/lit/ - Literature

>>17571886
He's completely correct, though. He's describing why team sports are based.

>>17571886
What's Chomskys end goal here? Like if we dismantled all power system and lived in an anarchist world, would people not play/watch sports? What would we be doing instead?

>>17571886
Bro you literally aren't reading this right. He's saying the government supports sports because it brainwashes the people, but the people like sports because it's fun

>>17571932
Correct

>>17571886
hes completely and entirely correct

ive said it before and ill say it again
big fan of chomsky

FUCK THIS WEAK ASS NERD on the subject of SPORTS

>>17571886
I disagree that it's "brainwashing" since I don't think it's an active attempt. But sports fans are the biggest bunch of granfalloonsters out there

>>17571886
>filtered
read it again anon

>>17571930
>if no sportsball what do all day?

>>17571930
knitting/twitter

>>17571886
people naturally like feeling attached to a group. It gives a sense of community and camaraderie. Everyone naturally wants this. The problem is, community based on shared ideals, life experiences, etc. are very different that community based on superficial characteristics, like which team I decided to support. They on the surface have similar appeal, but the former can help one's life and the latter does nothing positive whatsoever.

>>17571932
>>17571935

Yeah, it's too bad we can't all be as smart and Chomsky and stop watching sports because we realise we don't know the people on the teams. What a joke. If thr government banned all sports you would all be talking about how the government is trying to repress man's need for creative expression, play, physical greatness, or whatever the fuck. But no since sports are allowed they have to be some brainwashing program by thr government. What does it brainwash us into believing? DUUUH... UH.... THAT POWER... IS... UH..... POWER STRUCTURES BRO!!! Give me a break.

>>17571984
>sports fag is this dumb
is anyone surprised

>>17571990
I don't give a shit about sports. And we're both on 4chan pal so you're not exactly one to condescend on how people should spend their time.

>>17571953
Kek

>>17571886
>>17571886
WHO CARES
LITERATURE
LITERATURE

OP you have a point, but here's not the place. 4chan is a bunch of fat dudes with man titties who evidently spend a lot of time on an internet literature board who were bullied by jocks in high school. They're all going to agree with Chomsky on sports.

If he had said the same thing about anime on the other hand...

>>17572002
that'd be a valid argument if we were discussing two ways of wasting time. But in reality, we're discussing one way of wasting time, one way of wasting time and also corrupting your mind in the process. So obviously sports aren't really that bad in comparison

>>17572002
seethe

>>17572014
>doesn't understand how anime is completely unrelated to Chomsky's remarks
imagine getting filtered by comments directed at normal people. This wasn't page 450 of ulysses, this was a straightforward remark my Chomsky to normies. Still misunderstood.

>>17571886
>>17571941
>>17571984
>>17572014

>>17571886
>STOP WITH THE POWER STRUCTURES ITS MAKING ME FEEL INFERIOR, EVERYTHING THAT CAUSES SUPERIORITY AND INFERIORITY IS BAD!!! SPORTS IS LITERALLY FASCISMMM!!1

What does he think about sports being a daily reminder of the urgent need to achieve racial equity and justice in order to fulfill the promise of the American Dream that we have failed to live up to?

>>17571886
Sometimes irrational jingoism is fun. Chomsky so boring

>>17572037
Another brainlet misses the point. It's ok for the athletes to feel superior / inferior. The illogical thing is for people like you, completely unrelated to the events of the game, to convince themselves that they /are/ somehow connected to the outcome of the game, and feel pride at a win, shame at a loss.

>>17571886
What he says is true, but at the end of the day, he's just a glowie repeating things people said hundreds if not thousands of years ago, as if he's the first ever person to think along such lines.

>>17571886
>babby's first encounter with run of the mill marxist sophistry

>>17571886
has a man ever coped so hard in the 20th century for not getting invited to the jock parties lmfao

>>17572032
am genuinely stunned by the way this went over their heads. i thought the tv/pol invasion was a meme.

>>17572059
>autist with no sense of belongingness angry that others feel a sense of community
Kill yourself subhuman tankie

>>17572073
I'm curious as to how he didn't know any of the players. I was ENTIRELY unpopular in high school, but I still knew like 4-5 of our school's football team.

