/lit/ - Literature

>>17816404
what about when you need to indicate a pause, typically between two main clauses, that is more pronounced than that indicated by a comma.

I am an idiot for thinking that semicolon has never elevated a sentence, nor brought anything worthwhile to the rhythm of the text or telling; it doesn’t merely seem to show that the writer knows the grammar rules and that's that.

>>17816404
>Am I idiot
Yes.

>>17816404
Yes, but you should just read more and you will understand its importance.

>>17816414
Then I'd much prefer hyphen, I think semicolon is often really obnoxious.

>>17816435
I think that's a sign of badly formed sentence, or you're just sucking up the classics with no real opinion of your own.

>>17816404
Nah I used to think that growing up when I was first seeing it rarely use. The more often you see it the easier it is to understand. You hear it almost in the same sense that you can hear the way a comma is being used. It’s best used as a hard break between two related statements that specifically don’t warrant two sentences.

>>17816404
>Am I idiot for thinking that semicolon has never elevated a sentence
yes

>>17816451
It's 4chan stfu you nigger.

Also there have been plenty of brilliant writers who used the semicolon to an unparalleled degree, which allowed for the breaking up and reordering of the sentence. Carlyle foremost, Melville also.

>>17816500
It doesn't convoy the feeling, it merely extends a sentence that could most often be expressed in two, separate parts rather than not being able to decide between a dot and a comma. Dash would be better in most occasions.

>>17816591
; > —
simple as

>>17816591
How would you rewrite Pound's In a Station of the Metro without a semicolon?

>>17816404
Ya; yes, you are.

>>17816404
Grammar is for nazis

>>17816591
i scan a lot of okd logbooks and diaries from the 18th/19th century and they do this a lot.

it's for rhythm. it sounds different in your head when you're reading

>>17816695
In poetry is doesn't bother me, and I welcome warmly any wild idea in that field.

>>17816404
I excessively use semicolons and hyphens in my German stuff just because I can and no one can stop me. Have no clue about grammar tough.

Yeah u should literally kys

>>17816778
why wouldn't you welcome it in prose if used in a similar way as Pound? It can illustrate the sentence-equality that similar punctuation would fail to do.

>>17816809
Teacher in high school used to say that: ''in every good essay there's a one semicolon, but only one''.

>>17816440
>Then I'd much prefer a hyphen; I think a semicolon is often really obnoxious.
You mean an en dash – that one has a similar purpose to the semicolon, but not quite the same; whereas a semicolon is used simply to join two interrelated clauses with a pause shorter than that of a period, a dash is used to place emphasis or to create an introduction to a sentence. There's more to it than that, but you should read up on it yourself instead of making retarded threads on /lit/. Learning how to properly organize your thoughts will foster you to think in a more complex and organized way in the first place.

I like to use semicolons at random; grammar rules are for pussies.

>>17817134
>Grammar rules are for pussies so I follow them in the safest and mostly cowardly way possible
What did he mean by this?

>>17816404
>Am I idiot for thinking that comma or apostrophe has never elevated a sentence nor brought anything worthwhile to the rhythm of the text or telling? It merely seems to show that the writer knows the grammar rules and thats that.
Yes... we use grammar markers for grammatical reasons. Very observant.

>>17817111
em dash dumbass

>>17817198
Wrong, retard. The middle-length one is called the en dash.

>>17816404
Go to bed, Kurt

>>17817198
that's an n-dash -- you can tell because it's the size of an n

>>17816404
I agree entirely. Semicolons have to go. It's a comma or a period or neither. Stop equivocating. Enough silly marks.

>>17817251
Yes but em-dashes are the ones used like semicolons

>>17816416
baste

>>17817283
With dashes, I think you can have your own opinion as to which length to use in which context and whether you put spaces before and after them, as long as you're consistent. Look at the nonsense Melville was pulling with his em dashes.

More like the chad—dash

>>17816404
It's a big comma. I use a hyphen whenever it doesn't look good. Using semicolons, hyphens and colons enables the writer to form a single train of thought, which would have otherwise required multiple sentences, into one clearly visible sentence.

