/lit/ - Literature

>>17761447
who's the slag?

>>17761456
taylor lashae

Pure Theory of Law - Kelsen
Natural Law and Natural Rights - Finnis
The Authority of Law - Raz
The Concept of Law - H.L.A Hart
Taking Rights Seriously - Dworkin

>>17761480
thanks. what should i read first? does it even matter?

>>17761504
Hart then dworkin, then rawls (end)

>>17761447
Not western but Han Fei is really good and Xi Jinping is applying it.

>>17761509
Legalism isn't a philosophy of law.

>>17761480
Cringe

>>17761447
>Thet haircut.
fuck man it's all I need

As for readings in legal philosophy, I would start with classical natural law (Seneca and/or Aquinas), followed by more modern natural law like Hugo Grotius. then read Hobbes, HLA Hart, and John Austin. Ronald Dworkin too.

>>17761521
it only looks good on very attractive women, otherwise it's just a mental illness red flag

>>17761512
Yeah sorry i didn't even bother to think before posting that. Sorry anons.

>>17761535
>it only looks good on very attractive women, otherwise, it's just a mental illness red flag
yeah for sure. But damn if it doesn't look fantastic on french women.

>>17761535
>>17761521
>>17761551
here anons, had one more

>>17761480
GO BACK

>>17761480
Finnis is total shit, literally the worst thing that ever happened to Natural Law - just read Aristotle and Aquinas if you want to understand Natural Law in any meaningful way

>>17761447
These are some sources Danilo Castellano gave me if you want to study Legal philosophy not in the sense of >>17761480
, but in a neothomistic perspective. It will be kinda hard to read them as they are mainly in spanish and italian, though:

A. ROSMINI, Filosofia del diritto (4 voll.), Padova, Cedam, 1969
F. ELIAS de TEJADA, Tratado de Filosofia del derecho Sevilla, Universidad de Sevilla, 1974
D. COMPOSTA, Filosofia del diritto, Roma, Pontificia Università Urbaniana, 1991
D. COMPOSTA, I fondamenti ontologici del diritto (filosofia del diritto II), Roma, Pontificia Università Urbaniana, 1994
M. BASTIT, Naissance de la loi moderne, Parigi, PUF, 1990
F. OLGIATI, La riduzione del concetto filosofico di diritto al concetto di giustizia, Milano, Giuffrè, 1932
F. OLGIATI, Il concetto di giuridicità un san Tommaso d'Aquino, Milano, Vita e Pensiero, 1955

>>17761551
Lashae is a Texan girl who adopted French aesthetics, tho.
As for beginning Phi of Law, very first book you should read should be a History of Law book, whichever one applies to you.
After that I would recommend Montesquieu's Spirit of Law and Henry James Sumner Maine's Ancient Laws.

>>17761447
Just read sociology. Sociology of Law is better than Natural Law and Legal positivism in practically every way. Kelsen is a joke too

Schiavone's history of law

>>17761512
Sure it is, just as Schmitt's decisionism relates to philosophy of law.

>>17761547
Why? I don't like wumaos but it was a valid post.

>>17763325
Valid, she's still cute nonetheless. Thanks for the recs, but I'm already pretty well-versed in legal philosophy (i already gave my own recs in this thread).

>>17761447
Don't start with Rawls, read what legal philosophers actually study:
> Plato's Republic and Laws
> Cicero's Offices and other political writings
> Augustine's City of God
> Aquinas legal and political sections from the Summa
> Machiavelli's political works
> Beccaria's On Crime and Punishment
> Grotius On the Law of War and Peace
> Main works from the contract philosophers (Hobbes, Roussau and Locke)
> Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France
> Toqueville's Democracy in America
> John Austin's The Province of Jurisprudence
> Jeremy Bentham's works
> Hegel's Element's of Philosophy of Right

Reading the above would get you a reasonable foundation to read more modern works. You shoul also study actual legal cases and history.

>>17763904
>Valid, she's still cute nonetheless.
Very much. Insane body, dresses on point, perfect affectation. Women like her makes me think the X-men backstory is true, we have indeed reached a new stage of human evolution, but apparently the only superpower we get is being insanely hot and seemingly never hitting the wall.
>Thanks for the recs, but I'm already pretty well-versed in legal philosophy (i already gave my own recs in this thread).
Yeah, meant to tag OP for that part.

>>17761593

>>17761447
Is there anyone alive who actually likes being a lawyer? I’m in real estate rn and thinking about law school but everyone who talks about the work seems to hate it

>>17763659
Pretty much this. Read Sociology of Law until you understand that it, too, is a joke. Then you will be able to see the Law as the pathetic field it really is and ascend to Heaven.

