/lit/ - Literature

>>17456078
fucked

>>17456078
What exactly is wrong with Capitalism?

>>17456078
Is Pentti’s book good or is it just angry eco ramblings?

>>17456078
yes

>>17456174
It makes other people have more money than me and that's wrong/evil

>>17456246
Based and sincerepilled

>>17456174
it necessitates exploitation
things will be different when poorer manufacturing countries begin to improve their lot (maybe not in our lifetimes). your comfortable posting lifestyle is a historical aberration

>>17456078
Read Sorel's Reflections on Violence, Henri Bergson's Creative Evolution, Derrida's The Politics of Friendship, and Heidegger's The Question Concerning Technology. There is hope my friend.

>>17456078
>Can life prevail
It is really just a Finnish guy ranting about how mad he is about the government making drowning cats illegal. Penntti's solutions are fucking retarded.

>>17456198
Angry eco ramblings. Read one of his books and you have read them all.

>>17456174
Literally nothing. It's only marxists who can't accept living in the 21st century and think that class warfare is a serious prospect.

All real issues we face are simply a matter of enduring and inevitable technological progression.
Capitalism is the norm, all roads lead toward it; fascism and communism were rationed and reasoned delusions, desperate men with desperate ideas in a vain attempt to escape from the reality we must live in.

We're on this roller coaster. There's no getting of, whether we like it or not.

>>17456198
Just read Heidegger or Ellul, they're much better at what they do. Larpers like Linkola and Devi are not worthwhile.

>>17456283
>it necessitates exploitation
Yeah, and? Are you a faggot?
>things will be different when poorer manufacturing countries begin to improve their lot
No, they will be just as capitalistic as any other country because that's what humans are

SHITS FUCKED

We are in the good timeline. The paradigm shift is happening. People are slowly waking up to how disgustingly evil the people who rule us are. You know shit is getting serious when even normies are starting to understand how bad things are.
I can't tell you how I know we're all gonna make it, but trust me, I just know.

>>17456078
dilate

>>17456286
>Sorel's Reflections on Violence
he ltierally seethes at all the people who are suppsoed to be on his side in that book.
How is there anything optimistic in there?

>>17456346
You dummy the point of the book is that the parliamentary politics the "people on his side" were applying themselves to is useless and that one must believe in both the creative powers of violence and the proletarian warrior type. Not in some vague sense of the word warrior mind you, when you read his thoughts on the captains of industry you'll understand.

>>17456078
>bro capitalism still bad bro, I swear we´re not getting desperate!

Marxists are so funny, you had the entire 20th century to learn your lesson yet you still keep pushing forward, impressive, but pretty sad at the same time

>>17456174
Infinite human greed. Capitalism will inevitably monetize and consume all of our natural resources, turning them into waste that will kill most of the planet's life.

Also, leftwing people say the problem with Capitalism is the wealth distribution and class warfare. That line of thinking only makes it worse. It's envy combined with greed.
If everyone currently alive lived like a low-class/middle-class Americans, there literally wouldn't be enough resources on Earth for everyone. Leftwing people think they are "barely scraping by." We also have a communist society with similar eco problems (current China) so ending class conflict isn't the solution.

>>17456174
too much r-selection

>>17456501
So what they hope is universal psychological castration?

>>17456310
I’ve read Heidegger but his views aren’t quite “technology bad” like I perceive a Linkola or Kaczynzski to be.

>>17456525
Yeah I know that's the point, "technology bad" is a horrible approach. Choosing to go along the path we're going on is civilizational castration, but so is primitivist memery.

>>17456514
>psychological castration
You mean taking a firm stance against two of the seven cardinal sins, or the Eastern equivalent, ridding yourself of worldly desires.

>>17456501
>Infinite human greed. Capitalism will inevitably monetize and consume all of our natural resources, turning them into waste that will kill most of the planet's life.
Do you not know about the Great Leap Forward? How the planet got fucked over because of what the Chinese Communists did? How they completely gutted Tibet's wildlife? How they plan to drain the lakes of Tibet?

Greed manifests in every economic system. At least in Capitalism the greedy buy expensive things and that sends money back into the economy.

>>17456174
It's the natural form of commerce outside of a substance tribe in the middle of nowhere. Communist want communal living like that scene in pre-agrarian hunter-gatherers but they also want to live in a city and not work very hard.

Anarcho primitivism is the only way and complete and total nuclear winter is the only solution to society's woes

>>17456661
>Anarcho primitivism is the only way and complete and total nuclear winter is the only solution to society's woes

So much this

>>17456600
Perhaps not Capitalism, but the Industrial Revolution is the culprit. Pitting nations against each other necessitates to each of them to use up as many resources as quickly as possible. As technology increases, so does the completeness of our resource exploitation. Uncle Ted argued that the greatest threat to the Earth is not climate change, but the solution to it. If industrial society is allowed to continue then the Earth will wholly die, and the necessities of life will also disappear.

>>17456661
>>17456687
And in the meanwhile, you indulge in posting on 4chan, something that you could easily avoid doing if your boner for primitivism is that big. You guys are the equivalent of "communist" teenagers bitching about capitalism with their iPhones on Twitter. Just get rid of the technology you don't need if you dislike it that much

>>17456600
If you'd even bothered to finish reading his post he clearly says China has eco problems. Kys

>>17456174
Uninhibited growth to the point of ecological/social collapse. Growth isn't bad, but if you don't know what you are growing to or for, you end up in the shit situation we are in now.

>>17456174
Markets can create wealth never seen before but are very bad at distributing that wealth. Capitalism is good when it used to benefit the people, like a welfare state.
I also hear from leftist friends that it commodifies culture and makes it degenerate. I am not sure about that one, but it is definitely a topic which I want to get into.
>>17456246
strawman
I often hear from right-wingers that communists are just driven by greed etc. I was a communist before (don't bully:( ) and I was part of reading clubs, small orgs and nobody was driven by greed, envy. It was more of an altruistic thing to abolish the unfair system.

>>17456078
You forgot one.

>>17456336
This. Whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation. There was a time when the technological society did not exist, so its end is assured. Thinking otherwise is like believing in perpetual motion machines.

>>17456694
The industrial revolution was in turn the product of bourgeois, capitalistic thinking patterns that developed with the "Enlightenment". A pre-existing desire for wealth arose with the annihilation of spiritual thought and Church influence and drove people to innovate seeking profit

We need to return at the very minimum to a feudal, non-usuric society

>>17456174
Infinite growth is impossible but necessary for capitalism to function.

Internal contradictions such as each business wanting to cut labor costs, then when the laborers are too poor to buy the products, the market crashes every 4-7 years.

The profitability of an action should not be the only thing that determines whether that action is taken. See pollution.

Capitalism morphs people and their perceptions of themselves and their environment to become only what capital requires of them.

>>17456714

The intellectual vanguard that gets capped in the head by the first wave of their more ruthless compatriots, sure.

>>17456701
t. I am very smart

>>17456701
I love technology I just realize we need a atomic explosion in every city on earth and the complete destruction of all life with the exception of maybe 80,000 humans and some bugs. That way our progeny can I have another 20,000 years of uninterrupted peace

>>17456788
t. Mongoloid

>>17456841
>Yes bro go ahead and ruin your own life by tossing away the technology that you are dependant upon in order to survive in the modern technological society, surely that will right all the wrongs brought about by technological progress of said society and usher in golden age of cultural blooming.

>>17457017
I don't understand who you are mimicking

>>17457029
Too small brain, at least you admit it Anon.

>>17456826
Yea except then you have radiation hanging around for 10000 years

>>17456078
in the head?
A lot.
In reality?
Not at all.

>>17457017
>he believes that technology and growth can be sustained on a finite planet
If we don't choose to rid ourselves of technology, mother earth will do the job herself

>>17457037
I think you assumed I'm an anprim

>>17456714
>It was more of an altruistic thing to abolish the unfair system.
Orwell put the criticism of this mode of thought best:
Socialists don't love the poor, they just hate the rich.

>>17456078
I thought we were on a good track, but Covid really fucked things up. Especially for the strides we were making in Urbanism here in the new-world... away from suburban, car-dominated hellscapes to more wholistic cities, town, etc. Only poors will continue to use public transit now

>>17457052
>literally personification of nature as a righter of wrongs
The neomalthusian argument is as fallacious as it was under Malthus. Productivity is a thing.

>>17456174
Growth without end is the mantra of the cancer cell. You don't have to be especially astute to realize that model isn't a sustainable one.

>>17457085
>Productivity is a thing
So is diminishing marginal returns

>>17456078
wow, based books

>>17457052

That is bullshit.
We just have to wait until either the dolphins/Space Comrades are ready or World War 3 starts. Weather the storm until then. Build bunkers, create communes, train for the inevitable nuclear war. Only after it, and after workers have successfully liberated their own nuclear arsenal, can we hope to move forward.

>>17457129
Post a book that supports this theory or i will assume it is a shitpost

>>17457137

>>17456174
Not much in principle, at least when the capitalist reinvests profit in growing the business, hiring more workers, expanding production, etc. What's wrong with modern capitalism is excessive financialization and financial parasitism. The legislative event that heralded this downward spiral was the repeal of the Glass–Steagall act, which separated commercial from investment banking and tied the greed of investment bank speculators (who contribute nothing to the economy but decide the fate of whole sectors of the economy) to commercial banks.