Notice how some dots are shorter than others and how some are longer. Those shorter ones should be semicolons. They are rarely used and can be used very differently; to the anger of many purists out there who seem to jerk off the english punctuation way too much. The rarity of the semicolon contributes to you just seeing it as proper grammar not an artistic tool for expression.

>>17817392
This is not a very good argument for the semicolon. It could be easily struck from your post and replaced with a comma, and a great deal of cringe would be saved.

>>17817485
that's because he used it wrong; his second clause was dependent but a semicolon combines two independent clauses

>>17817498
Yep. But honestly, even if it was a good argument, like if he used it appropriately, I would still be against the semicolon, because it's so easy to restructure into either a comma or a period (or nothing).

>>17816404
Whatever it adds or does not add, a lot of writers I really, really like use it.

>>17817485
>>17816440
>obnoxious
>cringe
The insecurity of grammarlet virgins is on full display.

>>17817513
you think my post would have been better with a period? I normally would type it with a comma but in a formal context I'm not going to comma splice sentences together

>>17817513
see >>17816695 and >>17816835
The semicolon can convey a parity of clauses that other punction can't. You can't replace Pound's semicolon because nothing would demonstrate that he entends both lines to be equal but independent of each other. Even if you crudely replaced it with "=" you will lose the independence of each line.

>>17817566
>entends
pardon my french

>>17817524
Yes, truly it's our insecurity that is displayed by your emotional reaction to some word in common vernacular here.
>>17817530
If you had used a comma it wouldn't be a comma splice because the second clause is dependent on the first. If you had used a period with no other changes, e.g.
>They are rarely used and can be used very differently. To the anger of many purists out there who seem to jerk off the english punctuation way too much.
It would be conventionally erroneous but not something I would personally have a problem with, since I've overdosed on Cormac McCarthy and find that kind of thing aesthetically appealing.

>>17817566
Let's assume for the sake of the reader that I'm lazy, what's a sentence from Pound featuring a semicolon that you'd challenge me to revise?

>>17816404
Equivalent of a ‘turnaround’ in music, a pivot

>>17817602
I already said >>17816695
>The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
>Petals on a wet, black bough.
You can even see it written often with a colon or no punctuation instead of the semicolon he intended and it completely changes the poem.
You can also read "The Punctuation of ‘In A Station of the Metro’" by Steve Ellis if you want more information. I'm sure there are examples in prose that use the semicolon to convey a similar parity Pound is attempting, this is just the most obvious and well-known example of it that I can think of.

>>17817638
That could be replaced with either a period or a comma, or nothing at all. You might think it self-evident that it could not be, but it's not. Sorry.

>>17817585
>If you had used a comma
No I mean in my post here >>17817498
You didn't comment on my semicolon

>>17817674
just replace that with a period. what exactly do you think is so important about linking these independent clauses in some kind of structure?

>>17817669
If you replace it with a comma you lose the separation (independent clause), just like how the comma in the second line can't separate the petals from the black bough.
If you replace it with a period you lose the parity. They are can be sentences that are related and connect to each other but they cannot be equal. You can write: 2+2. 4. and we will understand what you likely meant but you have clearly lost something or at the very least there is a clearer way to convey your thought.

>>17817702
they are a single idea: the statement that something was wrong followed by an explanation of what was wrong. I used a semicolon there for the same reason I used a colon in the previous sentence (and this one): to elaborate on a piece of the proceeding clause

>>17817725
Sequences of sentences often conform to a single idea. This is the basis for the organizational structure we call a paragraph. The sentences don't need to be fused into a single sentence through the awkward conjuncture of a period and comma smashed together.
>>17817715
It's a poem, the lines are separated. Throw any line ending you want on there. A period, a comma, a blank space. Who cares? This is probably the worst argument for a semicolon I've ever seen.

>>17817738
>It's a poem, the lines are separated
And Pound's choice of punctuation changes how they are separated. I tried to give you a real answer but if you don't understand how the punctuation here changes the "rhythm of the text or telling" you either don't want to change your mind or actually are an idiot, sorry. If it is the latter, all I can suggest is reading the short essay I mentioned since it is specifically on Pound's choice of punctuation and why publications that change the punctuation also changed how the poem was understood.

