/lit/ - Literature

IDK I haven't read it. After I read his letters to his wife I decided to never read anything by this freak again.

>>17646538
The greatest Irish novel of all time. Which is not saying much. It is good though.

Incredible use of steam of consciousness, unfortunately most of it is really boring.

>>17646538
Greatest prose of all time.

>>17646538
Nonsense written by a neurotic man going senile

Best written work of all time. Joyce wrote it for the pure sake of it being enjoyable for himself to write and for people to read which seperates it from other "master works" by other faggots who wanted their books to have some big meaning or philosophical merit. Ulysses broken down is about a man too afraid to go home because his wife is getting fucked.

>>17646538
Atheistic jewish satanic nonsense.

>>17647231
Joyce is neither atheistic, Jewish or satanic

>>17647241
>Jewish
>Irish
whats the difference

Possibly the greatest novel ever written

>>17646538
>whatchya in fo'? *smacks lips* I say I say I say whatchya in fo'? Some pipo be in fo' de murda, udda pipo done be stealin' all up in hia. I be in hia fo' de rape. Wassat? You's dropped de soap? Bendova boy! *kiss kiss kiss*

I've tried again and again to get in to James Joyce, but I guess I'm just a brainlet and I don't "get it." Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake read like just a bunch of dreamy bullshit to me, I'm totally incapable of comprehending it properly. Dubliners was good, though.

Please help, how do I appreciate Joyce? A lot of people tell me there is gold at the end of this rabbit hole. It has been recommended to me that I read Joseph Campbell's "Skeleton Key to Finnegan's Wake."

>>17647224
I disagree with your interpretation entirely, but this is the precise reason why Ulysses is the greatest book ever written. It contains so much that it is a universe it allows for me and you to quarrel on it for centuries to come and it is, hands down, the most enjoyable book to reread multiple times I ever had the luck to read. One of the few merits of this board is having recommended this autistically over the course of several years, for which I thank you all wholeheartedly. My life is, unironically, better because I lived in a world where this book can be read.

>>17647983
Finnegans Wake is on an entirely different level. For Ulysses, my advice is to go for multiple reads. First time you will likely need a guide, I'd suggest the New Bloomsday Book if you want something cheap to start with. Second time will be more enjoyable and so many times to come after that: once you start having the handle of what is happening in the chapters, many, many details will reveal themselves to you. But you need to take it slowly and go over the text multiple times. Truly, for me Ulysses is less a text you "read" or "study" and more of a text you "play with". Even the average reading session should involve, in my opinion, going back and forth to re-examine paragraphs. At least, this is how I enjoy it. But you need to at least read the whole thing once to start having real fun with it.

Same is true for Finnegans Wake - only, way harder. There's a hypertext online breaking up the words (finwake.com) and The Skeleton Key is good place to start. I had tried to have a reading group going in here about it, but it didn't fly. If you check the archives, however, there might be some bibliographical advice. I took some from here: >http://fractiousfiction.com/fwtoolkit.html
Tindall is good, Ellmann is generally great for Joyce in general, including Ulysses.
Also, a trick that really worked for me for FW was reading it out loud. Subvocalizing wasn't enough especially because words sometimes have weird spelling for things that become perfectly clear when spoken out loud.

However, anon, if you haven't read Portrait yet, start with that. It's less challenging than Ulysses, and it sets out Stephen as a characters. It is an incredible book, and really helps you get through Joyce.
Don't give up! I also had to reread it, but it was easily the most rewarding reading experience of my life.

>>17646541
Yeah your right. The only thing you need to read by joyce are the letters to his wife and maybe the part in Penelope when she fantasizes about telling poldy to "lick my shit"
The novel itself isn't very interesting unless your into stylistic experimentation and brilliant, subterranian level character studies. If the idea of joyce pushing as many limits as he could as a writer and making great characters using a million different angles doesnt interest you, skip it.