>>17572075
Go back

>>17571886
poindexter cope

>>17572082
>with no sense of belonging
It's actually the other way around. I already have a sense of belonging through legitimate connections with friends and family, so I don't go around inventing ties to things like sports teams.

>>17571886
The non-midwit is incapable of having fun.

Sports have existed through all time. Roman Gladiators, etc. I guess you can say maybe in the stone age the games were localised within your tribe and so you'd have more of a personal investment in the game and its players. But couldn't you similarly say that being able to invest in a game with people you don't know is a sign that people's empathetic capabilities have expanded? You can say this is bullshit, but surely Chomsky himself would argue that our expanding circle of empathy is a good and necessary thing. It's imperative to his arguments why, for example, Americans should look behind their tribe/nation and care about people dissimilar to themselves in Guatemala.

>>17572091
>sports seethe
ho boy

>>17571930
Reading books

>>17571886
>irrational attitudes of submission to authority and group cohesion behind leadership elements.

This is weird, why is that irrational? 'authority and group cohesion' is objectively a positive thing.

>>17572110
the sports team represents the school and one feels a sense of community with their classmates and school. sorry you are emotionally and mentally stinted

>>17572126
Not when you're a marxist who hates civilisation and society.

>>17571886
What if it's 1v1 sports, like tennis or chess?

>>17572110
Do you seriously think all sports fan have bad relationships with their families? Honestly asking

Also do you seriously expect us to believe that you, a pissy bad tempered 4chan user, are more likely to have a good relationship with your parents than any random sports fan?

>>17572125
And what would be the end goal there?

>>17572110
in the past, tribes with too many people like you had all their men massacred and all their women taken as bounty.

>>17572161
You're saying that like it's a bad thing...?

>>17571886
The point is the group cohesion. You can like sports, but why do you as a supporter support "your team". It's my tribe good, other tribe bad.

>>17572128
>represents the school
the school is also not a legitimate connection
>>17572138
I think the more obsessive one is, the less likely they are to have found meaningful connections elsewhere. It's not an absolutely statement and depends on the person, but I rarely find someone with strong ties to something like a sports team, religion, the army, etc. that has found any sort of fulfillment elsewhere. I don't care what you think about my relationship with my parents, nor do I see how it's relevant (the fact you do is, I think, indicative of the exact mentality I'm arguing against)
>>17572161
See, you're making the same fallacy. A tribe of people traditionally was essentially just a large family. It made sense to protect the tribe, because the people in it mattered to the people defending it. But that's not what a sports team is. No sports fan is going to defend you and your wife from being massacred just because you like the same team as them. But you've convinced yourself that such an attachment exists and is as strong as the attachment of a community that has lived together as a family for years.

>>17572202
0 iq post

>>17572212
are you the same guy from the plato thread? are you going to try to derail this one too?

>>17571886
Commies hate fun because it keeps people away from muh revolution. That's literally it. Now you understand every single left-wing critical theorist/political critic. Commies want people to "realize" they're miserable (whether they're actually miserable or not, some gaslighting is probably involved here) and thus incite a revolution, which is why they will shit on anything that gives you joy and claim it's capitalist mind control (not much different than right-wing shizos that say all media is jewish brainwashing). Whether they're right or not doesn't matter; this is what they ultimately care about. I say all of this as someone that actually agrees with them btw.

>>17572202
You are a deeply stupid person.

>>17572228
>got called 0 iq in two threads by 2 different people
Should tell you something

>>17572248
>2x ad homs with no explanation
yes, that this website is shitty. Also, that you are the guy from the other thread.
>>17572236
would love to hear an argument. anything.

>>17571886
That's funny because when I was in college I asked myself at one point: "Why do I care if I get a good grade in Chomsky's class? I don't know him, he has nothing to do with me...why am I here and listen to him? It does not make any sense." But the point is, it does make sense: It's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority and group cohesion behind leadership elements. In fact it's training in irrational jingoism. That's also a feature of professional academia.

