/lit/ - Literature

>>17782165
it's total nonsense and merely a cover to justify mass murder

>>17782165
Well, lets walk through some of the steps.
What happens if every worker, right now, attempted to unionize their work place?

>>17782188
capitalism is just a cover for the mass starvation of billions

>>17782192
Let's skip the trivialities and get to the problems. Unions work for builders and plumbers. Please tell me how a flat-structured union will somehow achieve any of the great accomplishments of the West in the last 100 years, without any money or private property involved, simply by organising themselves according to their needs and abilities.

>>17782193
Nobody is starving in capitalist countries. Have you seen how many obese people are in America? Compare that to Communist countries lmao

tumbleweed

>>17782238
Overconsumption and mass waste is worse than starvation

>>17782165
It can't
Communism is retarded utopian idea that requires post scarcity

>>17782525
the copes communists have tell themselves

>>17782238
There are, in fact, people starving in capitalist countries. If there were not, there would not be as many foodbanks and breadlines as we have you fucking indoctrinated autistic polfag.
>>17782219
What makes plumbers and builders different than any other service worker? It's like you give away the answer within that line, yet refuse to acknowledge that the exact same principles would apply to everyone else. Also historically speaking, unions built the middle class, gave you an 8 hour work day, a 5 day work week, a minimum wage, social security, anti child labor laws, industry protections, safety protections, and a long list of other things that are rather helpful to building the modern society of today. I'm sorry it's not a great man thesis or that unions invented the lightbulb.

>>17782525
What a fickle mind you have. I'm sure if I responded to your argument you'd come up with some other way to make communism always right and free market economies of any kind (even social democracies) always wrong.

>>17782531
Not even a communist, just stating some truths yankshit

>>17782532
Not replying to a strawman sorry hun. This isn't the capitalism vs communism subreddit. We're talking about communism vs the mixed economic with social welfare here.

>>17782537
Im sure I would because communism is always right

>>17782165
surface level stuff srsly

>>17782532
>There are, in fact, people starving in capitalist countries

>>17782554
The number in this is wrong communism actually killed 100 gorillion people

>>17782546
Sorry sweetie, there's no strawman in that post. You just don't want to participate in a discussion that isn't on your terms with your 'facts'.

>>17782540
>>17782549
>>17782551
>>17782525
>>17782532
>Posted from my laptop, via the internet, from my home, where I enjoy the latest capitalist technological advances, and from which I regularly receive items from Amazon and other capitalism corporations.

>>17782554
Wow, this is really a high quality post, anon. My entire perception of global economic and ideological systems has been changed because of it. I am a new man thanks to you and your very high quality post.

>>17782566
How are dense amerimutts still parroting this meme with no self awareness lol

>>17782566
>lists off technologies invented at universities, government funded military instillations, and open source communities
You are so smart anon.

>>17782532
this is why i don't argue with americans. their entire conception of 'capitalism' is built on the united states situation.

>>17782570
complaining about starving americans given how many starve in communist countries is less intellectual honest than that picture

>>17782572
you wouldn't have any of that shit in a communist nation where everyone isn't alienated from their work

>>17782165
are you people in the west still having this discussion? if you were to ask anyone from post-soviet countries what does he think about a planned economy you'd see pretty quickly what it's worth

>>17782580
Ah, yes, I forgot that it's my job to have an almanac level knowledge of the historical and modern evolutions of every countries union laws, ideological contexts, and economic regulations when I talk to strangers on the internet. My bad.

Leftism does not work.

>>17782586
Yes you would lol, it would just be a lot harder for those companies you have a hard on for you exploit the workers

>>17782596
No we're not. The only people promoting communism here are ivory tower academics and teenagers. Neither has any real world experience.

>>17782606
You like weekends off and a minimum wage? Or neetbux? You’re gonna fall into one of these categories, and that’s thanks to leftism

>>17782610
>Yes you would lol
You realize that in the Soviet Union you had to apply and wait for years in order to maybe get a telephone. You absolute retard.

For a car you had to wait ten years.

>>17782604
that's not the problem. the problem is that you take your fucked up country to be the definition of capitalism. you know europe has a capitalist economy too, right? and how many people starve in north europe? Fuck face. zero nuance

>>17782615
False.

>>17782616
Oh how terrible. If only there were options available to call someone when in public where I could pay for a phone or maybe some sort of transportation that occurs in the public.

>>17782623
Okay so you’re retarded, good to know at least

>>17782626
Indeed that sounds absolutely awful, thank god I don't live in a communist shithole where I would have to go through that.

>>17782629
Not an argument you lying retarded leftist.

>>17782622
Hard to do much of a materialist analysis of countries I've never been to or lived in. Not going to try any of that 'nuance' because it's not my place broski.

>>17782616
>wahh I hate waiting I want my toys now now now
The state of American consumers are a blight on this world

>>17782637
>I have to travel to place to learn about them
Holy shit. Don't reply to me.

>>17782635
What's it like, anon? To be so retarded yourself?

>>17782635
You “argument” was the word false lol. Americans are beyond help, utterly devoid of critical thinking, and subservient to whatever CIA backed western propaganda is put in front of them

>>17782638
Is this supposed to be an argument?

>>17782644
You're among on the retarded leftists in here.

>>17782645
Leftism was a fucking mistake.

>>17782643
Ah yes, because you will definitely believe my opinion on the internet if I've read a book about the place you have experienced 30 years of living in!

>>17782644
who are you directing that image at? no one pumped out more bullshit propaganda than communists which you have apparently succumbed to

>>17782648
>no argument still
Just log off now, kid. You tried to talk with the adults but it’s not worked out

Every year in Luxembourg about 2 people get killed. Average income is $71,710. Most people are highly educated and have full access to high quality health care through health insurance.

That's a capitalist country. The reason YOUR country fails (USA) has nothing to do with your economic system.

>>17782657
>leftist
>adult
The irony.

