/lit/ - Literature

>>17490415
I don't know what their "endgame" is but I know that the only reason they have any relevance is because of people like you who have stooped low enough to allow them into political discussion. Sage and fuck you

>>17490415
>"hey, we exist too"
>IS THIS A CULTURAL GENOCIDE?
I don't know, Alex Jones, you tell me

>>17490415
Some want revenge against whitey. Some know they'll never be able to compete with the greats so removal is the only way for their culture to be ascendant.

>>17490415
Reading this article he has no endgame, or even a real critique. The dude just feels guilty for studying classics and not being able to help his people and as a result externalizes his guilt onto the classics as a field. He thinks by destroying classics he can rid himself of guilt, but he can’t, he’ll just end up guiltier than ever.

>>17491016
Nice gaslighting retard

Why aren't niggers and Jews swinging from trees yet? They are begging for it.

>>17491038
thanks, dickhead

>>17490415
Their endgame is something like this:

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2019/how-to-fix-politics-in-america/inequality/pass-an-anti-racist-constitutional-amendment/
>To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding anti-racist principals: Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals. The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold, as well as racist ideas by public officials (with “racist ideas” and “public official” clearly defined). It would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.

This is the key right here:
>The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold,
This is more or less some odd chimera we might term 'race-communism'. Inequity means outcomes, as opposed to opportunities, and they want to make it illegal basically for inequity above a 'certain threshold'.

>>17490415
Potemkin Village. All of these basket weaving nomenklatura ’disciplines’ are propped up by ill begotten Federal funding, and die once removed. The prosecution of the undeclared foreign dozens of billions swimming in US university endowments following the Charles Lieber arrest (Harvard Biochem, Wuhan 1k Talents Program) was a good start. Yes, it is much, much more sinister.

>>17490415
"
The decline of the European centric western world wouldn't be bad if it was being replaced by a more robust, beautiful successor, but that clearly isn't the case as we've seen in art, architecture, entertainment, beauty standards, body standards, gender rolls and the new archetypes through the generations. It's destruction without creation.
Non of the new progressive ideas are better than what we have had and in many regards they are a regression to older tried and tested, failed, methods of running a civilized society.
What many people who subscribe to the collapse narrative see coming in the next century is more barbarism, less beauty, more authoritarianism, more postmodern relativism and the destruction (without even the creation) of norms that help maintain a civilized functioning society.

I'd have more respect for the new progressive left if it created more than it destroyed. All I see from them is destruction and mediocrity, throw a cross into a mug of piss and call it "modern art" that "makes you think".
Or fucking a black man and abandoning your genes over some guilt complex that's been brainwashed into you.
Or chop of your dick for social credit and a special snowflake card.
Or justifying authoritarian measurements against free speech because it's against those you disagree with.
Or abandoning your culture for a globalist mono-culture where everyone's culture is watered down and soiled.
"

> This is more or less some odd chimera we might term 'race-communism'. Inequity means outcomes, as opposed to opportunities, and they want to make it illegal basically for inequity above a 'certain threshold'.
When you have no fucking idea what communism is but you have to bring it up and gaslight fourchan retards into associating postmodern racial theory with marxism.

>>17491090
>>17491057
tag

>>17490528
Yeah please stop talking about NYT articles, CNN stories, and supreme court cases. You're giving them publicity.

I want accelerationism to happen and clown world to end as quickly as possible. So I will just say the obvious to speed it along and get the collective conscious one step closer.

Niggers are not human. They are some weird hominid evolutionary detour, and to pretend they have """""art""""" is actual insanity.

>>17491090
No I know what communism is, it's abolition of capitalism and the state, workers owning the means of production, blah blah blah stuff that will never happen. The government forcing everyone to have equal outcomes resembles the USSR enough for me to call it communism, regardless of how you guys envision your end goal.

>>17491110
>The government forcing everyone to have equal outcomes resembles the USSR enough for me to call it communism
uh huh, yeah. The USSR didn’t have equal outcomes, no socialist country ever has. They HAVE had equal opportunity and meritocracy, but equal outcomes? Never. You do not know anything about the USSR or any other socialist state.

>>17491123
The liberals are just applying the class framework to race, effectively stating that "race warfare" exists.
Dilate

>>17491123
Kendi's proposal wouldn't have equal outcomes either, it would just massively distort the relation between ability, effort, and outcome, just as the USSR did, in the interest of having more equal outcomes, 'a certain threshold of inequity'.

>>17490415
It’s both. These people want you have but for them and theirs and they’ll use any dirty, under-handed trick to make that happen but at a much deeper and more insidious level, these people don’t want anything. Rather, they’re simply animated, knowingly or unknowingly, by sub-human, anti-human forces which seek domination.

>>17491145
>The liberals are just applying the class framework to race, effectively stating that "race warfare" exists.
They aren’t at all, and way to completely change your statement lmao. Maybe get off /lit/ and read something, anything.

