/lit/ - Literature

>>17590426
nietzsche

>Camus
>Actual philosopher

>>17590426
fuck off r*ddit and kill yourself you pathetic piece of shit

>>17590441
>dude life is absurd just enjoy the sunlight lmao

>>17590441
Absurdism is so cringe.

>You should not kill yourself... because that’s too easy and having a goal will give you fulfillment even if it is false

read Camus again because you clearly read it the wrong way if his philosophy made you depressed.

>>17590426
The reason to fight is not given to you - that is the logic of a slave. The meaning of life is something one must rise up to and seize with his own hands. Of course, that's not for everyone, and it's ok to kill yourself, I suppose.

>>17590447
Good suggestion, but committing suicide would just be obeying the natural impulse of removing myself from the gene pool so I don’t hog resources away from my optimist, reproduction focused family

It’s still a lie

>>17590426
Dude, God is the only way. No meaning without God, without meaning no reason to act other than maximization of pleasure.

>>17590498
Yeah, it would be nice to have unflinching faith, but it’s way too hard. Too many contradictions and holes in logic

>>17590486
That’s nice anon. It’s still existentialism. Distracting yourself from meaningless by setting goals for yourself won’t make the void go away.

I’m glad it worked for you though

>>17590532
The problem of evil isn't much of a problem at all when the pain is measured against eternity. It's a deeply materialist criticism. You don't intellectualize yourself into faith anyway. You act as if it were real and then it becomes real.

>>17590426
>I fried my dopamine receptors and motivation after
You guys really need to stop this nonsense.

>>17590594
The “acting” part is so difficult. But I guess finding solace was never meant to be easy. Thanks for the advice

So you don’t want people who say there’s a Meaning to life (religion) nor those who say that you create the meaning after existence (existentialism) nor those who say it’s about pleasure.

What are you even looking for?

>>17590612
I’m looking for a meaning, or a set of values that’s somehow objectively true and verifiable. But it doesn’t seem to exist. I can’t bring myself to just forget about it all and live on either. Once you’ve bitten the fruits of hell, you’re there to stay

>>17590630
Meaning is based on what something does, the purpose of a thing is what it does. Figure out what you do and stop trying to wallow in aesthetic depression.

>>17590487
You're a retard, and evolutionary psychology is a cancer.

>>17590608
It's more complex than solace. Christianity specifically is a highly militant faith, suddenly each decision you have made in your life is weighed by a divine judge against an ideal. There's consolation in meaning but it is also terrifying. The faith demands a martial discipline where you align your every thought and action in this world towards the good, no matter the wordly price you pay.

>>17590653
Interesting. Your faith, therefore, is not only a bandaid on the existential dread, but a strong code to live by. A test. I respect this.

>>17590447
kys faggot

>>17590639
This is a good answer. I'm a system, and system do things. Thinking of oneself as an important thing that deserves freedom and independance is perhaps just an illusion. Thank you.

The only thinker I know of who attempts to show that life is objectively meaningful without appealing to god or hedonic pleasure is Ayn Rand. Aristotle is close, but that isn't really a question that would come up for the ancients. Maybe you could say Kant, but he'll probably just make you want to kill yourself even more. Unironically, you should read the Fountainhead.

>>17590426
>considering dropping everything
>Pic related
You clearly don't understand pic related...

>>17590692
This is certainly the last thing I would have expected. But your point does make sense.

Damn, I've never expected myself to be downloading ayn rand books from libgen, but here we are.

Thank you.

>>17590544
the existence of the void is not the point. it's how you respond to that knowledge

>>17590701
I am the people in the top half in the pic
>>17590705
I just feel like blindfolding myself in response to my knowledge of its existence is unsatisfactory. Some can do it and be fulfilled, like the Christian anon in this thread. But for me, it would take so much effort. I'm looking for an alternative.

>>17590426
I had something very similar happen, I had a complete mental breakdown after reading and dwelling on too much nihilist philosophy. I just went on a walk. The sun felt nice, the grass was pretty, and it was fun to watch a pair of squirrels chase eachother around a tree. I took a nap on a large log, woke up and hour later and just headed home. So to actually answer your question, I dont think you will find "intellectual" reasons to live, but the very fact that you are searching for justification for your life is proof of something, is it not? The world is a beautiful place when you let go a little bit. Hope this wasn't to faggoty and helped a bit.

>>17590729
Not at all faggotry, that's beautiful. Sounds a lot like absurdism; finding the search for meaning meaningful in itself, even if it's doomed to failure.