Leftism doesn't work.

>>17782651
>no one pumped out more bullshit propaganda
The US did, the fact you don’t accept this shows it worked on you

>>17782651
lmao, american capitalists wrote the book on it faggot

>>17782651
Agreed. People who post those stupid fucking "you are not immune to propaganda" memes act like by posting that picture, they themselves ARE immune to propaganda.

This thread is worse than a dumpster fire, so you already know what I'm doing

>>17782665
>still no argument
Amerkiddies trying to talk politics is very cute but ultimately sad to see. Like a cute puppy with a limp that should be put out of its misery

>>17782677
I'm not American so you can start using that word now thanks. You're a mentally deranged leftist, please seek help.

>>17782680
>arabs keep coming into my country so I'm going to blame commies because I hate other cultures and dark skin, waaaaaaaah

>>17782680
>muh leftists >:( wah wah wah
Cry about it

Have the communists in this thread even read Marx?

Communism can't happen unless the entire world working class revolts and establishes communism everywhere at once. This is apparently inevitable.

You can't "vote" for a communist party or argue about communism online. You just sit there and wait for the revolution, which was supposed to happen about 50 years ago lmao

>>17782680
You talk like a braindead American so that’s on you buddy

>>17782165
This board is about literature

>>17782689
>>17782692
>>17782700
Socialism does not work. Grow up.

>>17782697
>you never read Marx!
>even if you did you didn’t understand him!
>even if you understood him you could never implement it!
>even if you could implement it, you couldn’t implement it right!
>nnnnnoooo, t-they can’t be.... c-changing w-with the times t-to improve the lives of others within their capabilities! Nnnnnnoooooooooooo

>>17782667
the biggest current propaganda operation by the cia is the promotion of awareness of global warming. i already know that you are deeply worried about global warming, so it worked.

>https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/science/linda-zall-cia.html
>Inside the C.I.A., She Became a Spy for Planet Earth
>Linda Zall is disclosing how she toiled anonymously within the intelligence agency to help scientists intensify their studies of a changing planet.

i guess that's the difference, the cia used propaganda to try to slow down climate change, while communists use propaganda to try to cover up famines and prison camps.

>>17782715
Life is improving every year without any input from Marxist. The only places in the world that aren't improving are those following Marxist doctrines.

>>17782727
I'm going to repeat, how fucking retarded do you think you are? Are you aware that your large folder of smug wojacks exuberates from your post? Even if the thing that you said is true, it's a drop in the bucket of the extensive propaganda campaigns of U.S. actors. That article itself, being one hell of an example, but only one of millions of instances.

>>17782811
Define improving. Life expectancy is dropping in first world countries. Wow, great, I can afford a TV now but can't afford a doctor. Great. Awesome.

>>17782238
>Have you seen how many obese people are in America? Compare that to Communist countries lmao

I don't know how many times I'll have to post it, but, well, here it is again

>American and Soviet citizens eat about the same amount of food each but the Soviet diet may be more nutritious.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP85M00363R000601440024-5.pdf

>>17782596
>if you were to ask anyone from post-soviet countries what does he think about a planned economy you'd see pretty quickly what it's worth

True indeed

>>17782165
It obviously makes absolutely no fucking sense. It doesn't even have a coherent enough picture of how it is supposed to function to be wrong. "worker councils'' is about all you will ever get from these people, and something vague about voting people into positions, and they might then bring up 'experts' who aren't voted in but gain their position through some other process they won't explain and so on. They just dance around the inevitability of the state while reluctantly recreating it piece by piece when forced to specify how any particular element of the system will function.

>>17782660
>literally a country which produces nothing and only strive on laundering money from drug dealing and scams

>>17782165
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is a lot better for getting a tl;dr of Marxism. But it was written by Engels and modern leftoids are frightened by the word "Scientific," so they retreat to the meme manifesto. Marxism still recognizes a state which organizes the masses, but the state is controlled by the proletariat. And because they believe that the state is itself a product of class-oppression, it will naturally die out once the proletarian state socialist regime advances economic conditions to the point that the state is unnecessary. This is textbook Marxism. Marxism is not anarchism. It is not a love-fest commune. It is proletarian seizure of the state (which at this point should have merged with capital).

>>17783175
They produce commemorative postage stamps, don't they? Or is that Liechtenstein...

>>17782596
Planned economies are utter trash. Anyone who still think they're good are either delusional or intentionally stupid.

>>17782525
Cope

>>17782841
The only places it's dropping is because of lifestyle choices of the citizens. Does Marxism force people to exercise? No, so don't blame it on the economy asshole.

>>17783048
Already seen this mr redditor man. This shit is posted there daily. Good job taking into account those that starved btw.

>>17783276
Life style choices determined by corporate propaganda sanctioned by the government. If the idiot has never been exposed to proper nutrition information, do you think he's going to question the 50 ads for McDonalds he sees a day or the corporate studies that tell you wine and cake improve heart health?

>>17783282
>Good job taking into account those that starved btw.

You mean, those that starved because they were literally burning their own crops, half a century before this document was written? Yeah, very relevant

Literal wiki-level depth of research:

>villagers turned to violence: committing arson, and lynching and murdering local authorities, kolkhoz leaders, and activists.[23][24] Others responded with acts of sabotage, including the burning of crops and the slaughter of draught animals. The amount of livestock dropped by half from 1928 to 1932 as a result of the slaughters.[25] The destruction of important farming equipment was common means of protest among peasants who resisted collectivization.[26] Fueled by fear and anxiety, rumours spread throughout the villages leading to these acts.[27] Rumors associated the Soviet government with the Antichrist (godless and evil), threatened an end to traditional ways of peasant life, and worked to unite the peasants to protest against collectivization.

What? Burning crops and slaughtering animals as a form of "protest" leads to food shortage? WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED THAT...

>>17782193
>yeah but X
EVERYTIME if you can't judge the system on it's own, what good is it?

