/lit/ - Literature

I don't keep a diary, but ask away desu

>>17428446
>I've become unsure whether or not it was just dysthymia, apathy or some other minor condition of prolonged feeling of detachment or indifference towards living my life.
you're thinking too much about it, the two books you need are:
-a man asleep - Perec
-will o the wisp - drieu la rochelle

>>17428446
Depression is not real though.

My diary and suicide notes

>>17428584
>-a man asleep - Perec

didnt like the conclusion all that match

>>17428907
Sure it is. Depression stands for the subjective feeling of "down-spiritedness" that is caused by a negatively life-altering event or experience and transmitted/put into effect through your brain's chemical inactivity.

>>17429192
I have plenty of those myself already, so I don't think I need any more of them.

>>17428557
Umm... Well, okay. Could you describe depression in about 150 words?

>>17428584
>a man asleep - Perec
>story of a student who one day decides to be indifferent about the world
You sure this is about depression?
>will o the wisp - drieu la rochelle
>story of a 30-year-old man who after military service, followed by a few years of cosmopolitan, decadent life, has become burned out, addicted to heroin and tired of living.
Sounds interesting. I'll check that one out.

>>17431770
>You sure this is about depression?
I'm myself a depressed fag and this novel hit hard. It doesn't focus on the negative thoughts you can have but rather on the apathy it creates and it does an excellent job at that. Also the student never really "decides" to be indifferent and the novel is written in the second person which is great.
Here's an extract:
>Just as you no longer choose your films, entering indiscriminately the first cinema you come to at around eight, nine or ten in the evening, the merest shadow of a spectator in the darkened auditorium, the shadow of a shadow watching as various combinations of shadow and light, form and dissolve on a rectangular oblong, ceaselessly sketching the same adventure: music, enchantment, suspense; just as you no longer choose your meals, as you no longer bother to vary them, to work your way right through the three hundred or so combinations that your five one-franc coins could procure for you at the counter of the Petite Source, those five one-franc coins which represent one third of your daily allowance, chinking in your pocket; just as you no longer choose when to sleep, or what to read, or what to wear...
>You let yourself go, you allow yourself to be carried along: all it takes is for the crowd to be going up or going down the Champs Elysées, all it takes is for a grey back a few yards in front of you to turn off suddenly down a grey street; or else a light or an absence of light, a noise or an absence of noise, a wall, a group of people, a tree, some water, a porch, a fence, advertising posters, paving stones, a pedestrian crossing, a shopfront, a luminous stop/go sign, the name plate of a street, the red sign outside a tobacconist's, a haberdasher's stall, a flight of steps, a traffic island...
>You walk or you do not walk. You sleep or you do not sleep. You walk down your six flights of stairs, you climb back up again. You buy Le Monde or you do not buy it. You eat or you do not eat. You sit down, you stretch out, you remain standing, you slip into the darkened auditorium of a cinema. You light a cigarette. You cross the street, you cross the Seine, you stop, you start again. You play pinball or you don't.

>>17431770
>Depression stands for the subjective feeling
>subjective feeling
>subjective
it sure it is?. melancholy, sadness, feeling like shit, all that is basic human emotion, depression as a concept exist because that feelings are "sick", they are "bad". and you need to cure it. is just an scam, just like sins used to be.

>>17431853
So theres no difference between melancholy and depression symptoms wise?

>>17431893
>symptoms
read it again.

Anatomy of melancholy.

>>17431770
The chemical imbalances theory has been debunked for a long time but normies can't seem to let go of it.

>>17428446
Your wish to categorise your subjective experience as x or y phenomena over getting some relief seems strange.
>not in the business of fixing myself
I suppose you're in the right place for that.

>>17431946
My bad for phrasing it wrong. I meant to ask if melancholy and depression have the same characteristic in person?

>>17432204
depression is melancholy as a disease. more or less.
melancholy is open to interpretation, depression is not. its a psychology tool to make people happy and content like they supposedly should feel.

>>17432334
Is melancholia a character trait like green eyes or it just happens to you at some point in life?

Noonday demon

>>17432346
what is for you?. is more a feeling. an emotion. depression pathogolize an emotion. im not an expert or something. i think people who think depression is a biological misfortune is people with poor introspection in general.

>>17432451
So you can cure yourself of melancholia by just applying introspection?

>>17431853
>depression as a concept exist because that feelings are "sick", they are "bad". and you need to cure it. is just an scam, just like sins used to be.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that bad feelings ought to be cured out of existence. You can't always feel happy or be content and comfortable. Sometimes you just feel totally shit and that's fine. Such emotions have their place in our lives. What I'm referring to are the prolonged instances of such emotions that start to chip away at your life and its value/meaning to you. Depression becomes a problem when the feelings become overwhelming to the extend that you lose interest in the outside world for 2+ years.

