/lit/ - Literature

>>17759346
There's nothing more subhuman than caring about the current political climate
Stay in the dirt, hylic

>>17759346
Very true. Nietzsche didn't predict globohomo atheism would become the norm. It's time to return to Christianity.

>>17759346
>>17759367
how can we go back to it when it was the precursor to all the problems we face today

>>17759346
The ubermensch creates their own values, is capable of standing alone and enjoys clean air. All of those things you mentioned are fit for the herd animal, they're ready made and comfortable positions you can adopt and not think about. The ubermensch will not fit into any heretofore existing value system because they will have the strength to create new values.

Either you've not read Nietzsche or you've not read him carefully enough. He can't be reconciled with any big tent political philosophy. These things all existed while he was alive, he was aware of them, and he rejected them.

>>17759418
>>17759378
>>17759367
>>17759363
>>17759346
I hate this board

>>17759346
i can understand playing the game of capitalism but defending it is just bizarre to me
>inb4 name a better system
why? how about i just point out that capitalism isnt perfect lol

>>17759346
Capitalism is the enemy of traditional values, church, and family.

>>17759346
You can’t win in this world, the only hope is salvation and the afterlife

>>17759346
This is obviously retarded, the people who run the international finance cartels are the Ubermenschen

>>17759346
>defending capitalism
This destroys traditional values

>>17759481
>>17759537
Not really, that's cultural marxism. If it weren't for Marx capitalism would be doing just fine today.

Fuck off Ayn Rand psyop

>In the current political sphere, there's nothing more Ubermensch than living by traditional values, defending capitalism, going to church and forming a family.

>>17759442
It's important to defend so that we don't get socialism. People who are concerned with pointing out the "imperfections" of capitalism are generally inadequately concerned with the "imperfections" of its alternatives.
And so far every "cure" is worse than the disease. As far as I can tell it's a settled issue and people need to shut the fuck up and move on. And anyone going on about the "imperfections of capitalism" needs to be given an immediate helicopter ride.

>>17759557
Lmfao you’re a fucking idiot or a boomer. Capitalism is the motor behind progressivism, degeneracy, alienation, mass paranoia and confusion, all the ills of modern society. Capitalism doesn’t care about your family, it wants to dissolve all the obstacles separating the individual from the market. I’m not a pinko faggot and Jews do utilize communist tactics to achieve this but it is not the antithesis to traditionalism

>>17759585
*is the antithesis

>>17759571
when people think they're being drafted into some kind of ideological war it's pretty annoying because they stop being able to admit that the side they've chosen to go whole-hog into might have some problems, even ones that will clearly be disastrous in the long run

>>17759585
Ok dude. Sure. You "hate capitalism" and "hate progressivism." Tell us why progressivism is bad.

>>17759585
>. Capitalism is the motor behind progressivism, degeneracy, alienation, mass paranoia and confusion, all the ills of modern society
define capitalism

hopefully this is bait you fucking mongoloid

>>17759597
Which problems with capitalism am I supposed to be concerned with and what are the superior alternatives to these problems?
Basically, it's not worth worrying about because nothing in our most important problems has a single thing to do with capitalism. Worry about "capitalism" right now makes about as much sense as worrying if you changed the oil in your car as it's heading off a cliff.

>>17759346
Counterpoint.

>>17759346
you got filtered

>>17759615
constant need for growth in a world of finite resources, increasingly dramatic inequality of both outcomes and opportunities, corporate control of the state...
>what are the superior alternatives
Lol, pretty much exactly my inb4 comment from earlier. If you can't start by even admitting there are problems you will certainly never contribute to solving them, as you yourself realize when you start line 2 by saying "nevermind no problems are worth worrying about." That's an a priori conclusion and it just shows your brain is mired in ideology, unlike mine

