/lit/ - Literature

hmmm... i have to put some thought into that.

>You're job

>>1772407
please do. I want to see what the minds of 4chan can do to fix what America can not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U

>>1772414

Yeah, haha sorry. Stupid mistake.

What I'm about to explain to you came from /sci/, many millenniums ago:

No A-F system. It will be replaced by just a percent.
No "No Child Left Behind" bullshit.
Types of classes will be determined by dual factors: the person's motives and their capabilities to perform them(the thing that they wish to do) well.
Class level will be determined by the percent received in classes deemed necessary for the new class (eg: +20% in Bio = No AP Bio next year)
Grades will not be founded on known standards and will grow from 0 up((i.e. there will be no "You didn't include this, -10 pts; instead it would be "You did include this, +10 pts)(For the 0 up - You would not start with 100/100, you would start with 0/100)

to be continued

>>1772407 me again. drawing a blank.

my economics professor used to talk about "grade inflation". He didn't grade on a curve because he thought it was unfair. He gave everybody the same tests, they were challenging, but not impossible. Out of the entire class, two people got an A. I was one of those people. Nearly half the class flunked out.

My psychology class, on the other hand, gives a 10% boost for attendance, treats a 65% or higher as a "C" for our final grade, is ridiculously easy, and the grade school material is condescending as fuck towards anybody with half a brain.

i think that's a good place to start.

>>1772430
Classes will not be run be a physically present teacher. Instead, a computer screen will be at the front of the room. It will have a camera above it. The screen will both display the information being given and state it aloud(necessity for the blind or deaf). If miscreant activity is observed through the camera, the student will be promptly sent to a "detention" room where they will be briefed on why their actions were wrong and why they should not do it(disruptive to others). They will then be discreetly returned to the room.
All classrooms will have 2 guards present outside the room at all time. The guards will also be watching through the monitor. They are the ones who enforce the detention.
University is paid for by the State. (The state pays less for some students than for others due to the fact that person x may have very few options left due to poor performance in everything)

>>1772430
Great ideas.

>>1772447
WhatthefuckamIreading.png horrible idea. At least half the point of any serious education is more about receiving an approach and methodology from the teacher than any probably soon out of date facts. Someone who learns how to literature (or science, or whatever) will be able to deal with any information on their own. Someone who just learns to intone Hamlet instead of a catechism or a Quran won't be able to do shit with a new book.

>>1772447
Students will be allowed to appeal immediately to all claims of misbehavior. Their responses will be taken seriously, and will be reviewed by an official. The official will then send the transcribed response to a psychologist who will analyze the response and write a short summary of the possible state of mind of the person in comparison to what is already known, which will then be placed in the student's dossier.

>>1772457
>>1772453
They will ALSO be allowed to submit any suggestions to the officials about the curriculum at any time. These too will be taken seriously and may be used to change imperfections, yadayadayada.
A library will be available on campus at all times with every kind of book imaginable. Students will be encouraged to create study groups who will meet here to study and discuss whatever they wish, so as to better help those who are struggling with a certain class/topic.

>>1772445 on the other hand...

My whole life i wanted to learn some sort of creative skill. It seemed like every time the opportunity would arise, even though i tried really hard, the teachers seemed to focus on the "talented" kids and leave me behind. I understand wanting gifted students to develop their talents, but i felt like it was at my expense.

>>1772453
The curriculum will be frequently updated with new information, as well as informing students of any changes with anything stated at a prior time.

That's all I can think of right now. Tell me if I missed something.

the number one thing schools need to start doing: let the kid decide whether or not they want to go to school.

If kids don't want to go to school, don't force them to. Let the kids who actually want education get one. Let all the other kids reap the benefits of illiteracy.

>>1772467
Inefficient, in that you'll always be playing catchup, and when formal education is over, the students will be SOL. Moreover, just learning "the information" will leave them ill-suited to actually put into practice what it is they learn.

>>1772470
Shit, I forgot about the arts.
Similar thing - monitor explains possible techniques, histories of things, whatever - observes each individual person's performance and capabilities, suggests deviations from pure techniques for each individual. There is a similar kind of area as the library for artists, basically just a room for drawing shit, a (few) rooms for music, acting, whatever. (lol no dancing cuz its for fags)

>>1772476
Did you not notice the "students will be encouraged to make study groups, blah blah" part

>>1772463
If i may voice one (probably ill-informed, and quite possibly idiotic) opinion, i would remove psychology from the curriculum at state accredited universities. Its my fondest wish that this bogus cult religion is someday exposed as the hollow pseudo-science it really is. Anybody care to disagree?

Parents need to be more involved.

>>1772478
Happens on its own in any good, traditional university. Someone actually had a maxim about the best universities being defined by the students teaching eachother more than the professors do.

But you need the right environment for that to happen. Turning people loose after watching Wikipedia condensed to Powerpoint slides is a recipe for cultural disaster. You're asking them to reinvent the intellectual wheel after looking at pictures of roads all day.