>>17782525
>Capitalism is bad because it gives you too much to eat
Holy fuck, when I thought communists couldn't get any stupid

>>17782572
>>17782580
why are you so obsessed with americans? genuine question. nobody mentioned them until you. it’s like they live rent free in your head.

>>17783290
You never want to take responsibility for your actions. And, what's wrong with propaganda again? Even communists spew propaganda, like you, and you act as if you're some kind savior that's going to usher in age when everyone is happy and taken care of - when reality shows communism just creates a prison any time its put into practice.

>>17782715
>Communism
>Improving life
That's why the revolutions of 1989 overthrew it, and why every current communist country abandoned it?

>reading the memefesto instead of the gotha roast
ngmi m8 also trough AI economic planning

>>17782676
even as a commie any discussion on this alaskan seal clubbing forum about socialism or communism is far from intelligent or productive

I asked the tripfag the same question a few times regarding anarchism and literally all she could produce was "it just works"

basically leftist ideologies are the ultimate midwit trap for people who think they've figured it all out because they put together a system that sounds nice and makes sense in the context of a vacuum but they are too stupid to understand that functioning in a vacuum and being applicable to real life are not the same thing

the answer is there is no doing fuck all without central planning authority or hierarchical structure, and when you are talking about mass confiscating private property and controlling distribution, that centralized power structure needs to be virtually totalitarian in its power, hence why every leftist revolution turns out the way it does, with totalitarian state capitalism

watching leftists present themselves as intellectuals is genuinely bizarre and pathetic given how easily their beliefs can be instantly deconstructed, and its often scary if they actually have the potential to destroy the lives of everyone around them

>>17782841
>first world countries
>cant afford a doctor
nice try

>>17782165
>but I am confused as to how communism would be implemented in modern times.
By the proletariat itself in struggle, not by building castles in the sky, but by building techniques of solidarity and praxis on the ground outside of the eye of the boss class and liberal hangers on.

>Alienation
Time to read Volume 1. Alienation in a mature Marxist system relates solely to the distancing of control over labour, the alienation of actually living labour into labour power in abstract. Voluntary collective endeavour doesn't do this.

And for fucks sake next time troll with Peasants war in Germany, Condition of the Working Class, Family Private Property and the State or Anti-Duhring.

>>17786101
>By the proletariat itself in struggle, not by building castles in the sky, but by building techniques of solidarity and praxis on the ground outside of the eye of the boss class and liberal hangers on.
what a complete and utter non-answer word salad lmao, care to try again?

>>17784557
anon are you really talking about Romania.....

>>17786109
I'm sorry you're not familiar with the basic grounding of socialist discourse from the last two hundred years.

Workers form a unique collective subject due to their common alienation: they form solidarity in response to the stimulus of capital. Workers do not present themselves to the employer as actually living people, but as the sale of command of their conduct for a period of time. This sold conduct is "labour power." This distances them, alienates them, from control over their labour power during the term of commitment: they do not control their labour power even if they make "decisions" within a remit, such as an employed doctor or postwoman does.

By forming a common relationship to production, without an implicit form of property over production, workers have a necessarily *propertyless* future relationship in their control over their common productive behaviour.

This common relationship forms the basis of workers producing communism together. Such a doing-knowing is called "praxis" after the greeks. Only such praxes that exist outside of the eye of the liberals can sustain themselves between moments of active struggle, the rest are "recooperated" or "enclosed," such as the unions were turned against workers, or the welfare state was turned against workers, or the Labour party was turned against workers, or the Communist party was turned against workers.

Care to fucking interrogate the basic terminology of the domain you're going to enter. I'd suggest Value Price and Profit, or Contribution to a Critique of Political Economy if you don't have time for the fucking simple volume 1. If you don't even have time for those read Mandel's prosaic summary: yes he's a trot, but it was a textbook for a first year class.

Jaysus fuck, if you're a hegemonised worker-in-itself then that explains the success of bourgeois deeducation.

>>17782165
Sorry anon, but you got memed into reading the wrong book. Try this one instead, it's far more coherent.

>>17786092
Yeah thats more of an american thing, most capitalist countries are smart enough to engage in at least some social welfare

>>17786153
this is not a matter of terminology, its a matter of you STILL completely and utterly failing to address the topic at hand you absolute cretin, literally none of what you said provides an explicit explanation of how "workers forming a common relationship" directly translates to the formation of "real communism" without centralized power structures, which is especially important since we have seen that literally every single communist revolution fails at this

>>17782165
>Do you just expect workers to somehow arrange themselves according to their abilities to build infrastructure or a supercomputer or hospital equipment?
Easily done

>>17786187
…Tell me more about the internal failures of '68 in Prague.

>>17786187
Actually tell me how the 3rd council of the Central workers council of budapest failed.

No.

So stop making grandiose claims. You don't talk the talk. You've not read the relevant history of self-emancipation. How long did Korean anarchy last? Is Zapitismo liberalism, answer with reference to socialisation through solidarity.

No of course not. You're just a fucken cunt. Join your fucken union, then join the fucken union, then learn.

There's a reason why praxis isn't in textbooks, and its cop spies like you.

>>17786202
>being this desperate to avoid the topic at hand
why dance around the issue?

>>17786165
You're going to the camp

>>17786153
You just said a bunch of nothing. This is what communists do. You set up these mythological, obscurest figures of speech are intrinsically meaninglessness. You literally said nothing of value or use. Stirner, Nietzsche were right - you're just a bunch faggots who take yourselves way too seriously. There is no ultimate truth to the universe. Life is inherently meaningless. You don't have to care about the workers, humanity, or any utopian goal you morons put forth. Fuck your Marxist dogmas and motifs, I'm not interested in your communist,quasi-religious faith.

