/lit/ - Literature

>>17753784
>if you lose a war, that means your ideology has been debunked

>inb4 why didn't you post this on /pol/?

Because /pol/ outside of a few exceptions is made up of double digit IQ schizos who will just blame everything on da jooos.


Also, I forgot to add:

>Libertarianism
Moral degenerates. Freedom is not as important as order is and when people are free to do what they want and absent a strong government / moral authority they become selfish, atomized degenerates.

Ideology is a spook

>>17753784
You've brushed everything aside after a cursory glance
You sound lile a fussy child

>>17753784
It's a waste of time to have an "ideology." Just have perspectives.

>>17753784
>>Socialism/Marxism
>Too egalitarian and utopian, it's supporters are degenerates and low T weaklings, pink haired mentally ill snowflakes etc.
Cope virgin.

>>17753784
anarcho-transhumanism

>>17753850
Why is it that fascists who adhere to an ideology that promotes and celebrates youth, strength, virility and masculinity almost never exemplify this ideal?

>>17753784
>political ideology
That in and of itself is not correct. Go outside

>>17753784
>What is the correct political ideology, /lit/?

Correct for what purpose?

>>17753918
>modern day marxists are in any way comparable to soviet union Chads
[X] Doubt

>>17753931
Correct as in based on scientific facts, promoting beauty, strength, unity and truth. Able to gain power some day to replace the degenerate political status quo.

>>17753890
The character limit prevents me from going in depth.

>>17753961
>Correct as in based on scientific facts,

No ideology is scientifically verifiable

>promoting beauty, strength, unity and truth.

Why should they

>Able to gain power some day to replace the degenerate political status quo.

And how do you know that the next status quo isn't as degenerate, and after all , degenerate for which metric?

>>17753784
Ideologies are empty. Every nation has its own cultural-historical geist that determines how it thinks and perceives the world.

>>17753784
>Am I just too blackpilled or is there really no good, coherent political ideology?
It's actually liberalism, but /lit/ will never admit this because it's not contrarian or cool to say it.

esoteric cavemanism

Animist algoritmic governance, obviously

As soon as you devote yourself to one ideology, you lose. Having "an ideology" means that you no longer have to think for yourself. Instead of asking "what do I think about X?", you can ask "what does [ideology] say about X?". I know it's comfy to conform so that you can fit in with the group, but the image you posted should indicate that you know better than to simply conform. Develop a nuanced view of the world. Decide what you think about every issue that concerns you. This will break normies' brains when they try to talk to you about politics, but it's still the only way to avoid being a blind follower.

>>17753784
>>17753923
>>17753784
>>17753923
because there are very few genuine fascists alive today
your perception of fascism is that of the post-1945 liberal paradigm, and you believe it impossible to see any other way
if you seriously think CIA asset skinheads represent fascism, you don't know what fascism is

>>17754013
>IT WASNT REAL FASCISM!!!!
Dilate

>>17754013
it isn't fascism*
it was before 1945 tho

>>17753998
>just be yourself bro and consume more product
Yeah... I'm gonna pass on liberalism, thanks

>>17753861
>who will just blame everything on da jooos.
That's actually a sign of their intelligence.

>>17754028
>>just be yourself bro
This is supposed to be a bad thing? You want the government to give you a personality too?
>and consume more product
You're not forced to be a consoomer.

>>17753784
>9FAG

>>17753784
Caesarism

>Fascism
Has historically failed, is too extreme, too autistic and most people who support it are cringeworthy losers.

You don't know what Fascism is

egoitism

anything i dont like is a spook

>>17754068
See: >>17754020

>>17753784
>>17754068
like what the fuck makes fascism "extreme" but not any other nascent ideology?
Marxist-Leninism wasn't extreme?
The French Revolution wasn't extremism?
come on man

>>17754072
It isn't a political ideology (despite being correct).

>>17754044
Liberalism over-emphasizes individual liberty without acknowledging that certain behaviors and lifestyles can be destructive to society.

>>17753998
retard, read picrel
>>17754013
dude, fascists were always whores of the rich, claiming otherwise is just retarded idealism. Read Michael Parenti´s "Blackshirts and reds" and become a tankie instead.

>>17753784
You have the most one-dimensional, reductionist, simplistic takes on ideologies possible, which screams that you are a teenager who discovered politics in 2016. For example, you are mentally retarded enough to think Conservatism is ultimately about economy, while the original communists were as conservative as its humanly possible, and Fascist government are equally as conservative as they are domineering over the economy, curbing any economic freedom, but that would escape a mind so philistine it even gives anarcho-primitivism any acknowledgement, or act like a classical upper class cracker teen from industrialized first world countries and bemoan about capitalism.

It all checks out, you're mentally retarded. Never speak of politics again as long as you live.

>>17754082
Every ideology is extreme before it becomes the status quo. In America, revolutionary/militia ideologies were considered admirable and normal, but now that a ruling class is established, these views are demonized.

>>17754099
>dude, fascists were always whores of the rich, claiming otherwise is just retarded idealism
lol this is marxist cope bro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfHGLcRz-P8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM8pHob4-e8

>>17753869
Rejecting ideology is an ideology

>>17754091
>certain behaviors and lifestyles can be destructive to society.
Yeah and those aren't allowed. Racemixing and gay people aren't destructive to society /pol/cel.

>>17753784
>muh ideology
>I need to join a preexisting collective that roughly fits my beliefs already or otherwise I don’t feel validated
Kill yourself because you’re ngmi.