>>1772490
I said nothing about Powerpoint. That was kind of the part that I explained poorly - it would be kind of like Khan Academy, with an asian teacher behind the scenes playing with the screen. He would just have to be trained very well and not fuck around with the drawing utilities.

>>1772486
0/10
Nice try Tao Lin

Let's hear more solutions!

>>1772506
my solution is ubermenschen

>>1772497
>Khan Academy

?

I'm not normally a conservative, but explain what's wrong with the traditional teacher-lecturing-and-discussing-with-students format that's been around and formed everything we know of culture since Socrates and the early Talmudic sages? (In the West at least; I don't know Asian intellectual history as well.)

>>1772510
Was just random stereotypical adjective thrown in there

Maybe all we have to do is make sure our politicians can read at a college sophomore level, and that they can do Basic Algebra, and this problem will solve itself.

Mandatory skills testing for politicians. Might work.

Also, tried to find funnier pic, but this is all i could find.

>>1772510
Also - because students are influenced by stupid shit like what the teacher looks like. You can't tell what a person looks like by their voice and/or drawing skills.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything posted before me. In fact, what I am about to say may be a reiteration of what has been posted already, but I have devoted a certain degree of thought to this very issue in times past.

There are two main points from which most, if not all, problems in the current educational system stem. These are:
-- The Curriculum
-- The Methods of Teaching

When I say that those methods of teaching which are both broken and very commonly implemented in the American Education (TM) of today, I say that the replacement of these methods with this New is that this is not a one-size-fits-all replacement, but rather each discipline is approached with the idea of experiential learning being the paramount reason for ever participating in the practice of education to begin with.

The information that is imbued on Today's Student (TM) is also in dire straights and will not escape my rampage in which i blaze the trails and burn all books that make reference to 'Creationism' as a scientific approach. My experience with education, especially the experience of education during the younger years, is that I came away with one very important lesson that overshadows any and every other thing that was learned during this time of my young-self: The importance of questioning he or she who is dispelling this information on on you, and this importance is not dictated only by a possible disbelief in what is being shot in your direction, but also the fact that good questioning can only arise from fundamental understanding.

Similarly, the problem with the current curriculum is not only that students are told dubious, or outright fictitious, slices of information (e.g. George Washington and the cherry tree), but it is also that the information is entirely worthless in any practical sense. At the outset of classes the objective of the class needs to be specified and students will be informed that they are learning all subjects in question specifically because it will allow you to accomplish this specific, concrete function once the subject matter of the class is learned.

>>1772517
I'll look at the site for it in a little.

But that aside,

>I'm not normally a conservative, but explain what's wrong with the traditional teacher-lecturing-and-discussing-with-students format that's been around and formed everything we know of culture since Socrates and the early Talmudic sages? (In the West at least; I don't know Asian intellectual history as well.)

It seems to me a basically flawless system as long as the guy up front isn't a schmuck.

>>1772520
here you go

>>1772525
You're not funny or correct
You are also Tao Lin

>>1772533
The problem? 100 students to a classroom is the fucking problem.

>>1772544
forgot to address that
good on you sire

There was a lady who was elected to run the D.C. schools who proposed merit-based pay. The prospect of a six figure salary would entice talented people to come teach in DC schools. Of course the union who has their sticky tentacles wrapped in a choke hold around that school district shat their pants at the idea and overwhelmingly shut the idea down. They would rather have tenure and no prospect of being fired--only shuffling teachers around when they suck. These teachers unions are every bit a part of the problem and they won't admit it.

If you want talented people to teach you need to pay 'em accordingly. $30,000 a year doesn't attract anyone when they have to go $25,000 in debt for college. And it seems once a public school teacher is granted tenure, performance takes a hit. I wonder why. I need to be able to fire teachers and I need to be able to reward the hardest-working.

So I'll say it so you don't have to assume; I would forcefully shut down teachers unions. They have served their purpose and are no longer relevant. They are inhibiting America's ability to reform schools. This wouldn't be some asinine plot to strip them of retirement and health benefits, no, they would keep those. In fact if you want to attract talent, those must be offered.

pt 1 of 2.

Parents thinking kids are going to learn all they need to know about life and how to live it in school.
Teachers who get pissed on if they try to move an inch from curriculum or try to teach anything the parents should be teaching their kids.

>>1772548
Here's pt 2.

I would also make school a year-round institution. Teachers would be paid accordingly and I would have the best teachers making $100,000 a year. Especially the good algebra, physics, and chemistry teachers but I won't forget about the others. Uniforms will be mandatory in my school district(s). I wore uniforms and hated it but having grown up i see the value in it now. It's one less distraction and when people dress the part, they tend to act the part. It creates an atmosphere of discipline and that's also what's needed. Parents are increasingly failing at parenting their kids and that lack of control spills over into the school. Disruptive students need to be segregated and shamed. I would give them second and third chances to shape up but if they insist school isn't for them, I would cut 'em loose. They can re-enroll in 365 days.

