/lit/ - Literature

>>17485844
Nations are clearly not real. Why the fuck should I base my ideology around them? In before nothing is real, some things are more obviously not real than others and the division of peoples into nations is one of them obvious ones.

Nationalism was nothing but the first step towards the destruction of the local. Nationalists are literal cucks for an abstraction that makes no sense, kills language diversity and creates a certain flow of power and money to the capital, alienating most of the other cities around. Nationalism can't be really separated, quite paradoxically, from global trade and internationalism. In other words: nationalists are all bugmen pretending to really like the local, while destroying it anyway. Fuck nations.

Nationalism only makes sense in a land where jus sanguinis is the law. Jus soli nations, it's wholly arbitrary. You just so happened to fall out of the womb there.

If I have a nation, that nation might be corrupted or invaded or destroyed. That would be bad. So it's better if I don't have a nation

I'm a fan of the nation. The world nation. All people, one government.

>>17485844
>nationalism
You LARP, annoy everyone you know and ultimately achieve nothing.
>anti nationalism
Default position for anyone with an IQ above 110, no arguments needed.

“Now, there is no such thing as ‘man’ in this world. In my life I have seen Frenchmen, Italians, Russians, and so on. I even know, thanks to Montesquieu, that one can be Persian. But as for man, I declare I’ve never encountered him.”

>>17485864
True. Nationalism was actually the beginning of globalism.

>>17485844

Nations are historical constructs that have been mostly disconnected from anything that was supposed to initially bind them together. Finding a way beyond Nations is quite obviously the task of any superior intellect with any understanding of the forces arrayed against his freedom.
However I am probably one of the only ones to think that the only way beyond Nations is through them.

Obviously the state is important, but spiritually speaking? How can an atheistic state be spiritually significant? It could only help materialize my desires materially.

The things you are looking for are found in some sort of religious ideal, equality in heart, not in absolute economic terms. :3

Funnily enough, the spirit/soul is crushed every single time that any roadblocks are subverted for the "greater" cause of instilling some sort of economic agent distributing resources according to some kind of 'plan'.

>Also difference of race is a cause of faction, until harmony of spirit is reached; for just as any chance multitude of people does not form a state, so a state is not formed in any chance period of time. Hence most of the states that have hitherto admitted joint settlers or additional settlers23 have split into factions; for example Achaeans settled at Sybaris24 jointly with Troezenians, and afterwards the Achaeans having become more numerous expelled the Troezenians, which was the Cause of the curse that fell on the Sybarites; and at Thurii Sybarites quarrelled with those who had settled there with them, for they claimed to have the larger share in the country as being their own, and were ejected; and at Byzantium the additional settlers were discovered plotting against the colonists and were expelled by force of arms; and the people of Antissa25 after admitting the Chian exiles expelled them by arms; and the people of Zancle26 after admitting settlers from Samos were themselves expelled; and the people of Apollonia on the Euxine Sea after bringing in additional settlers fell into faction; and the Syracusans after the period of the tyrants27 [1303b] [1] conferred citizenship on their foreign troops and mercenaries and then faction set in and they came to battle; and the Amphipolitans having received settlers from Chalcis were most of them driven out by them.

Aristotle Politics Book 5

>>17485844
They’re spooks, held together with lies and violence.
They’re unstable. Always collapsing in ever dangerous conflagrations.
They’re odious. The elite few are rarely ever deserving of the riches, the majority are forced into poverty and ignorance.

It’s about time we sweep the concept up i to the dustbin

>>17485999
r u describing women, m8? lmao just bustin your bells.

>>17485885
Voltaire?

>>17486031
De Maistre.

First, we must define nationalism.

>>17486010
Woman isn’t a spook/concept.
The picture is courage the cowardly girl

>>17486038
As bad a Fox newz anchors

>>17485844
While not strictly logical, the sense of belonging and tribalism is inherent in humanity.
It is necessary because it can unite us and make us improve, help each other, etc.
It is ethical as it tries to make the best out of the tribalist human nature.

Being against nationalism disrupts society long term, you can't go against nature like that and expect everything to proceed as normal.

>>17486113
Ok miss Humanz.

Localism is self defeating in the modern world; it very simply can't and won't take hold. Just like communism. Couldn't care less how great it sounds, it's an anachronism and it's never going to happen. Nationalism, however, can and does happen. And it's the easiest tool we can reach for to disrupt unrelenting internationalism. Start with nationalism and then build off of that. Internationalism is infinitely more odious than nationalism, and the most unfortunate aspect of nationalism (war between developed nations) is highly unlikely to arise. France and Germany aren't going to start launching artillery shells at each other if they become more protectionist.

>>17486160
As for Europe the only way out is a kind of pan-European nationalism.

>>17486196
Deceitful and incorrect.

The next step from nationalism is just as vapid, abstract and meaningless.

Daily reminder to newfags/atheists/m*rxists
Delve into:
Platonism,neo-platonism,metaphysics,gnosticism,Thomas Aquina,hermeticism,western esotericism,occultism,alchemy,goetia,theurgy,jewish kabbalism and mysticism,ceremonial magic,tarot,sigil magic,paganism,Carl Jung(best author I will mention),after Jung read Evola and Crowley,Crowley is extremely autistic and larpy but it filters the red ditors,put Evola later into the reading list,and as fantastic as he is don't end up worshiping him,he isn't perfect.
Start with the Bible if you haven't read it already

M*rx had to write a long reddit post about Stirner and it's shit,I don't relate to Stirner anymore since I delved to deep into what I mentioned above.

One common point M*rxists use is that porky created identity politics as a distraction
>150. As we mentioned in paragraph 134, industrial society seems likely to be entering a period of severe stress, due in part to problems of human behavior and in part to economic and environmental problems. And a considerable proportion of the system’s economic and environmental problems result from the way human beings behave. Alienation, low self-esteem, depression, hostility, rebellion; children who won’t study, youth gangs, illegal drug use, rape, child abuse, other crimes, unsafe sex, teen pregnancy, population growth, political corruption, race hatred, ethnic rivalry, bitter ideological conflict (e.g., pro-choice vs. pro- life), political extremism, terrorism, sabotage, anti-government groups, hate groups. All these threaten the very survival of the system. The system will therefore be FORCED to use every practical means of controlling human behavior.
-Ted Kaczynski

>>17486196
>a kind of pan-europeanism
Vague enough to say I agree,based

The nation is a tie between language, culture, race, ethnicity, and sovereign. It is an effective collective unifier with some power but it is ultimately a tool and social construct that can be abused as is often the case or used for constructive ends to build up the nation

>>17485844
I like the place I live. I want the place I live to be the best it can be. That's where Nationalism comes in. Never heard a good argument against it.