This effectively means that whenever a hedge fund loses one of their gambling bets, their loses directly put at risk the savings of regular working people, whose money they sometimes gamble with. Necessitating government bailouts, socializing risk and privatizing profit. Leading to "socialism for the rich and rugged individualism for thee poor."

Also as capital concentrates in the hands of the few, they inevitably wear down and influence the government. The repeal of Citizens United, which allows for unlimited campaign donations, is effectively legalized bribery.

>>17456078
I used to be on the side of socialist ideals, the concept of Mazlow's hierarchy providing to everyone that which they need (food, shelter etc.)... but then I started teaching. And the more I teach, the further I grow apart from that ideology.

I had a shit life growing up. Fell into heavy neglect by my teen years. Started working to buy food/clothes. Grew up fast and realised I had to dig myself out of my troubles.

But when I teach, I see a new era of social ambivalence and nonchalance I couldn't have expected. I have kids growing up aspiring to live at home with their parents. I have kids growing up that want to be YouTubers, and have literally had some tell me they just want to claim benefits. And I realised, this is what a lack of meritocracy does to people. And I haven't quite found the firmest ground to stand upon, but I certainly no longer stand where I did; I looked back at my own life and wished I'd been provided for, but now I look forward and want those without in their life to strive to have, and I don't see how that can be conducive to a system that tells people laziness is an answer.

We're really fucked. We're so bloody fucked it's ridiculous.

>>17457186
Just to illustrate the point.
Although I think it is immoral how wealthy Jeff Bezos is, he represents good capitalism. Amazon reinvests its profits in growing its company and expanding operations. (Although this also allows them to weasel out of paying federal taxes.)

Bad capitalism is when wall street slangs subprime mortgages to a bunch of uninformed yokels trying to live the American dream and then comes crying to the government when it all goes belly up.

Perhaps in an effort to promote entrepreneurship and economic growth, perhaps because the government is mind controlled by Capital, it gives all these special protections and privileges to corporations but at best mere scraps to workers. Or at worst, and more commonly, actively undermines and disenfranchises workers.

>>17457188
>hating children so much you turn right wing from sheer resentment
based students

>>17457188
Pretty based post. Can you or anyone else tell us more zoomer horror stories?

>>17457241
There are plenty of kids that want to do well, and likewise, I want them to do well. But what we're doing is coddling people into becoming the dregs of society.

>>17456246
infant brain

When people say shit is fucked what do you actually mean. Is it going to be the slow death where things get worse for everyone but a select elite, the masses placated by consumerism from their masters, or will it be a quick downfall sparked by consecutive economic or climate disasters?

>>17457188
>I have kids growing up that want to be YouTubers

40-30 years ago those kids would have probably wanted to grow up to be TV stars. NPCs have always been a thing, and having worked with children myself, it is hard to remind yourself that some were fucked on arrival.
I won't let shitty rl NPCs drive me away from the core of my marxists beliefs, but if normie socialism nowadays leads to a complete devaluation of labor issues, then I guess I'll have to go full NazBol.

>>17456078
Depends on how attached you are to the globohomo world order. We're about to be unfucked from my perspective.

>>17457260
I've seen kids hit 14 with almost no literacy skills. But the problem is two fold, because it's not just the kids, it's the indolent and worthless Gen X parenting walking hand in hand with their dumb little spud. And it shows throughout the school too, because we have a lot of people that age, and they always try to play it as softly as possible. Weirdly enough they never get results.

So you get a kid who's had 1-to-1 work, for almost a year, that can't function in school, being patted on the back and being told WELL DONE YOU WROTE YOUR NAME. I distinctly remember being that sort of age, and thinking what utter bollocks it was that the retard brigade got away with murder and told they were good bois for it. And now, to really go full circle, I have the 40 something idiots to whom I am a subordinate telling me to enforce that as policy. Never work for women. They're wholly incompetent at almost any management role they uptake. They can't keep a level enough head to do their job properly. They get too attached to the kids they spend time with (usually the tards and the dregs through sanction process) and then give them special treatment.

We've hit peak nannydom, where I'm almost to the point of regretting ever aspiring to work myself, because I basically get fed a spoon full of shit for it. You know your work is bad when literal children make you question your life choices, but that's where we're at. The west is a lost cause until discipline becomes a thing again, and that won't happen under a socialist ideology. Then again, it won't happen under current administrations full stop - nobody wants to play a game they're guaranteed to lose, and that's where capitalism has fallen onto.

>>17457322
>NPCs have always been a thing
Yea but there is more of them. Population growth is a bitch

>>17457072
For our organization, it wasn't true we didn't hate the rich but we neither did anything to actually help the poor. For online leftists, Orwell's criticism is really spot on. I still want to believe that it is not generally true for every one of them, most of the leftists I've met were genuinely good people but they are trapped in this never-ending religious-like mindset.

>>17457322
>>17457341
It's a false comparison. The comparison you're drawing is 'people wanted to get into an extremely competitive career, that everyone knew was competitive, required special equipment, luck, and talent', to 'take your phone out, do a funny and hope it explodes'.

It's more akin to people saying "When I grow up I want to blow all my money on the lotto to win it big".

>>17456714
>Capitalism is good when it used to benefit the people, like a welfare state.

Why would you ever say welfare states are "good"? The "benefit" it provides to the people comes with the price of submission to the govt.'s whims. Even FDR was worried about what would come with welfare.

inb4 some really uninformed take regarding Nordic economies

>>17457361
>inb4 some really uninformed take regarding Nordic economies
Here i am. The Nordic model worked for a while because most of the native population never thought of it as a solution. It was a safety net that was used to get you back on your feet. Then they opened their borders to a bunch of refugees who abused the shit out of this system. To them, its just free money.

>>17457188
have you taken a minute to consider the fact that you are founding your beliefs in the judgment of children?

nearly all of them will grow up and become disaffected with the notion that they can function as adults doing absolutely nothing of value. the only people who can do that are the rich.

let's be honest, you're a reactionary. you were going to veer right no matter what.

>>17457361
I've never understood why Americans are so afraid of the state. Laissez-fair economics has never worked and will never work. There are two things that completely ruined my country the first is a communist planned economy the second was deregulated free-market policies.
The Nordic countries have an efficient single-payer health care system, free college, long parental leave, heavily subsidized child care, strong job protections, and labor markets governed by centralized union contracts.
If you want to challenge this go ahead I open to change my views.

>>17457166
Has this been refuted?

>>17457429
See >>17457401

>>17456078
>hurr system bad
Shut the fuck up and do something with your life you lazy faggot.

>>17457262
Doing well in your view means contributing to an economy mostly organized around useless production and endless consumption spurred by insane and insidious marketing. Irreparable environmental degradation that will soon kill us all, wage slavery that is currently immiserating most of us, and hellish hedonic compulsion for the 'winners' result. Being lazy is good in a sick and bloated society. Living with your parents is good, you should love them and enjoy their company, economic conditions have made the prospect of a family unrealistic for many. Being a youtuber is good, barely different in function from being a novelist. Claiming benefits is good; we do not need more production or consumption. Being provided for is good; it gives you time to actually be a human and not commodify every facet of your being to 'get ahead'. Everyone should have their basic needs met (food, housing, healthcare, and education) and work as little as possible to sustain those basics. The mindset of infinite production has already spelled collapse for many ecosystems (the whole ocean is basically fished out) and likely for human society at large (the genie is out of the bottle for feedback loops of global warming).

>>17457424
>nearly all of them will grow up and become disaffected with the notion that they can function as adults doing absolutely nothing of value.
And so, we should ignore it when they have an opportunity to change that? I'm not sure where I sit anymore. I don't think I fit into either right or left thinking. I think I'm pro competition. I think right now capitalism is rigged to shit in favour of a few people, and I think that socialism will lead to the absence of desire to compete. And I'd reckon that the spirit of competition would have been one of the driving elements behind capitalism in the first place - people should be able to 'make their way' instead of having designated money dragons, but that isn't how this world works right now.

I think the attitudes of the young have been impacted greatly by the climate they've grown up around. And yes, I think they've been influenced by 'easy money youtubers' in that vein. Had a kid think over 100k a year wasn't a lot to live on. The idiot watches Mr Beast constantly. It has seriously warped their understand of the world.

>>17457454
it's not particularly hard to do both, worthless bootlicker

>>17456198
not good. of the other two books i have only read ellul and kaczynski which are both way better and have more interesting ideas. linkola's book is basically just an angry boomer rant about how modernity destoys nature, which is justified but doesn't provide any good reflections about the subject. the only thing i found kinda funny was the part about 9/11. i don't know why so many people on here like him so much. imo edward abbey is more interesting and funnier. read him if yo want to read boomer environmentalism.

>>17457451
I agree with that guy. I am against open-border immigration. I am more right-leaning on that issue.

>>17457460
Yeah we should raise people to be worse educated, less literate, and have less options and potential to function within a variety of fields for the holistic feelie feels right? People need purpose. Purpose to others is a primary motivating factor in how people behave. So we should raise people to feel as though they can have no purpose, by neglecting their education? By neglecting efficacy?

You missed Woodstock.