>>17759653

supporting evidence

>>17759667
how is this is a counterpoint to OP

>>17759346
>The conditions which one would partly have to create and partly utilize for their genesis; the presumptive methods and tests by virtue of which a soul should grow up to such an elevation and power as to feel a CONSTRAINT to these tasks; a transvaluation of values, under the new pressure and hammer of which a conscience should be steeled and a heart transformed into brass, so as to bear the weight of such responsibility; and on the other hand the necessity for such leaders, the dreadful danger that they might be lacking, or miscarry and degenerate:—these are OUR real anxieties and glooms, ye know it well, ye free spirits! these are the heavy distant thoughts and storms which sweep across the heaven of OUR life. There are few pains so grievous as to have seen, divined, or experienced how an exceptional man has missed his way and deteriorated; but he who has the rare eye for the universal danger of "man" himself DETERIORATING, he who like us has recognized the extraordinary fortuitousness which has hitherto played its game in respect to the future of mankind—a game in which neither the hand, nor even a "finger of God" has participated!—he who divines the fate that is hidden under the idiotic unwariness and blind confidence of "modern ideas," and still more under the whole of Christo-European morality—suffers from an anguish with which no other is to be compared. He sees at a glance all that could still BE MADE OUT OF MAN through a favourable accumulation and augmentation of human powers and arrangements; he knows with all the knowledge of his conviction how unexhausted man still is for the greatest possibilities, and how often in the past the type man has stood in presence of mysterious decisions and new paths:—he knows still better from his painfulest recollections on what wretched obstacles promising developments of the highest rank have hitherto usually gone to pieces, broken down, sunk, and become contemptible. The UNIVERSAL DEGENERACY OF MANKIND to the level of the "man of the future"—as idealized by the socialistic fools and shallow-pates—this degeneracy and dwarfing of man to an absolutely gregarious animal (or as they call it, to a man of "free society"), this brutalizing of man into a pigmy with equal rights and claims, is undoubtedly POSSIBLE! He who has thought out this possibility to its ultimate conclusion knows ANOTHER loathing unknown to the rest of mankind—and perhaps also a new MISSION!

Have you found your new mission, /lit/?

>>17759598
>>17759606
Lolbertarians being pedantic as always. I don’t hate capitalism, I hate globalism. Progressivism is bad because it gives in to mans drive to become God, to defy nature and pervert the natural order

>>17759671

peterson presented himself to the world as a virtuous guru while having a benzo addiction, raising a whore of a daughter, and openly challenging people to academic debates without actually reading any of the source material. in short, he's a fraud

>>17759679
>it gives in to mans drive to become God, to defy nature and pervert the natural order
There's literally nothing wrong with this.
>n-noooo muh natural order!!!
How cucked do you have to be to even care about this shit?

>>17759571
>socialism
Oh you mean the government trying to better the lives of it’s citizens? That sounds good to me. How do I, an average person, benefit from the deregulation sociopathic billionaires? Lately I’ve been thinking back on that crock of shit Reagan sold: “tickle down economics.” But the wealth never trickled down! Wealth disparity has been growing at an alarming rate since!
>And anyone going on about the "imperfections of capitalism" needs to be given an immediate helicopter ride.
So if you critique the government you should be killed eh? What would Jesus do anon? You are trad right?

>>17759671

> The Crown will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that despite holding the best intentions and living by trad values, defending capitalism, church, family and other traditional hierarchies, the accused still managed to raise a complete psychopath hoe of a Chaos Dragon daughter.

>>17759666
>constant need for growth in a world of finite resources
We are not running out of anything. An economist made a challenge, to name any three resources over any length of time and to see if we would run out of them. Some professors took him up on it. Ten years later at the conclusion of the challenge, not only did we not run out but the known reserves in the world had increased.
>increasingly dramatic inequality of both outcomes and opportunities
Vague gibberish.
>corporate control of the state...
The state controls corporations, not the other way around. This is why corporations all have HR departments and huge amounts of useless diversity hires and incompetent female CEOs. If corporations were left alone they would just try to make money. Instead the state inserts itself more and more into business.
>Lol, pretty much exactly my inb4 comment from earlier. If you can't start by even admitting there are problems you will certainly never contribute to solving them, as you yourself realize when you start line 2 by saying "nevermind no problems are worth worrying about." That's an a priori conclusion and it just shows your brain is mired in ideology, unlike mine
You are free from ideology, yet everything you are saying is commie boilerplate. My point is not that capitalism is "perfect" but that every supposed problem that gets blamed on it, like yours above, is almost always commie nonsense and their solutions create problems that didn't even exist before, since they misidentified the problem in the first place.
And none of the problems you mentioned are anywhere near the top pressing issues we are facing.

>>17759696
What an awful post. Please go back to r/chapotraphouse.