>>17572278
>misunderstanding the original post this bad
yeh, it's clear you didn't mind failing that class

>>17572271
>yes, that this website is shitty.
So leave us already

>>17572296
>leave us
I was here before you got here. You're the one who needs to leave.

He's completely correct.

If you have no relation to the people of your "team" or country or whatever, why be invested? It's just a way of indirectly tricking you into handing over your resources to strangers.

>>17572289
Whats your understanding of it? He's making a good point, Chomsky is arbitrary. If the 'jingoist' authority and group cohesion is beneficial to him and his fellow academic elite then he's all for it. It's just plain self serving, the sports team has 'nothing to do with him' so who cares. In fact, it's probably a fascist institution that should be done away with so the only influence on group behaviour is Chomsky and the rest of the intellectual elite.

>>17572308
People don't reply to your posts because they're stupid. Engaging emotionally and communally with sports is a very ancient tradition celebrated even in the first book of the Western canon. You and Chomsy are both retards and people don't like engaging with retards.

>>17572340
If it's beneficial, it's useful. It's not beneficial 99% of the time though. Sports allegiances are not beneficial. But you're not even arguing against what Chomsky says, you,re just calling him a hypocrite (which maybe he is, idk)
>>17572359
people do reply to my posts, you're just one idiot who gets irrationally angry at things he reads but has no retort other than "uh, hunny, ur wrong"
>engaging emotionally with sports is a very ancient tradition
Yes, humans have been irrational for a long time, this isn't a new phenomenon. It's a misuse of the genetic instinct to protect the tribe. This post here demonstrates it clearly >>17572161 Instinctually, there's a desire to feel connection, because it has been, for most of human prehistory, beneficial. However, once we stopped living in tribes and started developing societies, the (rational) instinct manifested in areas where it is entirely irrational, eg sports.

>>17572412
>Sports allegiances are not beneficial
That's highly debatable, but even if we say that was true, and that is the normal criticism of something like sports. Chomsky isn't even saying that it's bad because sports isn't useful, he's saying it's bad because the values that sports has (teamwork, group cohesion, authority) are somehow self-evidently irrational. Perhaps he has some reason as to why it is irrational in sports but not when it benefits him which is conveniently missing from the quote.

>>17571886
You're right that his "explanation" is not really an explanation—but this isn't an error; it's symptomatic of Chomsky's entire way of thinking. Anything "irrational" (which just means anything Chomsky doesn't like) must be unnatural—because for Chomsky, the natural, the rational, and the good (i.e. whatever he likes) are all the same.

This means that he's incapable of admitting that people like sports for any "natural" reason (for any reason that "makes sense"—like, say, admiration for heroism, need for community, vicarious narrative interest, etc.). Instead it MUST be a result of brainwashing. Because if you disagree with what is natural, rational, and good—if you disagree with Chomsky—you must have been manipulated by THEM.

For Chomsky, the ONLY imaginable answer to the question "why do people like sports?" is: "they've been brainwashed." So he doesn't fail to explain the phenomenon so much as offer the only explanation that's consistent with the first principle from which all of his thought is derived—namely, that Noam Chomsky is right about everything.

>>17571886
Chomsky is an angloid kantian infantile western leftist, only cucks worship him.

>>17572483
you can't read, and yet you criticize others for saying nothing of value. Read the original post a few more times without your initial assumptions about what he's saying, any you might get it.

>>17572412
Sports might be "useless" and thus "irrational"—but then so is all entertainment, all art, all luxury. Or are some pleasures more rational than others?

In any case, Chomsky isn't even arguing that sports are useless—he's arguing that they're useful! So why are they irrational? Apparently because they privilege the collective over the individual. So sports are irrational because they're... communist? Oops. Chomsky's starting to look like a bit of an idiot.

>once we stopped living in tribes and started developing societies
So... once we stopped living in small societies and started living in large societies, caring about anyone other than yourself went from being "rational" to "irrational"? Why?

>>17572575
Explain what I am missing? He obviously thinks there are times when these traits are rational, he's not completely insane. He's just masking his reasoning. What does 'irrational' mean besides 'not beneficial to me'

>>17572643
See
>>17572493

>>17572691
That's basically what I'm saying, and I'm the one who can't read? lol

>>17572733
I'm not the one you were arguing with, that guy's a dumbass, you're right.