I would also look into eliminating age and grades. All 6-7 year old must be in grade 1 sort of thing. I don't think that's good. Students would advance based on their 4-month performance. And then can move from Elementary to Middle school when they're ready. Same story from Middle to High. If a student needs to repeat a 4-month block there would be no question.

>>1772548
I skimmed that before actually reading it, thought it was tentacle rape fantasy

>>1772538

Obviously America needs a national curriculum (lol will never happen thnx Constitution) that is actually globally competitive. It should work like the health care bill though. If states (or even counties) can prove they have a better curriculum they can override the national one.

Right now the best curricula you'll find in American public schools (excluding magnet programs) is courtesy of the College Board's AP program. The rest is watered down crap.

>>1772549
Parents need to be removed entirely from the equation.
I forgot the last and one of the most crucial part of my theory - the whole thing is a boarding school.

Money. Money is the only thing wrong with American education. I have seen kids who've only attended half their high school classes graduate because the school was scared that they'd lose grants if the graduate % fell.

I've seen collegiate courses get dumbed the fuck down because bad grades make kids drop out before paying for all four years.

Money, money, money. All other problems are nugatory in comparison.

>>1772554
I am the best tripfag on /lit/

>>1772556
>Parents need to be removed entirely from the equation
you are an idiot.

>>1772564

>>1772399
>>1772399

>mfw op thinks the goal of education is to teach people to think and not to train them to be compliant in a system of complicit slavery in the labour market.

>>1772550
Like it. How would you treat creative classes?

>>1772556
>Parents need to be removed entirely from the equation.
Why would you ever consciously remove most crucial element of support structure, not to mention the single most important source of growth potential and useful knowledge, from the equation?

>>1772587
Because parents will also spread their opinions and influence person x in ways that may put them at a disadvantage. Societal interaction is more beneficial than learning from parents in my opinion.

>>1772544
I don't think it is.

Throughout my education, I've been in some fairly large classes, and here's the key- as long as the teacher truly has an understanding of what they're teaching and is charismatic, class size just doesn't matter. At least in the introductory classes where this is true, and at least to me and the people I know well.

The system he's proposing will only amplify the potential problems of a massive lecture- the impersonal and one-size-fits-all nature, the tendency to overemphasize the curriculum over the subject, the lack of room for questioning.

Anyone slightly curious can self-educate every fact ever published, given time. A reading list would accomplish the same thing as a bunch of people sitting in a room watching a video.

>>1772599
whats the point of having a teacher if your preaching to room filled with 100 people? You might as well just read a book.

The whole purpose of having a teacher is that you have the ability to ask QUESTIONS.

Otherwise, you may as well just give each child a laptop and say, "here you go. You're on your own from here on in, kid"

>>1772594
When I start my dictatorship, I would like you to be my minister of Education.

>>1772581
>How would you treat creative classes?

It would be taken from the beginning. I wouldn't force everyone to take theater but they would have to do something. Some students may prefer learning an instrument over painting and drawing. That's cool. I would have computer graphics classes and all that cool CG shit movies do as an option. Something like that would excite me and I bet a 14 year old would love to create monsters and whatnot. Maybe they could make a video game? I wouldn't prevent anyone's advancement, though, because they couldn't draw well or act. That's not the point and I bet you know that.

>>1772599
also, i agree, the other dude is a total smuck
just cause i like low class sizes doesn't mean i want Stalin in the classroom.

>>1772605
Stories. Jokes. A genuine, opinionated but unpreached point of view. An non-committee-created view on what's important and how to approach it. Everything you've ever loved about every good teacher you've ever had.

The alternative being proposed ITT is like some autistic Montessori school. What advantages does it have?

>>1772609

Yeah, I agree. I just was interested because I see value in creative classes and the ability they offer to help students be innovative and find creative solutions. Of course there are other reasons why I find it important.

im waiting for the day when they can just download shit into your brain.

Don't make the curriculum any harder, just start failing people more. Seriously. All we need are standards. Too many kids pass these days.

>>1772611
Look, I'm not saying small classes are bad, or large classes are good. I'm saying that I don't think it matters much in the sort of introductory classes you see it in. Obviously having little discussion groups is better- but it's not essential for the basics, and many of these classes /do/ do split up into such groups with a grad student supervising.

Well Brit here so I'd make changes to the British system:

start school later, European schools that start later generally do better.
Try to remove the element of pressure from a kid's life, the point is getting where primary school kids worry about their grade because it will ruin their life which is ridiculous.

Get rid of the public system.

Problem solved.

Introduce philosophy into the curriculum from the age of 12

Don't call me Shirley.

>>1772447

Yeah, if we live in an Orwellian State....