>dilate
Not a tranny, but I am a terf ;)

>>17490528
> *gets hired into university faculty by subversive ideologue academics*
> *gets propped up as heroic for pushing subversive, corrosive ideas by academy and other aligned institutions*
> *proceeds to educate hundreds, maybe thousands of kids, doing best along the way to indoctrinate them into the cult of “progress”*
> heh actually it’s you’re fault for reading the headline, you chud
I honestly can’t believe how stupid some of you people are.

>>17491151
>it would just massively distort the relation between ability, effort, and outcome, just as the USSR did, in the interest of having more equal outcomes, 'a certain threshold of inequity'.
Yeah, any proof of the USSR doing that? LOL. The USSR fixed social inequity by changing base economic structures, giving people good free education, housing, etc. to create equal opportunity. Through this and preventing the irrational hoarding of resources by elite capitalists, outcomes eventually leveled significantly but not totally. Basically, the USSR focused on the start of inequity and not the end as this proposal does.

>>17491157
>They aren’t at all
They literally think police are hunting down blacks

>>17491036
That struggle sounds like it would make good literature unironically

>>17490415
I don't know what these guys want. Blacks are the "upper/superior" race in the eyes of the law, in the media, etc. What more do you want?

>>17491189
the USSR liquidated an entire class of peasants because they had succeeded at amassing slightly more land than other peasants

>>17491190
>They literally think police are hunting down blacks
And this is proof they’re applying class analysis to race? How? Also, liberals don’t LITERALLY believe blacks are being hunted down by cops, they believe black people are disproportionately affected by police violence, which is an objective fact.

>>17490415
Read the article, dumbfuck.

>>17491214
>disproportionately affected by police violence,
Because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime, so they have a disproportionate amount of encounters with police. The rate of police violence per encounter is not higher for them. This was well known statistics during the entire GF protests that was just ignored.

>>17491214
Blacks disproportionately commit crime so of course they would encounter the police more frequently.

>>17491210
>the USSR liquidated an entire class of peasants because they had succeeded at amassing slightly more land than other peasants
Yes they prevented the irrational hoarding of resources by capitalists, I already said this. Besides, the liquidation of kulaks was about collectivizing agriculture not equalizing outcome. It was a proposal that, again, attacked inequity at its base (start) and not at its result (end). Entirely different.

>>17490415
There is no endgame. They are trapped in a holiness spiral where whoever is lefter gets to survive a little longer without getting cancelled. They are riding the tiger.

>>17490415
promoting diversity and inclusion for all identities in the globalized world

>>17491210
sounds based

>>17491223
>>17491227
Im not going to debate this tangential bullshit with you. The fact is that liberals do not apply a ‘class analysis’ to race. It’s just not a thing that’s happening. This PoMo critical theory has nothing to do with Marxism.

>>17491233
>they prevented the irrational hoarding of resources by capitalists,
You can call it what you like they still took totalitarian measures, involving brutal violence and repression, to level outcomes in a population. Kendi just wants to do this between races

>>17491240
>What's wrong with institutionalising ebonics, chud?
>Why are you upset that dialects exist?
>REEEEEEEEE DESTROY CLASSICISM NOW!!!!!

>>17491247
It's the same thing, you guys make up a story about people who succeed in capitalist societies oppressing the ones who don't, and Kendi makes up a story about whites oppressing blacks.

>>17490415
(((Their))) endgame is no less than the complete destruction and degradation of Western Civilization.
We must stop (((them))) before it's too late (I pray it's not too late already)!

>>17491292
So then literally anybody who talks about anybody oppressing anybody is marxism? You’re a retard

>>17490415
I read that article earlier on in the week, it's pure madness. The gist of what the article argues is that because fragments of antiquity have been domineered by the 'far-right' historically and to this day (like the tards on pol who champion 'SPQR' and post Roman statues representing 'whiteness'). Despite the fact that the Romans/Greeks would hardly qualify for such people's standards of ethnic 'whiteness' and that they're fundamentally incorrect, instead of going on a crusade to correct erroneous perceptions (which would contain reason), Padilla amongst others instead demand that the study of Greece & Rome should be obliterated as a formal study and censored from mainstream academia for its illicit 'ties'.
The article also explains his (Dan-el Padilla Peralta) tragic backstory from the Dominican Republic where he was prejudiced against for being black and about the Dominican Republic's authoritarian leader who invoked the "impeccable whiteness" of Athenian marble to portray Haitians as inferior.
Essentially he has an instinctive hatred of this championing of 'whiteness' as a result, which goes some way to explaining the general tone of spite and bitterness of the article. This is most evident when someone in the audience argues for the merits of antiquity, from something along it being the basis of liberty, equality, democracy and for being the political, literary and philosophical basis for the West and he replies, rather curtly, “here’s what I have to say about the vision of classics that you outlined. I want nothing to do with it. I hope the field dies that you’ve outlined, and that it dies as swiftly as possible".

