/lit/ - Literature

>sometimes they are better.
One medium does not tell a story better than another. One story is not better than another.

>>1756366
Do you really think this?

>>1756366

Well, Video Games and Anime do have the imagery and the sound and the story itself. It has more facets.

Otherwise, I'm glad at least someone on this pretentious-seeming shit-hole isn't a complete asshat.

>>1756374
Okay scout here is two stories for you

A man got up one morning and went mining, he found a gold nugget. Coming home he got shot. He killed the person who shot him and went to hospital, and lived to a ripe old age.

One day a man got into a space shuttle, he flew into space. In space he blew up a lot of aliens. Eventually he flew back to earth and lived happily ever after.

Can you tell me how we might say one story is better or worse than another? Suppose I spoke one, and conveyed the other in sign language; how would that make one worse or better than the other?

yeah this was better than a lot of literature ive read

Lazy troll, we all agree with you, thats why 'anime', 'manga', videogames, and film have their respective boards.

>>1756390
What makes you choose one book over another if you actually believe all are the same? If you look at your own life as a story (which it is) then how do you, deep and edgy, choose one thing over another? I know that, on some level, nothing is "better" than another, but what makes you differentiate them at all?

>>1756397

Ho, NGE. Not sure if trolling.

I guess it's pretty good. And it does remind me a lot of reading a novel. Most novels I've read, it's really hard to get going and keep going with in one sitting. Same with NGE, me being halfway through it after like three months of trying off and on.

I suppose it's pretty good though.

You obviously have awful taste in anime so you would have no way of knowing this

>>1756390
That's not even the point he was making you retarded shithog.

Video games, movies, chinese cartoons have imagery, sound and sometimes words, whereas books have words, and sometimes a picture or two, depending on the type.

IF you took your first story, and put it in all of those mediums, one would tell it better due to visuals, audio, words, and whatever.

Fucking hipster "Books are better just because." fags.

>>1756381
>imagery and the sound
Oh no I've just been struck deaf and blind, imagery and sound are pretty fucking useless to me now

>>1756397
i would watch this. but for some reason i can only seed, not leech as of yesterday.

>>1756390

I see what you're saying, but I disagree to a certain extent. Look at horror for instance. Right now I'd say that the video game market is covering this genre much more effectively than film due to its intrinsicly immersive nature. This amplifies any shocks or scares or tension that might occur in the story. A horror film and a horror game could have the exact same story, but the video game would be more entertaining and immersive than the film.

>Anime/Manga
Nope
>Video Games
Sometimes, yeah.
>Films
I agree

>>1756405

Well played. Holy shit you guys are reasonable.

>>1756406

Wouldn't that be opinions and interests and stuff?

>>1756419
>Video Games
>Sometimes, yeah.
Haha you are 12 years old

>>1756419

Anime is films, dumbass.

>>1756419

>>Anime/Manga
>Nope

>mfw

okay, why no?

generally speaking, which one of these mediums is more likely to explore multiple themes in depth, and not just scratch the surface of a theme?

>anime/manga
>video games
>films
>books

>>1756420
Opinions and interests are chosen, what makes you choose them?

The ultimate form of art is Opera

>>1756406
>What makes you choose one book over another if you actually believe all are the same
I don't believe they're all the same.

>If you look at your own life as a story (which it is) then how do you, deep and edgy, choose one thing over another? I know that, on some level, nothing is "better" than another, but what makes you differentiate them at all?
A story will appeal to me or not based on how I relate to it, but that doesn't make the story better than any other or worse, it just makes me more inclined to read it or not. Someone else mightn't like the story at all.

>>1756412
>one would tell it better due to visuals, audio, words
and that would depend on whether one values visuals audio or the written word, which is a matter of individual preference.

>>1756418
You see, what's happening here is not that you're saying a story is better because of a medium. What's happening here is that you're saying you like some formal techniques or some medium better than another. The story remains the same.

>>1756435

I am of the belief that "none of the above" is the correct answer.

Until we bring in previous examples. Not only does plain literature have a much longer history than anime, film, and vidya, but the quality is usually better.

