/lit/ - Literature

>>17493194
Because evidently the world makes no fucking sense. All the rational enlightenment ideologies, marxism included, are completely worthless for understanding the world and completely worthless for understanding themselves. Fuck it dude

>>17493194
Same thing happened to Jesus and Muhammad. Leftism is a religion like any other, so it makes sense that we'd see people claim religious figures like Marx were on their side.

oversocialized

shit thread

Marxism is about freeing man from oppression, and is a lens that analyzes relations between production forces, systems, structures, and oppressive dynamics. Racial and LGBT discrimination are also forms of oppression and some of Marx's ideas may be integrated into our struggle

because americans

>>17493276
Missing the mark, as usual. Read Marx.

>>17493276
Wouldn't niggers have to experience endogenous industrialization to move towards the Marxist ideal? The enlightened Russian, for example, couldn't not escape his nature irrespective of his beliefs---niethet will you be able to escape yours; thus, you are, and will stay, a free slave that remains a slave nonetheless

So much of Marx is rooted in Hegel, or rather taking Hegel and turning his system onto its head. Hegel provides building blocks that Marx uses to build a materialist analysis of capitalist society. Everything in Marx is dialectical and applicable to progressive change. It is a philosophical system and a lens to critique society at large, which in Marx's view society's conditions manifest from the economic material conditions. Everything in society can thus be integrated with Marx, as the economic conditions are the base while ideology and so on are the superstructure. Marxism is thus not about a dogmatic solution or even a pure synthesis between ideas and actions, but one that discusses, examines, probes, and critiques. It seeks to point out the contradictions and systematically peel apart the layers of the capitalist production system and past economic ideas. He aims to bring the force of theory and praxis into conflict with each other, and therefore makes them out to be opposite or in opposition to each other.

>>17493312
I fucked this up

So much of Marx is rooted in Hegel, or rather taking Hegel and turning his system onto its head. Hegel provides building blocks that Marx uses to build a materialist analysis of capitalist society. Everything in Marx is dialectical and applicable to progressive change. It is a philosophical system and a lens to critique society at large, which in Marx's view society's conditions manifest from the economic material conditions. Everything in society can thus be integrated with Marx, as the economic conditions are the base while ideology and so on are the superstructure. Marxism is thus not about a dogmatic solution or even a pure synthesis between ideas and actions, but one that discusses, examines, probes, and critiques. It seeks to point out the contradictions and systematically peel apart the layers of the capitalist production system and past economic ideas. Theory and praxis create conflict, they point out the contradictions and these contradictions drive them forward, the opposites synthesize. Everything is contradiction, the antithesis and opposites, it is all dialectical and convoluted and Hegelian.

good thread

>>17493276
>Marxism is about freeing man from oppression,
Damn you’re dumb bro

>>17493276
This is an idealist utopian assumption

Because those people are shallow thinkers, narcissistic, and self-loathing who appropriate leftism as a label merely to convince themselves that they're a good person by pretend fighting "oppression", only as long as it doesn't challenge their comfort.

because post cybernetics pavlov marx data trash

>>17493327
>>17493308
>>17493352
>>17493347
Class reductionism has no place in the modern day. We need to acknowledge the struggle of racial and LGBTQ minorities. We have a unique situation. I see Marx as being about man freeing yourself. Class is one of many factors tied together into an intersectional struggle. This is more practical imo and it is more inclusive of a diverse range of people's struggles

>>17493276
Without oppression, there's no culture, art descends into kitsch, and freedom actually becomes a completely trivial concept, nothing more than "free from oppression," as if that actually matters.

>>17493389
most art has been created by people who weren't oppressed so that's bullshit.

>>17493399
All art has been made in civilization which has always contained oppressive elements.

>>17493389
Slowdive's 'Alison' contradicts this

>>17493405
by people that never experienced shit of those oppressive elements.

>>17493372
>Class reductionism has no place in the modern day.
You’re a mouth breathing retard whose never read Marx. You’re also more than likely a troll simply pretending to be retarded, which is a retarded thing to do. You’re retarded

>>17493423
Doesn't matter. The artist class depends on an oppressed class to operate. It also often derives its material from its interaction with that class.