It's just ludicrous, I don't even understand why he entered the field if he had always held such inherent disdain for what he feels it represents. Beyond that, I don't understand these people, have we just thrown rationality to the wind in the place of emotion, how can you with a straight face call for Classics to be dissolved into history, archaeology and language departments or for the cultures of Egypt, Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa to be given promoted rather than Ancient Greece and Rome, as if there the former group could offer any competition to the latter. I just don't know how any sane academic can, with an intellectual integrity, kowtow to this ridiculous modern zeitgeist, how much longer are these irrational outbursts going to be taken seriously? I just thank god that this trans-Atlantic madness hasn't (yet) seriously infiltrated English universities, luckily calling for something like this here would still be met with some derision (for now at least).

>>17491271
>to level outcomes in a population.
the key here is that leveling outcomes was NOT the goal of the collectivization of agriculture. The goal was to change the base economic structure of the society. Leveling outcomes is just a minor and natural outgrowth of that, but not a goal in and of itself. The goal, as I stated multiple times, is the equalization of opportunity which will naturally, as I just mentioned, lead to some degree of outcome leveling.

>>17491320
It's not marxism, it's just very reminiscent of communism, which I will remind you Marx didn't invent.

The whole liquidating the kulaks thing is why people despise communism btw. If you guys mostly talked about monopolists and banks most proles would agree with you, instead of focusing hatred on peasants who succeed slightly more than other peasants.

>>17491322
The anti-white movement is growing in the US

>>17491340
Kendi says the same thing you know, he sees white supremacy as a pervasive oppressive structure the way you see capital, and he doesn't think he's just leveling outcomes, but addressing 'root inequalities' or whatever.

the USSR did not create equalization of outcome anyway, it created an oligarchy that could control the entire population, somehow preferring this to the 'exploitation' of a peasant with 8 acres employing other peasants.

>>17491171
Retard, that's why professors have tenure, so they can't be censored just because their ideas appear absurd, as this man's ideas do. Not only that the majority of his colleagues disagree with him so he doesn't even exert that much influence on the faculty let alone the field itself. Seriously get off the internet and read a book instead of being outraged by the academic equivalent of a doomsday preacher in the city public square.

>>17491395
Do you have evidence of his colleagues disagreeing with him, some kind of public backlash perhaps?

>>17491355
>, it's just very reminiscent of communism,
Yeah, but it isn’t. You just such a retard. It’s not reminiscent of communism whenever somebody talks about oppression of one group by another.

>>17491108
exactly, and that's blacceleration for you, whitey

>>17491395
What happens when they get promoted despite their ideas?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2020/06/26/white-lives-dont-matter-academic-freedom-and-freedom-of-speech/?sh=3a0560293823

>>17490415

>>17491356
I don't have much sympathy towards whites when it comes to this. They had all the warnings in the world that this was going to happen, but instead of clamping down on it, they continually enabled and promoted it. When 2/3rds of the BLM/antifa crowds are White, I dunno what to tell you. You can say that they were inflicted by propaganda, and to some extent you're right, but come on. Every race has been on the receiving end of self-hate propaganda, and whites are the only race which internalized it to this degree. If you care about Whites, you should be fixing the self-hate/masochist issue, not flipping out about other races. Fix your own house first.

>>17491322
>I just thank god that this trans-Atlantic madness hasn't (yet) seriously infiltrated English universities, luckily calling for something like this here would still be met with some derision (for now at least).
deluded.

>>17491108

>>17491414
Totalitarian measures in the interest of eradicating differences of outcomes reminds people of communism, sorry. Same way that totalitarian measures in the interest of say national homogeneity and militarism remind people of fascism

>>17491057
Holy shit I'm pretty progressive by the standards of this web zone but this is insane. 'The solution to our problems is equity by force and a race stasi'

>>17491427
>If you care about Whites, you should be fixing the self-hate/masochist issue, not flipping out about other races
I can hate the aggressors too. The only hope for the US is a war because the propaganda is getting worse.

NIGGERS

>>17491057
>this is what leftists actually want

>>17491322
While I generally agree with you, I really don't see why classics couldn't be taught alongside the cultures/histories of Egypt, Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa. Perhaps teaching them all together as "ancient Mediterranean studies" or something would allow classics to survive without being cancelled for being a "white" field

>>17491485
How about we stop compromising because it never works.

>>17490415
egyptians are the new classics
learn hieroglyphs and deal with it whitey

>>17491455
That guy isn't fringe either, that's Ibram Kendi, he was on TIME's 100 most influential people of 2020 and has some popular meme books. He has so much clout with Progs that they defended him recently when he made some anti-transgender statement.

>>17491438
I am perfectly aware of what the situation is like here, but things like this is a far cry from the type of radicalism found in the article. Most the uproar here is centred around statues of those who are actual former-slavers, that and adding a degree of diversity to degrees (since I can't imagine there are many black major scientists/mathematicians who can unseat the major thinkers who are given prominence on courses), is really fairly mild compared to what's going on in the US

>>17491537
I wonder if you could do the opposite: be so pro-trans that you can be antiblack and the progressive establishment is cool with it

They just want every aspect of society transformed into a tool for achieving their broader agenda. Of classics in its current state is unfit for that, then it must be changed or destroyed.