>>17753784
>no job
>no job
>have never even had a gf
>no kids obviously
>don't follow fashion
>have mutliple deviant fetishes
>walk on the grass all the time
>watch tv? what do you think I am, a Boomer?
>pirate films, videogames and books all the time
>consoom with reckless abandon
Why yes, I am a rebel, how could you tell?

>>17753784
>>17753998
>>17754013
>>17754068
China right now is basically Fascist and it's kicking the west's ass

>>17754134
>gay people aren't destructive to society
Tell that to Weimar republic degenerate

>>17753784
Anyone who isn't a centrist is larping

>>17754150
No it isn't, it's kicking the west's ass because socialism actually works properly and better than capitalism when America doesn't intervene.

>>17753784
Classical liberal. Take it or leave it, bub

>>17754136
>me above ideology me so smart

>>17753784
What do you get on 8values?

>>17754168
China is state capitalist not socialist dumbass

>>17754158
It's actually heteronormativity that's a degeneration.

>>17753923
most fascists I know are really into bodybuilding, the point where it's not even reasonable anymore and they have retarded meme diets like eating only raw eggs
you might be thinking of school shooting virgins which isn't really the same thing

>>17753923
Just like how retards who pretend to be pro working class are lazy leeches on welfare

>>17753784
Join the OmniLiberal movement

>>17753784
There really is no good political ideology. Now go back to >>>/pol/

You don't have to pick a side.

>>17753861
>We need a daddy government with self-appointed authority to unethically and immorally force interactions on people with no consent or capacity for temrination, so it can control everybody's civil and economic liberties and self-ownership, controlling how people can live their lives because otherwise they might just do things that affect my neuroticisms, paranoias and individual sensibilities.

>>17754182
China is socialist. It's still mostly a shithole and I wouldn't want to live there and I doubt they'll succeed in their supposed mission but whatever

>>17753784
Doesn't matter, leftism and liberalism has won because it has the numbers and power

>>17754223
You don't know anything about economics
China abandoned socialism decades ago because it leads to starvation

What literature work you hoping to discuss in this off-topic thread?

>>17754190
Gymbros tend to be ugly incels who only get into lifting because they (erroneously) think this will get them pussy.

>>17754231
>leftism
No
>liberalism
Yes

Neoreactionary ethnonationalist anarcho-capitalism with characteristics of an absolute monarchy, elements of feudalism and fascist tendencies. Embrace capital, it's inescapable

>>17754239
They have a vanguard party leading a planned state sector (commanding heights) in conjunction with a much larger, but more peripheral, market sector that is pressured through the state apparatus to cooperate with plans. It's socialist. I don't consider their model all that good as their society has been more or less captured by the same instrumentalism that's driving Western society into the ground, but again whatever. Also their society is culturally vapid and politically repressive

>>17754278
cyberbasado

>>17754064
Unfathomably based

>>17753784
All ideologies are dead just be normal

>>17754283
>politically repressive
This is a good thing. The average person is low IQ and shouldn't be able to do what they want, and high IQ people don't care about much other than intellectual activities which means they won't do any degenerate stuff.

>>17754068
What is fascism?

>>17754103
>Conservatism is ultimately about economy
That's not real conservatism guise! Nice no true Scotsman fallacy

>>17754103
>the original communists were as conservative as its humanly possible,
ESL detected. Also, no the original communists weren't conservative. Communism first gained ground in Russia where the bolscheviks had to appease a reactionary feudal population (who indeed were social conservatives) but that doesn't mean the bolscheviks were conservatives themselves.

Historically illiterate fool. Opinion dismissed.

>>17754264
not really lol
post body?

>>17754330
>Historically illiterate fool. Opinion dismissed.

>>17754304
Maybe. But I strongly suspect you or I would dislike it if we had to actually live there, so I don't think it matters too much at the moment.

>>17754330
>That's not real conservatism guise! Nice no true Scotsman fallacy

This is the most retarded response I've seen on 4chan in a long time and the competition is fierce. You're being told that conservatism is first and foremost about upholding traditional customs, beliefs and institutions rather than economic models and your response is a pathetic attempt to appropriate an anti-communist adage, when there is no particular conservative system being described to be pointed as "not being true conservatism".

You're as retarded as a dog, treating you as such would be the only measure of justice in this Earth.

>Communism first gained ground in Russia where the bolscheviks had to appease a reactionary feudal population (who indeed were social conservatives) but that doesn't mean the bolscheviks were conservatives themselves.
>They were acting conservative but they aktchually weren't because in their hearts they didn't even like it

Nice self-refutation, retard.

>>17753784
People are different, they prefer different societal arrangements.
The political system should allow them to make these choices on individual basis - we're are still in the fucking middle ages politically.

>>17754038
/pol/tard detected

>>17754429
This
We should just let everyone live to their values but unfortunately some people want to shove theirs down everyone's throats

>>17754363
>he thinks meme are arguments
Kek

>>17754404
>You're being told that conservatism is first and foremost about upholding traditional customs, beliefs and institutions rather than economic models

Maybe that's what conservatism used to be that time is long past. Modern day conservatism is just about worshipping the free market and a belief in American exceptionalism. Definitions of words change over time, retard.

>>They were acting conservative but they aktchually weren't because in their hearts they didn't even like it

>Nice self-refutation, retard.

Your reading comprehsion is very poor. I said they appeased the peasant plebs. I didn't say they acted conservative. Conservatives would actually have upheld the Tsarist regime and Christianity. The bolscheviks did the opposite.

>>17753891
I was about to write something like "damn you have a point, I'm a perspectivist now" but I looked it up and perspectivism is a real thing.