>>17493276
>lens
Every time someone uses this word I know they're shitty theorists. Telling on yourself, revealing neurotic obsession with the other's perception of the subject, "what do they think of me!" a politics of images and simulation.
We live in a society.
This is a much more astute observation than the memes reveal. The liberal's obsession with communities reveals a misunderstanding of the nature of our current arrangement- we don't live in a community, there are no communities. If we had communities, then the burgerking register girl would have to *like* me, to feel *kinship* with me, to ring up my tendies. In fact, we live in a society- mediated by mutually agreed-upon object relations and symbolically dense language, which allows the tendie girl to genuinely despise me and yet I get my tendies and she gets her paycheck. Socialism MUST be a society, and not a community, if it's ever to actually-exist.
it's in this way that the liberals cockblock any leftist project. Think of the unspoken question whenever a "community leader," or an "advocate" begins to make their voice heard- do you really speak for this group? Is the opinion of this group relevant to our public arrangement?

>>17493435
damn you just use class to mean literally anything huh

>>17493435
>the artist class
you're such a retard lmao

>>17493456
We're talking about a dialectical category, so yes, it can mean anything. Dialectics is formalized bullshitting. You haven't figured this out yet?

Of course you haven't, you're an impractical Marxist who thinks art can flourish without a large group of people doing the heavy lifting while artists get to enjoy the fruits of their labor and spend time on their art.

>>17493520
So you admit you're bullshitting.

>>17493526
Yes, Sherlock. And so are you if you're talking about dialectical categories.

>>17493536
Ah yes a school of thought with thousands of pages worth of text elaborating on all these ideas and concepts thoroughly by Marx himself is reducible to "just bullshitting". No.

>>17493276
Marxism doesn't free man from oppression; it just oppresses the mind with another grand-narrative of utopia that re-invents man's struggle against endaemonia for the valorization of a speculative higher state of humanity that fails to exist. Man must make himself free since it impossible to eliminate the limits of humanity. Free yourself as far you can, and you have done your part.

>>17493543
Oppression is needed for a culture to thrive. Marx was a moralizing pseud who didn't understand this, so why are you surprised that his work was a bunch of bullshit?

>>17493543
Marxism is just a meme religion

>>17493276
Marxism is idiotic
there can be no difference between a good Marxist and a bad one either
no matter what angle you look at Karl Marx is wrong about everything

>the class war as described by Karl Marx
>there are two classes, one who exploits and the other who is exploited
>one class is eventually replaced by the other
>the major theme is being and centralization
>theory can't change which makes it unscientific
>failed when applied to reality because it doesn't concern itself with becoming

>the actual class war as it unfolds through Anarchism
>there are X classes nearing towards infinity
>the major theme is becoming and decentralization
>various groups and individuals look out for their own self interest

there can be no cooperation without competition
there can be no creation without destruction

>>17493575
Religion is based on things that do not exist and are only assumed, Marxism is based on material reality that exists and the tangible conditions

>>17493584
>material reality that exists
lol

>>17493575
thats retarded simplistic analysis

>>17493584
>Marxism is based on material reality that exists and the tangible conditions
I don't think that's true when Marx's invent so many conspiracy theories as to way their revolutions devolve into nothing but mass murder and tyranny

>>17493838
come on anon, you know conspiracies happen. Epstein, etc. Is it so unreasonable to imagine that some leftist plans might be foiled by interested corporate parties with the help of some three letter agencies?
The same shit happens to rightists.

>>17493584
>Marxism is based on material reality that exists and the tangible conditions
Marxism is a secular religion based on the pity, and resentfulness of the worker. It creates own reality by inventing a field of sociology that worships work & workers as sacred, holy values - making its "solemn oppression" propaganda for socialist rat-catchers that seek the worst society has to offer as cannon fodder for the next ritualistic blood sacrifice, revolution to sate the egoism of pauperish mobs and parties

>>17493276
>Marxism is about freeing man from oppression
No it isn't lmao, it's meant to be a materialist study of history. The aim was to find where history would end and he concluded it would be communism.
He wasn't an anti-capitalist, he said capitalism was a step in human development.
>Racial and LGBT discrimination
Marx strongly condemned identity politics for the mind poisoning obfuscation it was:
>And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.
>This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power.
You're a useful idiot for the ruling class.