>>17431820
>You walk or you do not walk. You sleep or you do not sleep. You walk down your six flights of stairs, you climb back up again. You buy Le Monde or you do not buy it. You eat or you do not eat. You sit down, you stretch out, you remain standing, you slip into the darkened auditorium of a cinema. You light a cigarette. You cross the street, you cross the Seine, you stop, you start again. You play pinball or you don't.
Yeah, this sounds like apathy. I guess I'll have to check it out now. Thanks for the rec.

>>17432033
>The chemical imbalances theory has been debunked for a long time but normies can't seem to let go of it.
But anon, almost everything about the brain is chemical. All I tried to convey was that the chemicals act as the mediator of our conscious sensations/external stimuli like negative life experiences. I'm not saying that that's all there is to it, as the thoughts you have in your everyday life somehow affect your mood as well, or at least that's my flimsy understanding of contemporary cognitive psychology. What I'm saying is that the chemical explanation has its part in explaining subjective feelings. I mean, psychiatrists wouldn't couple prescription drugs with CBT if they didn't think that they would work.

>>17432511
>Depression becomes a problem when the feelings become overwhelming to the extend that you lose interest in the outside world for 2+ years.
To clarify, I meant to say that it becomes a problem at that point when such emotions persist for 2+ years.

>>17432480
introspection help to understand why you feel like you feel. like i said. depression is the concept of "melancholia as a disease". you say "cure" again and again but melancholia dont need to be cured. or that is my point. depression, on the other hand. comes as a disease from the beginning.

>Depression becomes a problem when the feelings become overwhelming to the extend that you lose interest in the outside world for 2+ years.
i dont think this is a problem. i know it sound like it is. but this is like cut out a possibility of the mind. its like denying suicide. its like denying deep sadness and deep hopelessness thoughts. i know it sound harsh. but i think people are encouraging people to lie to themselves. or to uncover some deep thoughts about things.

to me this sound like you need to feel melancholy in a balanced way because you have to see life in a concrete perspective.

>>17432033
Of course, if you think >>17432511 is all wrong, I'd be more than happy to check out any books that you recommend that will right my erroneous view of contemporary psychology and its understanding of depression. I mean, that's literally why this thread is here - for giving book recommendations on depression.

>>17432586
the second part of this was for >>17432511

fuck

Depression is partially biological. Some people are predisposed to long bouts of sadness and withdrawal.

You should really consider this a biological problem and not a philosophical problem. Humans are living animals before they are rational. As living animals they have certain requirements. You can make a dog depressed by not giving him something to do, not taking him outside often, not comforting him — what about humans?

Human depression can be reduced by nature exposure, activity (mental and physical), socializing, experiencing new sensory things, exploring new places, and having more hobbies. Humans do not need to “understand” anything to be happy. They just need to keep a healthy lifestyle which requires social support and constant engagement with things. Consider engagement to be a method of reducing excess thought, which can cause depression. Humans aren’t exactly designed to have nothing to do all day.

>>17432605
JUST DONT THINK!!!

>>17428446
Read the Russians, preferably Dostoevsky and then Shestov.

>>17432599
No worries, I did pick up on it. I'm just having trouble in understanding what you're trying to say.

>but i think people are encouraging people to lie to themselves. or to uncover some deep thoughts about things.
"People are encouraged to lie to themselves", was it? How do you mean? Is it the psychologists trying to lie to other people for profit or do you mean that everyone is using depression as an excuse for how they are behaving or something else? What about " or to uncover some deep thoughts about things."? Were you trying to say that depression is being idolized and that people are thereby being encouraged to have depression in order to uncover profound insights about... stuff while or what?

>to me this sound like you need to feel melancholy in a balanced way because you have to see life in a concrete perspective.
Are you saying that what I wrote in >>17432511
about emotions comes across as me encouraging people to get their emotional world into a balance or that what I wrote seems like I need to feel melancholic/depressive in order to gain an understanding of these emotions and their relation from a wholly another, more concrete perspective?