The classics refer to the Western canon, of European civilization. Therefore it makes sense that the works are by Europeans. If you are interested in African or Asian literature, go take courses that go into the cultures and literature of that part of the world. Nobody is stopping them. If we are discussing European culture why do we need to incorporate non European works into it?

>>17491485
I would agree if only it would truly be that they would be simply 'offered' alongside traditional Greece and Rome. I suspect that what would far more likely happen is some kind of artificial promotion of the merit of North African, Anatolian, Egyptian thinkers at the expense of those of Greece and Rome. If it could be done without being infected by the strange obsession of trying to 'equalise' that which is traditionally weaker with what is stronger that characterises the modern left I would support it.

>>17491564
No, there's a reason people like him are able to use terms like "original sin" without any sense of irony when discussing these issues

>>17491564
No you can't, race>trans in the stack. If you're white trans you can get away sometimes with criticizing a straight black man or something, but if race is brought up it trumps gender id entirely. It's not even ambiguous at all.

There weren't 5 months of riots for trans lives matter in 2020, you just had a little bit of 'trans black lives matter' and so on.

>>17491592
The paradox of European universalism. They exported their culture to the world through imperialism and felt that it was the most enlightened state of humanity that everyone else had to follow. The West became the world's culture because of their actions and ideals.

>>17491597
Ancient Near East Studies is a thing, you know.

>>17491592
He wants to destroy it really

>>17491541
Cope. We're all living in America, we're just always a year or two behind. We need to rid ourselves of toxic American ideology altogether.

>>17491608
>No you can't, race>trans in the stack.
From what I've seen, some black gays and women are pushing back against this. Emphasizing that black men are "trash" (i.e. homophobic and misogynistic), "straight black men are the white people of black people," etc.

he wants to make the classics more accessible to diverse groups of people besides wealthy educated white men

>>17491627
>straight black men are the white people of black people
Straight black guy here. I think about this phrase everyday since I read it years ago in utter disbelief. How did we get here?

>>17491629
Yeah because wealthy white men are all Greek/Italian pagans. If you're in the West you can understand Classic works. He's just a bitter nigcel.

>>17491629
How does changing it in the ways he recommends accomplish this?

>>17491016
Yeah, we know “you” exist, whoever that is. But the Classics is the study of classical Greece and Rome. Why would you be upset that someone who studies the works of Greece and Rome does not also study the works of African tribes, etc.? You don’t need to tear down the whole field of study of classical Greece and Rome just because the history of your own people is not included in the study of Classical Greece and Rome.
There is no inherent value in “progressive” Iconoclasm, it is a disgrace

>>17491649
It's kinda like the feminists (like TERF feminists). They thought the buck of "progress" stopped with their issues. Unfortunately for them, their time at the top of the oppression food chain came to an end. Mark my words, sooner or later the same thing's going to happen to LGBT people.

>>17491629
The classics are universal works. Go to a bookstore in Beijing and you will see translations of Shakespeare and Plato on the shelves. Likewise, Zhuangzi and Han Feizi belong in the canon, as do the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishaads. Anyone who thinks the race of these authors matters in slightest has no idea what the classics are

>>17491626
I don't know about that, I definitely think that England is more resilient to this insanity, traditional values are far more entrenched. Take a look at Johnson for example, before his government's performance on Covid, he was an extremely popular and generally well-received figure, all in spite of his 'outrageous' little quips in the past, like calling muslim women in burqas 'letter-boxes' or writing of the 'watermelon smiles' of Congo tribesmen. Although a huge amount of American waste is unfortunate transmitted through the god-forsaken linguistic link we share, like a sewage pipe feeding into a clear lake, I'd say that the taste here for this corrosive brand of American liberalism has decreased, rather than increased, in recent time.

>>17491541
This >>17491626 anon is right. Their saying that their movement is "just about statues" is a lie. Post-OWS liberalism said it was "Just about inclusion". Then it was "Just about statues". Then it was "Just about decolonization". And now it's about annihilating European culture in America. It is a battle of cultural imperialism, the point of which is to annihilate historical objectivism and reduce it to a common story which can be engineered from the top-down for the benefit of the ruling class. We are exiting the phase of this conflict which can be fought through advocacy, and entering the phase of legislation and rebellion.

>>17491649
Because straight black guys embrace this mode of operation whenever it puts on its "Equality for black people" mask, which it then uses to legitimize itself. They hijacked you to use as a human shield so the movement cannot be attacked. If you don't start fighting this intellectual movement wholesale, even including the parts that have benefitted you, it will continue this behavior.

>>17491223
>The rate of police violence per encounter is not higher for them.
source?

they just hate white people lol. simple as. it's facilitated by people in general lack individuality and moral fibre, they are purely socially determined so they go along with whatever thinking they don't want to get burnt. these days you really will get burnt so you can't blame anyone in particular.