>>17493891
Nah, you idiots get really stupid. Even when evidence is presented that show your theories clearly fail (like the inability to plan an economy without price signals, the fact that communist states typically killed millions of their own people on purpose or through gross negligence of their own) you just blame the CIA. These conspiracy theories are great for communists because they serve for great propaganda to keep the grift going like Qanon supporters do.

>>17493194
because communism was objectively the most edgy political stance for westeners for about 50 years. Why is Hitler appropriated by people he would detest?

This is all you need.

>>17494028
>For in much wisdom is much grief, And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow

>>17493213
>marxism is a rational enlightenment ideology
Just admit you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Guys, literally debate Marx now with this guy:
https://youtu.be/PNdgFtqmvC4
He's literally the most based Marxist online.

Jesus christ this thread is full of fucking retards

>>17494197
/lit/ in a nutshell

>>17494189
powerful failson energy

>>17493276
retarded mutt

man, wasn't jt Orwell that said that far leftism, including commies, attract degenerate mentally ill freaks, for lack of a better word?

>>17493194
Marx's ideology was so shit that his heirs literally had to dupe a bunch of sexual aberrants into keeping it alive because literally no one else would.

>>17493194
Because that's how ideas work. You don't need to be part of a club to adopt them or be inspired by them to create your own.

>>17494174
He probably meant modernisms.
There's no doubt that Marxism traces its lineage in the Enlightenment, the ostensible goal of all socialisms is to live up to the perceived promises of the French Revolution.
I'd even argue, perhaps more controversially that Fascism is also derived from the Enlightenment, even if it's a reaction to it.

Well he was agaisnt the family and by extension the patriarchy... and by extension...hmmn idea desu

>>17493584
>his naive historicism gets BTFO by Popper
>"it's based on reality as it exists guys, it's materialism"

>>17493194
That phenomenon is the product of bourgeois liberals infiltrating and subverting and replacing the labor movement with bourgeois lifestyle marketing demographic identity politics in order weaken and disrupt the working class's ability to solidify and unite and defend themselves against capitalist predation. Case in point: Occupy Wall Street. "Divide and conquer." That mechanism is intended to allow capitalism to throw of hinderances to its capacity to reproduce itself, which is the ultimate aim of all of capitalism's mechanisms.

>>17495601
/thread

>>17493269
based and tedpilled

Is it true you wagies work 50-60 hours a week?

>>17493194
Why does Marx get conflated with dumb shit until empty heads can be so kool-aid-fucked they make a gay post like yours, OP, you fucken fag?

>>17493194
they don't, its just retarded right wingers who think everyone who is broadly characterized as 'left' have the same beliefs

>>17493194
Fuck this ignorant jew

>>17493194
Capitalism promoted progressivism, which is women rights, migrant rights, gay rights in the medias, in the university, in order to divert attention from class struggle. It worked so well that even most non-marxists thinks marx is about progressivism.

>>17497692
>Capitalism promoted progressivism, which is women rights, migrant rights, gay rights in the medias, in the university, in order to divert attention from class struggle.
You're right but modern leftists did nothing against that, they were abettors. You should read Jean-Claude Michéa.

>>17497725
Modern leftist are not even anti-capitalist. They don't even read Marx.

>>17497733
That's true. They don't care about Marx anymore.
Modern leftism is all about Gramsci and neoliberalism "hidden" behind progressivism.

>>17493194
If Marx existed today, he''d be fully on board with fat acceptance, queer expression and whatever else right wingers get irrationally annoyed at, because he held similar positions for his time, such as anti-slavery, anti-racism against the Irish, pro-women's equality ect.

>>17493194
Americans; It always comes back to fucking Americans.

>>17497779
Except Gramsci was a Marxist. If they were all about Gramsci, they'd be Marxists still.

>>17498005
They are Marxists. People who get irrationally mad about race or gender topics on the other hand are chauvinists.

>>17498020
If they're still Marxists, they categorically care about Marx.

>>17493389
>unironically defending oppression as a necessity for human creativity
This board is sometimes even worse than /pol/ I swear to god.

>>17498028
Right, I don't know what part of fighting for queer rights or fat acceptance or any of the other things right wingers don't like makes you not a marxist if you also fight for socialism.

>>17498034
>even worse than /pol/
Good.
>>17493389
And he is right.