>>17765266
Don't do it. I always go out of my way to prevent people from falling into the law trap. Don't do it, don't heed the call from the applications form, shut up your inner voice. Don't become a lawyer, don't study this crap, don't waste your money, time and energy on this miserable endeavor. It will kill you inside and it doesn't guarantee a high paying job. The only guarantee after studying law is sadness and bitterness. I have met almost no happy attorneys in my entire life and I've been in the legal field for about 9 years now (counting law school).

The book we read in our jurisprudence class was called:
>Jurisprudence Theory and Context Seventh Edition by Brian H. Bix.
It was short and small, giving broad overview as if it was one of those generic philosophy texts that holds your hand along the way.
Outside of that we also read some of the stuff mentioned >>17761480 and >>17763934
But generally, unless you are talking specifically to a law professor/scholar that focuses on jurisprudence lawyers don't know shit. I made other students cry in my jurisprudence class because 80% of the people in that room were illiterate, uneducated, indoctrinated mercenaries who were ready to feed themselves to the machine at a moments notice.
The problem with threads like these is that there's only ever about 6 lawyers on /lit/ and lawyers don't read. Everyone else who has actually read texts like this aren't lawyers so it's a bunch of wasted effort on their part.
I could try to find the PDFs of primary sources we read in class if youre interested.

>>17763934
>>17765358
Surely the climate you describe is bc you're in America and not working for example in the field of International Law?
Also what are some hidden legal gems (cases) you highly recommend. UK and US

>>17765669
Yep, US. Here were some of my recs from the previous law thread.

Books for law school
>planet law school 2
>getting to maybe
Interesting cases
>texas v johnson oral arguments
>Ford v dodge
>Bethel School District v. Fraser speech
>all Anticanon cases
>citizens United is a hell of a read
Biographies
>Clarence Darrow attorney for the damned
>my life as a radical lawyer william kunstler
Misc
>the nonsense factory
>typography for lawyers

>>17761447
Read Thucydides. The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. All you need to know.

>>17765702
Thanks, will check them out

>>17765711
Based

>>17765702
How important would you say networking is at law school?

>>17761480
You're getting shit on but this is what my philosophy of law curriculum looked like. People who say not to read someone influential because they disagree are touched.
>>17761447
'the philosophy of law' schauer and sinnott-armstrong. That's the textbook we used in my undergrad class.

>>17761447
>>17761593
>>17763325
>>17764643
>>17765065
Is this what they call a Castiza?

>>17765936

No, she's got French and Colombian ancestry.

>>17761447
I've tried reading law books to educate myself, but believe me - if you haven't been educated in a real university you will understand fuckall.

>>17765802
Either it lands you a job or it helps get your name out for a solo practice. There’s not really a downside to being nice and friendly to ever. You meet.

>>17761480
This is a very good list, I don't get why you're getting dissed this much :( I hope you won't take the other guys too seriously anon, you're a good friend :)

>>17766015
French and Colombian sounds like a Castiza.

>>17765287
TTT grad detected.

>>17765287
Older brother (crim def) is happy. Dad (silicon valley patents) was pretty happy (hated the commute, liked the work ok). I think big bro's mom liked it okay too.

>>17766617
It's not far, but castiza is Spaniard mixed with indigenous blood.

>>17766673
castiza is 3/4 spaniard and 1/4 amerindian

>>17761480
Based

>>17766691

"Métisse" would be the closest comparison, then, however the term doesn't refer to a specific % of mix.

>>17761447
>legal philosophy
Thomas Aquinas, Treatise on Law
Everything else is politics.

>>17767025
Natural law is retarded.

>>17766691
What would you estimate this girl is? 80% med and 20% amerindian?

>>17767065
anon, for a lawyer you sure are on 4chan a lot. What gives?

>>17767443
She's 50/50 French and Colombian.

>>17767494
I mostly do transactional stuff and it’s all from home. As business picks up I’m sure I’ll be less frequent with my posting, I hope. As I’m sure you do too.

>>17761447
no

>>17768051
how many hours do you work a week? Is it really as unbearable as they say?

Should I read this guy? Is he relevant?

>>17768248
When I was at a big firm I was working 60+ hours a week.
When I was at a smaller firm it was about 30-40 hours a week.
Right now, because I’m in the process of starting my own firm it feels like I’m working all the time but not working at all.