I don't think there really is a problem actually. Think about this: Our Education System exists as a bare minimum system, achieving the bare minimums in reading, writing, and math. At that it does a very good job, as the majority of people in our country have basic reading/writing/math skills. I think if we want anything to really change we should change the entire premise of our education system from 'bare minimums' to something more enlightened.

Also, enough with this catering to the lowest 10% stuff. We should be focusing on the top more than the bottom.

>>1772632
More to add:
Start blaming kids instead of teachers, and stop putting up with parents' bullshit.
Also, take out all of those "essentials" or whatever courses. Let people take academic courses and fail.

The only real thing that's wrong is that it's too fucking lenient.

get rid of the 3 month summer vacation. June and December off, 5 on, 1 off the rest of the year.

Get rid of the NEA. teachers will work on individual, annual contracts based on the previous year's results.

Mandatory school uniforms.

Full Retard Mode:
Teachers have rank/paygrade modeled on the military, rank based on qualifications and results. higher ranked teachers have authority over lower ranked teachers. administrators are senior-ranked teachers that have undergone special training.

Bring backcorporal punishment. a ruler across the knuckles is as good a solution for texting in class as anything. Academic dishonesty? waterboarding. Truancy? waterboarding. Bullying? public waterboarding.

No report cards. All grades posted publicly along with mean, median and mode.

Focus is on Math and Hard Sciences. 2 hours of math, 2 hours of science, and an hour of PE. 1 hour each of lit, language arts, and the child's (parent's) foreign language of choice.

>>1772650

>Also, enough with this catering to the lowest 10% stuff. We should be focusing on the top more than the bottom.

Disagree. The top will usually do what it needs to no matter what, the bottom will probably not. The top don't need (or even want, I would think in some circumstances) the help that the bottom does.

>>1772657

>Bullying? public waterboarding.

Someone was bullied.

>>1772650
>>1772659
You know, this is an actually interesting debate. I could easily argue either side of it.

I have to go, but keep this going /lit/.

>>1772659
Help is not what the top percenters need. Its the challenge, the push. The effort spent bringing the bottoms to the median could be spent making a top kid into a doctor or some shit.

BTW, i'm not the guy who you're responding to.

>>1772650
I don't think it works as well as you think it does. A lot of kids who graduate high school in inner city districts are functional illiterates. High school is more like a holding pen to keep kids until they can be transferred to work ghettos

>>1772657
Fuck you! summer vacation is awesome, i would have an hero by now if i didn't have summer vacation.

>>1772665

The top kid will make it on his own if he wants to. He doesn't need to be pushed.

If he does, he's not quite as 'top' as he thought he was.

If you took out all the black students, American schools would be doing just fine.

Seriously, black students get lower grades, are more likely to drop out, and are more apathetic about their education than other students. I agree that they don't get as much attention from teachers, but from the teacher's perspective, there's more satisfaction and payoff from working with a cooperative student than an uncooperative one.

Black culture is the culprit. Young black kids want to be rap stars or athletes. When they get older, some want to be drug dealers. These endeavors take talent and ability more than education. Knowing how to play a sport or write a catchy rap song or sell drugs brings a more immediate monetary reward than learning how to write an essay or do trigonometry.

Black kids who like learning are ridiculed for acting "white". If they want to be doctors or lawyers or engineers, they're derided by their peers for acting "better than us" Not only are they not interested in getting a good education for high-end jobs, they police one another by shaming those to want to get ahead.

>>1772669

>If you took out all the black students, American schools would be doing just fine.

Alright, thread over. Everyone go home.

>>1772668
I suppose, but I don't see the point in wasting the effort on a guy who's gonna work at McDonalds. I mean, you could speed the process of becoming something like a doctor.

>>1772669

IT'S THE SAME WITH POOR PEOPLE YOU IGNORANT SHUT-IN DIPSHIT

If you took out all the POOR students, American schools would be doing just fine.

Seriously, POOR students get lower grades, are more likely to drop out, and are more apathetic about their education than other students. I agree that they don't get as much attention from teachers, but from the teacher's perspective, there's more satisfaction and payoff from working with a cooperative student than an uncooperative one.

POOR culture is the culprit. Young POOR kids want to be stars or athletes. When they get older, some want to be drug dealers. These endeavors take talent and ability more than education. Knowing how to play a sport or write a catchy rap song or sell drugs brings a more immediate monetary reward than learning how to write an essay or do trigonometry.

POOR kids who like learning are ridiculed for acting "smart". If they want to be doctors or lawyers or engineers, they're derided by their peers for acting "better than us" Not only are they not interested in getting a good education for high-end jobs, they police one another by shaming those to want to get ahead.