>>17786210
>y-you dont know shit cunt!
this is not an explanation, this is an autistic retard throwing a fit. saying "dude praxis" is not an explanation for how "praxis" directly translates to the correct results in a real world context

>>17786213
If you can't see the link between Prague '68 and praxic autogestation you're either in yourself, our a liberal.

>>17786230
>This is what communists do.
This strikes me as a failure of inductive logic. Certainly your data set can't be that encompassing. Maybe don't extrapolate out on a limited set, particularly here, where most people are shitposting, idiots, or both.

>>17786210
>Actually tell me how the 3rd council of the Central workers council of budapest failed.
They were crushed by Soviet tanks?
>Zapitismo liberalism, answer with reference to socialisation through solidarity
They're peasant farmers with land nobody values. They still participate in capitalism - they literally fund their operations via coffee sales.
>Join your fucken union, then join the fucken union, then learn.
Trade unionsts certainly have been, and are, anti-communist though. AFL-CIO hates you fags. Unions are over-rated, and this fetishization of workers is a huge problem with Marxism. Just because you "work" - no one has to intrinsically believe your life has value, and no one needs to respect you because you work. Labor is simply a means of existence - there's no mythical virtue to it that isn't imposed by societal conditioning. The worship of labor, and workers, is what makes communists abhorrent because they seem to think "work" is the only process that determines one's own trajectory or class. I don't give a fuck about "class solidarity" - I care about one's utility to me measured me. People's use to me, and this defines many people, are of what utility they have to my goals. Not every "worker" is my friend, and some are certainly my enemy, and I have no to care about them - especially when they work against my interests.

>>17786252
bringing up idealist getting obliterated after achieving a few token reforms is not a great example bro, in fact this only further cements my point

Reminder that every critique of capitalism pushes me further into the third position rather than towards your naive dreams of communism

>>17786299
There's no system better than capitalism. Anti-capitalism is the biggest larp there is.

>>17786307
We would do better without globalists and jews, with every country run by and for their own people. Fuck every multinational corporation that don't even pay tax.

>>17782826
This book has been repeatedly debunked. There's nothing wrong with capitalism, get over it and pick up a barbell.

>>17786328
No, we would do better without retards like you who are radicalized by social media. The difference between you, and communists is simply where you get your news from, and not your batshit insane ideas. If anything, the federal government another anti-communist, anti-fascist crackdown.

>>17786307
not him but it seems to me like most 3rd position ideologies simply involve a capitalist economy with some key regulations to ensure the people are taken care of and thus will happily uphold the government. every time i see someone critique aspects of capitalism i cant help but think about how national socialism addressed x or y issue in a perfectly sensible and viable way that doesn't involve desperately trying reform society from the ground up based on non-viable utopian principles fueled by little more than the power of friendship

>>17786337
and where do you get your news from anon? BBC?

>>17786307
>there's no better system
such thinking is literal brain death

>>17786342
Reputable news sites such as AP and Reuters, you know, people who actually have a reputation for accuracy, unlike morons like yourself

>>17786347
Only the most retarded, degenerate losers think there is a system better than capitalism. The fall of fascism, the Berlin Wall, and the spread of capitalism to the remaining "socialist" countries show that there is no alternate and won't. And honestly, there doesn't need to be since capitalism is doing quite well at providing the needs for people. Nobody needs to waste their life chasing your utopian, and utterly retarded beliefs that you only have because you're a faggot raised on social media with no real life experience.

>>17783071
Ask them what they think of faggots like you next

>>17786279
No communist party has that internal position on '68 mate.

"regrettable need to internationally bastion the reserve armies of communisation by obliteration of foremost elements" sure.

But you're talking shite.

>>17786347
its kind of objectively true though, right? at best you have different forms of administrations using capitalism while saying capitalism is bad when what they really mean is liberal democracy is bad. by all means I dont think we should just stop innovating and trying to do better than capitalism, but getting hung up on self defeating idiocy like communism that inevitably just devolves into state capitalism anyway is accomplishing literally nothing but holding back the innovative process

>>17786364
There's literally no system more innovative than capitalism.

>>17786270
You're viewing value as a moral not an economic relation. Read volume 1. There's no "worth" in "value." only hours.

Yes they were crushed by tanks, not by a failure in praxes.
Yes they do fund their existence by coffee sales; but, further drive forward capacity for communisation. Much like the Bolshevik Party prior to 1934.

Not every worker is our friend. Try Brecht's _Measures Taken_

>>17786241
>correct
Vide bourgeois moralism.

We aren't correct. We will just drown your children.

>>17783048
1. The CIA study explicitly says they don't make judgements on the diet, something you omitted

2. They say the diets could be better according to 1980s health standards due to the fact that the Soviet people ate more grains. Who was encouraging mass grain consumption with nonsense like the foot pyramid which has since been debunked? Why, the American cereal industry!

Retarded tankies go away

>>17786348
where do I get my news from?

>>17786370
>You're viewing value as a moral not an economic relation.
That's what Marxists do since they are humanists. And, Marxists don't remove morality from economic relations - otherwise why would they call for revolution, and speak of such of the "horrific" conditions of the poor worker bees? Who needs to care if they die; they're replaceable. Why do they denounce one's own egoism, the individualistic nature of capitalism, for their utopia based on consumption limits and common property?You are a bit more deceitful because your morality isn't of brotherly love, as you proclaim, but of resentfulness and revenge towards those who own property.
>Yes they do fund their existence by coffee sales; but, further drive forward capacity for communisation
Communisation is when you make profits off commodities - you're starting to sound like a Stalinist.
>Much like the Bolshevik Party prior to 1934
The Bolsheviks were always degenerates though. The crushing of kronstadt, the shooting of hostages, the banning of free elections, opposition groups, the gulags, the man-made famines, the invasions of Eastern Europe and the setting up puppet governments just shows how communists are a bunch of frauds and crooks. You don't want to help people, you are a two-faced rat who only seeks power, because with power, you will do as you please just as any crook pro-claiming they have a just cause. You seek to rationalize your brutality through the deceitful of "FOR THE PEOPLE!" when history has enough bodies to show that communism is nothing more than the counter-revolution against man and his freedom.
> Try Brecht's _Measures Taken_
I'm not going to read anything from you degenerates because I'm not interested in propaganda or being your friend. You can all be murdered for all I care - you communists are fucking worthless.