>>17648823
God damn, if these are the Joyce fans, im not sure I like him anymore. What terrible, cringeworthy prose you got there, bud

>>17647224
>it has no meaning
lmao midwit

>>17646538
autism, but the good kind

Masturbation

>>17646538
Fart in my mouth
Ineluctable modality
My visual's residual
I tongue your anal cavity
Molly, Greta, Barnacle
Their asses I devour
In this downtown carnival
They screaming, "Henry Flower!"

Mmmm. . .

That's a sour toot
Squealing from her bowel chute
Boylan makes a power move
While I play the coward Jew

See my homie there, joking with Jesus?
- - Can you believe this?
Don't believe enough to take to my knees
When momma needs it
Don't believe enough to let the poor gimp girl be
Gunna strangle my dangler, hope the Lord don't see

>>17648884
>Truly,
cringe

>for me Ulysses is less a text you "read" or "study" and more of a text you "play with".
This is beyond stupid. Read the annotations. There's nothing to play with. Everything is perfectly set. Every word.

>>17650237
Imagine misinterpreting my comment and then claiming to understand Ulysses, must be fun being as retarded as you.

>>17647224
>big meaning or philosophical merit
so you think Ulysses doesn’t have these?

>>17652159
It doesnt lean into them, its a side dish to the characters/experimentation

>>17652159
Not as the focus, they exist but it's not the main point of the book.

>>17652170
I see. What do you think is the focus or main point of the book

>>17652229
The main focus of the book, from Joyce's perspective was always to have Dublin be shown to world because so little had actually been written and done about it, despite it being the 2nd city of the Empire. That is why Dublin itself is painted in such detail and after that it was for it to be an enjoyable book for everyone from the working man up to the academics, most of the philosophy you encounter is pure pub philosophy or political ramblings that you would hear down the pub; time and time again Ulysses gets over-analyzed by students and academics that they end up missing what Joyce wrote it for, and don't get me started on the over analyzing of common Irish phrases like it was some code.

So is Buck Mulligan a bad guy or is it just banter? Cause I really like him but I can't tell if I'm missing something or Stephen is just a fag.

>>17652303
>was always to have Dublin be shown to world
No it wasn't. Why do you say that? It's ridiculous.

>That is why Dublin itself is painted in such detail
That's not why. And 'in detail'... you can't rebuild Dublin in your mind's eye from just the text.

>most of the philosophy you encounter
What do you think the philosophy was...?

>over-analyzed
How so? Don't hand wave. I've read quite a bit on it, but never ran into over-analysis, just autism hunting details that would help the reader 'see' better.

>end up missing what Joyce wrote it for
To celebrate a city that he thrashes and its inhabitants whom he insults viciously?

>don't get me started on the over analyzing of common Irish phrases like it was some code
Please elaborate.

>>17646538
One of my friends told me that it's one of the most extraordinary and profound experiments ever to have been undertaken with the flexible medium of the novel.

I've been told that it's one of the most extraordinary and profound experiments ever to have been undertaken with the flexible medium of the novel, just like >>17651404

>>17652399
Actually joyce bragged that you could literally rebuild much of dublin after reading the book

>>17652404
exactly that's what i tried to say here >>17652412

>>17652379
The book is partly a hit piece on Gogarty. The stuff Joyce has Buck say would have been extremely offensive at the time.

But at the same time, Mulligan is a literary recreation of Gogarty from Gogarty's own writing and sayings and interactions with Joyce. I'd say his likability and character shine through... the world has changed enough that he comes off as just lively and funny. And Stephen as an oversensitive grudge-holding fag.

>>17652399
Also, joyce obviously loved dublin like pynchon loves america. Its not a "wOaH dUbLiN sO gOoD", its an acknowledgement of the fuck shit and potential for the future. See joyces poetry.

>>17652420
I couldn't have said it better myself.

>>17652435
Samefag nigger

>>17652421
He reportedly said that, yes. Use your head. Can you rebuild it from just the text? Absolutely not. Take, for example, references to where the Blooms lived over the years... there is zero relative distance provided. Are you aware from the novel how far the drop at Eccles was in Ithaca? How would you rebuild it? Use your fucking brain, anon.