Nationalism is a modernist invention, and is now mostly employed by cynical politicians and failed cringelords. Localism has always been the better alternative, as it allows for governance without throwing tardfits at some other country over their flag having a different color. Also, I would like to state once again that the modern day nationalist, especially from America, is a complete and deep cringelord, who spouts nonsensical bullshit about EVROPA and thinks that every EVROPEAN is a monk who lives in a castle

some days i want tacos, other days i want lasgna. under nationalism, i couldn't have both. thus, nationalism is a spook because it goes against my self-interests.

>>17485864
Ah, there he is, a man of culture. So sweet to know these people still are.

Indeed the nations were but the first stage of the Modern rocket and will soon get erased by the planetary Globohomo Nation, just like they had erased to local autonomy stealing everything of value to the bureaucratic capitol. This obsession with uniformity, centralization and omnipresent totalist control will only accelerate.

>>17485862
>shit explosively
>empties his bowels in a cataclysm of diarrhea
>n-no other m-merits! he whimpers on
>as the shopowners beat his debts money out of him and the soldiers prepare him his next round of castor oil
>y-you are all of you beneath me! filthy p-produvtuve members of society how dare you be proud of being p-productive and of everything y-you built over generations!
>that he would have said
>but his bowels were still quacking with animal strenght
>women came to ask the people what was going on, a wealthy carpenter and forniture buildre answered them respectfully while smiling and pointing finger at him
>they stepped on his dick and spit on his face and at the height of his deserved humiliation he came as he continued crying and emptying his bowels
>then the soldiers were ready to give him his next round of castor oil
"if you don't open your mouth and gulp it down all nice, we break your jaw"
he did what he was told
everyone laughed again.

>>17486160
>Nationalism is self defeating in the modern world; it very simply can't and won't take hold. Just like communism. Couldn't care less how great it sounds, it's an anachronism and it's never going to happen. Globalism, however, can and does happen. And it's the easiest tool we can reach for to disrupt unrelenting particularism. Start with globalism and then build off of that. Nationalism is infinitely more odious than globalism, and the most unfortunate aspect of globalism (blanda upp between all the nations) is highly unlikely to arise. France and Germany aren't going to start launching artillery shells at each other if they become more globalist.
Do you see?

>>17485863
God created the nation's and put angels to preside over them. you simply confuse nations with governments and borders. The nation is the people and the culture.

>>17485864
this. i'm not sure if nationalism even exists anymore. i think it serves to sell you flags and once a year the elites like to see you dance and pound your chest and fire off some fireworks (responsibly.)

>>17487635
>tuba plays while anon gets his mom to fetch him some pizza rolls

What is a nation? It seems to vary. What is a nation built on?

>>17487684
my mom would love to get me pizza rolls, yours probably doesn't even love you.

>>17485844
I support nationalism because it will lead to bickering and wars and because its the only ideology that both appeals to the masses and which has the potential to save a lot of art and culture.

>>17487704
>tuba plays on

>>17487710
I love the tuba, so that's nice.
continue shitting yourself for my amusement.

nationalism destroys all that's good about nations. it was originally a jew op to bump off the aristocracy, it's proto-globalism and for smaller nations it turns the people into jews, perpetually whining about mean stuff the bigger nations did to them historically. the nationalist personality-wise is loathesome, bigoted, obnoxious, a pestilence.

A culture or national spirit of a particular time period cannot be preserved forever. It must develop and evolve. It is an everchanging organism. Nationalists seek to go back in time or restore something that is already lost that they cannot truly fully recreate beyond an artificial state

>>17485844

It doesn't matter
Everybody is allegiant to something powerful
There's always nationalism it's just about what nation you belong to

>>17486113
>Woman isn’t a spook/concept.
So what the fuck constitutes a spook then? Is it completely arbitrary?

>>17487825
yes it is she just concocted an ideology to be a bitch on the internet and shit-test high test males.
In her dreams, she's being fucked by a fascist while she moans about him being a bootlicker, before being made to lick his boots herself.

>>17485844
I love my country and I want to see it flourish, anyone who disagrees is gay.

>>17487902
here you go.

>>17485844
Politics is religion for people without religion.
Countries come and go but God is eternal.

>>17485864
>nationalism is so bad guise!!!!1!!!!
>we should go back to living like hobbits in mud-huts because it's trad
Get fucked localist. I hope your faggy village gets burnt to the ground. You can't stop progress.

>>17487684
Blatant projection

Eustace Bagge is all to based.

>>17485844
My group of people is ideologically and culturally distinct from other groups of people. Because our superiority causes controversy, other different groups of people don't like my group.

>>17485862
Is this guy really a famous philosophers ? He seems like a retard. There is absolutely no reason at all you cannot be both proud of yourself AND your nation. Well thanks for the quote at least I know a philosopher I can safely ignore to focus on better ones.

>>17485863
If nations were not real they would need to be invented anyway.

A nation is a tribe of people based around a shared geographical location, language, culture, and identity

>>17488083
your progress is social entropy and the progress to the grave
we will survive to your destruction and rebuild.

>>17485844
Nations allow for improvement and redundancy for humanity at large which also benefits the individual.

I mean imagine a world were people just left their nation because they couldn't fix there problems, then created new problems by not assimilating into their new nation? This unrest would circle the world slowly getting worse over many generations till you had conflicts and resource misuse on all levels and no where left to flee. At which point those small problems centuries ago had grown to insurmountable issues that threaten humanity itself as not enough people stood firm to fix them, and those that did were over run by migrants seeking more. It would get so bad that the idea of value itself would get detached from common means of value as nobody could agree on what value even was on the most basic levels. Add better transportation so people could keep fleeing from their problems in more sophisticated ways, leaving larger and larger devastation in their wake. In the end were do we run when the world is burning?

oh, wait that's basically what we have now when the richest lands can become the poorest before our elders have even died. Such madness is like that of anarchy and lawlessness, but even with the fire of anarchy the barbarism subsides as people can't sustain endless battles to take resources. Yet endless migration to take resources is seen as some kind of virtue that never stops.