>>17786388
>Retarded tankies go away
You obviously haven't met modern tankies.

>>17786438
>That's what Marxists do since they are humanists.
…
Time to read the young / old marx critique of marx. Its entry level, like second year. Jaysus.

>>17786348
>Reuters
literally just the BBC

>>17786370
speaking of the bolsheviks, why didn't praxis stop stalinism from cementing itself in the USSR? why didn't it stop the same sort of trend happening in pretty much every notable population where communists were successful?

>>17786438
>The crushing of kronstadt, the shooting of hostages, the banning of free elections, opposition groups, the gulags,
Were not yet determinate. The adherence of the post-24 Soviet Proletariat to the 1936 position was.

Yes Kronstadt for fucksake, but bourgeois state games aren't determinate of the class. Otherwise we'd both be dead.

>>17786348
anon......

>>17786444
Checked

Side note: I hate the BBC so much now. It's completely pozzed.

>>17786446
So the most praxic elements of the soviet union ended up in Kronstadt defying the bolsheviks or aligned. Then the failure of war communist or NEP capitalism (both are capitalisms) over determined the scissors crises.

And the soviet proletarians were too shithouse to go for it until 53-56.

>>17786450
>The IRD acknowledged that this would not give them editorial control over Reuters
Why did you cite a source that refutes you?

>>17786468
>although the IRD believed it would give them political influence over Reuters' work, stating "this influence would flow, at the top level, from Reuters' willingness to consult and to listen to views expressed on the results of its work.”
why did you omit the second half of the sentence?

>>17786476
Why are you being dishonest with your critique when IRD is just making claim thought assumed they could buy influence, and nothing of your sentence says they did. You sound like a retard, and this is what happens when you fail at basic reading comprehension. This is why you are a conspiracy theorist - you don't critically examine pieces of work; you just pick up pieces that fit your asinine views and run with it. You're the type of retard that reads a headline without understanding the context of an article, and that makes sense, since you literally posted a wikipedia PNG instead of the world web page.

>>17786466
ok but how did they let it get that far? i thought praxis was the method for avoiding this kind of thing? at least thats literally the statement you made when this conversation began

>>17786485
didnt read; keep seething

>>17786476
Its interesting how you think the news you get from Breitbart, twitter, facebook could not possibly be biased, and influenced by intelligence services. Only they are telling the truth, all of them are lying, and are on CIA payroll but the people you regurgitate, QANON tier retards, are always telling the truth and are real news.

>>17786491
No is seething though - Biden won. Capitalism won. I voted for Biden, Reuters and AP news are seen as legitmate - not whatever retarded news source you use, and I know you won't tell me either because I know who is it anyways, and you're too embarrassed to share it because you know you're a shill

This thread shows that the eternal jew still manages to keep up the illusion that it's either capitalism or communism, that there's no other choice.

>>17786491
>didnt read;
That's how I feel when communists, fascists tell me to read their news sources. Why the fuck would I care what you think? I'm better than you anyways.

>>17786500
medication

>>17786503
thinks I'm a burger kek

>>17786485
>is clearly laid out that there is a conflict of interest here but bro there's no proof they actually exploited it

>>17786506
>National socialism
>Better than capitalism
I swear, parents need to start beating their kids again

>>17786503
>Biden won. Capitalism won.
lmao are you really implying that capitalism was being threatened in that election

>>17786518
Your source didn't show that though, retard. It show Reuters wasn't influenced by them. Also, this is ironic, why are you using wikipedia source? Don't they have a conflict interest too since they're liberals, and many of their members are associated with intelligence agencies. Maybe wikipedia isn't legitimate source either, using your standard, so we shouldn't use them.

>>17786529
No? Capitalism was never threatened - its last threat was extinguished in 1989 when that wall came crashing down along with the Soviet Union. Biden's win will ensure that capitalism works in the interest of the Alantic Order was established after the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe, and to act as a buffer against Communism in Asia. Trump, the retard, wanted isolationism, and that's a big no no.

>>17786530
im very clearly not the one who posted the picture im just here to laugh at how naive you appear to be if you aren't trolling

>>17786544
Its really embarrassing you're pretending your not samefagging when you got owned. Retard, you're not even being consistent - you're just utilizing logical fallacies, such as poisoning the well, while not consistently applying such argumentation to sources that fall under your critique, such as wikipedia. You literally have no argument besides conspiratorial non-sense. You're literally a Qanon faggot who gets your news from twitter personalities, and thinks that makes you a better of information than anyone else.

>>17786485
why do you think he's a conspiracy theorist? how is something that's out in the open like this a conspiracy?
>You're the type of retard that reads a headline without understanding the context of an article, and that makes sense, since you literally posted a wikipedia PNG instead of the world web page.
uhhh what's stopping you from just going to wikipedia and checking yourself if you're that skeptical? and if you think this image doesn't illustrate that there's a conflict of interest, then why do you care whether or not the image is forged? this whole reply is distilled retardation

>>17786562
lel i hope the actual anon you were talking to is getting a laugh out of this

>you're just utilizing logical fallacies!
>now let me spend a paragraph angrily building a straw man by which to attack you

>>17786542
You mean '89 when the shanghai workers commune was crushed for the sixth time in the c20th.

>>17786523
Capitalism is the worst of them all. Literally all modern problems stem from capitalism and capitalism stems from technology. Feminism? A reaction to capitalism (more workers were needed). We're all equal bullshit? Another reaction to created the perfect worker drone without an identity. Technology and the resulting capitalism is the cause of all evil and it is perpetuated by the jew.