>>17457476
btw can someone find the letter ted kaczynski wrote adressing the mkultra claims? i've only seen it here on 4chan and can't find it anywhere else.

>>17457463
I get what you mean, but I don't see how wanting to become a youtuber is any different from wanting to become Kurt Cobain or Michael Jordan. kids understand the world that's in front of them, and for the better part of the last century that has meant television and internet media. really, the phenomenon you're describing is a product of capitalism.

I agree that it's very hard to come up with a replacement for the profit motive. most arguments against seem conjectural at best. claiming that people won't ever do anything useful unless there's a chance they might get rich off of it is as vulgar and stupid as claiming people will volunteer to mine lithium.

>>17456078

I genuinely believe *Western ''democratic'') society will collapse in our lifetimes.

>>17457504
If you're going to strawman why even respond?

>>17457531
It collapsed yesterday

>>17457543
>If you're going to strawman why even respond?
Says the person who wrote an entire spiel on:
>Doing well in your view means contributing to an economy mostly organized around useless production and endless consumption spurred by insane and insidious marketing.
Pot calling the kettle black, much?

>>17457530
>I get what you mean, but I don't see how wanting to become a youtuber is any different from wanting to become Kurt Cobain or Michael Jordan.
Felicity and reality. You wanna be a rock star? You need to be able to rock. You need to be talented. You need to work hard. Youtube? Get a one hit wonder. Be minted forever.

>>17456246
>>17456283
>>17456309
>>17456501
>>17456510
>>17456565
>>17456661
>>17456712
>>17456714
>>17456757
>>17457086
>>17457186
If Capital must die I shall die with it

>>17457566
ok

>>17457531
it is in constant cycle of collapsing and re-emerging.

>>17457553
I'm pretty certain that the term "one hit wonder" stems from popular music itself. that's always been the appeal of it. any moron with a couple hundred dollars can pick up a guitar or synthesizer. think of how much fucking money "Four Non Blondes" made with that one song.

conversely, most youtubers need actual researching, editing and oratory skills in order to get anywhere at all. the sheer amount of competition means most of the successful ones grind for 100 views a day for years before getting anywhere. of course there's outliers like mukbangers or obnoxious personality vloggers but there's only room for so many of those.

the prospect of quick and easy cash will always appeal to children. they have not developed any work ethic. they do not appreciate the extremely low likelihood that they can actually become rich famous. give them some time.

>>17457605
>He's defending children doing no work because their aspirations are to become a youtuber
You're an idiot of immeasurable disservice to society at large.

>>17457623
I'm not defending anyone you peabrained lunatic. I'm dispelling your doomer delusions.

>>17457628
>just give them some time
>it totally requires all of these incredible skills
>they aren't wasting their time watching thousands of hours of youtube
>totally not defending it btw
An idiot of immeasurable disservice.

>>17456701
What's the point of going full Ted mode if this action of mine won't affect anything on a global scale? And when did I say I dislike technology? For its most part technology per se is beneficial and useful in the short- and mid-term for humanity. The problem is that you can't separate its good parts from the bad ones, and thus in the long-term the bad aspects of it prove (and have proven) to have a way bigger effect on society, causing adverse and negative permanent damage on many levels of its functioning.

>>17457644
given your level of reading comprehension it's pretty obvious you slacked off in school as well

>>17457649
Do you want to start Amish 2.0? No wireless technology. No internet. No computers. Corded phones and wires acceptable. Medical technology exempt.

>>17457504
>people only find purpose in being instrumentalized by capital
There are ways to have competition, striving, and even hierarchy other than unbridled material production and capital accumulation. Ways that don't pose an existential threat in the form of ecological collapse. Scientific discovery, artistic merit, athletic or gaming ability, are all arenas that produce striving, competition, and hierarchy without unlimited extraction and environmental degradation.

People in socialist economies tend to be better educated and more literate. I don't know where you pulled neglecting education from or what you mean by neglecting efficacy. Capital is only efficacious wrt self-reproduction through accelerating extraction of natural and human resources.

>>17457656
>Being lazy is good in a sick and bloated society.
An idiot of IMMEASURABLE DISSERVICE to society.

>>17456174

It's the new trend now that the Dems are back. It's going to continue like this for like 2 years before everyone quietly just packs their tents and moves on to whatever the next trend is. I'm not kidding, give it 2 years. In the same way identity politics liberalism and alt right incel racism has been gradually draining out over the past 2 years or so, the Dirtbag Left Anti Capitalist thing is the new trend to replace it. Obviously capitalism is the best system of organising society we presently have, (and it also needs a lot of work). This is readily obvious to any thinking or non thinking person who doesn't have internet dependency. The Anti-Capitalist thing isn't getting big because it's true, it's because it's the new novelty worldview which makes things seem dramatic and exciting, which keeps you look at your Twitter feed, listening to podcasts, and reading Reddit articles. That's it. Get ready for a bunch of threads like this over the next few years, before the next thing comes along, whatever that may be.

>>17457644
Hes just saying that the perception that things are worse now is skewed because you're neglecting the exact same worthless aspirations for fame that existed in previous generations.

>>17457665
capitalist society is an immeasurable disservice to humanity and all life on earth

>>17457672
commendable effort, but the reactionary brain will perceive reality however it wants.

>>17456737
based buddhaposter

I will GLADLY die and end my bloodline as long as every blood sucking kike and their archon masters dies with me. My life is a SMALL price to pay for the millenia of peace and joy

>>17456737
>>17457681
how does newton's first law of motion factor into this I wonder

>>17457672
Because kids at least had the reality attached to it. They needed to be discovered, found a studio etc... these kids are banking on making a viral video. If you don't think that aspiration is different in how accessible it looks, you're wrong and deluding yourself into a specious equivalency. Given that anon posted a full strawman rant about how I only view things through a capitalist lens, which is false, given that education also opens the opportunity to aesthetic appreciation of the world, then yes... they are an idiot. If you cannot see how the plausibility aspect of 'professional musician' versus 'youtuber' are different in the allurement of young people, then I fear you too may be an idiot.

>>17457673
Sorry mate, your NEET card fell out of your pocket.

>>17457691
why wait, kys right now

>>17457698
reactionary diatribe. you understiamte the difficulty of being a professional youtuber and overestimate the difficulty of being a "professional musician" (read: pop music lottery winner). knowing very little about either subject, you fill the gap with whatever conjecture confirms your moronic reactionary narrative.

please exit the field of education and find a job that's more in line with your mental capacity, like flipping burgers or gutting fish. you are the only person here who may actually be "of immeasurable disservice to society".

>>17457430

Never, not once.

>>17457698

>>17457460
great post.

>>17457733
>understiamte the difficulty of being a professional youtuber and overestimate the difficulty of being a "professional musician"
It's not my estimation that matters, it's the children's. And if they neglect their education in favour of chasing that, and we go 'yeah ok then go wild', we're cheating them. And frankly, not only do I not want to cheat people out of the potential to lead a fullfilling life, I also don't really want to be paying for it after the fact too.

You do not understand that being kind is not helping them. You're too stupid to connect those dots. Come back in a few years, preferably once you've gotten past the age of 22.

>>17456757
Finally a crafty answer

>>17457761
they can read the writing on the wall, you can't.

>>17457772
>just ignore the problem
>being lazy is good
>if everyone could be lazy we'd have a renaissance
>you shouldn't be an educator if you don't let them piss life chances up the wall
I'm glad it's me and not you in education. Stay far away from the field. We need less dreamy eyed dummies in the field.

>>17457788
yup, being a parasite of a parasite is good. their life chances were already pissed up the wall, you're just dragging out the process

>>17457804
You're a parasite.

>How bad are we fucked?

A lot.

>>17457809
of a parasite. you're a teacher, right? what do two negatives make again? :^)

>>17457824
No, you're just a parasite. It sounds like you leech off of benefits and took umbrage to my stance. But further than that, your amoral stance on the situation makes you a.. philosophical parasite too.

We need to stamp out people like yourself. World'll be better for it. Nix the apologists for the indolent.

>>17457693
Objects eventually decay and cease to exist. Even a planet hurtling through a perfect vaccuum will eventually dissolve at heat death.

The law of first motion itself may not have ever been originated though, making it eternal.

>>17457664
>Scientific discovery
Not the guy you're replying to, but scientific discovery is one of the main causations, or at least the instrument, that has led and leads to environmental degradation. If you want an ecologically clean Earth in the long-term, you need to completely get rid of it, or else as science advances and becomes more accessible to the public (which is inevitable), more and more people will find some way or another to take hold of that technology, privatise it and use it for their own personal gains without heeding the consequences it might cause. Technology is not the problem, the problem is that indelible part of the human nature (that is, greed) that renders it dangerous. You can't have it both ways.

>>17457832
No, I write papers for money and actively subvert the institutions toads like you prop up. I parasitize a system that rapes the earth, while you browbeat children for not larping as shonen protagonists in 2021.

>>17457851
Oh you're a semite, why didn't you just say? I could have ignored everything you wrote.

>>17457761
nobody is telling you to let kids dick around and underachieve in the service of some media-instilled pipe dream. you came up with that all on your own.

I'm generally more optimistic than you are about the lasting power of these stupid ass childhood dreams. reality tends to eclipse them entirely. since you're in a place where you can influence these kids, you should be able to help speed this process along. alarmist /pol/ bullshit does not help anyone.