But just by the values of the medium itself, none of the above.

>Manga
No. You seriously believe this? That a comic book can tell a story better than a novel. You must have only ever read garbage.
>Anime
It's quite possible, but I don't think it has ever been done.
>Video Games
Hardly. A great game's story telling will only make a low-mid tier book.
>Film
It's true, but mostly out of Hollywood (at least in this decade).

>>1756444
Yeah, I guess you're right in saying that no story is "better" than another, because "better" is a loaded word.

>>1756445
well now you're just talking out of your ass.

If you're not going to take this seriously then I'm out of here.

>>1756447

Let me make a case or four.

>manga vs. novel
Onani Master Kurosawa vs. Twilight.
A guy who masturbates on people's stuff, then mans up and admits to it, growing into an adult. Also he begins to accept other people as friends and even finds a girlfriend.

>anime vs. novel
I do believe Gurren Lagann and Toradora are both great anime; one having the general message of "believing in yourself will get you places" and another just being a good love story.
I suppose I don't have anything to compare it to, however.

>video games
Tales of Symphonia. Full of plot. It's quite a conversation heavy plot though, so I imagine in novel form it would have a lot of talking and little narration still. But the themes are fantastic; talking about racism, for the most part. There's a little bit of 'growing up' and 'revenge' in there, too. Nothing unexplored before, just this game did it well.

>Film
I don't even watch much movies but there's a Bollywood film called My Name is Khan, which was really good.

>>1756390
MFW I realize D&E is a perspectivist
MFW I now have more respect for D&E
>>1756406
Just because he doesn't believe in objective truth does not mean he's above having opinions.


And when I said here: >>1756447 about video games is not necessarily true. It's just all that's been shown thus far.

in some cases, yeah.

such cases.

>>1756466
see
>>1756409

>>1756455

Do you really disagree?

I mean, saying literature is better than any other medium because of previous examples, is like saying all black people must be theiving, raping niggers because that's all that you ever hear about.
That said, I have met one black guy, and he was a gay jewish furry and he stole a glove from me and borrowed money from a friend which he never returned.

>>1756481

here we have an anon who would simply state my taste is shit therefore my opinion is invalid.

That can go two ways, you do realize?

>>1756466
You've got a very juvenile way of looking at art.

And when it comes to anime vs. the novel: you'd belong on Fox News or some shit if you're going to take your favorite anime and compare it to what most people consider the trashiest novels out there. Grow up kidoo.

>>1756447
>It's quite possible, but I don't think it has ever been done.
Have you ever seen anything directed by Isao Takahata? Check out Grave of the Fireflies and Only Yesterday. Also look into Masaaki Yuasa, particularly Mind Game.

I'm disappointed at the dumbshits in here. In defence of OP, here are my suggestions:

>Anime
Shirow Masamune, Makoto Shinkai
>Manga
Naoki Urusawa, Yoshihiro Tatsumi
>Videogames
Videogames are the odd one out because we have yet to develop auteurs in the field. Planescape Torment is fantastic though.
>Films
F. W. Murnau, Fritz Lang, Jim Jarmusch

Literature graduate by the way

>>1756494

Point Taken. Even I know Twilight is shit, but it does prove that even in novel-land there is shit which will be beaten by other mediums.

I've read some other stuff, mostly fantasy. Most of Lord of the Rings. Harry Potter of course when I was younger. Sword of Shannara(sp?). What's out so far of the Inheritance Cycle. And at least one incarnation of King Arthur stuff.

Also I've read Catcher in the Rye, and while I'd say it's my favourite novel, last I checked you guys fucking hated that book.

Point is, of all the books I HAVE read, Gurren Lagann and Toradora are better. Opinions would make a difference in the rating of things too. So even if I read whatever /lit/'s favourite book is, would I really consider it better than my favourite anime, manga, and games?

>>1756356
Only one I disagree with is vidya gamz, and I regularly play games.

The problem is they are interactive, as soon as you give the player freedom you lose credibility as an effective storytelling medium. It only work if the games just consecutive interactive cutscenes... Which means its no loonger rly. Game.