>>17652435
My grandma told me it's one of the most extraordinary and profound experiments ever to have been undertaken with the flexible medium of the indian horse forum


>>17652440
it's within the same minute we can't samefag this

>>17652399
>No it wasn't. Why do you say that? It's ridiculous.
Joyce said it himself retard read his letters.
>That's not why. And 'in detail'... you can't rebuild Dublin in your mind's eye from just the text.
"to give a picture of Dublin so complete that if the city one day suddenly disappeared from the earth it could be reconstructed out of my book"
>What do you think the philosophy was...?
What do you think it was? Half of the stuff was mocking the jingoistic Irish nationalists, the entire cyclops episode is about this for one.
>How so? Don't hand wave. I've read quite a bit on it, but never ran into over-analysis, just autism hunting details that would help the reader 'see' better.
Character analysis on Buck Mulligan is one major part and it's encountered nearly immediately because of how prominent he is in Telemachus; I've had to read through everything from him and Stephen being secret lovers to him being the archetype "new Gael" that Joyce rejected when in reality anybody with a bit back reading would see he was just an exaggerated version of Oliver Gogarty.
>To celebrate a city that he thrashes and its inhabitants whom he insults viciously?
Joyce wrote what the City was like, he made it as realistic as possible, by the time he was writing Ulysses most of his bitterness and spite for Ireland had left him, it's actually a big reason why the Dead was the last written Dubliners story, because it's probably the only one that ends on a positive note, Gabriel has a positive character development compared to the stagnant and desperate crew that came before. Ulysses also ends positively, Bloom is the ultimate underdog and ends up winning the love of Molly at the end (although it had nothing really to do with what he did that day) and she realises how nice a man he really is. The man didn't say "When I die Dublin will be written on my heart" for the craic he loved the place and he came to realise that very early into his move abroad.
>Please elaborate.
Here's an example, you know when the narrator in Cyclops says "can a swim duck?" in response to being asked if he wanted a drink? I've seen people try and make that out to show that the backwards speech reflected the backwards thinking and attitudes of the Irish, total nonsense but anyway.

>>17652379
What this lad said>>17652431 Joyce was raged at Gogarty and never fully forgave him despite Gogary's best efforts, his charm and wit are perfect but he was made out to be much worse by Stephen and Bloom than what he really was. Funnily enough in Gogarty's "Tumbling in the Hay" he re-writes Oxen and the Sun and has a character called Kinch there who is out of his depth, although Gogarty's self-insert is called Gideon not Buck unfortunately.

>>17652513
>Joyce said it himself retard read his letters.
I assure you, he doesn't. I'm not sure why you think it's in his letters. It's from Budgen's book. And it's reportedly said by Joyce. I'm correct. You're an ass.

https://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/JoyceColl/JoyceColl-idx?type=turn&entity=JoyceColl.BudgenUlysses.p0092&id=JoyceColl.BudgenUlysses&isize=M&pview=hide

And you still cannot rebuild Dublin in your mind's eye from the text. You also can't draw a blueprint on paper. Some areas, you can try, like the tower's interior and 7 Eccles. It's just not there. And that's not an insult to the novel.

>What do you think it was?
From your example, which went over your head: Say aloud what makes a Cyclops a Cyclops. Now look at his 1920 schema for the chapter. Now think of the countries. Pretty cool, you have to admit. I'd say that's a little deeper philosophical commentary...

>Character analysis on Buck Mulligan
>secret lovers
"Staunch friend, a brother soul: Wilde’s love that dare not speak its name. His arm: Cranly’s arm." Obviously secret lovers is too far. So yes, you're right, that's over-analyzing. Still, what should you read into that?

>being the archetype "new Gael"
Is it a stretch that the milk woman is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Ni_Houlihan

>She bows her old head to a voice that speaks to her loudly, her bonesetter, her medicineman: me she slights.

Clear to me. Not a stretch.

>Gabriel has a positive character development compared to the stagnant and desperate crew that came before
I consider this over-analysis.

>she realises how nice a man he really is
That's a definite stretch. Her positive memories of him come up, sure... Realizing how nice a man he is? Bloom winning the love of Molly while she's also thinking about fucking Stephen? I don't know about that. Bloom'll get his breakfast in bed, I guess.