>>17759690
Do you not notice how miserable people are? Look at their soulless empty eyes. They do not know what is good for them. Your hedonism will be your downfall of mankind, the only salvation is through Jesus Christ and living in a natural state centered around service to family and others, not jerking off and playing video games 12 hours a day, not working at an office job, you are filthy and need to be cleaned

>>17759716
>r/chapotraphouse
Been dead for nearly a year now.

>>17759679
>pedantic
No I need a definition because Commies for example define Capitalism as pretty much the Demiurge

do you mean property rights and wage labor?

>>17759685
That isn't an argument against the OP, it's an argument against Peterson

>Do you not notice how miserable people are? Look at their soulless empty eyes. They do not know what is good for them. Your hedonism will be your downfall of mankind, the only salvation is through Jesus Christ and living in a natural state centered around service to family and others, not jerking off and playing video games 12 hours a day, not working at an office job, you are filthy and need to be cleaned

>>17759696
How do you feel about the Federal Reserve and mass immigration

>>17759707
Brother laissez-faire capitalism is what fostered rootless elites to sell their own countries out for the profit of global corporations. Libertarian economics are what stole your trad way of life, that is the source of your woes. The commie boogeyman was propaganda drummed up by right waving pundits decades ago. The same right wing pundits promoting virulent capitalism to line their own pockets. I’m sorry, you got played.

>>17759367
How fucking retarded can you be, the guy known to talk about the death of spirituality in the west and the rise of nihilism didn't talk about how to overcome a society full of degenerate atheist?

>>17759725

>>17759731
I more so mean our modern vampiric capitalism, global market demands soaking up all the capital and manufacturing capability of a nation before it moves on to the next leaving it a hollowed out husk. I’m not a commie, I believe in private property, markets, but markets that serve the people, if regulation is needed to do that so be it, even if it means paying more for consumer goods

>>17759760
There's no actual argument in here worth replying to. Just the same commie lies. This is why it's not worth putting effort in when debating them. Debating commies is like trying to grab smoke. They will never actual sit down and discuss the nuts and bolts. They just move from one lie to another.

>>17759367
No one is returning to Christianity. If anything it'll turn into general moralism and spirituality, which it's kind of already been in the West for a while now.

>>17759787
Don’t wanna sell your country out to international finance? What are you a fucking COMMIE!!!??!!! Fuck you kike

>>17759789
People want a specific alternative to the current state of vague moralism. Christianity is one of the only such options. People want specific moral rules and guidelines. Not ones that change every week and are governed only by a vague sense of 'goodness.'

>>17759749
>How do you feel about the Federal Reserve
All banking should be nationalized
>and mass immigration
Yeah it’ll create problems but I’m also aware it’s used to fear monger by soulless “conservative” politicians. Realistically, there’s nothing that can be done to stop it, our shitty government will do as it pleases. The US is lost from what I can tell.

>>17759798
The implication being that it is international financiers, big business owners, and CEOs who are responsible for our current state of affairs. I would be happy to debate that issue, but I am not going to argue as if I already agree with your communist axioms that it is Big Capital responsible for our problems. I don't agree with that, and it is tiresome to have every debate with communists go as if everyone already agrees with all the basics of communism.

>>17759787
Please send more young white men to die for us, please, ok?
T. Israel

>>17759787
You’re lost, grasping at specters. I’ll say a prayer for you tonight.

>>17759760
yeah i didnt wanna take the effort to seriously reply again but youve pretty much nailed it, thanks
>>17759787
>Just the same commie lies.
come on dude, you're stuck in a mental construct here, it's ideology and it's blinding you, embarrassing really

>>17759815
Just because you’re anti-capitalist doesn’t mean you have to be communist. There’s such a thing as nuance anon.

>>17759830
>come on dude, you're stuck in a mental construct here, it's ideology and it's blinding you, embarrassing really
And yet no argument is being made.
I made a long post with numerous arguments and so far have received nothing but content-less replies.

>>17759760
>laissez-faire capitalism is what fostered rootless elites to sell their own countries out for the profit of global corporations.
you're missing rather a lot of stuff in this story, especially the role of banks for the past few hundred years

>Hail my fellow cisgendered heterosexual right wing white males! Don't we just hate those evil capitalists who are destroying our country? We should band together to overthrow them and redistribute the means of production. No, we're not communists. We're just as concerned with you at the moral decay of our society! What do you say, comrades? We promise when it's over we won't turn on you and murder you and your families like we did last time.

>>17759847
Sure, my post isn’t a comprehensive critique of the situation. I personally think all banking should be nationalized.