>>17786575
But, why would I use wikipedia, or trust it, when clearly they have conflict of interests. For you, using your own critique, pretty much any news source you use is illegitimate because they all have "conflicts of interest." More so, this is even a lazier logical fallacy because it is a genetic logical fallacy. The source of information does not imply the information is false. Apparently, if Fox News said the sky was blue; does that mean that claim is not true because they have a conflict interest in denying climate science? You're not intelligent, dude, but, you're trying so hard to be and this is why you come to 4chan and spew your retardation. You need a place where you sound like you have a modicum of thought when you're a moron with too much time on your hands. You're literally faggot doing a 2014 skeptic take from YT about the news, and you're acting enlightened about it. You're a clown, please, keep posting thought, you faggot. I'm entertained.

>>17786579

>>17786579
>lel i hope the actual anon you were talking to is getting a laugh out of this
kek I am. I entered in at the wiki image, so I'm not even really the original guy. He can't accept that everyone thinks he's retarded

>>17786594
Nah, technology is why we live longer and are able to enjoy ourselves more before we die. I love technology. All the other non-sense you complain about is really a result of Christianity, and secular humanism. More so, all the things you complain about aren't problems. I actually love technology, feminism, and I don't mind "equality" because it can be beneficial for me. Capitalism brings me all these things too, and that makes me support it even more.

>>17786597
you know there are sources right? one them, ironically enough, is even to the BBC. Then there's the beautiful juxtaposition of the banner saying "welcome to BBC news, your most trusted news source" on an article explicitly stating that they took part in underhanded practices. It's absurdly comical, especially in the context of the discussion itt.

Does anybody have the screenshots of the Twitter commie LARPers who described the jobs they'd have in the leftist commune?

>>17786722
Why would you unironically go to twitter

>>17782238

> "Nobody is starving in capitalist countries"

Uh, bro, have you been living under a fucking rock this whole time the past year and change or so? There's been breadlines across California and Nevada, Texas, etc. etc.

A lot of people have been starving during this pandemic. Capitalism is just as retarded as Marx's communism meme. Personally, I'd rather just see us embrace social democracy and stop being cucks about it.

>>17786597
the seethe from you all over this thread is hilarious

>>17786153

My God dude I'm pretty far left but this kind of Marxist circle jerking jargon is precisely why nobody takes leftist politics seriously anymore. Just fuck off and kill yourself please. I bet you're not even fucking working class you obnoxious fucking faggot. Christ. I hate college pseudo intellectuals. Try living the fucking reality AND doing the intellectual research next time soi boi.

>>17783615
>The destruction of important farming equipment was common means of protest among peasants who resisted collectivization
Lmao destroyed Marxism in your own defence of it

The communist manifesto doesn't actually mention a lot about communism and is regarded as meme literature, read Das Kapital instead and other works by Marx.

>>17784547
Telling an American he's dumb for having a narrow view of the world isn't an obsession, dumb American.

>nobody mentioned them until you
Actually, they mentioned themselves by showing their ignorance, and I correctly identified them as Americans

>>17786889
>Capitalism = America
Another retard

>>17787011
>homeless people in Europe and other capitalist nations don't exist as well.
You are the definition of takes one to know one.

>>17786485
>This is why you are a conspiracy theorist - you don't critically examine pieces of work;

>>17786337
>the federal government another anti-communist, anti-fascist crackdown.
What language is this
I've read this three times and I don't know what I'm supposed to understand

>>17787034
>Homeless people exist
>CaPiTaLiSm bAd!
You know nothing. Most European countries invest millions in homeless shelters and foodbanks. In the UK, there are only a very small number of people actually sleeping on the streets and they're all drug addicts. Drug addiction isn't solved by communism you spastic.

Why don't you try having more nuance? Capitalism is an economic system, and is compatible with social welfare. Why throw away everything for another attempt at some dumb utopia idea?

>>17782165
It can't.

>>17782165
>How can people get together for large scale projects without a central planning authority or hierarchical structure?
I'm pretty sure that Marx advocates in the Communist Manifesto that means of transportation, the financial system, and other major industries to be concentrated into the hands of the state with an exclusive monopoly. Plus compulsory public education.

Makes you wonder whether Marx indeed won, or whether we're just 40% of the way there, with some countries being like 60% or something.

https://youtu.be/pcPZXViQLv8

>reads communist manifesto
>confused that he doesnt understand where the big red "communism now" button is

your questions alone tell me its all youve read, and its really not enough since its old as fuck and meant to give the most basic understanding of what cmmunism is. you WILL need a central planning authority and hierarchical structure to build full communism, which is what the soviet union and almost all other socialist states did.

>>17787561
>you WILL need a central planning authority and hierarchical structure to build full communism, which is what the soviet union and almost all other socialist states did.
Not Marxism. Maybe Marxism-Leninism, or Stalinism or Maoism. Marxism requires the entire world population of workers to unite without structure.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/

>>17786078
>the answer is there is no doing fuck all without central planning authority or hierarchical structure, and when you are talking about mass confiscating private property and controlling distribution, that centralized power structure needs to be virtually totalitarian in its power,

No actual communist denies this.

>>17782165
Is it any good?

>>17782532
What's your local number? I'm IBEW 112

>>17787713
Then why the fuck would they support it? and why is it sold as some sort of utopia?

>>17787675
>b-but its not pure marxism he said something different
taking what marx said as gospel wont achieve anything. lenin was right in that he understood that an organisational structure needed to be provided for the plores to be liberated. "pure" marxism is borderline worthless nowadays, at least when it comes to how to actually change the world. some region specific application of ML seems a lot more sensible and historically it has been.

>>17787800
Wouldn't it be nice if people weren't starving to death and overworked constantly? Wouldn't it be cool if there was some way to reorganize society so that the burden could be lifted off each individual to an extent? Wouldn't it be cool if people actually gave a shit about their job?