I am all for learning from each other and tolerance of others, but something must maintain our diversity lest we all blur into a blob with no structure. That something which helps give us form is is our national identity.

>>17488107
>Is this guy really a famous philosophers
>He seems like a retard.
There is absolutely no reason at all you cannot be both proud of yourself AND your nation.
Please, I beg you, if this isn't bait - consider suicide.

>>17485862
fpbp

An interchangrable global world sounds kinda boring desu, id assume most everyone would just want to live in the warmish places. Like if ypu bitch about nationalism killing culture and language globalism will probably make that look like a fucking joke.

https://youtu.be/jQLPQrk6nZo

>>17488359
it's not bait shopenauer did do a goof in there with that absurd and hominem.

>>17488265
>>tax to provide services to citizens
>>other state offers no taxes and slave labor
>>be angry at the state that offers services to citizens, not the shitty state undercutting it.
Pottery. Even more wild the types that do immediately turn around and bitch about immigrants.

>>17489094
ok, except the good state isn't providing services it's robbing everyone

>noooo you can't just have an extended family as the basis for statehood
>noooo you can't just let anyone who wants to contribute be made a citizen

>>17488945
interesting, but I think there are two other major ways on how to derive that.
1. Historical grouping
2. Idealistic grouping
3. Legal grouping (often legal citizenship)

>>17485844
I find discussing this hard as people take extreme views and refuse to even consider alternatives. For example say you have an idea on how people should live and you define this, not by real historical actions but by new ideal actions that one should work towards even if it can't be done. If you and many others group around such an idea, then it would have some legitimacy even if only in the minds of the followers.

For example a group rallies around the idea that they will not follow the king. Thus they have created a new nation based on the idea that they will not have a king. People may dismiss this as lacking legal or historical merit, but in a few short years that idea can grow to meet such definitions. So to ignore the ideas seems foolish even if they are not universally defined, as the group could still debate as to what replaces the king so some may not see them as unified. But such cases are dismissed not as ideas, but as a means to an end, ie get rid of the king.

Then what of people having unrealistically ideas that have real actions. One simple idea is that there should be no murder. Many agree with this idea, we even have built structures to enforce it, yet murder still happens. Does this show that the idea is worthless given it has no wide historical base or proof that is can be done, no because the idea is idealistic.

If a nation is merely a new version of tribalism, then it ignores all the other means of identification which allow for more complex systems. Thus I submit that it can grow from any of these, but become more defined once it has all three parts.

1. Historical grouping (has a history of action, with some kind of real world impact)
2. Idealistic grouping (has an idea that is commonly agreed on)
3. Legal grouping (can define itself in some limiting sense so boundaries can be made)

future more the such nationalism is not good or bad, but how it acts to reflect the nation is. Nations can send aid and help people, just as they can declare war and genocide. The declaration of an identity is has no morality, else both the included and excluded would be judge equally as the hold identities formed by the same boundaries.

>>17487825
Read the damn book

>>17487833
Moron.

>>17487825
Things I don't like are spooks

>>17485864
Good to see this thread is based.

>>17485999
YWNBAW

>>17488106
A Tomokotranny actually posting something good, that's new.

>>17489094
Yes, which is why I put most of the blame on foreign governments for not making their place nicer to live in, if they did we would see far less immigration. People tend to not like moving unless there is a reason. I am also bother by the lack of effort by such immigrates who should stay and fight to fix things, but on an individual level that is often just suicide so I have some sympathies.

>>17489108
Also yes, California somehow manages to get lots of money flowing in from corporate and holding taxes who draw earnings from out of state, and get a significantly large amount from federal tax redistribution, on top of regular state taxes. All while under cutting the market coats with cheap immigrant laborers. I really would love to sit down and figure how they basically go bankrupt with such massive revenue streams flowing into them.

>>17485844

Dolphins and Space Comrades have no Nations, therefore I don't need one either.

>"Since nationalism before the 19th century doesn't follow the strict 19th century definition, it means nationalism didn't exist before the 19th century."
Quote any university professor.

>>17489479
Kinda true. Nation states were invented at the end of 19th and beginning of 20th century

>>17485862
ad hominem

>>17489655
Nation states by the definition of the 19th century.

What about the medieval Icelandic republic, or the medieval kingdom of Norway etc.? Even conglomerate states like the Oldenburg dynasty in Denmark-Norway-Sleswig was a collection of separate nations with their own laws and assemblies, just with a common sovereign. National identity and it's political representation existed all over Europe. On Iberia each nation had its cortes, Aragon, Castille, etc.

>>17488359
I've already considered suicide a long time ago and I figured it's not very interesting. Have you? It seems like it could be more interesting than your life.

>>17489855
>Have you? It seems like it could be more interesting than your life.
#BURN

>>17487630
No. There are effectual nationalist movements all over the world.

The more I interact with right wingers, the more I believe society has an obligation to ruthlessly mock and ridicule their beliefs

>>17490569
the more i interact with filthy pr*les, the more i believe society has an obligation to ruthlessly mock and ridicule their beliefs

>>17490743
You probably still live with your mom

>>17485844
you faggot, issue is economical

>>17485882
like that's ever gonna happen

>>17485883
>believes IQ matters
>calls nationalists dumb

>>17485844
What was the name of that TV show? I remember watching it as a kid but its name eludes me.

>>17491116
courage the cowardly dog

Any society or state needs some sort of unifier. Nationalism is probably the most effective one

>>17485844
People of the same ethnic group are effectively an extended kin group. The ethnic-nation is the largest denomination of the kin group. There is nothing abnormal about advocating for the betterment of your extended kin group ie. seeking to better your gene pool.

>>17489672
ad hominem my dick you retard

>>17485844
>>17485862
AD HOMINEMMMMMMMMMM

>>17488107
He's not saying you can't be proud of it; he just doesn't see the value of it. People that are proud of their nation are often just idiots who have no achievement of their own, and must latch onto nationalism because they are Untermensch incapable of making something that would make people proud of them.