>>17754404
>if the plebs of a country have a certain ideology, this must mean the ruling class also have that ideology.

This is not even a midwit take.

>>17753784
Classical Civic Republicanism

Seethe more you authoritarian cuck

>>17753784
Marxism is not an ideology, it also happens to be the most accurate.

>>17754172
I didn't take that test but on the political compass test I get Auth left.

>>17753784

>>17754465
>>17754478
>if the plebs of a country have a certain ideology, this must mean the ruling class also have that ideology.
If they are appeasing the plebs, then yes, specially because an absolutist centralized government that more or less forcefully took power has a choice whether it will or not, but Communism has always been about populist demagogy.

>>17754500
>it also happens to be the most accurate
It is based on ignoring reality

>>17754501
Political compass test is terrible. It gives everyone left wing

>>17753890
He is working on an infographic

>>17754514
Based
Reject ideology
Return to monke

>>17754264
Tf are you talking about faggot?

>>>/pol/ all of you faggots can go back

Literature discussion or GTFI

>>17754465
>Modern day conservatism is just about worshiping the free market
>and upholding religious institutions
>and upholding nationalistic sentiments that are opposed to cosmopolitan approaches
>and being against overtly liberal attitudes towards sex (which is conservation of conservative custom)
>and being generally opposed to the insertion of trans people into the mainstream acceptance (which again is conservation of custom)
>and being opposed to subversive social movements like feminism and racialist movements

kinda like conservatism is still the same nowadays as it was in the days of yore

>>17753784
FAGGOT OP FUCK OFF GO BACK AND FUCK YOU

>>17753784
>What is the correct political ideology
Simple: does it allow women whoring around, kikes, niggers, trannies, racemixing, fags, porn and atheism? Then it isn't the correct one, simple as.

>>17754564
any books about this?

>>17754590

>>17754583
Go back to the Facebook, retard. Go get banned there.

>>17754608
You know it's true anon. Name one positive thing that has spawned from any of the cancer that I named.

>>17754525
On the contrary, it works precisely by eliminating anything that is not quantifiable.

>>17754607
Have you read any of them? If so which one is worthwhile discussing first? Tell me about the ideas, and the quality of the manner in which the ideas are expressed. And don't respond with only images, retard, this is the literature board and you will show respect.

>>17754583
Honestly, pretty much this. I'm sorry but I dislike black people very much, and would rather not have them in my country. Nor subversive, psychopathic, destructive Jews either.

>>17754500
Why isn't it an ideology

>>17754617
How about you stick your fingers up a dead dogs arse and lick them because germs aren't real and then just fucking die, good plan or no?

>>17754642
So much for the tolerant left.

>>17754629
I've read some of them and I would discuss them but you've been awfully impolite, so I shall remove myself from here.

>>17754632
Because Marxism is analysis, it has no ideals, beliefs or morality.

/lit/izens fucking RISE UP

>>>/pol/ btfo
Facebook refugees BTFO
Faggots btfo
Twitter screen grab OP btfo

LITERATURE OR GTFO

Marxism is too quixotic. That's the term I was thinking of but couldn't remember, that's a better term than utopian.

>>17754654
Fuck off faggot with your gay strawmanning.

>>17754669
Have you even read Don Quixote?
Have you even read Utopia?

>>17754660
>no ideals, beliefs
Uh yes it does

>>17753784
A pragmatic liberalism is the only workable position. Leftism is about trying to impose a form of justice/equity which just breeds resentment and destabilizes things but rightism is about defending tradition and individual property rights which are inherently not mutually workable and always destabilizes itself. Only a form of liberalism without any care about tradition or attempt to right historic wrongs and largely indifferent to "moral hazard" can keep on truckin' because it's not ideologically rigid

>>17754500
>Marxism is not an ideology, it also happens to be the most accurate.

>>17754701
No, you are confusing it with the various socialisms.

You could argue that socialism and capitalism are very broad, and fascism is more specific (like Marxism) so the comparison becomes fuzzy.

A broader, less well-defined and more flexible choice could be defined as third-positionism. Essentially, economic leftism (broadly conceived) and social conservatism (broadly conceived).

This could be a mix of centre-left economic policy and very conservative social policy, or very left-wing economic policy with moderate social conservatism, etc.
An example would be social welfare or tax breaks to families who have children.

>>17754740
Shut up

>>17754443
Jude detected.

>>17754740
What is the Marxist definition of ideology

>>17754091
Have you actually read liberal works? Like Rousseau or Locke or pre-cursors like Hobbes? They address this.

>>17754750
Please provide evidence that this this post is relevant to the designated purpose of this board.

>>17754719
t. keeps pictures of presumably actual faggots on his computer

>>17754794
Lol, why are you singling me out?
Anyway: because this is a discussion on political philosophy.

>>17753784
Neoconservatism obv. Is this even worth discussing?

Look at every issue the free world is dealing with today.

Violent leftist movements organizing in public. Geez, if only there was some group of people calling for action on that issue.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/irving-kristol/civil-liberties-1952-a-study-in-confusiondo-we-defend-our-rights-by-protecting-communists/

Open access to harmful and addictive substances such as pornography? Geez, if only there was some group of people calling for action on that issue.
https://www.nytimes.com/1971/03/28/archives/pornography-obscenity-and-the-case-for-censorship-pornography.html

>>17753784
>ideology
Look buddy, the most important thing you need to understand if you want to seize power is that the ideology you put into the masses cannot be the same software you put into your own head and those of your inner circle. The mass ideology, the esoteric doctrine, must promote the sacrifice of ones material interest for the greater good of the ideology, and the exoteric doctrine of the inner circle must promote the absolute collective will to power of the party. Your beliefs must promote the seizure of greater social power and material wealth by the party. It does not matter if you like the aesthetic; if it is useful in promoting the interests of the party you must foist it upon the masses. You, personally, must identify yourself and your personal interests with those of the party and the doctrine.