Very heartwarming. thank you

>>17590724
oh I see. Ok you did understand pic related then.
>blindfolding myself
but nobody's asking you to do that. I'm an atheist, I have no hopes of any sensation or thought after my death. For myself, a major discovery I had was that I was viewing my life as a story, like a book. And the idea of getting closer to the end of the book terrified me. But I made the realization that life is not a linear story, it's a cycle that slowly changes. My life isn't a month or year or decade and how things change over that time -- my life is every day, the 16 or so hours I spend awake every day. Everything else is an illusion, an attempt to reconcile our own lives with the stories we hear. But my life isn't the life of Odysseus, or Frodo, or Jesus, or Alexander, or Raskolnikov, or Gatsby, or Don Quixote, or Faust, or anyone. My life is what I do every day. And yesterday and tomorrow don't matter to that. I just live this day. Because when else can I live? As soon as you reject this linear view of human life, it becomes clear that there's nothing to worry about. You will never die, except one day. And every other day, you will not die. And the day you die, you will still not die for many hours and minutes. You'll just live. In the moment. And then one moment, you won't. But you were always in the moment, so it never mattered. You never lived your death. Every moment you lived, you were alive. There's no reason to cry.

>>17590786
Rejecting the constant striving, seeing life as a cycle, and living for the present moment. Reminds me a lot of secular buddhism.

This is a good answer. People like you don't put on blindfolds, they simply don't let themselves get affected, or hurt by the meaninglessness. They accept its existence, and realize that death will come eventually. But that's okay, because it isn't there yet.

Thank you.

>>17590827
>secular buddhism
the way you put it sounds like that too, to me, but I assure you, this philosophy can be found in western tradition too. I'm no big philosophy nut, but a lot of my views come from Seneca, a Roman stoic, and Adler, one of Freud/Jung's contemporaries. I even find value in religious texts, in a way, as long as I interpret rather than just read and absorb. I think I find more affirmation of my worldview when I read from hedonists and the religious, because I see how, even many of the religious, who have found their comfort in the belief in the next world, are still obsessed with death and unable to truly live. Whereas I am neither obsessed with it nor ignore it. I would be lying if I said it were the most comfortable subject in the world -- I think that is an ideal few can ever reach -- but it's not a matter of terror or obsession the way it was for me when I was a Christian. I am so much more free to live my life now than I ever was before.

>>17590426
camus killed himself tho

>>17590993
that was a hit job. the CIA cut his brakes

>>17590993
fucking spoilers dude

>>17591014
Nah, he grabbed the wheel from the passenger seat and drove them into a tree. He did this to cement his legacy and avoid being exposed as a fraud/pseud.

Existentialism and by extension absurdism is quite literally the final episode in the philosophy series. It’s wholly correct and is the final exploration of what philosophers have always been discussing, even back when Aurelius was writing.

>>17590594
>The problem of evil isn't much of a problem at all when the pain is measured against eternity. It's a deeply materialist criticism.
Way to miss the point. The problem of evil in its evidential form is that the existence of evil is surprising given theism, but expected given atheism - and hence constitutes evidence in favor of the later and against the former. To reply by pointing out the greatness of the afterlife in heaven is to fail to understand what the argument is about.

>>17591014
>>17591552
>>17590993
wait this is all just speculation though right? nothing is known with any certainty at all

>>17590441
everyone who writes an arguement is a philosopher

>>17591713
No, the two chicks in the back seat survived the crash and are on record saying this.

>>17591713
Don't listen to these retards. He died in an accident. An unused train ticket was found in his pocket, indicating he was going to go by train before opting for the car.

>>17590426
Philosophy is masturbatory garbage, you're better off smoking weed and watching pornography. You sound like me when I was 12 years old and read Nietzsche.

>>17591737
why would I care what a woman was tricked into believing?

>>17591764
They saw him grab the wheel

>>17590426
Therapy, enjoy. You are probably sick.

>>17591790
Post proof or gtfo

>>17591790
again, why would I believe that?

>>17591754
>DUDE’s opinion on anything remotely intellectual

Didn't Wittgenstein already show that all philosophy is just word games? I honestly don't give two shits about it, but I know some dumb "thought experiment" like the ship of Theseus is literally just arguing about what the fucking thing is called or how it can be classified. Who cares.

>>17591810
not all but a sad amount. yeh

>>17591809
>another self aggrandizing "I'm an intellectual" poster

>>17590426
>camus
>dude just live lmao
wow great argument

>>17591839
>dude just live lmao
you literally can not refute this though.

>>17591803
>>17591805
its documented just google it

>>17591853
Survival is hardcoded by evolution. That doesn't mean it's valuable universally and objectively. Just that life values it.

>>17591809
> man reads philosophy and unironically believes all philosophers are intellectuals even though most of their dogmas are inapplicable and most civilized human unwittingly follow religious philosophies
> man actually believes he can 'elevate himself' intellectually by discussing life instead of living it

>>17591693
If you attribute significance to moral behaviour which obviously is at the center of religion then evil is not just expected but necessary. You would simply be unable to play the game without it.

>>17591946
>If you attribute significance to moral behaviour which obviously is at the center of religion then evil is not just expected but necessary.
Except that presupposes that virtue cannot exist without evil, which is against the traditional theistic view of evil as privation.

>>17591853
>just live
why?
>well uh you uhh...just live OK??!!