>>17572112
Why would I give a shit about Central American jungleniggers if I don't give a shit about ball tossers here in my city?

>>17572278
The only intelligent post here. Funny how all those lofty thinkers telling you to "dismantle the system", "be fearless" and "question everything" suddenly turn on their heels and screech "No not like that!1!" when you apply the same techniques to them.

>>17572112
LMAAOOOOO the guy cant even relate to people playing football at the same school as him and you really believe he can relate to third worlders. Chomsky is an elite through and through, he cares about poor people to the extent that he can guarantee their dependence and in turn loyalty to the system.

>>17572594
again, missed the point. Not going to bother explaining to you, just read the OP again.
>>17572643
ok, I'll bite. It makes sense to care about others when you are in true community with them. When they care about you and you care about them. In these cases, your attachment to the community is directly tied to your attachment to the people in the community. In contrast, groups like sports teams, nationalities, etc. rely on hijacking that human instinct to care about those close to us by convincing us there is a closeness that does not actually exist. A tribe 100k years ago legitimately had things in common. They lived together their entire lives. They were a true community. But a sports team is not. Two people supporting the same sports team have about as much in common as two people who like the same colors, but the former has convinced itself it is a community, whereas the latter recognizes the connection as entirely superficial. Your connection to a sporting team you support is entirely one-directional and is inherently based on superficial characteristics -- how could it not be? the players change every year and even switch to opposing teams, and even if they didn't, they don't care about you at all. Things like sports teams and nationalities capitalize off the human desire to be part of a community, but they don't actually provide any of the positives that communities provide. It's all just an illusion.

Not that Vonnegut is a great philosopher or anything, but he coined the term "granfalloon" in Cat's Cradle (or at least used it there, can't remember if earlier novels use it) to describe the idea. I think the novel occasionally demonstrates well how silly such attachments are.

>>17571886
>>17571984
When did he say that people should stop watching sports? Both aspect can be correct--it can be a subtle form of tribal unity/jingoism, and also pleasant to enjoy.

>>17572800
He can relate to the people playing football -- the point is that there's no difference between the ones on "his" team vs the "other" team

>>17572011
>go to literature board to discuss specific book
>no one reply
>go to literature board to discuss topic within literature such as philosophy
>people actually discuss
>enter fag
>fag cries “NOT LITERATURE REEEEE”
Shut up faggot

>>17572858
Okay so how does Chomsky get from the legitimate group associations of someones immediate family and community to caring about Guatemalans? These things seem to be in contradiction.

Also everybody is simultaneously part of dozens of communities, it makes no sense to compare ones actual family to their sports community as if we have to pick between one or the other. Why not both?

>>17572863
The idea that Chomsky is too noble and above it all to recognize friend and foe is laughable.

>>17572858
sports are one of the best ways to build lasting friendships, communities and social bonds that go beyond sports. its just another distinctly human activity to watch sports and to build all kinds of activities (many beneficial) around it. chomsky is being an autistic idiot here.

>>17571930
Play sports when they felt like it, not because of social programming

>>17571886
>irrational attitudes of [...] group cohesion behind leadership elements
Well I agreed with OP's pic upon a cursory reading, but then...

How are those attitudes at all irrational?

Because from where I'm standing, group cohesion and hierarchical social structures with leadership elements are wholly necessary emergent societal behaviours arising from the Darwinian pressures of a world of scarcity and competition; they're extremely rational attitudes to have for a society, and for members of that society, in a world like this, and thus reinforcing and training these behaviours is likewise rational.
A direct refutation of his argument is to be found in the fact that it's self-evident that the cohesive group with a strong chain-of-command utterly and without fail DECIMATES AND RAPES the unorganised, loose-knit tribe, regardless of how democratic and free and open they might be.
Jingoism can be a necessary tool in social cohesion; just look at how it was employed during the war.

Get fucked with your naive fucking hippie boomer bullshit, Noam.
How the fuck people don't see this man as part of a wider academic destabilising fifth column, clearly controlled by a foreign power, is beyond me; his arguments are unbelievably sophistic, and you need to do some serious self-reflection if you still agree with them after dwelling on them for only a few minutes.