The structure of the party must be a small organization of men who have their shit together personally and financially, but believe wholeheartedly in the exoteric doctrine and the need to protect it from outsiders. They are intelligent and literate, so that they can read and write materials that spread and reinforce the doctrines. All of these men must be focused on advancing careers in government, banking, media, or military & state security forces. They must openly espouse the exoteric doctrine and use it to promote themselves and other party members. Anyone in a position of power must work to fill the lower ranks of his organization with members of the party who have been indoctrinated into the party's secret ideology.

>>17754763
The same as the common definition.

>>17754820
Those are just standard conservative bemoans, the neo aspect is the idea of foreign obligations to the world as a whole and universalizing the political project

>>17754815
>singling me out?
You are posting as Anonymous.

This thread is off topic and I'm alerting you if you've any sense for it.

Just take the nationalism pill. Its not as grating as fascism and it has a historical precedent

>>17753784
Been on 4chan since 2009 and have always hated that picture so fucking much. It perfectly exemplifies why I hate the average cringe western white male who has zero ability to consider anything beyond their immediate gratification. Don’t want to have kids? Fine, probably best you don’t because you’re likely an aspergic sociopath who would molest them but autistic whites have to formulate a political identity around not wanting or being unable to sustain a long term relationship like MGTOW.

Yeah bro having a family that loves you really makes you a slave. Truly being a worthless non-productive neet that alienates everyone around him is freedom and cool, retarded Incel faggot

Also OP you sound like a friendless loser. Try reading books and come to your own conclusion instead of adopting an easy political worldview to explain the complexity of the modern world. You won’t because you’ve got steam games and anime to play at your mother’s house but that is unironically what you should do.

>>17754904
?

Fascism has a historical precedent you fucking retard lol

>>17753923
How many fascists do you know?

>>17754882
Not really as a discussion on political ideology is essentially a discussion on political theory/philosophy and not just day-to-day happenings in politics.

>>17754904
>just take a pill
Take a suppository

>>17754838
Pseud

>>17754920
Yes really. Read the sticky and if you actually can fucking read you'll see where you've got it wrong.

>>17754909
You're right that was badly phrased. I meant to say people wont lose their shit if you label yourself a nationalist.

>>17754150
It literally is not either fascist nor is it kicking the west’s ass and further the average Chinese citizen works in appalling conditions alien to even Amerifats with few ways to ameliorate their exploitation and make much less per GDP than almost every first world country.

But yeah based Xi amirite uh fellow alt right bros?

>>17754934
You don't need to get all upset because you're sperging on the rules and no one cares. Join in the discussion.

>>17754934

>>17754958
If I wanted to have vapid "discussion" about political philosophy with literal retards who can't read I'd be on a different board or site not here.

>>17753784
>Has historically failed, is too extreme, too autistic and most people who support it are cringeworthy losers.

Being murdered isn’t the same as failing. Failure looks like the USSR after Lenin

>>17754129
Based
No reply from the tankie fuck lmao

>>17754988
Lucky you're not doing that then.

>>17753850
> tfw your ideology glorifies conflict, but you lose all your wars.

>>17753931
This. Be specific what do you want this political ideology to accomplish?
>>17753961
Again too broad and undefined. What do you mean by promoting strength? Is it physical or mental strength? And what do you mean by being strong ...etc...etc.

>>17753935
>He's so wrapped up in political theatre that the appearance of the supposed adherents of an ideology are more important than its tenets
Also Socialists exist outside of the US

>>17753784
>>Liberalism
>Literally the worst of all ideologies. Capitalism apologism, whig history, pro immigration, feminism and LGBTQ. Basically the foot soldier/ useful idiots of neoliberal elites.

anon you could've just said "I watch Fox news"

>>17755033
Lmfao not ever understood how /pol/fags rationalise this...

>>17753850
Yes.

>>17754990
Can you sum up any arguments from the videos? I don't really have time to watch them but I'm curious what he says

>>17755111
Well, it is a sample of n=1, no?

>>17755111
The Italians even lost to the Greeks, lmao

>>17755108
Hmmm not really Fox News. More like Twitter rightists like Bronze Age Pervert honestly. I doubt fox is beamoning LGBTQ, capitalism, immigration or even feminism. They love all that shit now. They’re more libertarian

>>17755119
ct talks about how hitler put bankers in camps, and that the paris commune took out loans from rothchilds, which confused engels in a letter.
also fuck you zoom zoom

>>17755151
>More like Twitter rightists like Bronze Age Pervert honestly

>>17755151
Plus they likely wouldn't know what the whig version of history is.

>>17755159
What? He’s very popular right now. Even some leftists like him strangely enough.

>>17753784
Egoism if you have enough willpower (most people don't despite deluding themselves about it). Otherwise just be moderately conservative and don't think about politics too much. Being politically active is bad for your mental health.

>>17754990
>Being murdered isn’t the same as failing.
Cope.

>Failure looks like the USSR after Lenin
Lmao, Lenin left the country in shambles and Stalin managed to rebuild it into the autarky and reassebled the empire that went toe-to-toe with US for a while. You could say that it stagnated a lot or was behind the US in terms of progress, but USSR still persisted longer than Third Reich and only self-destructed because Gorby tried to liberalize the system. I'm not a fan of gommunism, but get your facts straight.