It cant be both.

>>1756513

I love Catcher in the Rye, it's great fun, and wonderfully double edged. Most people hate it because its forced on them at school where it may have hit too close to the bone.

Books are the very best for direct conveyance of ideas. It is the closest we can get to having someone know our thoughts.

Comics (I don't know why you just said "manga" that's just the Japanese word for comic) take that conveyance of ideas and add visuals. While this has the nicety that the art can be appreciated as just that, visual art, it also allows for different advantages to storytelling. There can be a lot going on in the background of a scene without having to describe them word for word among other advantages. However, you lose point of view and several other features that are unique to novels. It's much harder to show the internal lives of the characters.

Film takes the idea of merging visuals with ideas and puts them in motion. This allows many new opportunities for storytelling as you can watch things and characters move and evolve, and of course the fact that you're watching a real person go through these things in front of you allows you to be more emotionally drawn in (if they act believably). Animation is a subset of films where the advantage is you can get a bit closer to the pure flow of ideas, you are no longer limited by what you can put in front of a camera, you can design the look and feel of your story and world from the ground up. However, you are no longer showing real people and places and that can lose emotional relatability.

>>1756525
Video games take what's good about animation and add one pivotal feature, an increase in immersion. You no longer are a static observer of the world and characters you are among them and act with them. This can create much deeper impressions and has the ability to create much more powerful moods. For example, when playing Silent Hill 2 you aren't just watching characters move through this horrifying place, you are there trying to find your way out. Of course as always there's a trade off, you can no longer directly tell your story. The character doing unexpected things can break the feel of the story you want to tell and you have to create some way to keep them playing or else they won't see it the whole way through. This is usually done through challenges, but if you make the challenges too hard much of your audience may never get to the end of your story.

In the end, each medium has it's own advantages and disadvantages. The written word is the closest you can get to giving someone your thoughts, each medium adds layers between you and the audience but those layers come with distinct advantages.

>>1756525
>Books are the very best for direct conveyance of ideas
hope no-one's illiterate

>>1756517

Again, I think its just that videogames at present take too many people to make, never really letting an artistic voice develop. We've come close a lot, and the potential is there. I think as technology develops, and making videogames becomes more intuitive for smaller teams, it will develop further into realms of insight.

>>1756506
>Makoto Shinkai
sentimental bullshit
>Naoki Urusawa
fun but nothing deep

>>1756517

What are some of the best games you've played though?

I mean, one where choices actually seem to make a difference is Dragon Age: Origins. Whole game is kind of meh, and I don't think the story is fantastic at all.

Whereas Tales of Symphonia is a game where, yes, you have some choices, and some sidequests to do. There's only one major choice to make in the game, however, and it makes almost no difference in the end. Well, there's also picking the major companion for Lloyd, but that also makes a very, very small difference in the story.

I think if they were to make a novel of Tales of Symphonia, it would do perfectly well.

>>1756536
I think we're already at the point where small groups of people are making really influential artistic games. Look at Limbo. Also a large team doesn't mean something is without artistic value. Many great films have huge teams.

>>1756525

Comics are perfectly valid, you need to conprehend the whole scope of what you're dealing with. Don't judge it as words with pictures, appreciate the form as a whole. Understand what is happening.

Also, and heres the big one, look for comics doing things with story that no other medium really can. A great recent example woud be Driven by Lemons, utterly perfect use of the form.

>>1756540
Someone has only played Xbox. Go play Baldur's Gate 2 or Deus Ex.

>>1756550
You misunderstand the point of my post. I was trying to say that every medium is valid, all just have their advantages and disadvantages.

>>1756545

Yeah but films have a much more direct move between vision and product. Videogames are still a case of too many involved parties. Just look at the way publishers dick all over their developers. Its disappointing.

>>1756538

Sentimentality is perfectly fine, and he deals with things in wonderfully unique circumstances. Voices of a Distant Star was the first Japanese animated film that made me respect the industry.

>>1756554

Ah my bad, I must have got caught up in the moment of all these other posts.