>>17491322
>Egypt, Anatolia, the Levant and North Africa to be given promoted rather than Ancient Greece and Rome, as if there the former group could offer any competition to the latter
Considering that Mesopotamians have had a much larger effect on the development of civilzation than Greeks or Romans, I'd say they can.

>>17491716
England probably (correct me if I'm wrong) falls into the curse of apathy. I suspect many of you think the anti-Western movement is stupid and ridiculous, but because you don't take it seriously you aren't willing to take action against it, only to speak against it. This has a double-edged sword in that because you're "Not supposed to take it seriously", radical action to counter the movement is seen as unjustified. So from an intercultural-conflict perspective, it would make sense to counter the narrative of American cultural imperialism by hyper-Anglicizing the curriculum and population of the state to strengthen the country in the face of this attack on English values. But because it's perceived as a joke, and not a real attack, such movement is mocked or blocked for the intrinsic radicalism it WOULD have if the state were NOT under a cultural attack.

>>17491322
>>17491754
the relevance of those places was mostly only propped up by europeans though. there were and are a lot of orientalists. also, the world today is europe-lite and europe is strongly influenced by greeks and romans, so you are wrong.

>>17491712
If they were really concerned with accessibility, they would support things like trying to create Greek and Latin language programs for youth or working to bring accurate renderings of classical work to people via mass media.
Wanting to destroy classics as a discipline if it resists being instrumentalized for your agenda does nothing to make it more accessible.

homies going about it the wrong way
all you gotta do is meme the egyptians so people WANT to study them as much as they want to study the greeks
write the great egyptian mythology novel

>>17491783
>the relevance of those places was mostly only propped up by europeans though
Yeah - writing, statescraft, astronomy, mathematics, literature aren't really that important.
>the world today is europe-lite and europe is strongly influenced by greeks and romans
And who were the Greeks influenced by, again?

>>17491541
>adding a degree of diversity to degrees (since I can't imagine there are many black major scientists/mathematicians who can unseat the major thinkers who are given prominence on courses
but science and mathematics courses aren't about individuals at all. this history of mathematics plays zero part in the vast majority of math courses. so what exactly there is to add diversity to I have no idea. cauchy isn't given "prominence" in a course on complex analysis. all you ever hear about cauchy is his name (cauchys theorem, cauchys formula etc).

>>17491818
>And who were the Greeks influenced by, again?
Everyone has been influenced by someone else at some point. Outside of their architectural achievements, they Egyptians we're practically cavemen compared to the greeks.

>>17491057
>>To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding anti-racist principals: Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals. The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold.
There's literally nothing wrong with this.

>>17491629
>>17491712
nobody loves ibsen as much as the chinese. "making available to" is just leftist codespeak for niggers chimping, whitey bad etc.

>>17491850
If the use of religious terminology to discuss politics like that isn't an immediate red flag to you, you've got issues.

>>17491844
>Everyone has been influenced by someone else at some point.
True, but the Greeks owe, among other things, their medicinal knowledge to Egypt and their astronomical knowledge to Babylonia.
>Outside of their architectural achievements, they Egyptians we're practically cavemen compared to the greeks.
- and most of Egyptian invention took place before the Greek states existed. Look, I'm not the one denying that the Greeks aren't (very) important, yet you're the one calling the Mesopotamians and Egyptians ''propped up''. It's an absolutely risible statement.

>>17491754
they never had a euclid or aristotle. cope.

>focusing on destroying what you’ve declared sinful
>instead of drawing attention to works from non-European contexts that could be interesting and that could enrich the literary field instead of impoverishing it

Wokeys confirms as the new Protestants

>>17491871
>brainlet can't comprehend metaphor and analogy

>>17491850
There is. The major issue is that, let's face, there will always be inequality in humans, it's just biological fact. So, there becomes the overarching issues of 1. Inequality cannot be "fixed," and that the barometer for what constitutes "equal" can never be met; 2. To "fix" inequality, there must also be measures put into place which promote positive discrimination based on race: an inherently-racist practice.

Both sides of the sword are negative outcomes and do not address the underlying issue (culture), but do address the superficial issue (race).

>>17490415
There is no endgame.
Conceive of liberalism as the end-stage of empire. Institutions are made of libido- the institutional machine continues to run as long as cause is found for it, and enough people find it causally important enough to invest in/rely on. in other words, it has a place in the project of people who actually exist.
OK so now we're here in the >current year, we've all stopped buying books in favor of watching people on youtube yell at their cameras and laughing at each other's anonymous bathroom wall petroglyphs on this very website. The relevance of the university is less obvious to us, partly because they've been repurposed by the financial hegemony into tax shelter hedge funds which happen to teach some classes, partly because the underground oil monster we call "capital" needs consumers and drone pilots more than it needs men of letters and engineers.
But there is some agency and subjectivity left in the university, some note that it is no longer relevant, and since it's subordinate to rather than separate from the dominant culture, it sets to destroying itself. All of this is rationalization for some future complete destruction of the idea of public education, probably dismissal of the very concept of public funds going to something as irrelevant and long-term as the improvement of the personal intellect of a few specific individual citizens. There's various individual opportunists who will help that process along in exchange for respect and money.
Maybe not though. Everything changes, and no trend continues forever, but that's what we are seeing right now.