>I've seen people try and make that out to show that the backwards speech reflected the backwards thinking and attitudes of the Irish
Get away from these people.

>What this lad said >>17652431 (You)
=^)

Oh you're the Gogarty Kid. Sorry for calling you an ass, baby.

>>17652455
Dipshit cope

>>17652831
>I assure you, he doesn't. I'm not sure why you think it's in his letters. It's from Budgen's book. And it's reportedly said by Joyce. I'm correct. You're an ass.
>And you still cannot rebuild Dublin in your mind's eye from the text. You also can't draw a blueprint on paper. Some areas, you can try, like the tower's interior and 7 Eccles. It's just not there. And that's not an insult to the novel.
I was mistaken, I was sure I read it in his letter I'm sorry. My point stands though, we still know that he had relatives and friends tell him about streets and send photographs of places in the city so he could help build it in the book, just because he wasn't 100% successful doesn't mean he didn't attempt it. He attempted to write Finnegans Wake so everybody could read it but it never happened. We also have no reason to doubt what he "reportedly" said either.
>From your example, which went over your head: Say aloud what makes a Cyclops a Cyclops. Now look at his 1920 schema for the chapter. Now think of the countries. Pretty cool, you have to admit. I'd say that's a little deeper philosophical commentary..
I mean it's not that philosophical, it's light and amusing, it's not at all what some people make things out to be; I mean you could do the same with Calypso or any of the chapters really; the deepest would probably be Oxen and The Sun in my opinion but as I said it's not as deep as people make it out to be.
>Still, what should you read into that?
Well Stephen is Joyce, we know that Joyce was not gay and Cranly who was based off Byrne if I remember right wasn't gay, neither was Gogarty so there's no reason to think or even assume that Stephen was gay. Stephen's thoghts obviously went from "friend ->brother soul -> soulmate ->Wilde. He was orignally speaking about Mulligan in that quote and Gogarty was tutored by Wilde's tutor at Oxford and his wit was very close to that of Wilde's.
>Is it a stretch that the milk woman is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Ni_Houlihan
No, it was a concept of a new mold of Irishman that was intensely nationalistic and connected to old myths of celtic origin over the catholic Ireland, a very tired concept that didn't really go anywhere but was popular among some of Joyce's friends.
>I consider this over-analysis.
Not really, he's literally the only character that actually grows positively in the entire book. He rejected Ireland and it's language (like Joyce did) and then softened at the end and was much more sympathetic. Paralysis is the main theme of Dubliners and Gabriel doesn't fit that mold at all.
>That's a definite stretch.
I mean the last part of the book is her reminiscing about what Bloom fucking her and proposing, compared to that morning I think some solid progress was made lol.
>Get away from these people.
Harder than you think.
>Sorry for calling you an ass, baby.
No I'm upset now that I'm up at nearly 1am shitposting this.

>>17653146
>doesn't mean he didn't attempt it.
He didn't communicate any interiors clearly. I don't think he attempted it. And that's reason to doubt the rather ridiculous brag. If it were in his letters, I'd look at it differently. But it'd still be ridiculous.

>it's light and amusing
I don't find its philosophical point light or amusing, considering the other "I"...

>so there's no reason to think or even assume that Stephen was gay
Well we know Wilde's love isn't brotherly love. Certainly a swishy thing to think. Especially in light of Cranly, where that swishiness comes up in Portrait.

>Houlihan
I can't make up or down of your response. Both Gogarty and Joyce are Irish ubermensch in the world of arts. At the time, Ireland preferred Gogarty.

>it's language
bruh

>he's literally the only character that actually grows positively
I doubt Joyce would stoop to something so common. Gabriel is as cringe as any of the other characters in the novel.

>>17653109
Nice analysis.

>>17647983
>gold at the end of this rabbit hole
kek.

Just two assblasted anons trying to out autism one another.

>>17647983
>Please help, how do I appreciate Joyce?
Read the annotations then read the chapter they're for. The gold is there. At least re Ulysses.