I would entirely take out the A-F grading system.
I do not believe that because you didn't turn in a few papers, or bombed an exam, you don't know anything that was taught and are deemed unintelligent and must retake an entire class because of this. I don't think tests, or papers should dictate the intelligence level or how much the student understands what they are being taught. If a teacher has time grade papers for hours and hours, perhaps it would be easier to just write a quick summary and rate the students behavior in class, the student's comments on the subject, and the student's ability to teach back what he/she has learned. Learning Biology? Don't give them a vocabulary test and if they get a 60% on it fail them for the year. How about instead talking to them, giving them a project, have them teach back to the class what they've learned- then either pass or fail them. No percents or grades.

Stop teaching how to take a test, start teaching actual applicable skills.

>>1772659

Agreed to a degree, but I think it's more dependent upon personal motivation in the situation you've brought up. There are those of the 'top' who will seek out everything, read avidly, and seek out to make the best of themselves. But in my experience there are often a number of people who don't realize their own potential because they've been growing up in a system that tell you that a just barely is enough.

>>Rather, I think we should help to make resources available in schools that can help spur the intellectual development of those in the upper bracket. The current system in my humble opinion doesn't do enough to recognize those 'above average' students, rather just lumping them together with everyone else.

That's not to say we should be ignoring the lowest bit, quite the opposite, but I do believe we should put more emphasis on broadening curriculum enrichment, as oppose to only concentrating on the lowest.

>>1772662

actually, the point is break the students of any dishonest or disruptive behavior. questions will be encouraged. considering the already harsh regimen, students will have enough problems without other students, and potential bullies would better be served putting their energies into something constructive rather than taking it out on another student. anything that distracts from learning will be quashed.

>>1772679
>perhaps it would be easier to just write a quick summary and rate the students behavior in class

Participation grade.

>the student's comments on the subject, and the student's ability to teach back what he/she has learned

Term paper and essay questions are intended to get exactly this.

You're not really proposing we change much that good teachers (or, teachers allowed to be good) don't do already.

>>1772682

>The current system in my humble opinion doesn't do enough to recognize those 'above average' students, rather just lumping them together with everyone else.

IB. AP. Magnet programs. What more do you want?

>>1772657
While your ideas regarding 'waterboarding' are extreme, I do not think we should underplay the potential for making academic performance public as a profound motivator. All grades should be posted in the 'town square', just as all disciplinary actions, all merits received for achievements, etc.

In a perfect world none of this would be needed, however, as all students would innately have the drive to learn the most, and perform the best, as possible.

There is no serious contender for catalyst of this drive against one that is found from within.

>>1772677

But black people are also poor people....

>>1772691

But there are also white poor people that perform just as poorly as black poor people.

And there are black non-poor people that perform just as well as other non-poor people.

Blame it on race, not your corrupted political and social systems, good job america. Stay retarded.

A Challenge unique to the United States is that we have a very large immigrant population. It's not to say that these immigrants are 'stupider' than everyone else, but oftentimes different cultures place different emphasis on education/the socioeconomic stance of an immigrant (Or general lower class) family might retard the education.

I'm not saying that immigrants are stupid, quite the opposite, they're just as smart as us natives (Bell Curve is a load of rubbish), but when little Juan age 16 needs to work to supplement his dad's income to keep the family in their apartment education is going to take a lower priority than putting food on the table.

Throw in a Language Barrier and we've got a recipe for failure.

*Higher standards for teachers, closer to what is required of university profs. Increase wages to match so people with those qualifications will actually take the job.

*More power to teachers to deal with idiot teenagers who'd rather be somewhere else. Again, like in university, if a student is disruptive, kick them the fuck out of the classroom and move on.

*The institution that does the testing should not be the same institution that does the teaching.

*Make schools compete for students. Compete with each other and with any other alternative method someone might prefer. Since the testing is separate from the teaching, it doesn't matter whether you learn in a class, from a textbook, or from the internet.

*Set up programs that incentivize companies to make some of their technology and employees available to groups of students who are attempting to learn those skills.

>>1772687

Those are dependent upon the self motivation of the student, plus the majority of the schools that are considered the lowest performing don't offer them at all. That and College Board is a bitch.

I can promise you that even the lowest performing high schools have at least a fair number of extremely bright kids. They've just been trapped by their surroundings.

I'm a Canadian, and I envy New York's model of having different high schools that pertain to certain skill sets (although I'm out of high school now). If it was like that across the country in America it would probably benefit the most driven students.

>>1772679

the A-F grading system is actually really valuable for showing prospective employers who gets shit done and who's a flake. it doesn't matter how intelligent someone is if they can't do anything with it.

>>1772688

waterboarding, if done correctly, inflicts minimal physical harm. the point is to ensure that the three things that most hamper learning carry with them a nasty enough penalty so as to ensure that anyone dumb enough to try it once is suitably motivated to never try again.

>>1772704

You're standardizing tests even further, which I think is a mistake.

>>1772720

standardized tests are a good thing. the actual tests are fairly easy, and they show how well someone performs under pressure. the actual shit people learn in school is useless. its the skillset that is important

>>1772720
Nothing wrong with standardized testing if the teachers are all super competent and the standards are actually informed.