>>17457854
>it's jewish to subvert jewish debt farms
christ you're fucking thick. you really are an educator aren't you?

>>17456174
i am poor and that is very wrong

>>17457788
>the kids I teach living in an obvious death cult don't want to have anything to do with it or me, the seething retard half-heartedly delivering state-mandated test-prep in between reactionary diatribes about bootstraps and the inspiring work ethic that the Archies needed to produce "Sugar Sugar".
>AHHH IM GOING INSAAAAANE

>>17457851
>while you browbeat children for not larping as shonen protagonists in 2021.
ne'er so well expressed

>>17457864
Oy vey, I subvert for the shekels. Education is bad! Use media! Media good!

>>17457855
>nobody is telling you to let kids dick around and underachieve in the service of some media-instilled pipe dream. you came up with that all on your own.
No, that happened recently. Senior managers directed us to 'just let them'. This is where we're at. They have no internal drive. We have no carrot or stick left to use.

>>17457832
>>17457851
I like this debate/shitflinging. To either keep this game of industrial civilization going or not. The big question of the 21st century.

Maybe it's time to let it go, teach? The kids don't want to play this game anymore. There will be a limbo, a slacking off for a bit, but a new game will be created. Think of it this way, the NFL doesn't have to exist forever.

>>17457877
to be frank most school boards are fucking garbage, especially in the western hemisphere, so I'm not going to argue with you on that. largely speaking though, underachieving as a teenager doesn't really prevent anyone from succeeding in adult life.

>>17457901
There's a difference between underachieving, and achieving nothing, is what I feel needs to be emphasised in this. We're talking kids that are barely literate. They can barely write. Their reading age is that of an infant's. And we're being told to just let 'em go on YouTube, ignore their work. What message does that send? We've written them off? That they should get special treatment? Either way it's fucked.

>>17457896
>The kids don't want to play this game anymore. There will be a limbo, a slacking off for a bit, but a new game will be created.
But at the rate they're going, they're not going to be equipped to play *any* game.

>>17456296
Humans are bad for trees. That's pretty much it. I haven't read his books, but he has made some valid points when I've heard his speeches. He has no solutions, except waiting until system collapses under its own weight, or humans go extinct. He just is type of guy that internet calls based, even if he doesn't follow his own principles.

>>17457761
Surely you must have encountered a few children who could be potential authors, engineers, artists. Most children are pretty stupid and they always have been, I can imagine a teacher having the same laments about how television had affected youthful aspirations in the 80s.

I will agree that a YouTuber aspiration is more insidious than a popstar/tv celebrity because it is more focused on the artificial fulfillment from viewers and likes. Hopefully they will realise this path is unviable except to the top 0.1%, and have to live with an ordinary job.

>>17457920
>But at the rate they're going, they're not going to be equipped to play *any* game.
good, and this degenerate world will reap what it sowed

>>17456174
It forces me to sacrifice my time for bullshit reasons.

>>17457920
>What message does that send? We've written them off?
that's the public school system I remember.

>>17457845
Doing a study on spotted owl populations or astrophysics research does not lead to significant environmental degradation (sure, launching probes into space isn't great, but its minuscule in comparison to industry). All of the issues you bring up are only issues under capitalism with private property, private production, and no authorization required by the communities affected by the consequences of said production. Greed is made inert by empowering the people impacted by that greed.

>>17457460
Communism/socialism is just as bad as capitalism. The former eventually evolves into dictatorship, while the latter - into authoritarian crony capitalism. The only difference is that the (d)evoling process of capitalism takes more time to reach and conclude its final form. Even hybrid variations like the Republic of China will eventually crumble under their otherwise solid structure, either because of ecological reasons (limited resources that can't possibly keep up their vast industrial machine alive), or because of internal strife within its governmental power.

>>17457932
>good, and this degenerate world will reap what it sowed
No, it won't, those individuals will be reaping what they've sown. There will still be people capable of doing those jobs. Instead, by refusing to even begin to grow, they are relegating themselves to a life with heavy limits. You would need decades upon decades of this shit to put any real pressure on society.

>>17457930
>Surely you must have encountered a few children who could be potential authors, engineers, artists.
Sure, there are one or two bright kids, and I hope they'll go on to do something really cool (but likelier, they'll just move into an adequate job position).

But I also think that Timmy with his innumeracy, illiteracy, poor problem solving skills, low work ethic etc., is going to be pretty fucking damned when it comes time to finding his way in the world if nobody starts addressing those issues now.

>>17457933
Fuck me, this. True at every level. The worst part is that productivity has increased so much, we could be working like 10 hours or less a week instead, with a very similar lifestyle commodity wise.

>>17457963
kek, we're all damned you clown.

>>17457956
I don't see how people can recognize the fact that capitalism is founded on the principle of infinite growth in an environment of finite resources and not immediately come to the conclusion that it will eventually exhaust all available resources if it isn't stopped.

>>17456174
>"Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other"

>>17457978
>want to avoid a nanny system that coddles people
>that results in poor motivation
>get called doomer
>say i think it's unfair to write off or relegate kids to no education by 12
>that coddling them is not going to help them when they leave school
>get called a clown
Ignoring all capitalist aspects, do you suppose people became great at things entirely by nature? The historical greats had tutors, studied, read, became motivated intrinsically..

>>17458008
they don't want to assimilate into a rigged system. that's it, it's simple as that.

>>17458008
Maybe less than 1% of people have ever been great at anything

>>17457341
you are 12 years old

>>17458008
Not him, but the intrinsic motivation thing is key here. By definition, it cannot be imparted extrinsically. These developments you're pointing out are a filter. Those kids would always have muddled through life. You need to let them bleed.

>>17456174
WHY tf everyone can't just have the money and not work? I hate working but i need money TF

>>17457961
Many socialist/communist projects have failed, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying for an alternative to capitalism. Global capitalism is already fomenting ecological collapse, which includes, and will increasingly include, human ecosystems, let alone psychically crippling alienation. The status quo is certain doom. Barring some miracle scientific breakthrough (which, if still operating under the logic of infinite exponential growth that capitalism requires, would only delay the collapse), experimenting with alternative modes of social organization is our only option.

>>17456600
Maoist China was not communist, but state capitalist. Even now it claims to be communist and it's probably the most capitalist country in the world. Mao was a supreme mistake, but just because he claimed to be communist doesn't mean he was one.

>>17456078
Heart’s a bomb. Can’t let the people stop their workings. Things and things and things and more, drat (damn).

>>17457186
wow i can't believe zoomers just want to live with their parents when they could just get raped in a totally retarded usury-based rental housing market. how many spirit crushing economic crashes did fucking 90s kids have to live through? endless turmoil from economic bubbles bursting and the death throes of neoliberalism is all zoomers have known their entire lives

>>17458074
communism is inevitable, everyone who thinks otherwise are brainlets

>>17458091

oops that was targeted at
>>17457188

>>17457961
>communism/socialism means authoritarianism
Only if you maintain a State. Leninism is to blame here, it single-handedly fucked all mejor communists experiments. But there are still other alternatives, as proved by the Markhovists, the Barcelona anarcho-syndicalists and Rojava. There's still room to improve, but an alternative is possible.

If most of you had actually read Ellul you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing about Capitalism versus Communism, ideology and doctrine nowadays is irrelevant. The most effective means always wins

>>17457956
>Doing a study on spotted owl populations or astrophysics research does not lead to significant environmental degradation (sure, launching probes into space isn't great, but its minuscule in comparison to industry).
You can't separate the good aspects of technology from the bad ones, due to the simple fact that scientists' actions as a whole are pushed by the motivation itself for making a discovery (for reference, the discovery of radioactive elements was initially thought to have a positive contribution to society, but ultimately it proved otherwise; another example can be the flying apparatuses: do you really think da Vinci and the Wright brothers would have ever guessed that their models/inventions would have later served for bombing and killing other human beings?) Read Kaczynski's works.

>All of the issues you bring up are only issues under capitalism with private property, private production, and no authorization required by the communities affected by the consequences of said production. Greed is made inert by empowering the people impacted by that greed.
You must be really naive and delusional to think that the use of technology can be properly regulated under any kind of political system. There is not a single documented case of a socialist/communist country in history to have ever shown any such regulations in regards to the adverse effects of technology. Secondly, the power of communist/socialist countries never lies in the hands of the masses, but always in a small group of people that pretend to do only good things for the sake of their people - this is one of the biggest misconceptions the leftists assume, because they lack basic knowledge of how human nature works and always resort to impossible dreamy utopias where the populace is all united and freely directs its own fate without any external influences and subversions.

>>17456174
Markets are good but capitalism is different and based on unsustainable growth.

>>17456198
90% of the book is about Finnish birds and trees and the other 10% is him advocating genocide and applauding the 9/11 hijackers.
So yeah, quite good.

>>17457991
M*rxoids are stuck in the 1800s. Unless you live in China or something class struggle doesn't exist. Unless you actually think there will be an uprising of Starbucks workers? Lol

>>17458074
>Many socialist/communist projects have failed, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying for an alternative to capitalism.
I agree, I never said I'm a supporter of capitalism. One thing I know for sure though is that communism will never work on a global scale, nay, not even at a local, unless it adopts some other fundamental aspects from other ideologies/political systems, just like China did (and even China won't prove that long-lasting).