>>17755177
Only nineteenth century Russian anarchists or snarky twitter transsexuals are appropriate reading material. NOTHING ELSE.

>>17753784
My diary desu

>>17755178
>Being politically active is bad for your mental health

This absolutely cannot be stated enough. Unless you’ve been groomed for power or have an extremely strong will politics will completely rape your mind. Charles Clymer (pic related) literally takes estrogen, wears make up and dresses because he simply spent too much time in politics. It can seriously fuck you worse than you can imagine.

>>17755157
Thank you for the bulletpoints boomer fren
I don't think the first point really matters much - easily explained by reference to competing layers of capital (productive and financial), but the second is interesting, something I wasn't aware of. I'll tailor any future viewing accordingly

>>17755188
Uhm sweetie... your forgetting black and indigenous folx of colour...

>>17755033
KEK

>/lit/ - Literature

>>17755119
Well Keith Woods cites different authors
The basic gist is they didn’t not receive support until they were in power and even then only it was a farce. Everyone knew who calls the shots
You should watch the vid and his work its pretty good

>>17755178
USSR failed at establishing Marxist state and the Revolution
Some wee lad named Trotsky was adamant
> because Gorby tried to liberalize the system
The system was already failing that is why Gorbachev tried to reform.

>>17755178
>>17755226
>Being politically active is bad for your mental health.
Amerimutt Boomer brainlet take

>>17755399
US politics is totally downstream of how much funding your ideas have. Theory is masturbatory. It's all about the financing. With enough money you can sell the public on anything, even policies which actively diminish their rights, property, freedom, etc.

>>17755119
Keith talks about how fascism did not fit within the marxist framework and that italian marxists had to try and explain away fascism as "reactionary" and a tool of the bourgeoise.
CT destroys the idea that Hitler was getting loads of money from industrialists/wallstreet and was under their control.
Do give the videos a watch when you have the time

>>17753784
OP, you seem a little confused. Following any political ideology is cringe. The only good, coherent political ideology is one that you formulate yourself. Perhaps you'd know this if you weren't falling over yourself trying to gain social acceptance by adopting some political ideology like the based boi you are.

>>17755483
How do you formulate one 'by yourself'?

>>17755426
Retreating from ameristan culture and politics is fine
In mass democracy/ Liberalism you are always political

AMERIKA DELENDA EST

>>17753784
>Am I just too blackpilled or is there really no good, coherent political ideology?

>Islamism
> encourages being a decent human being
>encourages traditional values and principles
>encourages good communities
>encourages family life
>forbids degeneracy like alcohol, drugs, sex before marriage, usury, and greediness
> Forbids faggoterry ways of living
> forbids thottery

Repent and become Muslim, you filthy heathen.

>>17755498
by having an independent thought for once and not relying on the advice of random strangers on a mongolian basket-weaving forum

>>17755515
This.

>>17755426
Bloomberg proved this in his mayoral race. He just dumped massive amounts of money into the I think if he had done it earlier in the 2020 election and been more serious he could have easily bought the presidency.

His mayoral race was really something and I urge anyone who cares to take a look at what he did. He basically just sent money to groups around NYC, even some groups that had conflict agendas, and bought their loyalty. I’m condensing it but that’s basically the gist of it - send money to the beads of powerful groups and then the leaders tell the people they represent who to vote for.

>>17755378
>You should watch the vid
Yes I think I will, I've heard of him but never watched anything.
In general my view is that fascism is a form of Bonapartism, in which a bourgeois legislature cedes power to the executive (whether remaining in hands fairly close to the ruling class or passing to a more external force), which sounds very close if not identical to what he's criticising. So I think it'll be an interesting challenge to my views.

>>17755451
I suspect there might be decent debunking of claims of direct funding (and direct control) of Hitler by productive capital, although I'm sceptical the notion I've described above will be fundamentally challenged. But I haven't watched it yet, so I'll wait before I say anything for certain. Thanks for the summary

>>17755521
Let's get a bit more specific. Describe the process of arriving at an individual thought or give a case example of an independent thought you have had that can serve as a reference point.

>>17755502
>>17755399
America is unironically the best country in the world. European and third worlders are simply distressed from a well deserved inferiority complex

>>17755515
>>17755527
Nah Muslims are pussies. Israelis keep kicking their ass mercilessly and they are so weak and effete that jews beat them up.

>>17755549
No worries man
Respect your open mindedness

>>17755549
>In general my view is that fascism is a form of Bonapartism, in which a bourgeois legislature cedes power to the executive

Though what about cases in which there is no major revolutionary event, such as the French revolution, in which the ruling class is motivated to cede to the 'better' option?

>>17755537
He is only the most naked example of this rule, as one person with one fortune. A better example is the corporate consensus on issues like ESG, taxation, immigration/visas, etc., which translates to bottomless funding for politicians, who represent these as the available policy options for voters. Rather than just buying off various bloc-votes like the individual politician might, this corporate power flows in the opposite direction. The political positions are sold to the voters rather than the voters being bought off to support them. If you have a policy idea with no substantial support from any sources of wealth, it is effectively pointless. Of course, with the right conditions in the market so to speak, this idea may be able to sway some key stakeholders and initiate a wave of adoption by the others, but whether that happens or not is pretty much not something you personally can achieve.