>>17491873
>they never had a euclid or aristotle
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/babylonians-tracked-jupiter-with-fancy-math-tablet-reveals/
The computation in the tablets mentioned in the article above are, in some ways, more advanced than Greek ones. Read a book.

>>17491850
Who determines the threshold? How do they determine this objectively?

>>17491891
Also worth looking at,
D+G identify a few institutions as separate and independent from the hegemonic culture- particularly the war machine, which is sort of co-opted but not fully restrained/defined by the state's military apparatus.
So watch out for that being a lot more robust than any sort of university, corp, or church.

>>17491896
I'm sure it's "defined" in the same way they "defined" hate speech.

>>17491891
Indubitably based

>>17491886
look, there have arguably been societies more equal than those now and since this is the context of america, there are literally societies more equal than america itself. secondly, youre attacking a complete strawman; no one is talking about every individual being equal; just no apparent disparities between groups.
>>17491896
almost or perfectly equal. what sophistry are you trying to engage in?

>>17491879
The black discourse in the US has been framing social issues as theological ones for well over a century. The extent that it is a metaphor is highly questionable. I have no doubt that Kendi wants to treat the idea of racism almost exactly as a religious catholic treats that of original sin.

>>17491931
>perfectly equal
Equality of outcome? This is utopian and impossible to achieve

>>17491933
it is a "sin" that needs to assuaged though. and it arguably hasnt been enough.
>>17491941
you could've read the whole post

>>17491931
Who determines how equal is equal enough? If you are using the law to enforce equal opportunity, how is the law not already equal with things like quotas, affirmative action, anti discrimination, hate crime, etc?

>>17491850
It doesn't change people's beliefs at their core, it just suppresses them by force and rewards others artificially based on race. That will create more problems

>>17491944
>it is a "sin" that needs to assuaged though. and it arguably hasnt been enough.
You realize you just belong to the religion we're talking about

>>17491872
I'm only talking Egypt, not any of the others. The level of abstraction in Greek thought when compared to that of the Egyptians makes the Egyptians intellectually closer to the cavemen than to the Greeks. That the Greeks owed the least impressive portion of their intellectual contributions to them doesn't change this.

>>17490415
>Save classics
That's like amputating a healthy limb in order to cure it from a non-existant disease. Cant these people be executed?

>>17491941
>>17491931
This is either low tier bait or you're utterly retarded.

>>17491408
You didn't even bother reading the article? Jesus.

>>17491946
>Who determines how equal is equal enough?
equal just means equal; no disparities.
>how is the law not already equal with things like quotas
its okay, but perhaps not enough. for example, what kendi is talking about does not exist.
>>17491955
>rewards others artificially based on race
thats what society does right now anyways.
>It doesn't change people's beliefs at their core
are you talking about racist beliefs? its easy to conceive that if minorities were on par with white people in terms of equality, negative views of them would decline because the fact that so many of them are in poverty no doubt contributes to negative attitudes many harbor towards them.
>>17491958
it's easy to argue that anything is a fucking religion. most groups have a set of beliefs, rituals, customs, and their own lingo.

>>17492000
Note the manipulative wording that they are "saving" the classics from whiteness, when the category of books generally recognized as "classics" was written in a European civilization of white people who were unique for heavily emphasizing literacy and reading.

>>17490415
Why would he major in the classics, spend 7 years of his life in grad school just to bitch that his field is filled with DEAD WHITE MEN. Nigga should've just done francophone studies lmfao.

>>17492025
The article itself is worse. It cites Black Athena and the backlash it got as an example of needing "saving", when that book is Hotep shit that got absolutely eviscerated for being horrible history.
I read the article without adblock and i feel bad about it, dont do it.

>>17492021
>the fact that so many of them are in poverty no doubt contributes to negative attitudes many harbor towards them
This is an axiom and not a factual statement
>thats what society does right now anyways.
This is a mythological statement with little basis in reality.
>equal just means equal; no disparities.
This is a mythological statement with little basis in reality. If equality doesn't exist in in-groups it can't exist between different groups.
>it's easy to argue that anything is a fucking religion.
No it isn't. Read Durkheim.

>>17492021
>it's easy to argue that anything is a fucking religion. most groups have a set of beliefs, rituals, customs, and their own lingo.
It's a religion because there is no evidence anyone could present to you that would make you believe the disparity in outcomes was due to innate differences rather than discrimination. You take this on faith, refuse to consider evidence against it, and treat those that do as morally repugnant.

>>17492040
You clearly haven't read the article.
>>17492042
And you haven't read Black Athena. Don't fall for the hype or backlash. It's not even that radical.