>>17458080
It was a dictatorship of the proletariat and dictatorships of the proletariat tend to become state capitalist societies because they perfectly set up the nation for state capitalism. Marx explicitly stated in his critique of the gotha programme that a revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat was necessary for the establishment of a true communist society, and he also stated that ownership of the means of production must be collectivized in this dictatorship of the proletariat. The Great Leap Forward was explicitly just a policy in which Mao made private ownership of farms illegal and collectivized all farms. This resulted in 5-8 holocausts worth of fatalities. Even if you don’t believe that Maoist China was a dictatorship of the proletariat, collectivizing the ownership of farms is still necessary for a society to be a dictatorship of the proletariat (and to usher in a communist society, according to Marx), and it’s been universally disastrous whenever implemented.

>>17458161
the capitalist world-economy has now entered its terminal crisis, a crisis that may last up to fifty years. The real question before us is what will happen during this crisis, this transition from the present world-system to some other kind of historical system or systems

>>17458186
Hate to break it to you but there will be no worker uprising. Class consciousness will never be restored, Porky won. People are way too individualistic.

>>17458174
>dictatorship of the proletariat
That term has been the subject of much controversy, and Lenin (from whom Mao took his theory) is responsible for using it as a justification of the Soviet State. One can still abolish private property without it devolving into a Great Leap Forward disaster (the causes of the GLF involve more than just collectivization of the ownership of farms too).

>>17458198
>meanwhile in India

>>17458217
Wow a Kulak revolt.

>>17458186
>The real question before us is what will happen during this crisis, this transition from the present world-system to some other kind of historical system or systems
One world authoritarian technocratic government, it will be unprecedented for mankind due to the already way advanced technology and its use by the power elites to keep everyone obedient, weak and brainwashed by both psychological (propaganda) and biological (chemicals in food and water) means. It'll be a mixture between 1984 and Brave New World

>>17458167
So how about a communist project with an emphasis on democracy and freedom of expression, coupled with anti-consumer social values or an adoption of sustainability as the primary value akin to a religious revival (or even just transferring our consumer habits into digital space rather than material commodities), and a rejection of the promise of better, just an acknowledgment that we have to throw some wrenches in the gears of the extraction/accumulation machine in order to survive, and shift the sites of antagonism to non-existential threats? The communist project isn't shackled to the methods and values that created Dengism.

>>17458198
not with that attitude. will you fight, or will you die as a dog?

>>17458252
I'm up to fight, I'm just saying communism is a dead end.

>>17458236
Communism was already an attempt to bootstrap a new religion that remained at least somewhat continuous with Christianity - why would it work THIS time?

>>17458215
Yes, the reason why the dictatorship of the proletariat generates controversy is because it literally does justify Maoist and Leninist governments. The entire reason why Bakunin and collectivist anarchists disagreed with Marx and Engels is because Marx and Engels had the batshit retarded idea that a dictatorial state would just magically “wither away” and not evolve into state capitalism. In On Authority Engels even throws an entire shitfit with a lot of faulty logic regarding how he hates anti-authoritarians but he totally isn’t an authoritarian because “the dictatorship of the proletariat will wither away guys trust me I said so.” He also tries to say that people absolutely have to respect authority in certain situations while disregarding the fact that in many of the situations he listed, people were not coerced into respecting authority but instead voluntarily chose to.
And it’s not just the GLF, it’s also the Cambodian genocide (1.5-2 million killed by starvation) and the Holodomor (3-12 million killed, but probably around 3.5 million) and the North Korean famine (240,000 to 3.5 million killed) and the Special Period in Cuba (which wasn’t really a famine, but resulted in extreme malnutrition and death rate among the elderly increased by 20%). It just doesn’t fucking work and there’s nothing which would imply that it would.

Everyone is gay but me

>>17458235
Embryo selection is here soon.

>>17458298
You never know until you try :^)
And not trying seems like a clear road to technofeudal enclaves scattered across swathes of dead earth.

>>17458350
>feudal enclaves
SOVL.

>>17458350
Actually-existing state socialism would be closer to feudalism in practice, though... at their core, socialist movements are reactionary and want to roll back enclosure acts, or if they're more radical, want to essentially bring back hunter-gatherer life while still keeping technology around somehow, since the origin of inequality is probably agriculture. The closest thing you could get to a communal farm ruled by a lord would be a collectively-owned industry run by a Red nobleman. It's no coincidence that Communism is least relevant in the Protestant countries, and this is most pronounced int he US and UK - Communism is an attempt to bootstrap the Church back into relevance after large percentages of the population ceased to believe in the teaching of the actual Church.

>>17458312
I absolutely agree with you. What I'm saying is that the abolition of private property does not entail a dictatorship of the proletariat. In fact, abolishing capital (and by extension, private property) won't matter unless you also abolish the structure of the State.

>>17458417
Would you agree to a temporary state whose function is to fight the forces of global capital as they try to crush the upstart revolution? Would you be able to win sovereignty with an army consisting of autonomous democratic syndicates?

>>17458405
This is the most midwit take I've ever read

>>17458462
Why do you think so?

>>17458448
>temporary state
Never, hierarchical structures of authority only replicate themselves. There's no such thing as a "temporary workers State"; that's what the Bolshevik State was supposed to be, and look how pretty that went.
>whose function is to fight the forces of global capital as they try to crush the upstart revolution?
Defense against reaction will be difficult, but far from impossible, and one wouldn't need a standing army to accomplish the goal of defense.
>Would you be able to win sovereignty with an army consisting of autonomous democratic syndicates?
This one's more tricky, but I'd still reject an standing army. Voluntary militias, as suggested by Malatesta and realized by other historical anarchist experiments, would be the way to go.

>>17458236
In my opinion, the first and foremost necessary foundation for a healthy and long-lasting society is some sort of a strong religious guiding belief of a metaphysical nature that would serve as the principal communal glue where everyone shares common goals and values. Human nature in itself is such that we are just bound to seek for something deeper, meaningful and even mystical in this world that is beyond the superficial and material, something that cannot be touched or seen, but rather perceived in a way that would enrich and feed our spirituality in regards to fundamental questions such as what is our purpose and meaning in life, or is there a higher, supreme authority in nature that constitutes all the substance of everything and everyone. As for the rest, it is very hard to say and determine the perfect ideological governmental system, mainly because:

(a) different nations/ethnicities/people cannot have one and the same governmental system (for example, a monarchy would be way more successful than democracy in some Middle East countries, if not all of them, while Scandinavian countries would be more predisposed to a socialist-democratic way of ruling)
and (b) sometimes there are natural processes and influences that are beyond our control which predetermine people's social and religious order either gradually, or for a short period of time; that is, most of the time we cannot just set and establish a certain governmental structure and way of life no matter how perfect in theory it might seem. People need to find their path on their own, and choose what's better for them through common reason - of which, unfortunately, recent history provides very few examples.

>>17458471
>Communism is an attempt to bootstrap the Church back into relevance after large percentages of the population ceased to believe in the teaching of the actual Church.
Communism was biggest in Italy, Germany, Spain and Russia(in Europe) all of which the Church(es) still had a lot of power. Also it was founded by Marx as explicitly anti religion and continued like that, like with Gramsci, or Bolsheviks persecuting the Orthodox Church. A strata of authorities(commissars) having resemblance to religious authority doesn't mean they're the same thing or an attempt by the Church to reassert power.
Note there were multiple decrees against Communism by the Catholic Church too.

>>17458148
>Capitalism is based
Yes

>>17458589
Cringe. Take the distributism pill.

>>17458527
>Communism was biggest in Italy, Germany, Spain and Russia(in Europe) all of which the Church(es) still had a lot of power.
>Also it was founded by Marx as explicitly anti religion and continued like that, like with Gramsci, or Bolsheviks persecuting the Orthodox Church.
Yeah, because the Party replaces the Church in the long run. I used "the Church" in the sense of an organ of power that functions in a more-or-less analogous manner to the Church in these countries.

>>17458618
>anything that supports human values is church

>>17458637
Well yeah, kind of. There are no moral facts in the absence of the divine. At the very least the Party needs to impose sufficient moral discipline on its elite to ensure they won't just go back to capitalism again.

>>17458589
Based commie destroyer

>>17457566
fine, we'll gladly kill you

>>17458657

Yoga is the answer, westerlings. Always has been, always will be.

>>17456078
Just stop buying garbage and following pop culture

>>17456174
Personally I find it annoying some people can play games or show their tits and be made for life whilst people contributing tl society need to put a lot of work in to make it work, get paid peanut, and looked down upon by those who harvest the fruits of their labours

>>17458688
but you are still in the system

The natives knew it, they knew how to shut the fuck up and listen. Tried to tell us, show us, too.

>>17458688
I have, but I need to bully everyone else into doing the same before we all die.

>>17458589
Cringe

>>17456600
I literally mentioned in my post how communism isn't the answer either, retard. We must move further away from PRODUCE AND CONSUME/DISTRIBUTE false dichotomy.