*Testing standards will be designed by employers and post secondary institutions.

>>1772755
>>1772756

Standardized testing = gate-keeping.

"Too poor to afford a top-notch individual tutor? What's that, you can't access the best institutional programs to help you ace the test? Spent all your money on bread and rent, can't afford these books and programs that give you all the tricks to doing well? Good luck in life, I bet you're black."

>>1772756

Giving capitalists and post-secondary institutions what they want =/= well informed standards. It just means people looking to make profit off the students will be happy.

>>1772776

Your full of shit. I've never studied for a standardized test or scored below the 85th percentile against the field. Standardized tests are all problem solving, with minimal basis in factual knowledge. if you read the answer first, then read the question, you pretty much can't get it wrong.

>>1772776
Did you miss the part where I advocated massively increasing the quality of our teachers and improving school quality by forcing competition? I'm also all for slashing university tuitions.

Those are the real barriers.

>>1772779

It means that students will be able to get jobs or make it into university. Anything else they can learn on their own time.

>>1772800

the fact that i write like a retard reinforces my point about standardized tests being easy and the people that fail them being really dumb

This is the tl;dr of what I've heard a lot of HS teachers suggest:

Nothing is learned when the same people are sent off to detention or suspended for bad behavior, and in reality it just hurts them more because they miss class time. Instead of punishing the kids who have no interest in learning, what's the problem with sending them to a tech-school modified for their own situations.

It would give them a trade that they can use to make an acceptable living, and it would shorten the grade range drastically. If they fuck up at one of these places then I agree, there's no point in bothering from there on out.

I think the reason why the American education system is in such bad shape has to be the push of higher education as the end all be all in the last 50 or so years. Most schools push college as the only way not to be a loser. Schools must acknowledge that everyone is not meant for higher education. I would try to make school more about exploration than trying to get kids to pass standardized tests. Because what happens if the kid is not good at school but has natural talent for dancing? In the current system this talent would be ignored. We need to move away from the factory mindset that schools have been using since the industrial revolution.

the only people who think standardized tests are key to education reform are politicians who want to look tough on the subject without putting too much effort into finding a solution to advocate aaaaaaand lazy C students who perform well on them

>>1772800
There are people who are naturally good at them, and there are people who are naturally bad at them. I don't think this is an adequate measure of intelligence, as it is only a measure of a certain kind of intelligence. My point about gate-keeping is that students with money can make it so that they'll probably get top scores. The tests only work if you cannot possibly prepare for them in advance, but as it stands the people who score highly are those who either a) happen to good at the kind of thinking involved or b) can afford the best prep to do well. As you move into tests which are more specified, b) becomes more important, because you can't just apply your method alone.

>>1772803
That'd be great for students in already well-funded districts, but it'd only further the step-up wealthier students have over those born into poorer regions.

>>1772818

cont'd

As others have said there are other issues with the situation. You could say that parenting has an effect and it's not always because parents are irresponsible--I would imagine, for example, that some parents are working long hours and thus are unable to keep their children from screwing around. I count myself as an example and although I'm going to a Uni, I fucked up bigtime and I'm going to have to pay for it sooner or later.

I think culture is the main problem here, though. Being a teenager involves some rebellion by definition but if you wanted to summarize this generation, look at what's playing on television. I'm not trying to say we're becoming an overly hedonistic society but why do sex and drugs need to be so prevalent?

>>1772844
>That'd be great for students in already well-funded districts

The whole point of adding competition is that you'd do away with the current district system.

>>1772857
An even cursory look at the artists, scientists, and thinkers that have driven human history forward suggests that sex and drugs are at the very least not impediments.

>>1772887
We killed romance when we made sex something mundane and pointless.
People with this "sex is not important" attitude are why so many people get cheated on.

Yes, moderation is a good thing.
Fuck anybody who says any different.

The biggest disservice my parents did to my generation was teach us otherwise.

>>1772887

You're right, but that's not what I was getting at. Of course there are people like that, Sagan for example. Pynchon has probably dropped his share of acid. It's that MTV, even Fox Family, they all peddle complete bullshit and they sell it right to people who are entering highschool, they've confirmed this publicly themselves. I watched one episode of the Canadian adaption of Skins and I was surprised how ridiculous it was. All the kids on it (all races, backgrounds, and cliques represented) did nothing but have sex and do drugs. None of them ever said no to any of that. A good part of mainstream music is much the same. Wouldn't you say that people getting high, or baby mothers being unable to come to school doesn't do much to improve grades?

frontal lobotomies for EVERYONE!