>>17592160
This is the problem with absurdism. It supposes survival is objectively valuable

>lists all the possible solutions
>GTFO

I have achieved the same by smoking weed everyday for fifteen years.
Stopped 2 months ago and real life is a crazy trip, never realised.
I thought weed was an halloucinogen but sobriety is madness, everything is frantic and everybody is frenetic.
Reading Pindar to try and cope, even in translation it's beautiful.
>Beauty, who creates all sweet delights for men, brings honour at will and makes the false seem true time and again; but the wisest witness of all are the days to come.

My recommendation would be to detox from philosophy and drugs or porn or whatever is frying your brains anons and read Greek lyric poetry.

>>17592318
Technically hedonism, but a chad version of it.

Godspeed anon. Maybe a little more beauty in my life will help.

>>17590426
My little sister is named Sophia and I love her so I am a philosopher by default. Sorry retards.

>>17592378
kek

>>17590426
Nick Land

>>17591014
I wouldn't put it past them but why would the CIA want Camus dead

>the only serious philosophical question is are you an hero
>not advocating a cosmic an heroing-by-cop
Leddit philosophy

>>17591946
That distinction seems highly semantic although I am not claiming that my views are orthodox.

>>17592101

>>17593183

>>17590426
There is nothing to be gained with philosophy drop it altogether and read literature.

>>17591792
>report for reconditioning you have become a sub-optimal producer/consumer unit

>>17593560
Based. "Therapy" is just another way to fix gears with broken dents so they can go right back to spinning in circles.

>>17593190
Well if something was essentially evil its teleology would be directed towards an evil end, which goes against the Platonic or Aristotelian background Classical Theists are so fond of. But even if you don't like that kind of metaphysics, there are other issues. Although it is true that some evils may give rise to goods, in a lot of cases it seems preferable if we didn't have the evil in the first case. The existence of cancer enables doctors to heal their patients, but surely it would be better to just not have cancer in the first place. And many evils don't seem to produce anything good at all, or at least none that outweighs the evil. From all of this it can be shown that the existence of evil is very much surprising given theism, and even harder to explain, but perfectly expected given atheism.

>>17593615
The entire Christian worldview is about choosing the cross. Suffering is central to the faith and even determines your place in the divine hierarchy. It takes chutzpah to assert what is preferable concerning the arrangement of the universe. We are not privy to the details here, we don't even know what in the greater scheme of things constitutes an evil and what does not, but we do know that in order to be human the world we inhabit has to be populated by dragons that we can slay. Imagine a world without courage, loyalty or sacrifice. What would be the point? That's exactly what a world without evil/suffering is.

>>17590426
Here you go, OP. Enjoy!

>>17593907
Immensely based and underrated book.

>>17593889
>The entire Christian worldview is about choosing the cross. Suffering is central to the faith and even determines your place in the divine hierarchy.
We are talking about Theism specifically, mere slogans don't explain why evil exists if the source of reality is supremely good.
>It takes chutzpah to assert what is preferable concerning the arrangement of the universe. We are not privy to the details here, we don't even know what in the greater scheme of things constitutes an evil
Raping babies is evil. Easy.
>Imagine a world without courage, loyalty or sacrifice. What would be the point? That's exactly what a world without evil/suffering is.
Loyalty doesn't require evil. As for courage, its value is plausibly to protect valuable things from harm. Creating evil so that you can save things from it seems absurd. But even if courage justifies some evils, that doesn't explain all of them, like babies dying of cancer.

>>17594077
>Raping babies is evil.

Edgy moral nihilist here. Who said that? If I rape a baby and no one knows about it besides me (and the baby who is practically unaware of it), this won't cause much suffering.

>>17590460
>Absurdism is so cringe.
His MoS characterization of the absurd is brilliant, but he ultimately performed his own "philosophical suicide" later in the essay as a cope.
Cioran and Unamuno are more to my liking. I don't hold failure to commit suicide against pessimistic philosophers, for one thing Camus was right about is that the body shrinks from annihilation, regardless of what the mind concludes.

>>17594107
>and the baby who is practically unaware of it
He is certainly aware of the pain. And even if you drugged him first the violation of his bodily autonomy is a separate evil in and of itself.

>>17594077
>Raping babies is evil. Easy.
Funny enough a lot of cultures would disagree but let's say yes, this is an unequivocally evil act. It still does not inform us on whether this ultimately establishes the reality of evil (beyond free will) when all causal effects until the end of time have played out.

>Loyalty doesn't require evil.
Well what's there to be loyal about then? The term seems to describe someone standing besides you even if that becomes unfavorable. Without evil in the broad sense that we're using here there's no such thing as unfavorable and the degree to which loyalty is possible is determined by the amount of unfavorability the universe can offer you. More pain more gain so to speak.

>like babies dying of cancer
Same thing as with rape and don't you think it takes courage to survive that as a parent?

Certainly there are a lot of things that we would reform (and generally can) but it's actually very difficult to imagine a construction of a universe that is kinder than ours given the necessary restriction of morality, which as you say is what you would expect from a loving God. And yes, inb4 Candide.

>>17590426
Process and Reality: An Essay in Cosmology
read it OP

>>17590426
Phenomenology

>>17590426
Read "Lost in the Cosmos." It's a parody of self help books. Short read and you will not regret it.