>>17753784
There will always be a regime. Either commit yourself intensely, passionately, and sacrifice all for art or prayer, or start a family and raise proper, free-thinking children somewhere beautiful.

>>17755549
> In general my view is that fascism is a form of Bonapartism,
Salazar said National Socialism was like Pagan Caesarism. Which I feel is a good way of putting it.
Regardless of your position you’ll like Keith he’s very good

>>17755562
Fair enough. Independent as in not reliant upon or imposed by others. A priori thought in the social sphere, as in the case of political ideology, is likely not feasible; a purely independent idea without any external influence here is not what I'm referring to. Rather, I'm referring to arriving at an idea of your own formulation through observation and analysis of other thinkers, as opposed to adopting an ideology and declaring "I'm a paleoconservative now."
In general, read a book.

>>17753784
I see nothing wrong with this image.

>>17755604
Take care man

>>17755608
I'm sorry, I don't understand, can you explain more? My understanding was that Napoleon persuaded the Directory moderates that a Jacobin coup was imminent, so it was more a perceived 'revolutionary event' than an actual one, although of course the Directory was already subject to some degree to actual Jacobin influence despite the repressions. So it wasn't purely imaginary that they were losing control. Late-revolutionary society was in a constant, general crisis pretty much, so any threat might've appeared credible I imagine.

>>17755688
Very apt I think. Salazar seems by far the most cool-headed of the 20thC rightist dictators. Woods at least appears literate, which is more than can be said for most yt'ers

>>17755801
Based. Other than the watch TV part its good advice.

>>17753784
>get a job
You need money?
>go to work
It’s how you get money?
>get married
You don’t want to find a woman to share your life with?
>follow fashion
Uhhh...
>act normal
Hurr durr look how weird I am! So free!
>walk on the pavement
Please walk into oncoming traffic
>watch tv
Some shows are pretty great
>obey the law
Break the law, to get to jail, you are now really free
>save for your old age
Or die in a nursing home?

This is the dumbest, Reddit tier, “I’m 14 and this is deep” shit I have ever seen

>>17755906
>Some shows are pretty great
Imagine saying this and then calling someone else Reddit

>>17755707
I think 'reliant upon' and 'imposed by' are different. Unreflectively holding beliefs that are in vogue or were held by your parents is obviously unsound.
But one cannot start from scratch completely in politics, which is inherently communal, based on existing traditions and shared socio-economic realities. You can't extract your theory from all of that.
Obviously reading a book is good but it doesn't count as thinking for oneself in the sense I assumed that you meant.

>>17755835
I was just wondering how closely fascism can be compared with Bonapartism.
One key difference is that both fascists and communists are reacting to (what they perceive as) the excesses of capitalism. That factor perhaps further separates 3rd-positionism from Bonapartism.

>>17755960
To clarify, I was not advocating for "starting from scratch completely," but rather using the "existing traditions and shared socio-economic realities" you highlight to inform personal analysis. What I am opposed to is, as you note, unreflectively held ideology and devotion to a ideological or party line rather than personal belief.
I'm curious what your assumption/view of "thinking for oneself" would be?

>>17754820
Neoconservatism

Pros:
>Belief in the clash of civilizations
>Friend / Enemy distinction
>Belief in the superiority of western civilization
>Anti Islam
>Willing to wage war
>Influenced by Carl Schmitt and and Leo Strauss

Cons:
>"Judeo Christian" values
>Not racialist
>Free market advocay
>too socially liberal

6/10, wouldn't recommend

>>17754824
Have you read Strauss? It surely sounds like you have

>>17754905
>Been on 4chan since 2009
GTFO Boomer
>>17755515
Fuck off Mohammed. Unlike most on the right I don't oppose muslims because they aren't liberal enough, don't like democracy, gays, jews, women, homosexuals, atheists and so forth. I oppose muslims because they are a foreign ethnic group with a different cultural background. When white people accept Islam, there is not enough that distinguishes them for arabs and the vital friend / enemy distinction disappears.

>>17756042
Recently, I've been a bit more sceptical at the 'think for yourself' as a post-war American slogan. There is the whole Cartesian subject debate to be had, regarding whether we are self-contained knowing substances devoid from wider reality but maybe it is hard to have that debate on 4chan.
I would say that social consensus should always be harshly examined (if not rejected on principle) as it is contingent.
But 'radical innovation' is the term I like. People, societies, institutions etc. have structural similarities, so it would be madness to reject all of the theories that deal with them to fulfill the slogan of thinking for yourself. To me, the best thing to do is to try and update and improve on them.

>>17755994
>fascism can be compared with Bonapartism
I think they're no less distantly related than, say, social liberalism from classical liberalism.

>>17755933
He's not wrong though.

>>17754905
fuck off tradcuck your shaming is meaningless

>literature

>>17755994
Bonapartism Is still Caesarism
You should listen to BAPcast episode on the Traditional Right (Monarchy, Aristocracy) vs the New post Enlightenment Right