>>17498040
>I don't know what part of fighting for queer rights or fat acceptance or any of the other things right wingers don't like makes you not a marxist if you also fight for socialism.
They are the lumpen, you fucking degenerate retard.

"The lumpenproletariat, this scum of the decaying elements of all classes, which establishes headquarters in all the big cities, is the worst of all possible allies. It is an absolutely venal, an absolutely brazen crew. If the French workers, in the course of the Revolution, inscribed on the houses: Mort aux voleurs! (Death to the thieves!) and even shot down many, they did it, not out of enthusiasm for property, but because they rightly considered it necessary to hold that band at arm’s length. Every leader of the workers who utilize these gutter-proletarians as guards or supports proves himself by this action alone a traitor to the movement."

>>17498100
The lumpenproletariat are the elements of society that are mercenaries and will do whatever the highest bider pays them, not just people you find icky. Lumpenproles are like, bandits and gangsters, not people who have pueple hair and like Marvel or whatever bug bear is annoying this week.

Egalitarians are a major offender of this. People who preach multiculturalism and equality whilst Thinking they are Marxists are politically illiterate.

>>17498116
>The lumpenproletariat are the elements of society that are mercenaries and will do whatever the highest bider pays them
True.

>>17498153
Ah yeah, this old horseshit. Just because capitalists appropriate something for advertising doesn't mean that thing is invalidated or a corporate scheme. Capitalists will sell anything, if most of the country was like swole unionized dockworker chads they'd be using them in advertising as well. In fact I'm pretty sure they did.

>>17498172
Coping tranny.

>>17498195
Yeah yeah, now go watch a Prager U video where they talk about how all lefties are rich and aren't friends of working people while they themselves take millions from corporations to push this exact thing. The fact is, you're not a marxist, you're a nazi who wants to divide the working class.

>>17498226
Lmao, you're a confused and indoctrinated rich kid living in a developed country talking about "the working class" and defending the lumpen.
Come to South America and see for yourself what marxism and equality did to us.
> all lefties are rich
Not all of them ofc. But I can talk for what I see in my country, and the leftist politicians are rich as fuck here. And the same thing goes for every single leftist "intellectual".
>you're a nazi who wants to divide the working class.
I'm not. I am nacional justicialista.

>>17498408
None of this is an argument, you're just accusing me of hypocrisy because you don't actually have any good reason we shouldn't focus on race and gender issues as well as class.

>>17498432
probably because idpol has a time and a place,that is after the revolution(when is it coming by the way?)
But hey if you wanna try build a vanguard party with drug dealers and prostitutes,do it.
It will prove that we reactionaries are always right

>>17498468
Fighting for these issues is part of building for the revolution. When have reactionaries ever been right about anything. And drug dealing and prostitution have nothing to do with political alignment, you can be a drug dealer and be far-right. I don't know if you've ever looked into individual neo-nazis, but they're not exactly the morally purest people.

>>17498525
What are you farting on about?

>>17498525
>Fighting for these issues is part of building for the revolution
no,given by the fact that it's playing into the hands of the corporate class. You cannot talk about it in this framework because the damage already done
>When have reactionaries ever been right about anything
Always,since 1789
>And drug dealing and prostitution have nothing to do with political alignment
Then if you are a seroius committed marxist you need to call out all the progressive LARPers
They are hurting and alienating working clas people

>>17498574
Well put!

>>17493310

cringe, you're not intelligent

>>17493547
>endaemonia

stfu the greeks are worthless

>>17498559
I'm pretty sure I've talked to you specifically before on this board about the Victoria Woodhull thing. She was expelled because she was grifting for an election, not because of her free love or whatever. Also, she became a reactionary who thought women should all be barefoot and pregnant and shouldn't work, Marx would have kicked her out for that to.

>>17498574
No it isn't playing into the hands of the corporate class. There's no such thing as a "corporate class", there's just the capitalist class and the working class. Nazis always go on about bankers and "corporations" but they never seem to be bothered about other capitalists, which reveals their class collaborationist tendencies. You're hurting and alienating any working class people who aren't straight white cis men.

>>17498675
Are you able to reply without whataboutism?

>>17498701
Where's the whataboutism? That's what you're doing. I'm saying, lets fight for justice for all oppressed people's, and you're like "NO, ONLY CLASS", like, why? I feel like if you really are actually a leftist, its because you want to look good to /pol/lacks and you're scared of them calling you a beta basedcuck or something if you deviate from supporting anything that is isn't exclusive to white straight men.