>>17428446
The Anatomy of Melancholy is really long and sounds exactly like what you are looking for in terms of deep diving into all those aspects of being sad
>The Anatomy of Melancholy, What it is: With all the Kinds, Causes, Symptomes, Prognostickes, and Several Cures of it. In Three Maine Partitions with their several Sections, Members, and Subsections. Philosophically, Medicinally, Historically, Opened and Cut Up

>>17432688
there is some deep sadness in things, deep, radical sadness and hopelessness. death, loss and deception. i think trying to view this things as opportunities to "overcome yourself" or know you better, or just seeing it like something inevitable that we dont need to look too close.
i think this is a problem and make the world a little more false and phony. what we have to do with this problems?, what we have to do with deep feelings about sadness and loss?. i dont know. but seeing it as a disease i think is peak cope. we dont have to be balanced or happy. and i know it sounds wrong, in a way. but i talking about honesty more than anything.

>>17432511
Psychiatrists prescribed antidepressants to put you into an altered state where you are cut off from your low mood - it is no way curing your depression - although you may go on to have experiences which invalidate the core beliefs about yourself, others and the world which maintain your depression (which is why in the UK it is recommended to have psychotherapy with antidepressants simultaneously.)

A good book on Psychopharmacology is The Myth of the Chemical Cure by Joanne Moncrieff.

The Weariness of the Self is also an excellent book about the history of depression.

>>17432605
>You should really consider this a biological problem and not a philosophical problem.
I'm considering it as a sociological as well as a biological problem (with hints of philosophical conceptualization thinly spread around the concoction). It's like you said, depression is partially biological, and as such it necessitates investigations into the other part(s) of the equation in order to gain an in-depth understanding of it. I do agree with a lot of what you've said, especially with the claim that "Humans do not need to 'understand' anything to be happy. " You are totally right, being happy is the product of living appropriately, which ought to come as naturally to everyone as breathing owing to the fact that we're all living animals. The problem, however, is that humans aren't living in accordance to their animal nature in a natural environment anymore; our rational, conscious mind is intervening and overriding our natural programming. I don't think this is a bad thing per se or that we ought to return to the primordial times. It just means that now we're going to have to rediscover our nature and overcome the obstacles that we've created by applying reason, and gaining a better understanding of our nature.

>>17432984
Quite right. I never thought antidepressants were some miracle cure for depression. Maybe the way you're phrasing it is somewhat unfamiliar to me (in particular the part "Psychiatrists prescribed antidepressants to put you into an altered state where you are cut off from your low mood") but all in all, I agree with you... I don't have anything to add to that... just wanted to type this out...*ahem*... yeah...

>>17432994
>>17433011
>>17432689
Thanks for the recs, anons!

>>17433176
>It just means that now we're going to have to rediscover our nature and overcome the obstacles that we've created by applying reason, and gaining a better understanding of our nature.
this is what i say in other posts. people still give as a fact that you shouldnt be sad or thinking negative about the world. by this premise you get to all the others "we are not natural like animals and we are not happy because of that" or "reason fucked us up but with more sophisticated reason we gonna make it". and all kinds of deluded and delirious ideas.
basically there are simple truths that all you dont want to see. life is not about happiness. its not about well being. you are fighting for an idea. we suffer, and i say this in the simpler way possible. but anyway, who cares?, you only want to be happy, right?.

paul tillich courage to be

a liberal theologean who is a existential phenominominalist, talks about different perspectives of courage throughought history, cool book

DSM-5

Academic or novels?

>>17428446
OP if you are still here take a look at this. Not directly about depression but psychology in general. Imho that's more helpful as you get an understanding of how your psyche works and how you can change it.

>>17436437
Saved! Thanks m8.

>>17435411
>>17436437
>DSM-5
I have looked into it a bit and what came out of that was an understanding that the DSM-5 (in comparison to the ICD-10) isn't as realiable mostly due to it being susceptible to drug company influence moreso than the ICD-10. Nevertheless, I've read that the DSM-5 has more useful definitions for the illnesses.
Any opinions concerning these points?

>>17435429
Academic mostly, but I'm not against novel recommendations if they are worthwhile.

>>17436671
The DSM doesn't explain anything but is more of a tool for professionals to decide on a diagnosis based on agreed-upon criteria and measurable symptoms. At least that's how I understand it. I think it's good to get an idea of what could be wrong with someone and what mental illnesses are worth to look further into. It's nothing objective or definite though. It's known that psychologists make wrong diagnosis or two different professionals make two different observations. Like with everything you have to have a critical outlook on the DSM. It cannot replace self observation. It's not really anymore reliable than Wikipedia even I think. I even remember that I felt like 'oh I must have this certain mental illness I meet most criteria' but then I did not go to a professional and kind of forgot about it and life went on and nothing really happened, almost like those mental illnesses are only present because the linguistic and scientific (never take psychology for a real science though, nobody really knows what they are talking about) concept exists.