>>17753784
Here's my political stance, which I've kind of just developed over time, and as everything, it's only my perspective of what the world should be. It falls somewhere along the line of paternalistic conservatism and distributism mixed with some more progressive characteristics. I'm from the US and hold relatively leftist values by our standards, for reference.
>Economic Policy
More Nordic Model economics. Focus on developing for-profit worker cooperatives as much as possible, with union workforces for those industries where it isn't feasible.
>Military Policy
Limited foreign intervention. I would like our country to stop fueling NATO and to end wars of foreign aggression. US blunders in the Middle East are prime examples of how imperialist policies no longer work. Stop sending weapons to people who are trying to kill us. Also cut down the RnD budgets for major military equipment. There comes a point where the fancy new jet fighter is having diminishing returns. That said, maintaining a sizable ground force is a good thing for emergency manpower and public defense.
>Social Issues
Guarded progressivism. I think we should have equal rights for all people (marry whomever the fuck you want, if they're capable of consent) but don't make HRT a public expense.
>Healthcare
Full single payer option. Similar to the German model, where you can opt out for a tax incentive.
>Science/Technology and the Environment
Increase funding towards green energy, and trust medical experts when it comes to things like epidemiology. I would like to see a massive decentralization of the power grid for purposes of civil defense and energy independence. Additionally, stop using coal for power; it isn't cost effective and it is outperformed in pretty much every way by nuclear.
>Diplomacy
Draw down the soft power empire that we utilize. Focus more on preventing outright warfare between other nations, and acting as a mediating power. Increase our position in the UN to try and build a permanent UN security coalition.

>>17753784
National socialism or third positionism, but not in Hitler way, just left wing in terms of market and right wing in terms of culture. It's the one ideology you are not allowed to have, yet every sane person desires it.

There is no absolute standard in reality
Hierarchies come and go based on our needs
Humans are insatiable and need to feed different aspects of themselves at different times. Different systems afford this.
The system is a reflection of facilitating the identity both as it is and how it wishes to become.

>>17753784
There is only one, the ideology of love and understanding. Building a cooperative political system in which the betterment of society as a whole can be accomplished. The politics of today have been purified to a raw lust for power. Heraclitus said once "A dog barks only at those who he does not know" implying a certain part of the human condition which today is ever more prevelant in politics. An I think that we can agree that barking at eachother does not solve anything.

>>17753784
Marxism-Leninism in the age of multi-polarity of a post-covid world.
Communism is the real movement, the objective direction history is going towards.
Watch INFRARED
https://www.youtube.com/c/InfraredShow

>>17757394
People want to go different ways

>>17757493
Skipped partway through a random video on China and he's just a Semitic ML version of Vaush. No thanks. I don't care about having my ego soothed watching see-eye-ay librulz getting owned epic style by debater man.
In a year or so it'll come out he's a groomer or furry or something

>>17753784
Christianity. All “political ideologies” are necessarily falsehoods. The only people who follow this shit and label themselves with an “ideology” are underage for a reason.

>>17757733
lol, no. He's based as fuck. Very much influenced by Heidegger, Lacan, Zizek, Kojev, Nick Land, and so on. Unlike Vaush, he actually knows what he's talking about. Also he destroyed /leftypol/ degens in his earlier streams.

Kill yourself mods

Free market capitalism, simple as.

>>17754629
Weaver is a good start. He isnt very well known and was perhaps one of the only Americans who grasped the fundamentals of the subject

>>17757909
>Heidegger, Lacan, Zizek, Kojev, Nick Land
I only care about half of those but okay fine.
I don't really care that much if he's knowledgeable because I don't get my political opinions from youtubers, so I won't be watching. Besides, my issue is his grating style.
Also you can't really destroy degenerates while using Vaush tactics. If he were able to put his points across without sounding like an undisciplined chestbeating slob I'd respect him.
He'll amass an army of 14 year olds who think he's their dad over lame youtube drama slapfights and then he'll have some (probably discord-related) scandal. Gay.

>>17754099
>read [book] and become [x ideologue]
jesus christ, the absolute state of you political cucks. you read one book and are suddenly nazbol/tankie/fascist/etc. It's literally no different than your average white girl freshman who takes a class on gender studies and then starts calling herself they/them.
You don't know anything if you think the bolsheviks weren't just accelerationists for the global elite/international bankers--communism/dialectical materialism is just secular messianic Judaism. Have you ever looked into Marx's geneology?

I think you are partially right that fascists were "whores of the rich," but fascism is a far greater legitimate threat to the powers that be than communism ever was. Communism is just faux-utopian accelerationism which sounds good at the most superficial level, but it's sole intention is to transfer power from the petty/bourgeoisie to the elite of the elite, with the aim to centralize all power in the hands of the few, while reducing all other threats/wealth-holders to utter powerlessness. It's the most braindead ideology that only makes sense for demoralized, privileged, midwit-tier whiteoids who have no experience or knowledge of history. Your egalitarianism is a farce and your good intentions are being misguided.

Read Bakunin.

>>17754146
based. unironically just described 75% of 4chan.

>>17756187
>When white people accept Islam, there is not enough that distinguishes them for arabs and the vital friend / enemy distinction disappears.
All the other ethnicities who have embraced Islam are very distinguishable from Arabs so I don't see why whites wouldn't be.

>>17753784
Answer the call of Allah and embrace Islam. InshaAllah you will not be disappointed.

>>17753784
monarchist

>>17757493
>being this subverted
see>>17758041
communism is undoubtedly the most braindead ideology, that is only attractive to privileged midwit pseuds and jews. In no way is it the only way forward. It's been tried countless times, and has caused nothing but bloodshed, misery, and trauma for all those subjected to it.

>>17758154
This. Christianity with a feudal system.

The End; stop arguing; you plebs go back at your farms and live a normal and simple life. The bourgeoisie is laughing at your miserable life when you guys believe you have power or any importance.

>>17758261
Cope, China is proving itself to be a successful superpower. It's you who is braindead...

>>17758293
China isn't communist it's a high IQ authoritarian capitalist system. You should really understand such basic things.

>>17758310
you don't know what these words mean. Anglo pathology.