>>17498675
yes it exists,even though they have their disagreements, they can pretty much control everything with technology and propaganda(corporation,governments,banks all hand in glove with each other)

Capitalism is irreformable for me;what you see has less to do with economics and more with racial solidarity
If i see a white man and a black man drowning i will save the former.

>>17495623
Absolutely right about the french revolution
>Fascism is also derived from the Enlightenment, even if it's a reaction to it.
Yes, read dialectic of enlightenment (though their reasoning is likely not yours)

>>17493276
Marxism is about the resentful intelligentsia spitballing ideas on how they can mobilize the masses and become the new ruling class.

>>17498741
So you're a white supremicist then. Believe me, I'm probably a lot more against the economics of capitalism than you are, its just I understand how capitalism works while you don't.

>>17493194
Because social movements in the mid-20th century borrowed heavily from Marxist methodology and iconography--the proponents clearly saw themselves as an underclass, a de facto proletariat of various identities, and the subsequent successors to true Marxism as the Soviet Union faltered.

But then they gave up and became bourgeoisie because it's way easier to Tweet snarky quips and re-post pithy graphics on Instagram than it is to engage in metaphysical discourse about identity, capital, class conflict, and the overarching structural issues that are endemic to a modern society.

Now the vanguard of Marxism is basically Zoomers on Tik Tok and Twitter spokespeople. And those watered-down dishonest soi mongoloids who call themselves the DSA. They treat the ideology like an aesthetic filter and contribute nothing in the way of action, or relevant literature, or meaningful art, because again, it's easier to leech off of an establishment than it is to build the tools that could reshape it.

I actually agree with certain Marxist points about the depersonalizing effects of capital, but I disagree heavily with the idea that the only way to truly reform society is to tear down material structures. Demolishing the old order and installing a new one does nothing to address the psychical problems underlying a culture which brought it to that point in the first place. That's just my opinion though, and I'd love to be able to discuss it with people my own age, but most of them either only care about Marxist thought as a superficial outfit, or they're so nose-deep in theory that they can't form any genuine individual opinions without referring to a Marxist text.

These ideological LARPers paralyzed themselves, and quite frankly, whatever end they meet, they have done everything to deserve.

>>17493194
This meme roasts leftists and normiecons alike, very spicy

>>17498897
it roasts liberals and righties, not lefties

>>17498921
Fair but you did the same thing with "righties"

It roasts the judeo-republicrats

>>17493389
Based take, hierarchy, responsibility and competition are necessary for progress

>>17493276
>Marxism is about freeing man from oppression
Lmao that’s liberalism. Marxism is far more specific, it’s not some broad and general “oppression bad” it’s a specific commentary on what Marx saw as the principle and only significant form of oppressive behaviour. Marx’s “scientific socialism” completely breaks apart if you start inserting identity politics because it is predicated on the uniting of workers, under Marx not only is race not supposed to matter, he would have you completely ignore its existence in either positive or negative ways

>>17498773
No, you just pretend to do so

>>17493372
>centuries of people reeeing about muh freedom from oppression
>all because a bunch of anglos and fr*nch“men” misinterpreted Spinoza’s idea of what freedom is
Freedom is to act rationally, free from your own confused passions and whims, freedom is NOT getting whatever you want

>>17498730
No you are confusing my posts with another poster. I am arguing that you are wrong about Marxism and we absolutely should not be engaging in the egalitarian philosophy that imagines whites as an oppressor class.

>>17499108
We're not engaging in the type of egalitarian philosophy Marx critiqued. Marx critiqued absolute equality, which is bad because specific people have specific needs. He wasn't critiquing equality in the sense of getting rid of racism.

>>17499140
We need to talk about Jewish privilege

>>17499214
I believe white privilege is the far more prescient problem.

>>17499574
For real or just memeing?

>>17499746
If you're talking about disparities in opportunity and living standards in the US and Europe, yes. Now that doesn't mean I think white should be "brought down a peg" or something, its not a zero-sum game where you make black people's lives better by making white people's worse, but the fact remains, in the US and Europe, if you take two people of comparable social standing, the black person is going to have it worse because they have to deal with racism as well. Its better to be a white homeless person than a black homeless person.

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