>>1756555
If you think video games are the only medium where the the bureaucrats funding the thing dick over the storytellers, especially when your comparing it to film, then you...should look up stuff and find out your wrong.

>>1756525
>>1756534

The point of comics vs. manga is good. I should've just said "Graphic Novels" I guess.

Otherwise, I guess that makes sense. One's opinions would likely make them gravitate to one way of telling a story or another, and in my case I suppose it's clear I prefer video games and anime for that. Just me, though.

>>1756524

Well, I read it in school too, so I suppose those other guys who like it are just, well, a lot like Holden. I kinda felt some kinship with his train of thought and the like too, and that's probably why it's my favourite novel.

>>1756418
I am of the opinion that immersion is an ineffective technique for anything. Empathy for characters yes, but not immersion.

If I am playing a character in a game I always, whether consciously or not, that Im playing a game... This is amplified by my assertion of control over events... Its whychoose your own adventure stories are redundant past childhood. There is always an awareNess of the fictional.

Books or films however are easier to suspend disbelief and forget their fictional nature. You to a certain extent are able to see them as accounts of real events, which you never will with games.

all mediums have the potential to provide a unique experience, and therefore unique storytelling.

>>1756560

Yes I know, but its a lot less prevalent. I've worked on movie sets, and visited development studios. Very different environments. Don't assume all cinema is Hollywood.

>>1756551

>someone has only played Xbox
>while I'm mentioning Tales of Symphonia, a Gamecube game

For the record, i played Origins on PS3.
I've never owned a Xbox, and the only time I've played one was a bit of fable for about half an hour, and a bunch of Halo at friend's houses.

>>1756550
I myself am quite biased against comics. I just feel most of them are superficial superheroes with nonsensical, stagnating storylines. The only good comics I've read are by Alan Moore. Perhaps you could recommend more of similar quality.

>>1756578

You should play more PC games though

>>1756567

I see, I see. Yeah...

If you are conciously making decisions(a good idea if you don't want to die in most games), then it would detract from following the story sometimes, down to the point where you're simplying trying to get the high score or whatever. I see that could be a problem with immersion.

I suppose it's true for even me. I mean, I know the story of Tales of Symphonia well, and at this point is almost as much me going through the game just to get levels and play around in the battle system, as it is to experience the story again. The Tales have become devalued to some degree.

report this everyone

>>1756466
What very biased comparisons.
I cannot entirely rule out some of your examples (as I have not seen most of them), but to me Gurrenn Laggan and Toradora were godawful.

>>1756590

I've had a bad experience with PC games so far. And my PC isn't exactly up to date, so I doubt I could run much.

Barely ran KotOR, which wasn't that great anyway. I do enjoy a rare game of Empire at War though, but that's just build an army and wipe out the other guy anyway.

Perhaps one day I'll get Amnesia or something?

>>1756598
Ever play Yume Nikki?
It tells a story, in a poetic, even postmodern, way.

>>1756540
The problem is very little storytelling is done during play, but in cutscenes. Films with pzzles between scenes.

This is why when I want a story I read or watch a film and I play games wen I want some grisly mindless fun.

>>1756605

Much of anything's value comes from how much you like it, doesn't it?

Well, tell me why you think Toradora and Gurren Lagann are bad. I am interested to see if I could argue your points and change your mind, though such a thing is doubtful.

>>1756611

>postmodern
What is with this word.

But no, I haven't. What system is it even for?

>>1756613

There must be a way to make gameplay and storytelling perfectly integrated though, right?

Worst case scenario, QTEs. Tales games have a habit of having discussion between characters during a boss fight, though.

>>1756611
It doesn't really have a definite story and apparently it isn't even close to being complete

>>1756598
Good job because its hard to make sense with this phones crappy keypad and in a state of inebriation in an attempt to cope with the impending social torture of another day amongst my peers.

>>1756624
Yume Nikki is a pc game made with RPG maker

>>1756635

>PC Game
Oh, well then I probably won-
>made with RPG Maker
Mite b cool.

>>1756624
Its free to download on pc.