>>17759815
I’m not a commie and I’m interested in hearing what you believe is the cause, go for it

>>17759867
Weak straw man tb h

>>17759867
I mean the guy basically just sounds like a Fascist, not a commie. You can tell a commie by their seething hatred of the kulak and their desire to criminalize all wage labor

>>17759845
even the form of your replies is stock, "not an argument," what is that a molyneux line? wake UP. i already tried making points, it's clearly not something you're even open to

>>17759880
The cause is the ideology of progressivism. Which is the ideology of the US State and is being forced on business rather than vice versa. Business cannot rule because businesses are inherently in competition with each other. Business will always be at the mercy of the state. Right now the state is fucking business hard with progressivism. That's basically the gist of it.

>>17759901
It's not a new argument, it's stupid and transparently wrong and I doubt you even believe it. It's something commies say to pretend to be on the same side as rightists. If you can't be bothered to respond to my arguments why should I give any more attention to yours?

>>17759346

he insidiousness of Jordan Peterson lies in that he simultaneously reduces timeless wisdom to self-help jargon and common sense advice while also affirming the righteousness and desirability of modernity. All of the problems that Peterson tackles are themselves just various manifestations of modernity itself, but nothing he talks or writes delves into this larger problem or how to deal with it. To the contrary, he takes religious texts that contain profound wisdom and teachings passed down through the ages and uses them as corporate bug-man self-help advice for kids who weren't raised properly. Peterson low-key pushes a mythos that western society in modernity is fundamentally just and a good thing and that aside from some irrational, stupid and greedy people that you have to deal with that everything is okay in principle.

This couldn't be more wrong. Since the emergence of civilization most of the them were united by religious traditions teaching metaphysical knowledge. All the problems of the western mentality and society stem from the loss of this. Christ, the Neoplatonists and to some extent the Hermetics and certain Greek mystery cults all had it too but the Church eventually became an encrusted coffin of doctrine with no accompanying realizations to be had hence why it failed to prevent modernity from arising in the west. Without being connected to any higher understanding in any significant amount among it's intellectual elite, western society has ever since the renaissance has in free fall accompanied by materialism, nihilism, scientism and various other forms of spiritual and cultural degeneration. Peterson affirms all this as good by buying into the faulty idea of the linear progression of civilization and humanity and by shilling it to his unaware fans.

He peddles self-help like it's some transcendent philosophy and he critiques philosophical traditions like Marxism and Deconstructionism based on really flawed (and at this point almost certainly willfully ignorant) premises. JP is probably qualified to talk about psychology because he has a PhD in psychology and has had a clinical practice for however many years, has work published, etc. But he also seems to think he is qualified to talk about every subject and he's just... not. People think he should be a source of authority on society but that's not how this shit works. I've heard professors say some pretty dumb shit before. You can spend years specializing in one field and not know anything about another. If you think JP is a great intellectual of our time name five other currently writing public intellectuals with the same level of credentials as JP whose work you have critically engaged with. I'll be waiting. But somehow I think you are just as loathe to actually engage with thinkers you disagree with as Jordan "Post-modern Neomarxism" Peterson.

>>17759958
Didn't read lmao

>>17759922
I don’t see the state pushing minority quotas or even publicly scolding corporations for rascism. If anything it’s corporations like Amazon who are the quickest adopters of the latest wokeisms. And again, I’m not seeing the state branding those wokeisms and forcing them on corporations.

>>17759986
>I don’t see the state pushing minority quotas
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article246016865.html
Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law on Wednesday aimed at compelling public corporations headquartered in California to appoint minority or LGBTQ directors to their boards of directors.

It mirrors legislation signed by former Gov. Jerry Brown in 2018 that requires California-based corporations to appoint women to their boards of directors.

“When we talk about racial justice, we talk about empowerment, we talk about power and we need to talk about seats at the table,” Newsom said before signing the bill.

The new law, Assembly Bill 979, directs corporations to appoint leaders from under-represented communities defined as people who identify as Black, Latino, Native American, Asian American, Pacific Islander, native Hawaiian or native Alaskan. Companies also can comply with the law by appointing directors who self-identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.

The law requires corporations to have at least one director from an under-represented community by the end of 2021. Additionally, corporations with more than four directors, but fewer than nine, would require a minimum of two diverse directors

>>17759986
Corporations are always substantially behind the latest cutting edge of woke coming out of the internet/ universities. Indicating they are not the ones responsible for it.