>>17817760
Look pal I get that you love Pound, that's cool, not really trying to dissuade you, but your fixation on a given punctuation mark is something he himself would likely laugh at, and if you really think the value of the work would be sapped if it were to be removed, I really dunno what to tell you except that I have more respect for his work than you do.

>>17817771
cope of the year award

>>17817771
I actually don't know that much about Pound's poetry (I know more about his politicals & artistic movements), that poem is just one that everyone would have read in college or high school. When talking about a semicolon, obviously such a short poem comes to mind when the punctuation plays a role in the equality of each line (apparition = wet, faces = petals, crowd = bough). It is a seminal text for Modernism both for its content/theme and its form.

As for Pound's thoughts, from what I do know I assume anyone altering his text would upset him. However, just from a few seconds of searching, I found this:

>In 1914 however, Pound seems to have decisively rejected the Poetry/New Freewoman format: his article on "Vorticism" in the September 1 issue of the Fortnightly Review follows closely the account of the genesis of "In a Station" given in T.P.’s Weekly, reproducing the same version of the poem with the addition, however, of a comma after "Petals" (p. 467).

I really was just trying to treat your question as honest because I thought it was interesting.

>>17817810
Seethe;
>>17817817
It's just not a necessary mark. That a poet used it does not redeem it, nor imply something else could not have been used in its stead. I don't think this is a particularly dramatic assertion.

Read Heinrich Böll, he uses the semicolon constantly in a really effective way. I recommend Billiards at half-past nine.

>>17816404
Anything that can add nuance and aid intuitive flow to communication is a good thing. The biggest issue with semicolons IMO is that their placement tends to be quite unique to the writer; I personally use them to mark that what follows should be contextualized by the previous idea. I reserve a dash for when what follows is only a clarification of the previous idea -- the nuance of where emphasis is placed is different.

At the end of the day, you should just write in a way that makes you as intelligible as possible to your target audience. If a symbol can help with that, go ahead and use it.

>>17817867
If I made up five more marks that all had a particular usage, would that be good? What about twenty of them? A hundred?

>>17817876
having more marks would only confuse the reader, right? the goal is communication, which is a cooperative task.

>>17816404
Technical writing requires complex lists of lists.
For this purpose the semi-colon is invaluable.

>>17817848
Again, Pound is just the obvious example that comes to mind. I'm sure you can find the use of a semicolon as a tool of parity/equality in prose. Sure, if you are strictly speaking structure and grammar we can get rid of it just like we could get rid of the word "unhappy" and replace every instance with sad but stylistically speaking, which is what was implied in OP, it matters and can change what is read, what is seen and what is understood. I think my example illustrates that but here is an excerpt from the essay you won't read:

>this alteration makes the relationship between the two lines appreciably more subtle and suggestive than was previously the case: the colon tended to subordinate the first line to the second by indicating that by itself line one was incomplete, its function being primarily that of introducing the "Image" in line two which the colon informs us is necessary to complete the first line’s meaning. With the semi-colon the first line is, so to speak, less definitely a "prologue" to the second, the linkage between the two lines being insisted on less emphatically. The relationship between them can be said to be not only more subtle but even more equivocal, and the cost of not foregrounding the "Image" is the possibility, as some of my sample readings indicate, that the semi-colon assists the first line in overturning its subordinate position and becoming foregrounded itself.

>>17817876
⸘What

>>17817879
Yes, so let's get rid of the semicolon. The typical english user can barely handle the comma.

>>17817880
In technical writing I prefer using paragraph markings, tables, and figures to convey complex structures. Nobody wants to linearly parse a nonlinear concept.

>>17817886
The inverted question and exclamation marks are a funny affect of the spangloids. I have it on good authority that their young people don't use them in IM speak, probably they'll go the way of the semicolon within our lifetime.
>>17817885
The semicolon can certainly change what's read, but only in the sense of a period or a comma, its constituent parts. It does nothing on its own except equivocate between the two. Hell, the thing's only 500 years old, it barely can be said to belong to English. Let's jettison the fucking deadweight.