>>1756628
Though everything is more or less speculative (that is why I described YN as poetic/postmodern). I think it provides enough information for a story and can be interpreted as having several chapters and an ending.

>>1756624
Perhaps there is, but I've not seen it and nor can I really see a hypothetical possibility.

I just think the key feature of a game, interactivity, is incongruous with the same levels of emotional involvement a film or book can create. The infinite chances or reloads doesnt help either, though there are ways round this they feel more like increases in difficulty than true finality; which. Would never work.

>>1756668

More good points.

To sum the thread up, through a combination of just some strong opinions, and hypothetical ideas, graphic novels, animations, video games, and I suppose even music can outperform a novel in way of telling a story, but novels have the best track record for telling stories.

>>1756701
I've yet to see them outperform. Though they can, in their respective fields, be of equal,merit.

>>1756668
>interactivity, is incongruous with the same levels of emotional involvement

Read that again. Do you think there is no potential for video games to create an emotional experience with interactivity that is unique from books?

>>1756356

I will presume that we are discussing stories of literary or artistic merit, as there's no point to arguing whether one medium is better than another when it comes to commercial fiction as the entire point of commercial fiction is ultimately to entertain, and entertainment is a very subjective response that very hard to have any sort of meaningful debate about.

But for literary or artistic purposes I agree almost completely with this sentiment (one exception, discussed later), insofar as the "sometimes" clarification refers specifically to the nature of some stories being better suited to certain mediums than others. The many visual metaphors in Citizen Kane would not function in a novel, and a faithful adaptation of Heart of Darkness would never work as a film as it relies too heavily on the First Person Perspective to convey its many complexities.

Now, I would clarify my above statement by also saying that very rarely, if ever, are Cartoons or Comics actually UTILIZED to such potential. Live action film has seen examples that attempt to utilize the medium to produce legitimately profound works, and thus one may perhaps argue that it is a more "mature" medium and etc., etc.

tbc.

>>1756770
Nonetheless I wish to address my one exception to this agreement, and that is video-games. They are a VERY distinct medium from all the others afore listed in a way that is indeed fundamental to the very concept; they are interactive.

This is virtually unheard of with any of the other mediums. Whereas the experience one has watching a film or reading a book is much the same experience that ANYONE will have watching that film or reading that book, the experience one has playing a video-game is heavily dependent on himself. If he is "good" at the game he may enjoy it where others "bad" at the game would not, and if he is too skilled than he may find there is an utter lack of any challenge where other, less skilled individuals would be quite tried by the game.

It's as if the vocabulary of a novel varied depending on the reader, or the scene frames per second of a film was dependent upon its audience, or the comparative size of panels in a comic book fluctuated between readers.

Ultimately while the experience one has reading a book or comic book or watching a movie or cartoon is entirely the design of its creator, the experience one has playing a video-game is dependent both upon the original author and the one playing the game, and that renders it quite difficult to keep up as a medium for telling truly meaningful stories.

>>1756741
I think that yes.

Interactivity creates an underlying knowledge of the games unreality. Which in turn means we never reach the same level of emotional connection in a game. We get brief moments perhaps but are quickly "snapped out of it" when our thumbs begin twitching.

As aforementioned, I have yet to experience anything that would change my mind on this.

>>1756770
>>1756777

But, when it comes to video games, as others have previously mentioned, the story-telling isn't always well combined with the playing of the game itself.

That is to say, that the artistic merit of a story in a game, in an ideal world, should not be dependent on the skill or choices of the player(especially in a game where choice is minimal or it has no real effect on the story).

That said, you're pretty much right otherwise, I think.

>>1756777
Kind of similar to my point on games though far more aarticulate, thank you.

>>1756624
>There must be a way to make gameplay and storytelling perfectly integrated though, right?

Valve tries to accomplish this in their games (most of the single-player games never take away your control of the main character) but as a work around they just end up locking you in a room whenever something plot-significant is discussed, which easily breaks the immersion as soon as you try to exert control and leave the room prematurely.

>>1756785

And judging by your stance on the video game thing, you probably never will, already in a state of mind where your 'suspense of disbelief' is, well, suspended.