>>17485863
Are you arguing abstract ideas have no utility or what kind of argument are you trying to make?

>>17485883
If IQ is important would it not make sense to guard against importing people of low IQ into ones own group?
The idea of nation could be useful to set up imaginary lines for that enterprise, saying to others "here our rules are to be followed."

>>17485999
>nations are unstable and when they collapse violence ensues so let's collapse all nations and replace them with something else not yet defined, this will surely bring peace and prosperity.
>I'm a girl BTW

If you wish to abolish nationalism, you must abolish the state itself. Otherwise the state will cling to something else to give it legitimacy. Since nationalism is often rooted in visible markers like race or things like cultural traditions, it is a potent force that resonates with people and encourages them to rally around the state or feel a part of it if the state can say "we represent your people, your culture, and people who look like you/your family". If nationalism is gone, the state will just hop on king or religion instead and serve a similar function. Our responsibility is not just smashing the nation, but religion, authority, and state in general.

>>17487706
What if bickering and war is the way to the stars and globalism is the is the way to eternal subjugation by every stronger elites?

>>17491648
>If you wish to abolish nationalism, you must abolish the state itself.
No you don’t, you just scale it down.

By the way, this black-and-white autism is typical for nationalists

>>17491554
>He's not saying you can't be proud of it; he just doesn't see the value of it.
Being proud of your nation allows an actor to defend the nation against attack even when this would seem to not be the most logical or beneficial action for the actor.
If many people act this way the entity called a nation will be able to face threats that would destroy other similar entities not defended the same way and as a consequence benefits all that remain in the nation. Knowing the people is willing to defend the nation, even against bad odds, will also reduce the risk of conquest, see Afghanistan for a modern example.

>>17485844
What I have is relatively simple, but I hope it works. While the conditions for nation-forming are muddy and highly unspecific, it's not even debatable that nations do exist. When thinking about the politics as a zero-sum game between groups, it becomes obvious that the biggest possible group that manages to maintain stability is the most desired and from historical material you can easily gather that multinational empires had a tendency to spontaneously combust, while nations survived even under their boot(and with open intention of assimilating them), in fact quite a few of such states have been destroyed because of internal rivalry between the nations inhabiting them. Therefore, whatever constitutes a perfect definition "nation" is irrelevant, you just know one when you see it, it seems to be still the most optimal grouping you can use to navigate politics.

>>17491669
I am not a nationalist, I am a anarcho communist who believes in no states, no rule over me, and the liberation of the worker

>>17491731
Do you know about game theory?
If so please explain how following anarcho-communism is the best way ost beneficial action for all and I'll make it easy for you and you can assume logical actors and a global anarcho-communist revolution.

There are objects in the world which exist independently from human perception or experience of them. The world is not created solely by humans observing it and constructing a reality, but rather innate intrinsic properties which we make sense of. The innate human differences between different geographical groupings and tribes are not human inventions, but an existing phenomenon that humans assigned a category to in order to make sense of it. The idea and category of 'nation' was created by humans, but to describe intrinsic traits that were observed. Nationalism is a reflection of the difference between groups of humans rooted in nature.

>>17491769
Decentralized autonomous communes that spawn organically rather than enforced hegemonically will better serve the interests of humanity because it will achieve true freedom. People will be free to associate with who they wish, according to the principles they wish, and have complete control over the fruits of their labor and destiny.

>>17491789
How is nationalism innate in humans? These differences are superficial and based on human creation, not an objective reality.

>>17491814
>Decentralized autonomous communes that spawn organically rather than enforced hegemonically will better serve the interests of humanity because it will achieve true freedom.
Why is benefiting humanity relevant? What mechanisms are built in to stop selfish actors from strong arming the communes with threats of violence and actual violence?

>>17491789
>geographical groupings
Geography is a social construct though, there is no objective line or border that separates one nation from another. It's all arbitrary. The differences are superficial human constructs. Even skin color does not separate human beings as a species innately, the difference of skin color is assigned and constructed by society. We are all the same species of human beings with the same way of thinking, behavior, etc innately, but we are then shaped by human constructs of culture, geography, nation, civilization, race, etc. which are employed by states and authoritarian regimes to differentiate us. If there were no constructs though and we just were in the wild behaving innately, it wouldnt matter the skin color, we would all behave primitively.

>>17491853
>there is no objective line or border that separates one nation from another.

Islands say otherwise.

>>17491853
mountain, rivers, oceans, shallow seas, swamps, lakes such as the Great lakes between Canada and USA...
geography lets people develop separately.
A good example is Cornwall, just a tiny river has created a millennia long ethnic and cultural separation between two regions otherwise absolutely equivalent geographically.
Then a bureaucrat arrives and decides to govern the two sides in the same way.
Needles to say hilarity ensues.

>>17491554
litteraly citation needed.

>>17491648
what about you don't take the route that results in hundreds milions of dead people instead?

>>17485844
My nation is my people, liberal suits can hand out citizenships like candy and it does not change. They are not part of the nation and never will be.

What argument is needed to care for your own people?

>>17492545
>m-muh people
the absolute state of the right

For: Many people often benefit from a higher cause. Nationalism is one such cause that is available to a person even more fundamentally than a religion because one gains nationality simply through accident of birth, not through any process of initiation. One can uplink with the nation's history, aims, and problems, making them your own. Nationalism is freely available, open to anyone with no other qualifications than that they were born from parents who were nationals. The interests of a nation are usually clear and manifest; there is no ambiguity as to what must be upheld, glorified, and fortified.

Against: Nationalism is a primitive relation. It has no need of individual thought, criticism, differing perspectives. All must be subordinate to it. It is de-individualizing. Nationalism is often the mask worn by obscured power using it as a pretext to advance its private goals. Nationalism cannot see past itself, it is confined by its limited assumption that the nation is the ultimate unit of social importance.