>>17457591
b-bros we're 100% in the Apathy-Dependence stage

>>17458802
If the economy is not centered around material conditions, resources, and production relations, what would it be centered around? You cannot ignore these factors or rely on ideals for economic policy, you have to look at it analytically and materially. Economics addresses the question of how material resources are managed, produced, and distributed as well as labor relations. The choice is between prioritizing private capital's interests, or the workers and society.

>>17458826
t. anglo econ major bugman

>>17458825
We're in the bondage phase and faith is dead. We are stuck in hell and it's only getting hotter.

>>17457017
You're using the crutch of modern technological society that none of your ancestors spanning hundreds of thousands of years needed. You're embarassing the lives of all those before you, by saying modern technology a dependance, that it's necessary for survival when literally not a single one depended on it. You are utterly pathetic.

>>17456174
is /lit/ pro or anti socialism?
Please include wheter or not you've read socialist literature to back up your answer

>>17458826
The economy must serve the people's needs first and foremost. We need to think of economic policy in terms of maximizing prosperity for the society we govern as much as possible. The state represents its nation and its people. The state economy should in turn serve its people, regardless of class. National brotherhood is more important than class or wealth imo. We shouldn't focus solely on labor or production or consumption, but also cultural life, unity, promoting growth of native citizen's families, promoting domestic job growth rather than relying on immigrants or foreign trade to maximize GDP growth (like the materialist dogs strive to do), and national pride. We shouldn't adhere to ideological dogmas of laissez faire capitalism, liberalism, or Marxism, but break free of this false materialist coin.

>>17458847
those before us could live off the land. privatization, population growth, pollution, declines in wildlife populations, habitat destruction, and the fact that those skills have not been passed down have made this untenable, and certainly not universalizable.

>>17458844
You think? How so?

>>17458833
This doesn't answer any of my questions.
Economic policy has to deal with production, consumption, labor, wealth, and resources. That's what the subject is about

>>17458882
You are mostly describing social policy rather than economic policy. Your romanticist nationalist (likely fascist) ideal society still needs an economic policy to deal with the material goods, services, and commerce sector.

ARRGGGH THIS NEOLIBERAL HECK WORLD

>>17456174
Marxists don't like it because something something exploitation something something utopian thinking.

I don't like it because it accelerates the forces of social entropy and destroys traditions. A hypercapitalist society is atomizing and decadent, the perfect compliment to progressive ideology.

>>17458599
I'd be more interested in distributism if it had been written about by more than like 2 guys. at least socialism has a lot of theory.

>>17458886
clear the brainfog of hypernormalization and take a look. 2/3rds of wildlife. psychopolitics.

>>17458971
Progressivism encourages individualism, moral relativism, and libertine behavior. This has more in common with capitalism's "greed is good", "bootstraps", "free market" approach than it does the heavy moralism and collectivism of right wing theocrats, traditionalists, nationalists, etc

>>17459034
contemporary progressivism isn't individualist, relativist, or libertine.

>>17459034
The progressive movement has been corrupted by identity politics and a strict morality around social justice and intersectionality. It only makes sense that the white identity politics movement grew in reaction to their charged rhetoric and hysterics

>>17459034
exactly

>>17458985
okay then what do we do?

these 4 books are where historical materialism stagnates into stinky piss sweat and thats why the people who read them are depressed

>>17459168
join movements that exacerbate antagonism in the hope that something new can emerge

>>17459168
set the dialectic in motion

>>17459067
elaborate. relativist might be debatable but egoism and decadence are incredibly common in progressive circles

>>17459253
>>17459261

>>17459290
>Action is scary so let's just cower in fear of a boogeyman!
CIA psyops do exist, but the fact that leftists are willing to firebomb police stations while rightists shout mean words at the USSS is why leftists keep getting their way. Malcolm X leading black men around with rifles is as much a factor of civil rights growth as MLK was.

>>17456078
Here's how fucked we are:
>nations will no longer exist due to capitalist expansion and pressure from the UN and IMF
>a very rudimentary and unspoken caste system will form. The levels will be:
Extinct - mindless jobs (factory worker/truck driver/low-end restaurant staff) - a few of us are here
Livestock - every middle-class office worker along with the more intelligent craft workers (e.g. construction workers that dont come to work drunk everyday) - these people, and all of their progeny will be wageslaves forever, and will have access to the cutting edge of mindless sensory manipulation (essentially VR/injectable Marvel movies). These people do not get paid, they will choose benefits and then work the requisite hours for those benefits - most of us are here
Farmers - most management staff will serve almost no technical purposes, and exist solely to track business numbers and employee attitudes - they will be kept incredibly busy to prevent uprisings as they're obviously the critical point in the system - a few of us are here
Landlords - the current executive class will collectively own 95%+ of everything on the planet. Their corruption will explode out in a storm that will likely kill us all as they will no longer have even the smallest amount of accountability
>racial tensions within the livestock will only get worse and form a revolving door of who to hate depending on arbitrary and likely fabricated success and failure statistics
>nursing homes will cease to exist for livestock after several scandals remove all trust. Livestock will work until they can't and then be tricked into dying "respectfully"
>farmers will become excessively cruel as the landlords psyop them into hating the livestock for being so base and disgusting
>celebrities will be genetically engineering in a lab and be the pets of the executives
>to promote social cohesion laws will vary wildly between cities and employers. This will leave the aggregate livestock incredibly fragmented

>>17458885
>the fact that those skills have not been passed down
Uhhhhhh use the internet? Read books about the subject?
Everything else you said is also wrong. If anything, modern technology allows us to live off the land more than ever. Certainly more universalizable as well. Humans are now able to grow crops even in harsh winter through cutting-edge greenhouse tech that is no harder to set up than a house with running water and electricity. The only requirement to live off the land is to move out of large urban centers.

>>17459316
>Leftists burn down the entire US of A for months, sacking police stations, courthouses, and other civic buildings
>Countless businesses are destroyed, houses are looted, PEOPLE ARE MURDERED
>An "autonomous zone" is declared in the Capital Hill area of a major American city
>They claim independence, establish borders, refuse city services to residents
>President universally lambasted for brutality and ineptitude when he suggests that this "autonomous zone" looks a lot like an insurrection
>Nothing happens for a month
>"It's okay to protest :)"
>*Haha CHAZ is so funny and woke! BLM and ACAB btw!*
>...
>A few hundred Q-Tard boomers are LET IN to the Capital building BY POLICE
>Some property damage and theft
>Cops shoot one of them in the neck, killing her
>They tell everyone to leave and the "mob" shuffles out
>"OHMYGOD AN INSURRECTION!!!!!!!!!!"
>"THEY TRIED TO CONQUER AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!"
>"GOD BLESS THE POLICE!!!!!"
>"ALL THE UPDOOTS FOR POLICE!!!!!"
>Daily news stories about the attempted "coup"
I'm not even American and I know this is /lit/ but... I don't like where things are heading when this is the level of schizophrenia America is dealing with.

>>17456371
>Marxists are so funny

Ted was not exactly one

>>17456174
the amount of poverty despite the wealth it generates

>>17459390
yea things look bad fuck broz

>>17456078
based and doomerpilled

>>17459429
meant to add this

>>17456757
You'll be saying the same thing and posting the same retarded graph 60 years from now.

>>17456525
>Technology bad
No
>Technology as essence
Bad

>>17459390
My favorite part is when they say "FOUR PEOPLE DIEEEEEED!", like it was the protestors who killed 4 people and not 4 protestors who were killed BY POLICE.
Even though nothing came of it, I'm still glad it happened. The sheer hypocrisy of cheering on riots that burned down black neighborhoods "becuz socjus!" while crying about angry boomers having the audacity to get shot, this pulled the wool from over my eyes. Anyone sane should realize the incontrovertibility of the statement "America is an imperialist power". There is no democracy left here, just stagnation. Pic EXTREMELY related.

>>17459404
The problem with capitalism isn't poverty. It is inequality.

If two monkeys receive sweet grapes to eat, both are very happy. If two monkeys receive cucumbers to eat, neither complain. If one monkey receives sweet grapes and the other a cucumber, neither complain. If the same thing happens but they see what each other got, there's a problem—the one that received a cucumber will shriek, despite being well fed. This was a real experiment done with real monkeys.

The wealth generated by capitalism took most of the human population out of poverty, unarguably more than any other economic system. Therefore, the amount of poverty isn't the problem. However, it is as you say, "despite the wealth it generates" people are still unhappy. But that is no fault of capitalism. People will never be happy so long as they animalistically define happiness by comparing themselves to others.

>>17457086
>Growth without end is the mantra of the cancer cell
well put sir

>>17459465
...What graph, schizo-kun?

>>17457476
based edward abbey poster he's the man t. southwest rat

>>17456078
I will always regret not flying out to Finland so I could axemurder Linkola.

>>17459570
based yangposter

you aint fucked if you know how to play the game. make money

>>17459699
>you ain't fucked if you're the one doing the fucking
Fact Check: Mostly True
>while being the one doing the fucking ordinarily keeps one safe from being fucked, there are reported instances of highly wealthy opportunists using the fucker's act of fucking as an opportunity to, in fact, fuck the fucker

>>17459699
chances are you wont make money

>>17457429
dude nordics are insanely homogenous and are all the same, ever seen a pic of Norweigan schoolgirls during winter? All have the same jackets, boots, pants, etc. it's a homogenous society/culture and that manifests itself everywhere. The problem with the nordic model is just that, it's NORDIC, for a 99% ethnocentric society. Hence why it would never work in America.