Problems with public education (K-12)
-Teachers given too much power and influence in children's lives. The rebellious kids who act out and question the system are quickly detained and punished. In the early years of education, kids are taught how to behave in society by unreliable mentors.
-Education is justified by the phrase: "Do well so you'll get into a good college." That about sums it up. We've all bought into the cult of college- huge tuition payments, PowerPoint lectures, and binge drinking seem to be the perfect way to kill any semblance of critical thinking ability in a student.
-College degrees are a gate-keeping status symbol that keeps the rich rich and the poor poor. The government shells out tons of scholarship money for disadvantaged kids, but even they aren't given a full-ride, and have to deal with student loan debt beyond their means. Kids are lured into college simply because it's what their parents did, and there was barely ever a question about the matter. You go to college to get a good job- there's nothing else- if you don't go to college, you will be a poor loser. They don't tell you about 6th year philosophy majors who work full time at a factory, or drop outs who run start up dotcoms. They don't tell you that a tech school certification leads to a more financially secure job than a BA (Seriously, I'm sure you know at least one college grad who assumed college would be their ticket into the job market who was shocked that their degree didn't qualify them for anything more than "Starbucks Barista" or "Cubicle Drone"
-Educational systems teach discipline over curious inquiry, and while this is fine for some kids (those who will go on to careers in the military, etc), it's killing any passion that kids still have. By the time typical kids become typical adults, they've settled down into a miserable job that pays the bills and given up on their simple dreams that should have been nurtured from childhood.

In addition to science, math, english, history, etc, they need to teach kids manners. No, seriously. Imagine a society full of polite children, holding open doors for one another and such and rushing to help up someone who fell down. The Bystander Effect is disgusting and needs to be eliminated.

Another thing to teach people is awareness. Part of the reason The Bystander Effect happens is because (according to my theory) most people aren't self-aware. They float through life not really actually doing anything, but reacting automatically as one does in a dream. These are the people that don't get philosophy, math, and things like that, because they are too busy dreaming.

And when someone commits suicide, they take out their phones and snap a photo. That boy wouldn't have committed suicide if everyone around him weren't a bunch of fake dreamers, not even aware of their own existence.

>>1773068
>Part of the reason The Bystander Effect happens is because (according to my theory) most people aren't self-aware.

The Bystander Effect happens because humans just naturally don't want to be the first person to act, and because of pluralistic ignorance (you're calm because you look around and see and bunch of calm faces, but those people are all calm because they look around and see the same thing).

Don't see how education reform is going to help with that unless we're going to have classes on critical thinking, rationality, self-awareness, psychology, etc.

Constant testing in smaller amounts spread throughout the schooling year/s so as to dispel fear of tests and attain a more accurate result due to minimising of such factors as stress, tiredness, distractedness etc?

Extreme discipline through any means necessary to optimally condition students then condensing of curriculum, establishment of a base most curriculum designed to introduce children to a work force as quickly and effectively as possible if they don't want to/are unsuitable for the more academic pursuits.

If you want a school system that sends everyone off to become enlightened individuals with a solid head on their shoulders than that is something entirely different and I would say the first step is to stop demeaning people under a certain age and encouraging them to think, standardising that philosophy course guy way up there^ was talking about.

At any rate, most suggestions to be found anywhere to do with the education system are rather temporary as the system to begin with is fundamentally broken, you'd need to start asking such questions as the whats and the whys of education before going into how.

>>1773068
>doesn't want a bunch of zonked-out airheads
Honestly, the closest thing I've seen to people who live with purpose, discipline, and concentration are monks. Things the school system could take from monasticism:
-Uniforms. Less distracting, gives a sense of identity even if it's a shared identity.
-Contemplation/Meditation. There's usually a thoughtful kid or two in a class, but you don't often see schoolchildren who have any capacity to concentrate for any period of time.
-Stricter readings. Monks study texts. Early Irish monks were fine scholars. Overwhelmingly, even in college courses, students simply ignore the textbook.

You see what 4chan can do when they put their minds to it?

crypto-fascism: the thread

bitches don't know shit bout alfie kohn

>>1773295
complain a lot and do nothing meaningful?

>>1772800
>doesn't see anything wrong with the fact that testing backward is the best way to take a standardized test

MORE MONEY.

>>1773329
this. anything else is just idealistic garbage.

if we actually cared about making our citizens intelligent and informed, we would put more money into our schools.

instead, we spend 4 times as much for the ~3 million prisoners we have as the average student.

and we throw 2 trillion dollars away keeping the ultra-wealthy in a separate class from the rest of society with tax cuts while we throw another 1 trillion trying to fight people who are only united by an ideology and can't be defeated by military spending in the first place. Unless you're talking complete genocide, but what's the point?