Skeleton Key sucks, btw. You'll get more from this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyMubEjUAIk

>>17653794
Btw does anyone have an epub file of rejoyce by Burgess. I can only find pdfs. Just finished Ulysses and want to understand it better.

>>17653865
Read Kenner's books. They're fairly short and he has great insights. No one better.

>>17653722
BASED

>>17646538
I'm halfway through (beginning of Oxen of the Sun) and having a great time. I don't find it boring at all. I waited until I was adequately prepared to start my first read. Then I was pleasantly surprised by its clarity. It is a deeply pleasurable read.

>>17646541
Literally pleb filtered

>>17647983
ulysses was really easy to read for me, took me 3 months for having to google words. It makes complete sense. You dont even understand the first chapter? It's fully lucid.

>>17648823
what a shitty post. How do you disagree with his interpretation? I was enlightened a little by it, as though I recognized that in my sub concious, it had not appeard to me in words, similarly to how Bloom doesn't realize that's the reason he doesn't want to go home, i was more focused on him trying not to think about it, which i guess would be a better description.

>>17648888
great description
>>17651279
i think he means that the text is playful, and that you have to keep the whole in mind to get in jokes and such, though if he meant what you accuse him of meaning than yeah just plain wrong as a general rule.
>>17652431
Joyce appreciated him, that's why he portrayed himself as the bad guy in that relationship, a pussy.
>>17654766
howd you feel about the latinate sentence? took me like 3 days to process it(because its correct).

>>17646542
>not saying much
ireland is one of the better countries for literature tho

>>17653543
>He didn't communicate any interiors clearly.
Joyce did a fine job at describing the city, he did it well enough that tours are given using just the instructions from the book around Dublin, although it has obviously changed since then. That wasn't my main point anyway, my main point is that he thought Dublin was seriously underrepresented in fiction and put great effort into describing it, which he undeniably did.
>I don't find its philosophical point light or amusing, considering the other "I"...
Well that's not my fault lol.
>Well we know Wilde's love isn't brotherly love.
Yes but as I said Gogarty was very tied to Wilde in his personality and who he studied under, it's not that much of a jump to make when you know the background.
>Both Gogarty and Joyce are Irish ubermensch in the world of arts. At the time, Ireland preferred Gogarty.
At the time Joyce wasn't even entertained by most, Gogarty knew he had talent but he was focused on poetry, by far his weakest area.
>I doubt Joyce would stoop to something so common. Gabriel is as cringe as any of the other characters in the novel.
The book wasn't all written at once though, as I said The Dead was written last, originally the book ended with Grace. It's undeniable that Gabriel grows positively and literally every other main character in the stories don't. The books is highly negative with The Dead ironically being quite positive.

>>17655068
He's wrong but even if the book is about Bloom not wanting to go home because his wife is getting fucked, it's a bit reductive to say that that's all the book is about

>>17651279
>>17655119
What I meant is that I read texts in any way or manner I find enjoyable. I leave the ultimate meaning of literature to scholars and focus on enjoying thinking about the book. I honestly do not give a smoking shit about what a supposed ultimate meaning of a text is, nor does it make my experience in any way more enjoyable to "figure out what the author meant" or "figure out" anything about a supposedly objective content of the text. I like reading and I like thinking as a consequence of reading. Asking whether my thoughts about literatureare, or any piece of art for what matters, are "right" sounds like an entirely pointless question to me.

>>17655325
I like you better at 1am and angry. Wtf is this shit.

I will say, after an enormous literary effort I felt like I was 'there' 'in' a version of 'Dublin' throughout the novel. It did not make me want to visit.

>>17655517
huh

bump

>>17655517
kek, i Don't know what you're saying, but what we're saying is the sentence "this shovel is to dig a hole" isn't something you play around with, it's a picture, as is the novel ulysses, I mean, of course everyone has their own life, though the point of the novel is that we all have the same life, hence why we can relate to the book.
>>17655495
What's your interpretation. Also that's not what he said lol.

>>17648884

>I'd suggest the New Bloomsday Book if you want something cheap to start with

I'm guessing you haven't worked a day of your miserable life

>>17659191
the annotations made the book perfectly clear for me... what's the deal with this?