>>17572067

Can you tell me what a glowie is? No irony, I'm just not familiar with this slang (eng not first lang)

>>17571886
Chomsky is a borign old washed up Jewish retard that wasted the time of goys in the usual Jewish pilpul divide and conquer tactic.

Team sports are a way to channel tribalist instincts into something that doesn't threaten the political order

>>17571886
Chomsky is an actual fucking idiot.

>>17571932
Pure *sniff* ideology, the enjoyment here from anon *sniff* comes *sniff* from his knowledge that there is a *sniff* control mechanism behind the sorts yet he enjoys anyways

>>17571886
>sport is fascism
So this is the fabled power of Chomsky?

>>17572112
>Sports have existed through all time. Roman Gladiators

You're not actually mentioning roman gladiators as it was a factual counterpoint to "it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority", right?

>>17572231
>Commies hate fun because it keeps people away from muh revolution.

Imagine thinking revolution is not fun

>>17573588
>You're not actually mentioning roman gladiators as it was a factual counterpoint to "it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority", right?

No, I'm not. Well observed.

>the high school football game is literally fascism
Leftists are all schizo retards

>>17571951
reddit

>>17571975
>does nothing positive whatsoever.
watching sports is fun.

>>17573452
>scheduling is brainwashing

>>17571886
He's not wrong.

>>17573728

>Generalizing X is all Y is sane behavior

>>17571886
the point to understand Chomsky is imagining him as the "virgin" in a virgin Vs chad meme, where the Chad is the glownigger keeping his leash.

Didnt he think that maybe the whole High school is just a brainwashing factory?

Chomsky is a libtard

This is peak autism. It’s like telling someone the show fixer upper is probably scripted. Who fucking cares. You’re missing the point. What are you going to tell me next? That get a ball into the end zone is what arbitrary?!!!??

>>17573850

LMAO

>>17573785
More like
>generalizing all x as x
Lefitst is just another form of insanity. Take your meds

>>17574067
>Take your meds

>Pathologizing any human behaviour and developing a chemical for it is a sane and totally not prone to (((big pharma))) attitude

>>17573538
It means CIA agent on /pol/, because the late Terry A. Davis [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_A._Davis] infamously wrote "CIA [NWORDS] glow in the dark; if you see one in the street, run them over."

>>17571886
People give you a long leash when they think you're intelligent.

>>17574089
See you're finding a conspiracy in a simple statement. Classic schizophrenic. I bet you think you're a victim of gangstalking too

>>17574190
>>17574190
>See you're finding a conspiracy in a simple statement

>Literally implied I'm mentally ill because I don't share his opinion

>"See? Classic schizofrenic"

>>17574067
>>17574190
Unbased and lithiumpilled. When the machine elves steal your pineal gland you'll only have yourself to blame.

>>17574243
Take your medication

>>17574471

>Palilalia

>>17574548
Thats an extremely funny word that condition

>>17572137
I think it doesnt count as for the single sports there is no common identity to stick to the player , unless if he was playing internationally. anyways it doesnt even count for football or any other team game if you just watch it because you like to watch people playing it . What he meant is actually thinking that you've got anything of benefit if that or this team wins by aligning yourself to one side

>>175722786
Totally missed the point. Why would chomsky care himself about you passing his class ? It is your own choice to sign up for it and you're the one getting direct benefit/harm from the course . On the other hand your football team has no impact whatsoever on your life yet some people build their whole identity based upon that notion of belonging to it.

>>17573292
you clearly missed the point. reread the OP a few times

>>17573358
if you're playing the sports. not if you're watching as a fanboy. That's who he's talking about

>>17571940
Sour grapes

>>17573262
>caring about Guatemalans?

If your country is bombing innocent people then it's just a good thing to stop that, because actual people are being fucked over by that. The idea that "why should *I* care about them, they're Guatemalans" is exactly the kind of attitude this is aiming to counter.

Jews are bad at sports. That's it, that's the only reason he doesn't like them.

>>17571886
Politically he was literally always a high school student.