>>17788846
>Wouldn't it be nice if people weren't starving to death and overworked constantly?
because Commies have historically been so good at that lmao
Face it the greatest success stories for those two things are the capitalist welfare states of homogeneous White countries like Scandinavia.

>>17782193
Cope

>>17788934
>because Commies have historically been so good at that lmao
before their revolutions, massive famines were a regular occurence in china and russia. after communists took power, there was one last big famine in both countries, but none after that. god damned burger education.
>Face it the greatest success stories for those two things are the capitalist welfare states of homogeneous White countries like Scandinavia.
ask yourself if that has more to do with their richness in natural resources, imperialism, alliance with big capitalist powers or with whatever bullshit some grifter on youtube said.
is scandinavia such a utopian based and redpilled homogenous white >country or is it flooded with muh evil immigrants who are destroying le west? you cant seem to make your mind up

>>17788846
>Wouldn't it be nice if people weren't starving to death and overworked constantly?
Yeah. That’s why I support killing communists.

>>17789054
Scandinavian countries are becoming shittier in direct proportion to how many immigrants they take in. They are still the closest anywhere has ever gotten to your dream of 'people not starving or being overworked'.

I am not even going to bother with your 'there was one big last famine' take on the genocides in USSR in China

>>17789074
i agree, mass imigration with a lack of integration is making the country worse. have you ever asked yourself WHY they import to many imigrants who then live in mostly shit conditions there and are forced to turn to crime? could it perhaps be that the wealthy elites want to create and grow an underclass which they can pay lower wages? there was that one guy called karl or something who wrote about that, the "reserve army of labor" or something.
life in modern scandinavia is obviously better than 20th century soviet russia, but if your analysis ends there you are fucking retarded. scandinavia and europe generally has been at the top of the global pecking order for centuries.
comparing current russia and the USSR is also unfair given the level of technological advancements, still work satisfaction was better back then and nutrition was better than even america.
>people starving in a normal famine is genocide
ok buddy
maybe keep at least some parts of your burger brain active next time you watch fox, cnn or some liberal think tank funded youtuber.

>>17789186
>could it perhaps be that the wealthy elites want to create and grow an underclass which they can pay lower wages? t
If they were importing eg. Indians, who actually work, then sure. I don't see a lot of 'exploitation of labor' going on in Malmo ghettos. But you are right there are many factors involved in Scandinavian success, my point was just that the only countries to come close to achieving what you want are capitalist.

And purposefully starving people is indeed genocide

>>17788934
But do you think those are the things that we should strive for?

>>17789243
I think the idea of 'what we should strive for' is laughably naive and pointless but if I were a little god-dictator then I would set up society to strive for long-term stability, which is a task that involves flouting many of our current norms and laws.

Scandinavian countries cannot even reproduce their own population by having children, so they are right off the bat disqualified.

>>17787310
I'm not a socialist, but a lot of the people in post-Soviet countries are very open with the fact that they preferred the Realsocialism of old to the crony capitalism, corruption, falling living standards etc. that came after the fall of the Soviet union.

If contemporary American capitalism gets a pass as a sustainable and realistic system why doesn't Soviet Real socialism? The people sleeping and shitting on Skidrow are not that different from the alcoholics in Moldova or wherever and real socialism obviously worked to curtail the problems there.

Once again, I hate niggers, Jews, Muslims and socially progressive values so you may not call me a socialist of any kind.

>>17789299
So you’re taking a positivist position of observation, thinking nothing can be done at an individual or community level to “better society”?

The Manifesto doesn't really deal with the characteristics a future society should have.
Truth be told, there isn't ONE answer. There's been 170 years of theoretical debate, and many instances of practical applications of those ideas, most of them at least partially successful. I suggest you try following some communist blogs or pages on social media (working class history, redfish etc) to keep up. Also, of course, read Lenin.
As for your question, I don't know where you got the idea that there isn't a central authority overlooking production. I think you're looking too far ahead into what Marx calls "communism", whereas you should be focusing on socialism, or the so called intermediate stage.
Here's a starting point if you're curious https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aMsi-A56ds..

Also please, read Lenin

>>17789318
Idk, do you think if you die right this moment it's going to impact the outcome of history? I rather doubt it, but let's say you're one in a 100 million and you end up leading a revolution in your country. Without you would someone else have led the revolution anyway? Will the outcome of the revolution be even vaguely like what you want to achieve?

>>17789237
>If they were importing eg. Indians, who actually work
oh youre already so far gone you think of ethnicities like classes in one of your little videogames. get off 4chan for like a week and itll get better.
>I don't see a lot of 'exploitation of labor' going on in Malmo ghettos
you see at at your local mcdonalds, burger kind, factories... the people in the ghettoes are the reserve army of labor who ensure loyalty from existing emplyees by letting them know there is always someone more deperate willing to work for even less pay.
true, capitalist nations have historically been those at the top, the reasons for which are to numerous and varied to get into right now, but the good quality of life in those countries are because of factors outside of just capitalism. workers rights like weekends, sick leave, maternal leave, decent pay etc had to be fought for (often by communists), against the capitalists. and providing people with things such as universal healthcare go against the core tenants of capitalism.
>purposefully
you know you cant just make shit up right?
there was some hoarding of grain and crop burning. the people who did that were the ones OPPOSED to the soviet rule though.

How does capitalism continue into the future without overpopulating and destroying the planet and ourselves. If everyone doesn't succumb to malaise and kill themselves of course.

>>17789354
>oh youre already so far gone you think of ethnicities like classes in one of your little videogames. get off 4chan for like a week and itll get better.
I know you guys are allergic to the concept of per capita, but you can't expect to be taken seriously by just pretending every population actually acts the same on average
>but the good quality of life in those countries are because of factors outside of just capitalism. workers rights like weekends, sick leave, maternal leave, decent pay etc had to be fought for (often by communists), against the capitalists. and providing people with things such as universal healthcare go against the core tenants of capitalism.
You realize how hilariously fucking dumb your worldview is right. 'When bad thing happen in capitalist country that's capitalism, when good thing happen it's not capitalism'.