>>17459889
it worked in the 40s with the most popular president of all time mr. fdr 4 term

>>17459390
>the level of schizophrenia America is dealing with
It's the whole world. The truth is in front of people's eyes but there's a reporter or billonaire next to it saying the opposite and people believe it. It's like when Winston is made to see five fingers when there are four in 1984.
Niggers burning cities down but the headline says "peaceful protest" and people believe it.
The globalists literally say "You will own nothing and be happy" but no conspiracies here!

>>17456174
Capitalism destroys all identity and loyality to groups and ideas to create brainwashed consumer slaves that define themselves by their consumption choices. The corporations and banks are backing up the degenerates and leftiests. It's cultural capitalism, not marxism. The fat, rootless and dependent consoooomer is the ideal human for them.
Not that communism or fascism are better. All are different heads of industrial society which in whatever form always aims for total control and docile masses.

>>17460117
At least fascism has a millenarian bent to it.

>>17457429
>Laissez-fair economics has never worked and will never work.
>The Nordic countries have an efficient single-payer health care system, free college, long parental leave, heavily subsidized child care, strong job protections, and labor markets governed by centralized union contracts.
???????
Nordic countries are some of the highest in the Economic Freedom Index. The worst one among the Nordic countries is Norway at 26th place (out of 180), but Norway has massive amounts of easily extractable oil and gas (and 26th is still really high). Other countries like Canada are the same. They are literal proof that laissez-fair economics has worked and will always work.
Certain government subsidies and laissez-fair economics aren't incompatible. A healthy, working economy allows the government to collect the taxes it needs to maintain those safety nets, and a healthy, working economy makes less people need those safety nets, which puts less strain in the government.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with plants but I'll give you this example anyway. Mistletoes are beautiful yet parasitic plants. You can place one in a tree trunk and it will grow without killing the tree, and everyone can celebrate Christmas with the mistletoe leaves. The problem is people go "Tree trunks are ugly and don't work for Christmas" and try to make the mistletoe plant take over the whole tree, killing the tree that the mistletoe used to get nutrients from, and then killing the mistletoe. Targetting laissez-fair economics, the tree, as something that needs to be exterminated means the safety nets you want, the mistletoe, will never have a place to grow.

>>17460031
>Niggers burning cities down but the headline says "peaceful protest" and people believe it.
This was a huge blackpill for me, especially when people are unironically referring to that miga autism tantrum as an INSURRECTION.

>>17456078
(I recognize this is a little "out there", but hear me out)

In my eyes, the current state of Western Civilization reflects flaws and tensions that were embedded in it from the beginning. And where can we pin these flaws? Frankly, I think it goes back to Greek mythology being flawed. The Theogony, the Iliad, the Odyssey: these works reflect a broken and flawed version of the Greek mythos. Western civilization was built on these mythos, and their flaws became our own. In order to fix the flaws within Western civilization, we need to write the true version of Greek mythology.

>But how do we know the correct version of Greek mythology
Luckily for the West, I know the correct version of Greek mythology. I will not show it to anyone until it is complete, but rest assured: help is on the way.

>>17460542
based

>>17460411
Not to mention now they're rooting out "extremism" in the military. What the fuck are they planning that they need to know there is absolutely zero dissenting opinions in the military?
Also here's a future headline for after they finish the purge and realize that a lot of military members voted for trump:
> "the military has finished assessing extremism within its ranks and its even worse than we thought"

>>17460840
kek just saw a story about that from my country today. Don't even get me started on what they did to Derek Sloan. We're already on the fucking roller-coaster, which is why I'm leaving ASAP. White Canadians are fucking lemmings and I refuse to pay the taxes to a government that hates me and is actively seeking to replace me. Not trying to sound too /pol/ here but the amount of Whites who spread their asses for anything even vaguely anti-White is making me unironically hate White people.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/controversial-mp-derek-sloan-ejected-from-conservative-caucus-1.5274153

>>17457188
>But when I teach, I see a new era of social ambivalence and nonchalance I couldn't have expected. I have kids growing up aspiring to live at home with their parents. I have kids growing up that want to be YouTubers, and have literally had some tell me they just want to claim benefits.
Nothing you said after this provided any insight as to why your worldview shifted away from socialist ideals. You could have said nothing and it have had the same effect on me. Furthermore, what country do you live in where you can "just claim benefits"???

>>17460896
I feel for you, I would unironically leave Canada in the state that its in. Just their China dealings alone. I've come to have much less resentment for china after seeing the shitbags they're bribing out of spite.
Lucky for me in the US I can move states and get a pretty good distance between me and the craziness. At least for long enough to come up with a permanent option if things keep progressing. Godspeed on your migration anon

>>17460996
lmao @ pic. I'd feel even worse to be a Bonger. So, so sad. I had hope that Scotland would turn the madness around if they managed to gain indep but that's not looking likely. It's all fucked. Shame. There are a few US states that give me some shred of hope but even they are shackled to the POZZING of America. Like tiny little islands in a torrent of sewage. Not a clue where I'll be in 5 years.
>Godspeed on your migration anon
Funnily enough I'm moving to China for a few years. I want to see all the weird shit I can before settling somewhere cheap and cozy.

>>17460896
>the amount of Whites who spread their asses for anything even vaguely anti-White is making me unironically hate White people.
Honestly, I consider pre-WWII and post-WWII Whites to be two separate races. Post-WWII Whites are like cattle compared to their ancestors. I respect the ones who came before, I pity modern Whites.They are a conquered people.

>>17461112
>conquered people
What so we're a conquered people when we accept immigrants from other countries, raise that person's social and economic status through various programs designed to help them, and then embrace the beating from than when they say we're a racist group of patriarchal genociders that needs to be subjugated?
Ok so we've been conquered.

>>17458092
you're about 200 years too early

>>17459601
You can't possibly believe that's a good analogy explaining why poor people are unhappy
It wouldn't be that the monkey is upset it got a cucumber while the other got grapes, it would be that the monkey receives a portion of a cucumber while the other monkey is given more grapes than it could possibly ever need. And that's leaving out issues regarding labor, but the entire analogy is dumb to begin with
You're either being very disingenuous or are just insanely out of touch if you believe poor people are unhappy simply because they're jealous of the rich. Even if you take the poor out of the equation and look at the many young unhappy upper middle class people: do you really think they're depressed because they don't have a yacht? Because they wanted a Rolls-Royce, but only got a BMW?

>>17461112
It's just so tiresome. White people applaud their destruction like nobody else in history. It's not just internet bantz either, I've spoken to several of my fellow White zoomers who say they feels so burdened by White Guilt that they say they won't have 100% White children (both men and women). It's just..... so tiresome. I'm not going to spend my life advocating for these people who don't want to be saved. I'm going to wait until I'm 30 to decide what I'm going to do. If there's some glimmer of hope somewhere then maybe I'll throw myself at it, but otherwise I'm moving to Asia and YELLOWING my bloodline. At least my decedents will be unburdened by "White Privilege" and all it's lovely benefits.
>>17461136
The problem is that people actually believe it's a logical thing to do to open our borders, our wallets, and our assholes to the entire world. Even worse: they think it's our responsibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlVMW7g5QBI

>>17461152
you're absolutely delusional if you think socialism can fix any of these things

>>17461163
>The problem is that people actually believe it's a logical thing to do to open our borders, our wallets, and our assholes to the entire world. Even worse: they think it's our responsibility.

The people who espouse such thing, essentially, are the lapdogs for corporations and governments; absolute purveyors of a consumerist religion.

They hide behind the fact they really wish to sublimate more people to the system; the main lamentations being "racism" or "xenophobia." However, every main argument made from them boils all the way down to getting another body to consume and pay. I suppose many of them seek salvation in the idea of perpetuating the system -- maybe thinking they'll be thanked by the faceless immigrant, which would really speak to their narcissism. They're a savior, afterall.

>>17461187
God yes this is it. I don't hate immigrants by any stretch of the imagination but when massive multinational corporations are lobbying to bring more people into our country during a historical unemployment crisis with no end in sight I get the feeling something foul is approaching. And that they want to dilute native and historical opinions against it, like when a company employs a bunch of people and uses the opportunity to fuck the workers just a little harder.

>>17461187
>They hide behind the fact they really wish to sublimate more people to the system; the main lamentations being "racism" or "xenophobia." However, every main argument made from them boils all the way down to getting another body to consume and pay.
oh yeah without a doubt, and the ones who interact with blacks interact only with that oversocialized black college phenotype you see everywhere and I swear they're chemically engineering for... they have nothing. this system is all they've known. imagine being born in america without a window. I pity most of them

>>17461172
Did you respond to the wrong post?

>>17461163
I mean, am I supposed to feel sorry for Whites? You can that they've been made to hate themselves, and you're right. But at the end of the day, if this had been tried with Chinese people or Arabs, they would have utterly rejected it. They would have fought back. If there was a mass refugee movement into China, what do you think would happen? Whites remain the only group in history who cheer for their own replacement, who want it to happen. And it's like, you guys had every opportunity to reject it, every warning possible. Nothing is happening that wasn't predicted over and over again. Your race had the world by the throat. And your race squandered it. It unironically makes me mad; how stupid can a race be? I genuinely believe that replacement would be good for the West. When whites and their bizarre humiliation fetish cease being the center of policy, Europe/America will be a better place.

