>>17835960
‘Galileos middle finger’

‘Anatomy of the state’

‘Media control’

>>17837288

Literally nobody in this thread suggested that, but keep fighting straw men I guess

>>17836014
It’s called an ‘intelligentsia’

Governments have been doing this for centuries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligentsia?wprov=sfti1

>>17837533
I think it's a legitimate option that should be considered by racial justice activists. Something akin to a millet system would make all parties better off.

>>17837288

>racism exists
>well why don't we just segregate the whole world by race?
>because it's racist
>well I'm out of ideas

Here's your (You)

>>17836366
>Zoomers have a short sighted, incomplete view of the world, but they act like they're so certain they know what they're talking about, probably because they don't think for themselves, and get their opinions and beliefs from discord communities and YouTubers
It was always thus for the youth, with the only changes being where those opinions and beliefs come from. As people get older, the best of them realize the shades of grey and nuance that exist in the world, and how we should recognize and even celebrate the contradictions in people.

The main shift I've seen has been an increasing flattening of society into two camps, with 'high culture' (to the extent that it exists any more) clearly participating in this us/them right-views/wrong-views dichotomy. But then what do you expect when you have a generation whose common shared cultural experience is watching superhero movies? Even in America, that country that used to pride itself on individualists, there is no more room for Whitman's multitudes or Emmerson's nonconformity.

>>17836498
>The farther a field of "science" gets from physics the worse it is
ohhh nononono
https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/physics

>>17836520
>Devout Catholics are hard to enslave with their rejection of materialism and liberalism.

We will never bend the knee.

>>17837632
but it's not about the whole world. it's about Africans in the US. Assuming that claims by racial justice activists are broadly true and that every facet of society is infected with antiblack racism, at what point do you admit that it's easier to create a separate system?

>>17835960
>>17835969
based but many won't get it yet. I said "yet". and yeah I hate zoomers as well but they will grow up too.

>>17835960
because science is a process. questioning is built in to the process. if a scientist makes a statement, it is the job of every other scientist to question that statement.

>>17835969
There is no conflict between science and religion and religion is actually necessary in order to make scientific principles intelligible. The only conflict is between religion and psuedo-scientific political dogma that have ideological ties to cults like humanism or progressivism.

>>17835989
>doesn't demand blind faithful obeisance.

but it does? do you know what happens to people who question the dogma on climate change, gender, racial biology, evolution etc? complete alienation from your peers and probably losing your job. None of these things are scientifically proven and there is plenty of evidence against the ruling opinion that is ignored because it isnt politically useful.

>>17837789

>>17835989
>Yeah cool but the ice caps are still melting and there are Nazis in the government
You are a loonatic living in a fantasy world.

>>17837411

This strikes me as class reductionism. You seem to suggest that if we topple the existing class order, it will diminish or even eliminate racism, unless I'm reading your post too critically. Both race and class have to be addressed for a progressive movement to gather momentum, we can't just ignore the role race plays in class structures.

>>17837718

Why should black people have to build a completely new system from the ground up? Of course meaningful reforms and abolition are difficult goals to achieve, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't try. This is about moving *beyond* racism, and you can't do that by just compartmentalizing tens of millions of people

>>17837894
>Why should they
Just cut some land out of the South, expel the whites, install a black government there and give it semi-autonomous status within the US, similar to a Soviet ethnic republic. Various laws can be passed preventing whites from entering, owning land, and so on. One shouldn't be forced to live there, of course, but the reality of the world is that people tend to want to be ruled by their own ethnic group and that isn't going to happen for Africans in the US and they aren't going to get equal life outcomes in a majority non-black society. This will only be exacerbated as the white percentage of the population decreases and fewer people have any investment in the black struggle as a new founding narrative of the US.

>>17837934
>Just do this extremely radical thing that no liberal government is capable of doing and that nobody wants.

White people don't want to be displaced from their homes, black people definitely dont want to live in Africa 2.0. You are dreaming.

>>17837947
This is already happening in some cities slowly, Baltimore(~65% black) and Detroit(~80% black) are prominent examples.

>>17837947
>White people don't want to be displaced from their homes,
Was already done in the 20th Century in several major cities mate.
>black people definitely dont want to live in Africa 2.0.
Why wouldn't they? This has always seemed like a contradiction in the racial justice activist worldview to me. If you're at the point where you consider police officers to be white supremacist race soldiers, consider gifted classes to be crypto-segregation, etc. then why would you want to take part in such a society if there was an alternative?

>>17837258
What systems? How can a system "see" or do anything? Systems don't exist. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.

>police impropriety, specifically regarding abuses of power against minorities
You mean the group of people with the highest crime rate in the US which leads everyone, not just police, to assume things. The only ones perpetuating racism are the minorities themselves.

>>17837979
Because whether they realise it or not, black people benefit a lot from society the way it is, they are a protected class, people defer to them. If a crime is committed against them they are presumed innocent for fear of racism. In a 100% black society all these privileges would vanish because there is no way to exploit racial conflict for status anymore.

>>17837934
It's called Liberia and it didn't work.

>>17838023
Wasn't Liberia "decent" by African standards until the civil war where the native blacks overthrew the Americo-Liberians

>>17838004

>systems don't exist

0/10 bait, leave and think about how dumb you are

>>17835989
You need to go back to >>/twitter/

>>17838057
Show me the systems.

>>17838057
systems are a psyop by the Lemurian Reptilians to make you think they aren't pulling the strings

>>17835960
It's not about religion versus science but religion versus scientific materialism.
Modern Physics and Ancient Faith
God After Darwin: A Theology of Evolution