>>17485844
Nationalism is a simplistic ideology that discourages individualism and encourages subordination to the state. It is an ideology that often goes hand in hand with regressive conservatism, propaganda, denial of inconvenient truths against their ideology, and authoritarianism. It is based on a simplistic feeling of hate against the other based on superficial differences rather than encouraging prosperity, truth seeking, unity of man, intellectual exploration, rationality, peace, human self actualization or individual expression. Nationalism should not be the center focus of a state or society, because it will inevitably led to a society centered around narrow thinking, bigotry, conformism, groupthink, and identity politics. Socialism is an ideology about liberation of man, workers of the world uniting, class struggle and unity of the workers. Socialism is about encouraging the worker to receive the fruits of his labor and be free of subordination to capital. It's fundamentally different from nationalism which is built on nothing but hate, fear, ignorance, otherness and manipulation.

>>17492736
This ignores the benefits of nationalism and the cohesion, structure, unity of the group, feeling of belonging, and pragmatic purposes it can possibly serve to advance the capabilities of a country and the well being of the society.

>>17492910
There are more constructive things to rally around that are less likely to devolve into hatred or are built on necessary ignorance, conformism, and oppression of another ethnic or racial group as is often the case with nationalists. The only value I could see nationalism having is in the context of a peoples being colonized or literally enslaved by an imperialist power enforcing the nationalist doctrine onto them and using nationalist ideas to justify atrocities against non western countries, then used made up borders such as in Africa to consolidate imperialist enslavement rule around a population. The nation state is a 19th century Western construction that the West imposed on the world through imperialism and colonialism, so nationalism in the context of the so called "3rd world" new nation states constructed by and for the benefit of the Eurocentric world order freeing themselves from this enslavement by the European empires is the one justifiable one not built on pure hatred but rather liberation that I can think of. National Socialism of Germany or American white nationalism/MAGA nationalism are examples of Western nationalism built on power, subjugation, hate, otherness, fear, ignorance, and denial of truths.

>>17492987
>National Socialism of Germany or American white nationalism/MAGA nationalism are examples of Western nationalism built on power, subjugation, hate, otherness, fear, ignorance, and denial of truths.

>>17492995
The black nationalist movement or sort of Black Power, identity liberation movement in America is one built more on freeing themselves from the yoke of oppression and desire to have sovereignty over their own affairs rather than being subjected to an oppressive system built against them for the benefit of the dominant class in a quasi caste system. White nationalism is pride in maintaining that dominant relationship and reverting the progress made at making that system fairer for all peoples in the country rather than just European White immigrants.

>>17485844
Don't know any. I like my nation and I support my nation. Simple as.

>>17493009
>>17492987
>>17492736
>white nationalism bad most evil thing in the world goy
>black nationalism good its about peace and liberation bro
gold medal mental gymnastics

>>17493074
It's not mental gymnastics. The material circumstances and historical factors, power dynamics, etc are completely different, the purpose is different.

>>17493085
lol fuck off

>>17493085
How? It's still nationalist or racial tribalism

>>17485844
>>>/his/

>>17493085
>My Tribe, good
>Your Tribe, bad

>>17491071
No contradiction here

>>17493658
No, the argument is that white nationalism in the US/Europe, Nazism in Germany, etc are built on maintaining a racial caste system where minorities are oppressed for the benefit of the white race and taking pride in that subjugation of minorities. The black nationalist movement is about freeing themselves and becoming independent from their position as an exploited minority by whites under their racist system.

>>17493698
>No, the argument is that white nationalism in the US/Europe, Nazism in Germany, etc are built on maintaining a racial caste system where minorities are oppressed for the benefit of the white race and taking pride in that subjugation of minorities.
>etc are built on maintaining a racial caste system where minorities are oppressed
Implying
>for the benefit of the white race and taking pride
Implying
>Go to a Homeland of a different People than your own.
>Oy vey everything here benefits them!

>>17493782
But white people chose to bring black slaves to America and colonize non white countries and attempted impose their civilization's values and desired world order onto them

>>17491769
Game theory is built upon the mistaken assumption that human beings are sociopaths. It's hyper-paranoia translated into mathematics.

>>17493805
That doesn't apply to every single white country or person, and if pride in one race is acceptable than it should be acceptable for all.

>>17493817
The fact that game theory brought us the absolute evil of M.A.D. is proof enough that it is deranged. Yeah, let's allow the political class to collectively hold the world hostage with a doomsday device. GOOD THINKING.

>>17493698
>a movement that wants to get rid of minorities actually wants to subjugate them
These movements are literally trying to eliminate a racial caste system. Your analysis of them is irreconcilable

>>17493819
TF you have to be "proud" enough?
Like you're a pioneer of Western culture?
Bullshit. You're an ignorant piece of shit whose entire identity is based on /pol/tard memes.

>>17493832
How will they get rid of them? Genocide, concentration camps, or removal. They may also extract their wealth through imperialism. That is oppression and subjugation.

>>17493843
I am proud of my accomplishments, and I am proud to be European. I don't see a problem with this. You are insecure and an angry little man, a rootless leftist who plays radical but serves his corporate masters.

>>17493853
What are you accomplishments?

>>17493843
So only pioneers of western culture can be proud of it? So great man theory is real when you want to make a bad faith argument of who can and cant be proud of whatever they want?

>>17493845
>How will they get rid of them? Genocide, concentration camps, or removal. They may also extract their wealth through imperialism. That is oppression and subjugation.
But Race is a Social Construct, if they identify as White, then there is no Opression.no Hate Crimes; Calling someone a Nigger would only be Verbal Abuse at most, not a Hate Crime, because then a Nigger wouldn't be a Racial Classification, but a Person, an Ameican Citizen.

>>17491636
>and when they collapse violence ensues
No, they’re violent for their whole history
> replace them with something else not yet defined
We define it as a non-state. With all free people in charge of their own lives, we would see the strongest society ever seen. This will end mass warfare and income inequality. Mmkay?

>>17488120
Where do you find this? Travel to all of these non-countries in Europe: Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, UK. Tiny pieces of land and yet no one seems to like each other or to recognize themselves into their "countrymen".

>>17485844
If a people have no sense of pride in themselves why work to maintain the system at all? If we aren't "Americans" then why care about America? Anti-nationalism is only ever supported by countries who have a lot to lose from people they conquered wanting independence again. There are extreme cases but in general nationalism is a good thing.