>>17758321
I'm not Anglo and apparently you don't understand these words. There's no sane person on this planet who could think that China has a socialist economy. They reformed towards capitalism in the '70s, it was a big deal. Look it up.

>>17758341
No China is socialist, his shilling is kinda gay though. China is mostly a shithole, though it's done some stuff right.

>>17758341
lol, you have anglo pathology. China is a socialist country, striving towards communism. Saying it is a capitalism is absolutely meaningless and shows your total lack of understanding about china.

>>17758361
You have to differentiate the libertarian pejorative usage of the term socialism to descibe mixed economies from socialist economics proper. North Korea has a socialist system, China a capitalist one. You can open businesses there, they have a stock market and western property rights. That they have a large nationalized sector is largely irrelevant here. It's just authoritarian corruption or political consideration and not based on socialist ideology. Internally it is justified with Marx' dictum of communism only being possible after advancing through a capitalist phase. In reality of course they will never returrn to the communist catastrophe they experienced under Mao.

>>17758370
see here
>>17758370
So silly to think that after creating hundres of thousands of millionaires and billionaires and a fat middle class that suddenly the communist revolution of the now non-existent proletariat will manifest. The whole point of Marx was that people will become so poor under capitalism that the revolution will become inevitable since that analyis has proven a complete joke you cannot possibly take the Chinese dictatorship (all millionaires now) seriously when they make that excuse.

>>17758406
I do differentiate between those two usages you mention. I only really care about the latter. Being able to do all the things you mention (though the stock market doesn't really function like a proper one and property rights are nowhere near as secure as the West) demonstrates capitalism exists in China. But it doesn't necessarily follow capitalism is the dominant mode of production. Read Preobrazhensky if you're interested I guess.

>>17753784
N/A

>>17758435
Billionares in china are under pressure by the party, they don't have access to those billions since it's all in shares. They can't pull out those shares for their own use.
You are ignorant about china.
If you want to expand your mind a little bit, watch this debate:
https://youtu.be/AM838wusAmQ?t=1203
Timestamped to 20 minutes in because the first 20 minutes are about personal beef between these two.

>>17758460
It's not helpful to think in production because that would tilt massively in favor of the market. To think in terms of a socialist economy is just silly if that concept is to retain any meaning but you can certainly think about how powerful the state is in relation to the economy. Then again given western developments we can be pretty sure that the entire political apparatus will be taken over by economic considerations with concentrated capital starting to make the decisions. I think without democracy we will see a rapidly accelerated degeneration because these forces can just work through corruption rather than mass manipulation.

>>17758470
See here
>>17758501

>>17758501
>how powerful the state is in relation to the economy
It's a difference of kind not degree in this case. For all the reasons you've doubtless heard before. To say production tilts in favour of the market is also a simplification, though I don't consider it a total falsehood. None of this precludes huge swathes of China being a poor shithole either like I say. I doubt they'll succeed long-term.
Besides that your analysis strikes me as possible. I wouldn't go so far as to say certain or even necessarily likely though.

>>17755033
Lmao

>>17753784
This thread is pretty funny because everyone ITT is discussing something they have absolutely zero influence over
>yeahh I think fascism its the correct ideology!
>nono you're wrong is liberalism!
>*meanwhile Mr Shlomo Goldbergstein continues to do whatever the fuck he wants along with his elite friends*
Stop caring about politics, its all fake and you will never achieve anything or change anything

>>17758569
They have an enormous advantage because of their population size, IQ average and homogeneity. I have no doubt that they will reclaim their traditional place as a superpower. It's not unlikely that they will be able to reform their system quickly and peacefully. The real question is whether they will become a comparably benign power like the US. It's not clear to me to what extent the developmental market approach of Britain or the US is related to Christian morality. In terms of the purely rational it would make more sense to replace Africans with Chinese settlers for example.

>>17753784
If you make less than $150k/year you have to be a literal brainlet to not be a liberal socdem or socialist

>>17758636
I doubt China will be benign. They hold more cards than countries are willing to own up to and would likely rather see Chinese culture spread rather than integrate.

>blatant /pol/ thread allowed to be up for 10 hours
why

>>17758636
They became a power pretty much the second they got nukes. It doesn't mean they won't stagnate or decline though. Their working age population is expected to fall to 700 million by 2050. Which will likely reduce homogeneity and possibly IQ avg through immigration. Or they simply take the economic hit. Or, the least likely option, they find some way to innovate out of it. Though of course automation etc will mitigate it to some degree. It just won't abolish it.
That along with climate change and an unaltered geopolitical situation will be their main issues.

>>17758669
We will see, they are in the process of christianization which should mean that our values are being aligned.

>>17757394
based

>>17758711
We can't even speculate about what will happen in relation to technological change. Everything I write here pretty much assumes techonological stasis which of course is ridiculous. The scariest thought I can come up with here is that advances in genetic science and possible retention of socialist ideology within the ruling apparatus (+authoritarian considerations) could lead to an interest in artificially creating 'the socialist man'. If possible that would essentially be a robot human. Then in sci-fi terms we would have to segregate from their genetics and whatnot and would see a struggle develop between different species of man The future holds such crazy potentialities.

>>17758767
A little sci-fi for my liking. But hey, who knows

Social democracy or centrism.

>>17753998
Yup. There could be other, better, forms of government but liberalism has worked fairly well for the most part. It's a shame that it's been co-opted by crazy progressives and the American left.

>>17758830
Genetic manipulation is a certainty. The question just is whether than can result in a human that is divorced from essential biological behaviours. But yea, who knows how any of that will work out.