It can't be helped, I guess.

>>1756807
Would a story in a game devoid of player input not be the same as a film/animation and hence not be an example of a game with merit as a storytelling device though?

>>1756810

Well, if you're trying to leave the room prematurely anyway, either you've already experienced the plot to a point where you feel no need to again, or you're not interested to begin with, and the entirety of the story would be lost on you regardless, right?

>>1756814
This may well be the case, though it is a dangerous position to take that it is simply a matter of my pre-existing expectations, as they are always apt to change.

>>1756821

I suppose this is true. The only possible choice at that point would be moving forward in the plot, or not. Which would be, do I pause, or play, the movie?

Well, still, I myself found Tales of Symphonia to be both a great game play-wise, as well as plot wise. Again, opinions, and unless you guys try it yourself or already appreciate it, it doesn't matter what I say.

>>1756832
most game developers probably hold the same impressions as yours, or at least understand that they won't profit from the majority by taking a new direction.

some day, storytelling and thematic significance will be primary and integrated with the interactivity of the gameplay. Metal Gear Solid comes to mind, where a recent article explained how they will penalize killing an enemy over disabling them non-lethally. Not quite sure on the details, but the idea is there.

>>1756870
My point as to an underlying knowledge of unreality while playing a game still stands, and I really can see no way round it.... Aside from, of course, the possibility that this is entirely based upon my pre-existing disbelief.

>>1756890
it is not, but your approach and personal experience to video games probably hasn't felt immersion at the same level.

>>1756902
Perhaps though immersion IS the problem; opposed to mere observership.

When immersed our knowledge of reality directly conflicts, yet when observing it is less.so

Each medium can tell the same story but they are completely different forms of presentation with their pros and cons. But because you have to adapt the story to the medium the nature of the story itself changes, this is why no medium is a better storytelling method. Stories must be changed in order to best suit the medium they are presented in.

>>1756952
really? I find emotional immersion to be beneficial to intellectual understanding rather than in conflict.

>>1756701
>novels have the best track record for telling stories.

For preserving a story, yes.

Why has nobody mentioned the spoken word?

There are some people out there who are completely amazing at telling stories, they can tell stories about completely mundane shit but you'd be on the edge of your seat and completely entertained and immersed.

>>1756972
Emotional is more entertaining yes, but I find to get any intellectual understanding I have to take step back. But im not saging that anyway, im going one step further and saying that for proper emotional involvement we require the same, atleast I do... Which is lucky

>>1756982

Why did you only wait until now?

I've only mentioned music in passing, myself.

>wake up
>check /lit/
>see this thread
>pretty sure greentext is superior platform

any form of entertainment medium has the potential to tell a story well. film usually does it more than anime & manga, and vidya has the least amount of good stories.

literature has a larger amount of good stories because it's been around a hell of a lot longer than everything else. whether one is better than the other is subjective.

>>1756993
When reading a novel, if I can connect with the characters better by feeling their emotions in myself, I find understanding their conflicts much easier. The same can be said for characters in a video game.

>>1757009
..and then a giant blob kills you.

As long as game stories are segmented by gameplay they will never work, but then they are no longer games

>>1756366
>>1756405
>>1756445
>>1756506
>>1756568
>>1756956

/thread

Heavy Rain

Not into vidya but I heard about that, seems interesting anyone played it?

>>1757054
Then enjoy life never speaking to anyone.

>>1756432
>>1756434
Anime is motion picture, not film in the traditional sense. Cartoons. Much of the time they are shit cartoons that rehash the same themes, characters, storylines, and cliches. It's very hard to find a decent anime that has more artistic merit than your typical action flick. Miyazaki MIGHT be an exception. So perhaps it's not an outright "nope," but definitely a "rarely."

>>1757056

>Press X to Jason

I haven't actually played it. Not entirely interested. It seems like it's just like, walk around, do QTE movements and button presses. Fuck up you die, affecting an ending.

>>1757096

Give me an example of one of the best novels, at least in your opinion, and what themes and artistic values it carries. Short as possible, at least.