>>17485862
Of course some old white guy from the past would be saying that considering his people want to quash anyone else's nationalism. Spoiled pricks form yesteryear don't impress me in this debate.

>>17485844
>Give me your best philosophical arguments in favor of or against nationalism.
The combination of the egoism from The Ethics by Spinoza and the nature of biological life as portrayed in Darwin’s On the Origin of Species
>>17485862
It’s true that you’re a retard if you feel pride from your nationality. It’s also true that if you don’t act in your peoples interests that you’re also a retard

>>17485882
I would rather we all balkanize into mad max then see a one world government. I can literally not think of a worse fate for our species than bowing before some global state that destroys anything worth caring about in the human race. Extermination is preferable.

>>17494095
I actually enjoy the concept of constant revolution and balkanization, we should either go to the stars and balkanize or just do it here in an endless cycle forever. That is the perfect fate for humanity.

>>17485999
>They’re spooks, held together with lies and violence.
>They’re unstable. Always collapsing in ever dangerous conflagrations.
>They’re odious. The elite few are rarely ever deserving of the riches, the majority are forced into poverty and ignorance.
Butterfly, you aren’t just describing a nation, you’re describing any insular group of people numbering over about 100 individuals, beyond 100 people a society of any size will show all those traits

>>17493845
"or removal", aka deportation, how sinister

>>17485844
>against nationalism.

Daddy Trudeau would have me believe I have the same interest as fucking Ontarians, while the rest of my country hates my people's guts for using the system Anglos set up to funnel wealth out of *all of our territories* against them.
Oh and fucking drowning us in Hindus.

>>17494114
Being close minded, insular and violent is bad no matter how many members there to your club.
Large hulking types that want to consolidate the smaller ones so they can have ever larger conflagrations are clearly worse.
Hey, let’s do something else for a fucking change. Go ahead anon. Put statism on trial. They’re why we’re this way.

without a real, almost spiritual nationalism, people will destroy themselves, its inevitable, just look around you and you will see its already happened across the western world. people fear nationalism because they are told it has extreme motivational power and can push people to do bad things, but that sword cuts both ways and it can also motivate people to do better too, pressure people to exercise strength of will and hold themselves and their communities together instead of being lost and isolated in self destructed nihilism. that kind of unity is a force to be reckoned with, and will also push people to stand up for themselves and each other, something most democratic anti-nationalist capitalists fear. having nationalism is thus objectively infinitely better than the alternative

>>17494289
I'm always amazed at the kinds of arguments cowardly morons find convincing.

>>17494289
You out yourself as a nihilist who has no real values, and so you desperately scramble for whatever big, powerful seeming thing calls to your insecurities.

>>17494305
such a horrible argument that it literally cannot be refuted

>>17494310
how so? admitting that nihilism exists and spreads like a disease that tears people apart does not mean I am a nihilist myself

>>17494314
There is no argument, only projected feelings, and dem feelings is rotten.

>>17494322
What you really mean is "without a real, almost spiritual nationalism, I will destroy myself." This is true, correct?

>>17494338
lol damn bro you getting butthurt about it and trying to insult me has definitely absolutely refuted and destroyed my beliefs on this subject. i kneel

>>17494346
I mean if this statement is true of _people_, it's certainly true for you as a person, right?
Without your spiritual nationalism, you'd be destroyed, left without purpose or meaning. You need it so desperately that your life depends on it.

>>17494346
Yeah guess so, sorry bro I'll just keep consuming and stay atomized. Maybe post online about workers I pretend to give a shit about

>>17494289

> without a real, spiritual nationalism, nations will destroy themselves
> refers to a nation that destroyed itself by adopting a "real, spiritual nationalism"

Kek.

>>17494346
if nihilism is a philosophy purporting the meaninglessness of existence then sure, anyone who cannot find meaning is a nihilist, including me if I fell into that category, which I dont

>>17494381
I love how you had to change my words specifically to make this point work lol, why so desperate?

>>17494372
What's wrong? Aren't you confident that your values can stand up to the greatest scrutiny?
What are your values, anyways?

>>17494392
What do you find meaningful besides resigning your personal responsibility to an autocratic regime?

>>17494392
>change my words

Them the same words baka.

>>17494401
bettering myself and enabling others to do the same in order to create a healthy functional society where communities and individuals exist in a symbiotic relationship that ultimately helps everyone live better lives on an individual level and communities to develop and literally/metaphorically "reach of the stars" on a collective level

>>17494412
there is quite literally different words with different meanings

>>17485844
>Give me your best philosophical arguments in favor of or against nationalism.

>What you of the CHOAM directorate seem unable to understand is that you seldom find real loyalties in commerce. When did you last hear of a clerk giving his life for the company?
>Perhaps your deficiency rests in the false assumption that you can order men to think and cooperate. This has been a failure of everything from religions to general staffs throughout history. General staffs have a long record of destroying their own nations. As to religions, I recommend a rereading of Thomas Aquinas. As to you of CHOAM, what nonsense you believe! Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends on the quality of the individuals it produces.

>If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness—they cannot work and their civilization collapses.
>A letter to CHOAM
>Attributed to The Preacher

>>17494461
>there is quite literally different words with different meanings

>>17494289
>without a real, almost spiritual nationalism, people will destroy themselves, its inevitable
>>17494381
>without a real, spiritual nationalism, nations will destroy themselves

>>17485844

>>17494396
Honestly? Can't say, I'm not far enough into life to name any concrete. I doubt it's easy for almost anyone to hold up their values to intense scrutiny.

>>17485844
Good in moderation, not necessarily the Nationalist concept that had to be defined for Globalism to be a thing in the first place, but good in the prospect that the nation must be recognized as it's own entity and 'individual' among others; in short that Nationalism as a prospect should manifest in the way of borders and perhaps some patriotism when the State which forms one of the pillars of a Nation, the other being the main over and distributive/regionalistic subcultures of a given people/geographic area, is worthy of praise. Without the institution of borders and national sovereignty the other pillar of a cultural identity crumbles fucking hard, or is pushed out by other cultures.
The role of the State is, if it is to be the brain of a body of organs, to minister the Nation and to minister it well, with degrees of authority. However, this is not to say that all other organs of the nation should be utterly beholden or enthralled to the 'lowercase' state, for if the brain is not a conscious and well mended steward of the body, then does the body not rebel in it's own way? Thus there must be a constitution of purpose, but this is another matter entirely.
Effectively, as others have said, regionalism and localism bound up in the corpus of a Federal, sovereign entity, that is administrator and representative abroad is best, though I believe it a matter out of hand that the world at large should not be ignored or left unaided, it is of great import, perhaps above the world at large at times, that the people of a given nation within it's borders, and those who are it's citizens living and contributed to the given culture, should be looked after in the first place.