Here are the things I would change:
1. Eliminate the "pay for high scores" system that No Child Left Behind started. Institute an organization which reviews schools to see if their curriculum is up to date and their teachers are keeping up with the cutting edge. Every school gets reviewed at least once every two years.
2. Extend public education. Up to a bachelor's degree is free.
3. Eliminate tenure. Implement a system where teachers are reviewed not just by peers, but by students. The teachers that get the best reviews get perks (choice of class, ability to guide the curriculum), but not tenure. When cuts come around, drop the teachers with the worst reviews.
4. Digitize everything. All books would be digital. All schoolwork would be in digital form, and transmitted to the teacher at due time. Students are given a tablet or laptop in early school, which they can potentially carry with them to graduation. Losing this laptop or tablet requires payment to replace, but if the student retains the laptop or tablet by the time that curriculum requires their replacement, the replacement is free once you turn the previous one in.
5. Get rid of the "publish or die" system. Professors aren't merely measured by how many papers they published. This goes back to #3: the most important things should be peer and student review.

6. Legalize drugs and gambling. Pump all tax revenue from these two things straight into schools.
7. Do not tie school to specific age groups. People of any age should be able to get an education. Use entrance exams to figure out what classes they need be placed in. Do not drop kids just because they get too old. Do not prohibit adults from still getting an education.
8. Do not drop failing kids. People learn at different paces. Instead, allow them to move at their pace, and monitor their progress through something similar to the entrance exams in #7.
9. Institute a jobs program for students age 16+. This helps them get into the job market easier. Grant tax breaks to businesses that actually hire students, but ONLY AFTER THEY HIRE THEM (and maintain their employment for a full year). Increase taxes on people who are still students (alternative to making them pay tuition and such). Accommodate their school time so that they can attend school while still working.

I might also try to implement a free virtual schooling program. It would require far less maintenance than a brick & mortar school, and could have far more students. If it is tax-supported, you could have K-16 (up to bachelors, remember?) virtual institutes with tens of thousands of students with minimal tax costs.

Well the biggest problem I see with the education system, at least in the schools in my area, is a lack of punishment. My friend's younger brother is a prime example. I love that kid and I think he should be expelled. He's in 10th grade and so far this year he has threatened a teacher, threatened fellow students, cursed on a constant basis, shoved people down a stairwell and choked someone in front of a teacher, and the worse they've given him is an in-school suspension.

Teachers are too afraid to punish students because if they do, uppity parents will take them to court, and the schools can't even afford the legal bills so the teachers just let the students get away with this shit.

I have no idea how to fix this other than school systems manning up and starting to punish students. It's not like there's a real case, every year at that school opens with the students and their parents being forced to sign a paper saying the child will follow the school rules and accept the punishment, so it should be a pretty clear case.

>>1773349
>>1773350
The only thing I didn't see eye-to-eye with you on is having it adjusted to k-16. I think that we have moved away from the idea of a 'higher education' and have almost made it mandatory to get this extra education... but at OUR expense. I've heard it coined this before, but it's '"educational inflation." If we could just keep our standards at a higher level and not lower them like what's been happening than I don't see why out of high school graduates shouldn't be able to get entry level jobs and NOT have to worry about the crazy amounts of money for college.

That being said, I do think that if the student is doing well in college, and that's of course if they have made the decision to attend, than the government should pay for ALL of the tuition. If America wants smarter students, maybe they shouldn't be making them decide if the debt and no job security is worth it. College shouldn't be a must like it's becoming, it should be receiving that extra education that is necessary for certain jobs and fields or what not.

Your thoughts?

>>1773372

We should probably set up an educational court, which can handle a high yield of cases from school problems. An increase in school monitoring should probably also occur. I may be against having a big brother society where there are cameras watching you at all times, but you really don't need privacy while on school grounds (except perhaps the locker room).

>>1773421
>The only thing I didn't see eye-to-eye with you on is having it adjusted to k-16. I think that we have moved away from the idea of a 'higher education' and have almost made it mandatory to get this extra education... but at OUR expense. I've heard it coined this before, but it's '"educational inflation." If we could just keep our standards at a higher level and not lower them like what's been happening than I don't see why out of high school graduates shouldn't be able to get entry level jobs and NOT have to worry about the crazy amounts of money for college.

The problem is that the job market today requires far more specialization than it did 50 years ago. While I agree that our standards should be pushed up, it still wouldn't be enough to get you into the doorway of what is considered to be standard jobs. General education, even at college levels, barely qualifies you for an internship and definitely doesn't qualify you for most jobs. Most job fields today require specialized education.

This is why I think K-16 public education is required. What could be done, so that students don't have to go four 17 years total (18 if we made pre-schools public), is that we could set up high school so that students start taking what is basically college-level classes in high school (and finish what would be current high-school-level education by 8th grade). This way they would have the necessary specialized education by the time they hit the age of 18.

>>1773426

It's a good solution by introducing the material at a younger age. I think that was my problem, having to go to school for that much longer. I just hated the idea of making students go that much longer for essentially no guarantee and such.

>>1773439

Another thing I would like to note is that I did mention accommodating the pace of school to the individual student's ability to learn. This would mean that kids capable of learning faster should have an easier time getting through school than they do today. Who knows? With the digitization of school materials, and the rapid pace of the internet, the next generation of public school might see graduates in their early teens as a commonality.