>>17768577
How did you cope with the 60+ hour weeks? Did you notice the strain of having to work what most people do in 2 weeks in one? What was it like spending on average 16 hours of your day working? Did you even have time to do anything other than sleep and work? How long did you have to endure that? Honestly wtf

>>17769046
60+ a week isn't that terrible desu. I've met lawyers who average 75~80.

>>17761480
This is right on. Maybe Fuller’s The Morality of Law and Dworkin’s Law’s Empire, but that’s it for really canonical texts of modern legal philosophy. I guess Between Facts and Norms by Habermas.

Everything that came before is subsumed by that list. You don’t need to spend a year reading Plato, Aquinas, Kant, and Benthem if you read Hart, Finnis, and Dworkin.

>>17761447
Lynsander Spooner "the unconstitutionality of Slavery"

Fuck law you philosophical pussy

>>17768276
Hannah Ardent said he was super important. Literally the only person who saves republicanism for me. If it weren't for him, I'd be full on anarchist

>>17768577
what are the alternatives to pvt sector law? other than being a prosecutor or public defender? sorry to hijack thread.

>>17761504
Hart -> Finnis -> Dworkin -> Raz

That book by Hart really sets the terms for the entire postwar debate about legal philosophy. It’s the original and more important statement of ‘legal positivism’.

The major school opposing positivism is ‘natural law theory’. If you want to get into the weeds, The Morality of Law by Lon Fuller is the first major natural law response to Hart. After that the book by Finnis stands as the most significant statement of that position.

Dworkin’s work then tries to set out a third position between positivism and natural law theory, called interpretivism. His other major legal theory book is Law’s Empire and that one is also essential reading.

Raz represents the next generation of positivists, who went the furthest in attempting to defend Hart’s basic system but reformulated in light of the criticisms from both natural law theorists and from Dworkin.

The book by Kelson is another statement of legal positivism, but it’s been far more influential in european legal theory, whereas it’s all about Hart in Anglo-american circles.

>>17769117
That's impossible!
What was it like spending on average 16 hours of your day working? Did you even have time to do anything other than sleep and work? How long did you have to endure that? Honestly wtf??!

>>17769208
very helpful. thank you.

>>17769225
Never did it personally, unless you consider working full time + 40 hours of study for the bar.
Wake up at 5h30 every day, work 7 days, cutting back on weekends but still clocking 4~5h each day.
Had one teacher (who was insanely hot) do 50h at her firm, another ~ 30h as a teacher at my university (which was 1h30 away from the city she lived in) and had two kids, which she was raising alone.
Can't talk about how great the kids were but she was really nice and sweet (and fucking hot, did I say?) and she would stay up to like 1am to supervise our study groups despite her insane schedule.

>>17765287
See, Law School was the best for me. First time in my life I was easily good at something (didn't know it at first, but apparently I answer case study exams better than classical ones). I was part of a program because I'm a relay typist where my courses where essentially paid for in exchange for giving my notes to special needs students. Not only did that force me to attend classes, but people quickly noticed I was taking notes verbatum from the teacher and a group approached me to study together and pool our notes. Despite all the warnings my dad had given me about fellow law students, nothing ever went wrong, everyone pulled a respectable weight, and it gave me a tightnit group in each classes.
Everything in my life was absolute mediocrity before Law. After everything was clear and relatively easy.

>>17769046
It would have been fine if I didn't hate my coworkers and the toxic workplace. That smarmy Mormon level business office politik. It was my least favorite job. But the work itself was interesting and engaging, that was the only think that kept be going. And beer.
>>17769207
Every government agency is full of lawyers. Every city/county has a team of lawyers. There's plenty of those types of jobs that take 5 interviews and three months to get.
>>17769208
This feels like it was straight out of my jurisprudence textbook. Good on you friend.
>>17769225
>>17769363
Yeah. Law school teaches you how to work those schedules. I'd spend most days and weekends at the law library when not in class from like 9am to midnight. The bar exam kinda fried me from that lifestyle though. I like having time to actually do things, even if it's just shitpost and online mahjong.

>>17767494
I'm a lawyer too. 4chan got me way deeper into reading and phil in the early 2010s through undergrad and got me through law school

>>17761447
Alain de Benoist - Beyond Human Rights

>>17769141
You have no idea how relieved I am to hear this. I simply had a gut instinct he was foundational and would be nourishing to read

>>17761447
Why don’t you search it up?

>>17769363
>>17769559
bros wtf, I don't think I can do it

>>17770885
I'm in employment law I work about 60 hours, but I also think about others work. In america, and to some extent australia, would you work 70 hours to earn 200k as a 28 yo? I sure as shit would.