And there was a targeted genocide during the Holodomor, you are on the same level as a Holocaust denier quibbling over gas chambers.

>>17789344
Lol, I don’t believe there will be a revolution, I just want to lessen the pain of others. Your great man theory doesn’t apply when I’m talking small scale collectivism.

>>17789398
If you're talking about engaging with your family and community or whatever of course that's a good idea, and pretty much the entirety of plausible ethics. I guess I don't categorize that as political behavior in my mind, maybe the distinction isn't real though.

>>17789450
I hate to be the pomo faggot that says “everything is political” but at that level it is. Supporting your community attacks quite a few of the tendrils of capital. Gardening leads to reduced shopping at restaurants and grocery stores. Group social activity reduces mass consumptive media. Group participation lessens the psychological weight of modern society. People with certain strengths are able to support those with need without resorting to purchasing services. Just as it’s more efficient for a family to live together than as individuals, the same is true for local community and the benefits that come with them.

>>17789496
I guess I don't see your actions there having an appreciable impact on the political structure of society at large, so I don't consider them political. If you were to convince everyone to do as you were doing and localize, then that would be politics, but that's a very different sort of action which involves getting a platform and propagandizing across society, it's not the same as your local engagement.

>>17789388
>I know you guys are allergic to the concept of per capita, but you can't expect to be taken seriously by just pretending every population actually acts the same on average
i and no other leftist is claiming this. the difference is, we know that different groups of people acting differently has material underlying reasons. an arab emigrating into sweden doesnt have the same opportunities, cultural foothold and community as a swede, which is why they act differently. not because of some essentialist notion of race that just handwaves the underlying problem away by assuming that "thats just how they are".
>You realize how hilariously fucking dumb your worldview is right. 'When bad thing happen in capitalist country that's capitalism, when good thing happen it's not capitalism'.
youre quite literally strawmanning.
the fact is, modern appeasements to the workers such as the weekend, fair pay and all kinds of leave run counter to the fundamentals of capitalism and were it not for movements opposed to it, you and i would most likely have to work more than 8 hours a day. i made very specific statements about specific issues, but all you read was "when capitalism bad socialism good". are you even trying to have a conversation?
>And there was a targeted genocide during the Holodomor
ok, where?

>>17789777
>which is why they act differently. not because of some essentialist notion of race
you have exactly no evidence for this, and you refuse all the evidence indicating the contrary
>modern appeasements to the workers such as the weekend, fair pay and all kinds of leave run counter to the fundamentals of capitalism
No they really don't run counter to private property and wage labor.

>>17787713
every single leftist ive ever met has played the "its not real communism" card citing the fact that there is centralized power structures

>>17789777
>material underlying reasons
like their genes?

I'm convinced the "capitalist vs communist" conflict is a fuckin psyop to trap midwits in fights over vocabulary and deliberate and mutual misunderstanding while we get fleeced and enslaved (through debt) by the same rotating cast of child-raping families of elites that have run the show since the industrial revolution. literally nothing is being accomplished against the actually powerful people.

>>17782238
Have you literally never heard of the Great Depression?

>>17786488
>ok but how did they let it get that far? i thought praxis was the method for avoiding this kind of thing? at least thats literally the statement you made when this conversation began

Because the Bolsheviks were a liberal party of capitalists. Look at Lenin's constant critique of the class composition of the Bolsheviks and their bourgeois liberal method of reasoning.

As for why the Russian proletariat didn't succeed, they gave it a damn good shot but allied with liberal bourgeois, like the Bolsheviks.

>>17790586
delet this

>>17789314
What a rollercoaster of a post. Based?

>>17786597
my goodness anon. you are properly retarded, aren't you?

>>17786506
>>17786594
>>17790586
Based af.

>>17782532
>What makes plumbers and builders different than any other service worker?

The former two actually make something useful, whereas the latter is a result of indulgent and wasteful consumerism. We do not need 'coffee shops' or 'delicatessens' or anything of the sort.

>>17793035
Skilled labor is the only thing you can meaningfully organize because it's actually possible to control the supply of skilled labor. You can hire a million illiterate squatemalens as scab labor slaves to serve tamales or pick up fruit and then discard them when they cause problems. The labor supply is effectively infinite, especially when their livelihood is largely subsidized by the society they are imported into. The supply of skilled labor is necessary limited, at least to a greater and more significant degree than unskilled labor, so there's a chance of organizing them. The problem is once they are well taken care of they tend to become soft, decadent, and give up, inch by inch, the control they fought for.

>>17782165
Marx said it was outdated by the time he got to writing Das Kapital. It's literally irrelevent to genuine Marxism (not that communists will ever actually read Marx correctly).

>>17786078
>anarchists have all basically accepted Pragmatism and it's really off putting now

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/wayne-price-anarchism-and-the-philosophy-of-pragmatism

>>17786299
This. Communist rhetoric has made me consider that a far more authoritarian form of capitalism may actually be preferable.

>>17793645
>communist propaganda is a CIA plot to create Fascism
At last I truly see

>>17782606
maybe because all the attempts resulted in usa backed coups ?

>>17782572
>NO IM NOT A HYPOCRITE ITS JUST THAT THWRES NO WTHICAL BLABKABLA MOOOOOM!! NOW BUY ME MORE HUEL MOOOM !!!

>>17782238
are you fucking retarded. do you think all the random little countries you see on the "made in" tags are communist you dunb fuck

Like why can’t everyone want everyone to have healthcare and not starve. It’s not fucking complicated. Prolong death. Christ. What the fuck is wrong with polfags.

>>17782714
Venezuela isn’t socialist.

>>17794379
How dare you belittle a beacon of socialist, anti-imperialist struggle by accusing them of "not being Socialist"?