>>17817887
There is no "we". You can avoid the semicolon if it doesn't help you communicate. I'm just telling you why I see some value in it. There is no Law of English. Technically capitalization, commas, periods, separate spellings for homophones, apostrophes, etc etc are all redundant and the written language would be easier to learn without them.

>>17817392
>It's a big comma
For you

>>17816416
>>17817915
Based.

>>17817887
>let's simply everything down to the retard level
Why are you posting on a literature board?

>>17817919
cuz it's fucking lit brah

>>17817919
Do you really think you being mad is going to make me stop? Triggering brainlets is half the joy of posting.

>>17817908
I didn't even say "we." You can barely read and you're trying to argue about grammar. Use the mark all you want, it's not like I can't parse it. I can parse it, which is why I know it's not necessary.

>>17817906
>but only in the sense of a period or a comma, its constituent parts.
>>17817715
I mentioned this earlier but since you really do seem like an idiot, let's say the Pound's semicolon is literally read as an equal sign for English clauses. How could a comma or period replicate that?

>>17817886
>inverted interrobang
what other cursed punctuation marks does /lit/ know of?

>>17817931
I know this is tough for you to understand on an abstract level. Try replicating it concretely. Rewrite the pound lines using the comma, the period, and also nothing at all. See how it feels. Roll it around in your mind. Don't worry, this exercise is completely safe. You'll be ok.

>>17817929
You're the one arguing. I'm just giving you my perspective. I'm not trying to beat you or anything lol. no need to get all pedantic. "let's" implies the existance of a "we"

>>17816404
As it turns out, knowing grammar is not normal, it's a thing to show off.
Where has our society taken the wrong turn?

>>17817947
It is always most beautiful with the semicolon.

>>17817951
Do you think you'll be alright?

>>17817963
I reckon I'll be fine, thanks. Cheers.

>>17817961
If it came to you with any other mark you'd feel that particular mark was most appropriate.

>>17817894
Maybe in STEM and the ghetto of sociology.

In HASS you use complex lists. Anything you can reduce to the form of a table or bulletpoints isn't an adequate representation of what the author believes the situation actually is: they're reductivist; they're crapulent; and, they shit me to tears—am I making this clear?—just give me a break.—for fucks sake.

>>17817971
Honestly, I'm not sure I could know just like if "Petals" was left as a blank line I'm not sure if I would know what word to fill it in with—I'm not Ezra Pound.

What I can say is I first encountered the poem without any punctuation (the original incorrect publication of the poem) and I didn't 'get it'. I understood the connection between the lines but it didn't really feel it until I read it with the semicolon.

¦Personally; I like to !mprovi5e. I find the re@d3r trvly appreciates a *feeling of dis6ust and m£ntal i1lnE$$ &s they - struggle to read butchered t€xt.

>>17817978
Sure. I was referring to STEM technical writing. I can understand how HASS prefers sentences. It seems to suit their pedigree well. As another example of technical writing, legal writing is always reduced to bullet points.

Everyone has conventions within their circle, and as long as the convention is well understood, it should probably be ok.

>>17816404
You're a retard; semicolons are based

>>17818060
now THIS is poetry. chef's kiss would have been to spell "you're" as "your".

>>17818009
Fuck off penguin of doom.

>>17817933
Oh you need to inspect Unicode closer;

>>17818187
Lel. 4chan's "safety" script ate "reversed semi-colon" "three dot colon" and "non-inverted interrobang"

>>17818190
censorship! these are thr symbols that big glyph doesn't want you to know about

>>17818119
Explain what I did wrong

>>17816404
Never understood the hate that it got from here.

>>17818593
A good place to start would be reading the thread.

>>17818439
nothing it was an honest compliment

>>17818777
forgot to mention that I'm trans

>>17816404
Hyphens are the most Yankee Reddit Hollywood on paper I learned to write by writing a diary high school English class mixed race shit I've ever seen. Use a semi colon like a man.

>>17819510
as if America has any literary culture outside yankee gentry