>>17485999
>>17494193
>>17494010
Was /lit/ not enough for you, Butters? Must you desecrate this ground as well with your footsteps

>>17494620
Wait, this isn't /co/

>>17494484
yes I used the word "people" as in "individuals" because i was referring to individual lifestyles, the statement meaning to say that individuals who are aimless are much more susceptible to falling into self destructive patterns of behavior that provide some sort of gratification in order to compensate. no nation or individual is ever guaranteed perpetual existence even if they make all the right choices but it certainly does not hurt to do your best

>>17494634
for what its worth she did start using her trip on other boards

Despite what redditors and other assorted faggots will tell you. Nationalism is a vital part of any functioning society.

>>17494500
>I doubt it's easy for almost anyone to hold up their values to intense scrutiny.
People who care about their values hold them up to intense scrutiny themselves, taking responsibility for the self-determination of their values.
Quite frankly it sounds like you're just looking for a fash food restaurant to serve you up some easy to digest McValue to free yourself of the responsibility of self-critical thought.

>>17489855
>I've already considered suicide a long time ago and I figured it's not very interesting.
Reconsider. You're a bane to society.

>>17489293
>Read the damn book
I'd rather not read fucking Stirner you bitch.

>>17494144
Yes, it is actually.

>>17492736
I'm sorry, but that quote was made by a Zionist supremacist, who was in favor of Jewish identity whilst at the same time denying it to gentiles.
There is a book written by a guy name MacDonald in the year 1998 that does an analysis through evolutionary psychology to describe this type of behavior.

>>17493817
>Game theory is built upon the mistaken assumption that human beings are sociopath
Incorrect, it simply shows how what equilibrium specific systems will reach, no matter if people abuse them willingly or not.

It's very relevant to show how situations will be balanced long term.
Even if no one willingly abuses the system people will reach an equilibrium that game theory shows and if that equilibrium means the system is subverted that system will never work long term.
It shows why modern politicians in democracies work for votes and their own benefit and not for the people. It shows why no politicians go against the status quo too much. It is very valuable.

>>17487131
Makes perfect sense. Other arguments are mental masturbation.

>>17485844
Nationalism and Patriotism are concepts that have been muddled and mixed. There's nothing wrong with having a sense of pride and respect for a nation that has treated you well, and given you more freedoms and liberties than say, a neighboring nation. A sense of pride that your country has done better for you than they would have. (This doesn't mean that Nationalism is directly involved with xenophobia or Imperialism nessesarily, but historically they've obviously gone hand in hand regardless.)
But anyone who has any pride in, or loves rather, a country has to understand that you cannot (with anything) love something if you cannot accept its flaws and failings. If you would rather ignore your countries missgivings and hush naysayers than argue against these principles and fight for better ones, how can you really say you love a country, or the people in it? Why would you love a country that does not do well for you? A lot of people ask that question nowadays, as most world-power countries get more openly hostile towards their questioning/dissenting citizens, and its why most people disregard the concept of nationalism as completely retarded.

>>17494104
>>17494113
Hell yeah brother

>>17495480
>Nationalism and Patriotism are concepts that have been muddled and mixed.
This is critical. When a normal person hears "nationalism" it's interpreted in two ways: the patriotism you excellently broke down in your post, or racism-lite with extra zealotry.

>>17494104
global power is going to happen whether we go mad max along the way or not. all we have the power to do is make things shitty or good.

>>17494289
Well said. Specifically ethnonationalism, as the true telos of the state is to promote the interests of the ethnos that built it... When that purpose is forgotten, all kinds of insane new avenues of corruption open up.

>>17492910
>the cohesion, structure, unity of the group, feeling of belonging, and pragmatic purposes it can possibly serve to advance the capabilities of a country and the well being of the society
Are not inherent to nationalism proper, because we obviously had them for the entirety of history before XIX century romanticist nation-states.
To think of it, to no -ism, -ism is a Modern false consciousness. If a variety of local cultures (think Provencal, Arpitan, Picardian, Breton, Norman, Gascon etc) can be forced at gunpoint to level themselves to an arbitrary norm (Ile-de-France aka French) because reasons, the resulting nations can be levelled down to some 'European Standard' and further into some globohomo mush for the very same reasons.

>>17493658
Yes.

>>17485863
realness is not real.

there's no such thing as society so there can't be nationalism, nor can there be localism, or village-ism, or even street-ism, because i don't know and don't care about my next door neighbors, they're enemies if anything, let alone people further detached from my life.

>>17485844
The only thing I can say to this is that it's very easy to lose national pride when the ones in your country who are most rabid at promoting nationalism are either hateful morons or people in power trying to hide their criminal activity, either way bringing the country down to its knees and inspiring young people to move out in big numbers, in search of better life and employment.

>>17496108
the perfect liberal completely atomized and rendered an abject slave.

>>17496183
nothing i said makes me a liberal

>>17496275
everything you say makes you the end product of liberal social engineering.

>>17496283
are you kidding? i've lived my entire life under nanny state communitarianism that forced fake society and unity down my throat. i'm currently locked in my home because the government has vowed not to let us out until people no longer catch the cold. i get told online that the ruling class push individualism but all i see is the herd (i.e. muh nation as extended family).

It doesn't make much sense for one football team in the Super Bowl to think it isn't better than the other team. Why should things be different between Athenians and Spartans?

>>17496299
I wouldn't really compare the two.
Football teams take out their anger on the field and are actually quite friendly to each other outside. There are no consequences for anyone but the teams themselves, and even those are just relatively minor injuries and perhaps loss of a sponsor.
When Athenians and Spartans think of themselves better than the other, it leads to conflicts (especially among youth) that can grow into a war, leaving a lot of death and destruction.