>>17492021
>it's easy to argue that anything is a fucking religion. most groups have a set of beliefs, rituals, customs, and their own lingo.
The current brand of liberalism is nothing more than another flavor of Christianity

>>17492076
You must have an extremely loose definition of christianity.

>>17492063
Black Athena's justification that Egyptians colonized Greece is literally just
>Well the Greeks talked about Ethiopia and Egypt a lot and no one's proven that Greece WASN'T colonized by Egypt so...
The book was rejected because it presented an absurd premise that contradicts all existing knowledge about Greek civilization and justified it with thin air. No one contends that it's true. It's not about being radical, it's that the book presents a claim with literally no evidence.

>>17491818
>writing, statescraft, astronomy, mathematics, literature
Fine, but Greek thinkers far surpass what we have left of Mesopotamian works on these subjects, at least what fragments we've been able to piece together. Beyond the fact that Greek thought dwarves that of ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia, how would you construct a robust discipline to match the enormous corpus of Greece and Rome with so few extant fragments, considering even the Epic of Gilgamesh - what must be the most well known Mesopotamian work - is riddled with parts of its sentences, and even whole sections.

>>17491057
>o fix the original sin of racism
but I don't believe in sin, its not real but a white construct....................

>>17492054
you've a whole lot of explaining to do. why is nothing factual or not based in reality?

>>17492092
To add to that, it's pretty well known that Greeks had a lot of influence from Phoenicians, Persians, Egyptians, Carthaginians and Mesopotamians, so the idea that all that influence is somehow ignored by historians is simply false.
Also, African =/= black, because to the ancient Greeks, Africa really just meant North Africa, hence the name Africa (Land of sand).

>>17492113
*riddled with holes that is

>>17492059
this sounds like complete projection

>>17491057
>certain threshold
wait so are the races not absolutely equal?

>>17491963
>I'm only talking Egypt, not any of the others.
Then what is the point? Oriental culture includes both Mesopotamian, Levantine and Egyptian civilizations.
>The level of abstraction in Greek thought when compared to that of the Egyptians makes the Egyptians intellectually closer to the cavemen than to the Greeks.
A gross overstatement, nonetheless - Egyptians, while arguably not as scientifically advanced as the Babylonians, were not ''closer to cavemen'' than to the Greeks. I'm having trouble imagining that you know a lot about Egyptian culture based on this, although that the Greeks became very far ahead intellectually is indisputable.
>That the Greeks owed the least impressive portion of their intellectual contributions to them doesn't change this.
- and then much of the rest to Mesopotamia. It does not make them less advanced in any sense of the word, but it makes them less important in isolation.

>>17492137
Yeah, you're open to talking about the evidence for and against race differences? Even funding studies about it?

>>17491893
Not proofs, not axioms, not rational philosophical argumentation. Ancient greeks completely moggs them.

>>17492113
>Fine, but Greek thinkers far surpass what we have left of Mesopotamian works on these subjects, at least what fragments we've been able to piece together. Beyond the fact that Greek thought dwarves that of ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia
I never disputed this.
>robust discipline to match the enormous corpus of Greece and Rome with so few extant fragments, considering even the Epic of Gilgamesh - what must be the most well known Mesopotamian work - is riddled with parts of its sentences, and even whole sections.
The fragmentatory state of many Mesopotamian documents is counterbalanced by the sheer magnitude of the textual record. The problems of reconstructing Mesopotamian intellectual worlds has less to do with issues of the sources and rather more to do with philological issues (the antiquity or obscurity of the languages).

>>17492042
>Black Athena
Tell me more.

>>17492180
>Not proofs, not axioms
The question of whether explicit axioms is meaningful to determine the level of abstraction is somewhat dubious, in my opinion.
>Ancient greeks completely moggs them.
I never disputed this - but to claim that there aren't certain developments in Babylonian mathematics that are more advanced than the Greeks (such as knowledge of the Pythagorean theorem at least 1300 years before Pythagoras) is absurd.

>>17492126
Ignoring point 3 since I explained it, point 1 is an axiom because it's a corollary of the fundamental axiom, which is that race does not/should not affect ability to function in society. If all races can function in society equally, then difference in how they do so must be due to social factors like poverty or racism. Therefore some whites not liking blacks due to their inability to function in society must be caused by racism, not black culture or phenotypical differences. Point 2 is an extension of this. Since you refuse to accept "black people simply can't function in western civilization as well as white people for phenotypical reasons" as a valid answer, you're left with "Differences are due to an external factor" which is broadly labeled as racism.

>>17491712
Though in the context of academic education the term classic means greco-roman classicism we call it the classical world. While I agree other cultures have classic works the two are not the same, in this case. Its a matter of terminology not value, if a
show nigger at an elite university cant understand this its obvious he doesnt belong.

>YO LASHAWNDA DEEZ GREEKZ IZ BEIN UP IN HURR TRYIN TO NON-BEIN DEY WHITENISS COLONIZIN 'GAIN

>>17491016
>"We exist, but our literary tradition does not."
Why can't you just found your own tradition instead of trying to infiltrate and destroy ours? You people are vindictive and evil - you will never be White and that fact makes you seethe.