>>17461222
No. Are you firing on all cylinders

>>17461234
I think you're mistaken, I didn't mention socialism in my post.

>>17461240
Then what's a viable solution to the problems you posted?

>>17461225
pretty based, why fight for america if it won't fight for itself? all the right can do is pose for selfies in the white house and try to get their memes trending on twitter.

>>17459601
Let's not beat around the bush, the problem with capitalism is the exact same as the problem with socialism: materialism. Even if inequality were eliminated, capitalism (or maybe one would call it "socialism" now) would still be just as unsustainable and destructive, both to humanity and the environment.

>>17456078
When were we ever not fucked? hint: we have always been fucked. Stop falling for the "past is a happy place" meme. Things have always been shit. How do people look at nature or read about biology and expect anything to end happy? Life is about competition. We're just results of the previous winners of this competition and we'll either spread our seed and have part of ourself persist or be forgotten in the dust. That's how life will always be. The idea it should be anything different is falling for the bullshit you were raised on from tv, movies, and commercials. Everyone was miserable making all of those shows we call happy memories. Stop expecting something you'll never get. We're all dying. We have always been fucked and if that makes you a sad cunt then you'll be judged as a loser by the competition that is life. Will you fight? Or will you coware like dog?

>>17456174
It becomes communism over time.

>>17461252
exactly why more innovation is needed

>>17461257
>he doesn't know about the primordial Golden Age
>he thinks conflict is bad

>>17461257
based

>>17461257
>Things have always been shit.
Hate you people more than words could ever describe. Same faggots that went around saying /b/ was always shit when it degenerated into a faggot porn board where everyone just shares their cock pics and shoves shit up their ass.

>>17461266
No, innovation is what got us here to begin with. We need less innovation, and more simplicity. We need people to live simpler, and ultimately happier, lives. This rampant, materialist push for innovation is a huge problem. Scientific innovation is an indispensable facet of materialism, which necessarily leads to human alienation and subjugation under inhuman rules and regulations.

>>17461257
>it's always been this bad, never fight for a better world, accept your place
another american naturalizing his misery again. I despise cunts like you

>>17461266
innovation is gay. innovate my cock and balls.

>>17461187
>The people who espouse such thing, essentially, are the lapdogs for corporations and governments; absolute purveyors of a consumerist religion.
Yet they think they're "the resistance". It's almost hilarious.
>>17461225
Yea, and you're not even White. Imagine how WE feel. I think I differ from most /pol/acks in the fact that I am extremely xenophilic. I obsess over other people groups, cultures, histories, perspectives. Just because I'm interested in Chinese history or Hindu ethno-nationalism DOESN'T FUCKING MEAN I WANT THE UK TO BE 15% WHITE. That's what I mean when I say it's so tiresome. I love Europeans, I love what my people have accomplished, but I can't and won't squander my life trying to save a handful of people who don't know they're drowning and wouldn't want to be saved even if they did know. I wouldn't even be successful. There needs to be some kind of mass upheaval (there won't be) if Whites were to wake up and realize their predicament. Germany and USA minority white by 2045, UK by 2060, Sweden by 2080. I can't save those who don't want to saved. "Maybe I should just fucking leave and assimilate into a non-suicidal society" is a really sad thought for someone like me to have

>>17461285
How? Good luck being happy when you're constantly anxious about the weather and famines

>>17461288
Oh so chop it off?

>>17461298
life is enriched by death. it isn't pleasant, but it's real. no one was ever happy before 1875, got it bro

>>17461225
>if this had been tried with Chinese people or Arabs, they would have utterly rejected it.
It's currently happening and they don't. lol Pakis and Arabs are beginning to pull their kids out of school or just leaving western countries in general because their children drop their values by age ten.

>>17461298
>How?
Are you seriously asking me how scientific innovation created the modern world, with all of its hyper-destructive wars, over-farming, pollution, STD outbreaks, nuclear war/poisoning, etc.? All of the problems of the past pale in comparison to what we witness now.

>>17461306
kys tranny

>>17461285
Based. Hyper-materialism is a massive issue and nobody seems to realize it.

>>17456174
Capitalism = the base system of being. A tree grows a seed, the bird tries to eat the seed, it drops on the ground, it fertilizes. The trade off is a matter of capitalism, fundamentally. Without movement, which is capitalization upon the moment, nothing would exist. If capitalism wasn't, communist revolutionaries wouldn't have to kill a leader to remove him; this example is a trade deal with public awareness. There is not a single system that doesn't 'profit'. Basically, this is bad because lots of people don't get what they want. So, a legitimate method, in that it abides by the laws of reality, is that you can use linguistic manipulation. Communism is just this, so that a group of people have something favorable for them rather than the person/people against them.

>>17461298
Seriously, people like you are like infants who think if you keep scratching your eye, it'll eventually stop itching. You always refuse to see your habit for what it is out of stubbornness and the desperate urge to scratch that itch. If you want your eye to heal, you have to stop fucking trying to fix it and leave it be. "Progress" is both a spook and ultimately a fatal temptation.

>>17458108
Which Ellul should I read?

>>17458108
>>17461362
Seconding this. I read Ted and liked him but don't know what to do with it.

>>17461357
Like the people leaving California in droves after destroying it with their votes, and then voting for the same policies in Texas

>>17461362
>>17461370
Both Tech and Propaganda are good. Also pick up the followup to Tech.

>>17461382
So The Technological Society, Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes, and what was the other one?

Two men, fighting to the death, forever, from the beginning to the end of time. Some choose to spectate, others cheer, others cry, some even ignore it, some start their own fights, some construct elaborate civilization systems in order to fight, and the system becomes so big that the big fight is scheduled to happen in a million years so long as everyone keeps on working. The system becomes so big that people don't even have to work for the fight anymore, just wait.

>>17460542
T-thanks

>>17461289
>Germany and USA minority white by 2045, UK by 2060, Sweden by 2080
As I said, this is a good thing. Whites may have created the West, but they have proven they cannot continue it anymore. It will fall to other races to do that.

>>17460542
Have you looked into the story of Prometheus and Epimetheus? The Greeks knew exactly what would happen to us.

>>17461348
>Capitalism = the base system of being.
AHAHAHAHAAHAH read a book you fucking nigger retard

>>17461402
Not sure what the title is in english I'm sure you can find it if you look it up. "Le Système technicien". Probably translates to "The Technological System" there's also "Le bluf technologique".

Read
The Technological Society
The Technological System
The Technological Bluff
Critique of the New Commonplaces
Propaganda
The Political Illusion

>>17461379
international brazilians

>>17461452
To add onto this, Prometheus and Epimetheus are the fundamental Western historical dialectic, first noticed by Hegel. Hegel never drew the connection between this ancient Greek myth and his historical dialectic, but it's there in plain sight for anyone with keen eyes. Western civilization is essentially a titanic dialectic which will only be saved by a Hercules, who cuts Prometheus out of his bind.

>>17461447
>It will fall to other races to do that.
It will fall.
>>17461480
Ty Jacques

>>17461357
>>17461313
Ask yourself, is it the only result that capitalism could have produced?

>>17461607
Yes. It is a legitimate teleology, but as I said, it's not merely restrained to capitalism. It's the entire materialistic tendency.

>>17461607
Yeah capitalism, as with every other faggot political and economic regime always results in a bunch of buttbuddies being in charge and fucking everything up for their own entertainment.

>>17461610
>>17461620
Isn't the fundamental problem in modernity the approach towards energy scarcity?

>>17461634
The fundamental problem in modernity is a bunch of faggots suck and fuck eachother to the top of the totem pole, invite all their friends along, then make varying decrees on how deep they can fuck you up the ass and how much of your shit they can steal.

>>17461634
No, the fundamental problem is the tendency towards complexification, driven by the desire for more of everything for everyone. For example, even just to keep the global population (mostly) well-fed. Energy scarcity is a symptom arising from other causes and not a fundamental problem.

>>17461648
Isn't that only in the financial sector?
>>17461652
Well you need a fairly complex but free system in order to fight off malnutrition at a global level

>>17461718
>Well you need a fairly complex but free system in order to fight off malnutrition at a global level
Are you starting to understand?

>>17461718
>Isn't that only in the financial sector?
It's in every sector. Every sector is just about sucking cock till you suck enough people's cocks to get people to suck your cock.

>>17461726
>>17461731
With regards to these, what do you propose as an alternative?

>>17461764
Don't reinforce the suck and fuck cycle. Some shithead expects you to rape yourself and suck their cock, and they propose to compensate you by buttfucking you and taking all your shit, don't do it.

>>17461463
Books are a capitalist scheme

>>17460368
I thought laissez-fair economics advocates are against safety nets, unions etc. But in this case I agree with everything you said.

>>17459376
Not him but you're a real dumb fuck aren't you? Most of good land is owned now and the prices are manipulated by rich landowners, all kinds of goods are regulated and bureaucratized now. Maybe he can survive himself but no woman will go with him to make a family and hence it's an unsustainable alternative.