>defending capitalism
>traditional values

>>17760013
Ok fair enough, I’m not saying it’s big corporation’s fault for everything, it’s also the fault of politicians who promote laissez-faire policies so those corporations can gain power that isn’t checked by government. These people oftentimes go to the same schools, run with the same social circles, and do favors for each other. They’re both deserving of blame.

>>17760231
Fucking commies. You can show them evidence of the state being responsible for things and they will concede that 'ok yeah I guess the state giving corporations too much free reign because they're friends is a problem.'
Examine your first principles. They are all wrong. There is a reason communism always completely fails. No communists ever examine their first principles.

>>17760129
Yea the universities are really where this shit is cooked up and there’s a delay in the transfer of information but all those tech ceos are Ivy League-educated so they all adopt the progressive consensus eventually.

>>17760242
>No communists ever examine their first principles.
> my first principles
> USA bad, USSR bad
> nukes, dolphin and ayyyys good
Simple as

>>17760242
I’m agreeing with your point that the state is infected with progressivism but so are corporation ceos. They’re all part of our elite class and our elite class fucking sucks — that’s what I’m saying. And I’m not even communist, tho Marx made some cogent points. If you want an accurate picture of the world quit feeling the need to chain yourself to one ideology. There’s no transcendental rule saying you can’t pick accurate critiques made by a thinker and discard their false ones. You can literally do whatever you want, it’s pretty fun honestly

>>17760281
I am not "chained to an ideology." Capitalism is not an "ideology" and the fact that you think it is, combined with the million other Marxist shibboleths in your posts makes me think you consider Marx to have more than "a few" good ideas. Marxist entryists always claim to agree with you and then try to convince you that your ideas, properly understood, are actually Marxism.

>>17759346
>the current political sphere
stopped reading there

>>17760242
>you can show them evidence of the state being responsible for things and they will concede that 'ok yeah I guess the state giving corporations too much free reign because they're friends is a problem.'
One piece of evidence does not a rule make. I could go on twitter and find a half dozen examples of corporations cow-towing to progressive drivel without a hint of "state-backing" and make the opposite argument with just as convincing evidence.

>>17760315
you absolute fucking mental deficient. Capitalism isn't your ideology, anti-communism is. You're reading into shit that isn't there. You're accusing random retards on the internet of being marxist because they think that laying all blame for anything you perceive as negative at only the foot of the state is reductive. There's plenty of fucking blame to go around you absolute cretin. Go back to whatever ideological shithole you crawled out of, and stay there.

Fucking brainlets. You can show them evidence of them being ideologues and they will concede that 'ok yeah i guess viewing the world through an ever-narrowing lens will leave me vulnerable to exploitation by people smarter than me.' Examine your first principles. They are all wrong. There is a reason ideology always completely fails. No ideologues ever examine their first principles.

>>17759425
What's wrong with >>17759418?

>>17760315
Well this actually gets into an important point Marx makes when he says all ideology is mystification. That’s what it fundamentally is. So yeah capitalism can be an ideology so far as it’s misleading the proletariat from the truth. Of course the deep irony is that Marx claimed his philosophy was a scientific truth which led the communists in his wake to believe they had transcended ideology. They clearly did not, and Marx’s work isn’t completely correct but it’s still constructive.

>>17759346

>Things are getting to confusing for us midwits
>Let all agree upon a lie (one we already out grew) and stick to that.

Nothing more pathetic than a conservative clawing at yesterday because he is that afraid of tomorrow.

>>17759363

Hahaha, you use 4chan.

>>17759346
You are protesting too much

>in the current political sphere
what political sphere? the political sphere is inaccessible. what is politics happens behind closed doors.

>>17759557

>>17759346
Several of those concepts contradict each other, so I am not sure what you are on.

>nothing is more transcendent than conforming to the status quo and believe in nothing
Lobsterism is a mental disorder

>>17759346
Peak sheep mentality: following coward ideologies and then making mental gymnastics to justify to yourself that you're being revolutionary

>>17759346
lol this is amazing bait

>>17759346
>traditional
>capitalism
>church
You can't have all three.

>>17759367
>Very true. Nietzsche didn't predict globohomo atheism would become the norm.

What about the doctrine of the Last Man? It could just as easily be the doctrine of the bugman.