>>17496326
>When Athenians and Spartans think of themselves better than the other, it leads to conflicts (especially among youth) that can grow into a war, leaving a lot of death and destruction.
Good things can come from war as well. War is not necessarily a bad thing.

>>17496392
On a political level and only if those that come are not even worse, but on the level of ordinary people - they will never see anything good in being chased out of their homes, beaten, raped, killed, their possessions forcibly taken, losing the things they identified with...

>>17496402
Just don’t be on the losing side.

>>17486041
>>17487686
Nationalism is a system/idea where people of common origin (a tribe) rule themselves. Common here means mostly ethnicity but can also include language, religion, culture but these are secondary to ethnicity. This is the polar opposite to Imperialism where one people (or a rootless hegemon/tyrant) rules over multiple other "lesser" peoples. Not to be confused with a confederation where several people (tribes) work together in a singular state.
>>17485844
It is the only just system in existence.
>>17485862
>nationalism is about pride
retard detected, "national pride" is but a secondary "effect" of nationalism.
>>17485863
how is anything real if our eyes aren't real...
>>17487541
what/ who is stopping you from eating whatever you want? take your meds please.
>>17487750
nothing to do with nationalism

>>17496326
>leaving a lot of death and destruction.
Well, we live in a world of limited resources. Ants and grasshoppers have different philosophies. When the population of one runs out of resources, it can either start killing itself or steal resources from an inferior group. Nationalism is a mindset that helps a society survive on a merciless planet.

>>17496462
If you look at science, you'll notice people have potential to overcome the problem of limited resources without murdering fellow men.

>>17496447
which current countries would you consider nationalist, as opposed to imperialist or confederation(alist)

>>17496470
I'm looking at current events in the Middle East, Africa and South Americas.

>>17496510
I'm not that familiar with situation in South America to comment, but the other two seem to be quite good examples how wars, from tribal conflicts to foreign influence, leave countries underdeveloped and poor. Harsh climate can stall progress, but there is still potential, that then gets wasted.

>>17485863
laws are clearly not real. why should i care about them? i should just be allowed to do whatever i want.

>>17496298
an all this time did they encourage or disenciutage your actual natural loyalties to your family and your actual extended family? Do they say to call your mom or do they say to move in another country to find work? do they say to study and respect your history or to forget everything and only be loyal to an abstract concept of humanity?

>>17496541
Everybody may well have potential to contribute something great, but that doesn't solve the scarcity problem. If a starving Athenian and starving Spartan both come across a small peanut on the ground while traveling, the one with low self esteem or indifference to his home isn't going to fight as hard for the peanut as the one who is proud of his country's principles and the lifestyle afforded to him by those principles.

>>17496608
no one has ever dissuaded me from developing good relations w/ family members. i've never been told to work abroad and i've never been told to either study or ignore my nation's history, though obviously there are plenty of watered down docs on tv about it

>>17496633
There are examples in Africa of people in need overcoming problems to cultivate gardens and create a more friendly environment, this is the potential I was talking about. Instead of fighting over a peanut, create a watering system and plant it so you get far more that can then get shared. People who want to solve everything with conflict often tear down good solutions to keep everyone in need of a conflict to survive.

>>17496482
A nationalist country would be a nation state ie. a state existing for that specific nation (tribe) examples would perhaps be Slovakia, Finland, Ireland even Germany (but less so). Even though minorities exist within these countries for example the Sami in Finland or the Sorbes in Germany the relation between these tribes is not that of master and slave. But calling Finland a confederation would be a stretch. It could be considered as just a fact that even in nationalist countries minorities will always exist.
An example of an Imperialist country would be Russia, (communist) China. Not because they are authoritarian countries ruled by despots but because in these countries 100s of minorities are at the mercy of the primary ruling culture in the country (russian in russia, Han chinese in china). Even though Russia is OFFICIALLY a federation the country exist to further RUSSIAN interests NOT russian AND udmurt, samoyed, chechen....etc. interests. So whilst both a nationalist and an imperialist state share some aspects, mainly the existence of a primary culture and that country existing for that specific people, it is their relation to other peoples and the size of the physical country that determines in which category the country falls in. As an example a nationalist country would not attack another in a war of conquest (unless in the case of conquering land that houses their countrymen) If a country attacks another simply for their own gain (at the expense of the other) then this is a purely Imperialist action.
A confederation is usually founded on an IDEA/ideology disregarding the nation completely. Examples would be most of the countries in the New World. which did liberate themselves from an empire but not of any nationalist sentiment but due to ideological reasons. Since they 1. at the time of their independence declarations were ethnically not THAT dissimilar of their empires main group and 2. today have largely mixed themselves beyond recognition, it is impossible to say they are nationalist due to the lack of any primary nation. India could also be considered a confederation.

>>17485844
Why should I?

>>17497130
why yes

>>17485844
>dying for the nation
>your family dies and your genes get wiped out, defeating the point of nationalism
based retard move

>>17497662
Wars are conspiracy of betas to get rid of alphas and get women for themselves.

>>17497679
truly truly I say to you:

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the Earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

>>17485844
Scarcity requires that we pick sides.

>>17497662
It's almost as if nations weren't just built out of randomly selected individuals with every generation, isn't it?

To prevent any racial and ethnic group from exercising self-determination (especially if they desire it) is genocidal.

>>17487620
why would you post this

>>17498031
I seriously hope you didn't think this was a contribution to the discussion, anon.

>>17496936
>Even though Russia is OFFICIALLY a federation the country exist to further RUSSIAN interests
You have no clue. Russia is dead since 1917, the USSR was multiculti Xtreme (and Russians paid for the aforementioned 100+ ethnicities they didn't even consider human before 1917), and the Resource Federation is a pretense at a state spread over what amount to some United Fruit Company, except it deals in ores, gas n oil.
If anything, the modern Resource Federation furthers the interests of Chechens and Tuvans because these minorities have turned into service classes of terrorists-overseers, like Gurkhas. They are about as oppressed as negroes during the BLM riots are.

>>17488128
*to the end of the cliff

>>17496675
>Science always has an answer. Growth can be infinite.
Good to know.