>>17436671
moment of freedom by Jens Bjornboe

It's a novel by a dude who killed himself later, but as a long-term depressed person it described depression better than anything else I've read.

>>17428446
If you never had suicidal thoughts or a plan then it wasn't real depression

No one fully knows what it is or why it happens
Don't over-exert yourself trying to understand such a thing

Llevo tanto tiempo pensando en esto y quizás llegue a la conclusión de mi mas posible error.
Durante varios años he estado probado de todo para disminuir mi entorno mental depresivo, sin lograr obtener resultados óptimos para yo considerar una mejoría o estabilidad en mi.
Las luces de mi entorno han jugado un papel muy importante en todo esto, la mente y tus memorias, recuerdos y todo aquello que fue y nunca paso, aquello que anhele y solo desee por gusto y pasión me hicieron darme cuenta que todo esto es simplemente un sueño borroso, nublado a la vista sin una posible solución, y al mismo tiempo la comodidad y el placer de decir una vez mas lo intente pero ahora solo veo la posibilidad de ser yo.

>>17437788
This is plain wrong. I had my most imminent suicidal phase when I was not in a depressed state. Almost in an uplifted state where I got the power to go through with the act. When depressed I was way too lethargic and without energy to seriously consider suicide.

>>17437796
Isnt it purely biological/genetic predisposotion like tempraments?

>>17438942
No

Depression is unfortunately a very real condition and I really have to swallow my pride to say this but I was one of those people who didn’t really believe in it until it happened to me. I always chalked it up to them doing something wrong.
>oh they probably don’t exercise
>well duh they are depressed they aren’t working a job they like
>well maybe if they ate a balanced diet they wouldn’t have these problems!
>depression just means you have a working ego! change your life situation and your depression will go away

I am thankful that mine is very mild and seems to be an acute issue brought on by life circumstances and not some sort of unexplained chronic disorder - but I really feel for those people. Once it happens, it’s like a deep channel that you carve into your brain and I honestly don’t know if it ever goes away but it does get less painful

>>17438181
Understanding this is what really switched my understanding of depression. It is quite literally a physical disorder; some sort of dopaminergic movement disorder akin to schizophrenia or Parkinson’s disease. I know this to be true at the extreme end of depression although I can’t really comment on what exactly generalized melancholy is (best described as perhaps a ‘slump’)

>>17439162
Seems to be mostly a serotonin issue (although what pathways and systems are involved I really have no idea). I also wanna place a greater emphasis on its complete dispassionate state on top of the lethargic and debilitating mood. Actual torture.

>>17437777
>Jens Bjornboe
>For 25 years Jens Bjørneboe was a center of unrest in Norwegian cultural life: Passionately concerned with contemporary problems in nearly all their aspects, controversial and with the courage to be so, with a conscious will to carry things to extremes. He was not to be pigeonholed. He dropped in on many philosophical and political movements, but couldn't settle down in any of them. He was a wanderer, always traveling on in search of what was for him the truth—and he was a free man, in that he always ruthlessly followed his innermost intentions. Perhaps he could say, like Søren Kierkegaard, that "subjectivity is truth," for he knew no other guide than his personal conviction and his own impulses—but he related not merely to himself; his deepest concern was society and the person in society. His subjective grasp always involved the totality.
Sounds like a pretty wild guy. I'll have to look into it. Thanks for the recommendations!

OP here, addressed to everyone. I want to thank you all for partaking in this thread. I have gotten plenty of books to read, maybe even more than I can handle due to work, but each and every book that was suggested to me is valuable as a guide in my endeavour of trying to understand depression.

Here's all the books that were recommended on this thread, if there is anyone out there who wants to gain a deeper understanding of depression. Also, check out >>17436437 's image for books on psychology in general.

>Perec - A Man Asleep
>Drieu La Rochelle - Will O' the Wisp (also: The Fire Within)
>Andrew Solomon - Noonday Demon
>Dostoevsky (unspecified)
>Shestov (unspecified)
>Robert Burton - The Anatomy of melancholy
>Joanne Moncrieff - The Myth of the Chemical Cure
>Alain Ehrenberg - The Weariness of the Self
>Paul Tillich - Courage to Be
>Jens Bjornboe - Moment of Freedom (part of a trilogy)

Once again, thank you all for the comments and recommendations. OP out.

>>17439973
If you like The Fire Within you should definitely check out the two film adaptations of it too. They're interesting enough in their own right to be worth experiencing as well.

>>17439973
I posted the chart. You don't have to read every book from it. Pick whatever seems interesting. Don't overwhelm yourself either way.

ba,p