>>17492040
From what I understand he began researching how similar slavery in Rome was to "his own family's history" and colonial slavery (in spite of the obvious lack of racial factor) and that set him down the path of rejecting his discipline. He then writes that he 'decolonised' his mind which somehow turned him against Rome, as if Sumer wasn't the birth-place of slavery, or as if Egypt didn't originate one of the largest racial slave-caste systems in the ancient world. I somewhat can appreciate his disdain for Roman slavery, especially given his own 'family story', but I wonder why he doesn't extend this indignation for the atrocities of other non-Roman/Greek civilisations (which are instead promoted). Is it simply because they are 'non-western'?

>>17492207
Math is based on proof. Mesopotamians never had a euclid. Nor did anyone else either. Greeks mogg. Copemoredotcom.

>>17492167
>. I'm having trouble imagining that you know a lot about Egyptian culture based on this,
I had to spend a year learning about them, and I wasn't impressed. What struck me was just how primitive their writings were. The only thing noteworthy about them is that they built large scale projects at a very early time, but I don't find that all that impressive in the grand scheme of things.

>>17492252
you think that pointing out these things somehow hurts them or makes them re-evaluate their life? they take pride in knowing that they will erase white western heritage. 200 years from now on it will be politically incorrect for a european to say he's a native european

>>17492257
>I wonder why he doesn't extend this indignation for the atrocities of other non-Roman/Greek civilisations (which are instead promoted). Is it simply because they are 'non-western'?
Its because they are not white....that is where is problem begins and ends, he is infact a racist.

>>17492257
Yeah, I wonder if he ever mentions how the Romans enslaved Europeans simply because they lost the fight, kind of like Western Africans enslaved neighboring tribes who lost the war and sold them in bulk to whypipo.

>>17492274
200 years from now the world will either be one stinking, savage nigger slum or capital will have realized itself as a super computer and harvested every human for atoms.

>>17492260
Babylonians had proofs, just not Euclidian proofs. Their more than elementary computations were based on implicit proofs, or else they would not have been able to do them.
>Mesopotamians never had a euclid.
And?
>Greeks mogg.
Are you capable of communicating beyond idiotic memephrases?

>>17491850
>Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals.
No one has ever managed to make a test of competence which both:
a) provides a useful signal as to future performance (at any particular task)
and
b) allows all races to score approximately equally
Such a policy is declaring that America must live in some crazy dreamworld where black incompetence is ignored and tolerated, promoted even, at every level, both private and public. You're part way there already, but enshrining it in the constitution would essentially short circuit the functionality of the entire country.

>>17492292
Cope.

>>17492266
>What struck me was just how primitive their writings were.
You think texts like 'A Man and his Ba' are primitive?

>>17492302
lol only one group actually reflects the population demographics

>>17492303
So no? Kek

>>17492327
Which one, because to me it looks like hispanics are underrepresented in most and jews overrepresented (though of course for this particular purpose they will always be counted as white).

>>17492362
Seconded. Jews are like 3% of the population iirc. The only where they're proportionally represented have dramatic underrepresentation of hispanics, asians, and blacks. Where jews are underrepresented, the other groups are there (minus asians). Every other group Jews are dramatically overrepresented.

>>17492362
whites. everyone else is underrepresented and pushed out by overrepresentation of jews.

>>17492210
>point 1 is an axiom because it's a corollary of the fundamental axiom, which is that race does not/should not affect ability to function in society. If all races can function in society equally, then difference in how they do so must be due to social factors like poverty or racism. Therefore some whites not liking blacks due to their inability to function in society must be caused by racism, not black culture or phenotypical differences.
and if I believe this is true, i do not see a problem with the axiom (though I'm skeptical as to whether they actually behave differently and it's just perceptions thereof). even if i were to concede that hereditarians are correct and black people being icky was genetic, i think it would still follow that many would harbor racist attitudes because of their perceptions of black behavior and that if black behaviour were to be "ameliorated" there would still be less racist attitudes.
>Since you refuse to accept "black people simply can't function in western civilization as well as white people for phenotypical reasons" as a valid answer, you're left with "Differences are due to an external factor" which is broadly labeled as racism.
okay?
>Ignoring point 3 since I explained it
i'm genuinely puzzled by your explanation. first, it's not clear why equality isn't possible? most can be improved via technology (or future technology; perhaps gene editing if hereditarians turn out to be right, unlikely) or better cirumstances. second, it's not clear why, that if inequality were to be impossible, its undesirable or bad.

>>17492391
>very other group Jews are dramatically overrepresented.
Niggers will deny this to the death, and still bitch about whites who bend over backwards for them. Niggers are nothing more than puppets at this point, and a threat of genocide, via their ignorance.

>>17490528
fpbp

>>17492302
>that chart
wild how the top one (half black) is the most 'racist' and the bottom one (half self-styled Master Race) is least 'racist'