/lit/ - Literature

>>17412624
Here's some writing some the last thread. I'll critique someone else's writing if I need to, although I don't know enough to give valuable feedback.

Robert was quite the artist and no one knew how.

His unassuming demeanor, plain blue uniform, and monotone voice gave his peers indication of this. He had the presence of an empty breeze, and the demeanor of one too: drifting in and out of school rooms with utmost precaution, as though making sure not to change a single thing. Sad times and happy times would come and go but Robert stayed, same as always. Maybe there was more of him by the end of school. Perhaps the peach fuzz under his chin wasn't there when he began. No one knew for sure. Few could remember the droning geek that hovered around the classrooms, his hollow pleasantries. Even fewer wanted to remember.

Those who chose to remember him did so only to ridicule him. ‘Domo Arigato, Mr. Roberto.’ ‘Virginator 2000.’ ‘Oblivion NPC.’ When names wouldn’t give them the same satisfaction, these lively little bullies would harass Robert to no end. They could run away with his books, or trip him during a game of soccer, but he didn’t care. ‘Mr. Roberto’ didn’t feel hurt. ‘Mr. Roberto’ didn’t feel at all. He had no soul and nothing to say. Even his parents, whom the kids had heard came from the same factory plant in Detroit, didn’t seem to care.

So it came as a surprise to everyone when Robert was enrolled into a prestigious art school.

Gimme some thoughts on how to improve this. How to up the stakes, increase tension, etc.?

>>17412652
The young hipster girls that followed him there on their parent’s money couldn’t believe someone like Robert could get into the same school. The ‘Uncle Tom Companion Bot’ was probably here with ulterior motives. What kind of perverted loser spent all his time in odd jobs - and yes, they knew about all his odd jobs - just to leer at women, and then pay to do it again in an art studio? Thankfully, the nice boys from the baseball team were here to watch them paint, and keep an eye on Robert in case he did something funny.

Robert fondled his paint brush. He glanced at the people around him, shook the thoughts out of his head, and began painting.

Stroke followed stroke. Thick egyptian lines hashed the canvas, haphazardly framing as they went deeper. Followed by lighter gashes from the drying paint, smudged around the edges, like a bruise on a child from his alcoholic father. A thin veneer of green followed, spread around further. Unfocus, unbridled, but ultimately directionless. It covered the canvas equally, with no character to add. The blue and green mingle into thin disheveled curves that reminded Robert of his mother.

He picked up a thicker brush.

Suddenly springing to life, Robert’s body carved curved strokes into the green of the bottom half of the canvas. Up and down, up and down. This job was repetitive, and so was the next. But through the mind numbing black, he persevered. He had to persevere, just like the brittle grass he was drawing. He continued until the bell rang, then until the paints ran dry, and then until a teacher tapped on his shoulder: “Time’s up.”
Robert sighed. He took a step back to admire his work; the teacher was already watching in awe. A gentle, withering leaf curved against the harsh blue of the cold sky, dropping her dew into the grass Robert painstakingly grew below. The leaf’s stem and shadow separated the night from the budding grass, almost making it feel brighter in the light of the dew.

‘Tears’ is what he called it.

Robert was quite the artist, and no one knew why.


This isn't an excerpt from something I'm working on, so it doesn't mean a whole lot. Just a short thing I worked on last night so people could judge my writing. Any and all feedback appreciated, especially if its about the quality of writing. Honesty is greatly appreciated.

>>17412652
>>17412662
Post this on Microsoft word or whatever you use
and screenshot it so it only takes a single post.

>>17412670
That's a much better idea, I'll remember it anon. Thanks.

>>17412701
Do it now.

Pokemon Jones walks down the back street of the ass end of nowhere. He hated asses. He was supposed to be meeting up with Lassy a local girl who works at a burlesque theatre -emphasis on the '-re'- and was proud of it. She had been having trouble with a local guy. Some stupid putz with gambling debt she was dating. Lassy thought ol Jerry was cheating on her so she hired ''Jonesie'' to give him a once over. The acid bath was heavy today. Pollution was up 10% today. Jones wore his acidbreaker.

Pokemon stepped through the saloon doors, they shut with an electronic whirr without swinging. He walked right up to the bar.
'Harry here?'
'You mean Jerry? Yeah he's over there.'
Pokemon Jones sit and spun mouth agape, a loose cigarette letting out blue embers hanging out of his mouth. There he was. Jerry. Jerry the snake. Jerry the lake. Jerry the shit on a stick.
'Jerry' yelled Pokemon Jones with an exclamation.
'What?'
'Get over here.'
The lumbering frame of Big Jerry came into Pokemon's frame. Pokemon was a skinny man with a disproportional beergut in a lime green windbreaker and bleached hair. He was not impressive. Neither was Jerry thought Pokemon but did not say aloud.
'What do you need, Shamus?'
'Do you fuck men, Jerry?'
Jerry took a step back, his eyes wide.
'What the fuck did you say?'
'All I'm saying and hearing and seeing is that you got a beautiful girl here named Lassy but she says you don't come to bed and you're in the red parts of town. I'm wondering if you're in the gay parts too.'
'Shamus you got a lot of fucking nerve.'
'Answer the question Jerry' yelled Pokemon,' DO YOU FUCK MEN?' The entire bar was quiet now and staring at the pair.
'No I'm not a fucking fag.'
'Prove it Jerry. Now or say goodbye to your girl.'
'I ain't provin nuff-'
'OH CAN IT JERRY'
A bodacious babe in a black bodice seperated herself from the crowd.
'Jones? Yeah I know the fucker. Jones.' a heavily Jersey accent came out of the woman. There she was. Cornelia.
'Jones I been fucking the fucker he's not a fuckin fag. He's a broke loser and you tell Lassy she can have him.'
Cornelia stormed out. Jerry quietly shuffled out the door mumbling about going to see Lassy. The bar started up again, quick to forget. And there sat Pokemon Jones. Exactly five bucks richer when he got back to Lassy.

>>17412720

>>17412743
Now delete your other two posts.

>>17412624
Currently trying out Pound's method of writing

>1. Direct treatment of the “thing” whether subjective or objective.
>2. To use absolutely no word that does not contribute to the presentation.
3. As regarding rhythm: to compose in the sequence of the musical phrase, not in sequence of a metronome.

Attempting to write with the nice little fancy words I prefer is hard and pushing a rhythm on it actually makes it very nice, i don't intend to stick writing like this but it's good to gain this perspective. I'm attempting a longish poem right now half a page long but I want to read like 3-5 I've never done one that long ever.

>>17412757
reach***
without***
I'll admit I have not been sleeping well

>>17412659
The dialogue should be in all caps for starters

>>17412743
It's overwritten. The register seems outdated, like 19th century, but at the same time doesn't ring true, especially with the contemporary references to oblivion and the like, so it comes across (rightly or wrongly) as pretentious affectation. Even if all references to the modern world were cut off, and you were writing a POV novel set in the 19th century, the impression would be one of artificiality. The flow isn't quite right, either. First sentence is clumsy - "quite the artist and no one knew how" doesn't read well at all and is off-putting.

There are some better elements. The prose improves as it goes on, I think - "Robert fondled... began painting" is probably the best sentence. However, it isn't a very good extract on the whole. It isn't completely awful, but it's very amateurish, and reads like the work of a beginner. That's okay - everyone has to get this stuff out the way before they get better.

So how to get better? Well, on a larger scale, the story isn't very interesting. Why should I care about Robert and why he was a good artist? What relevance does it have to the overarching story? It's hard to judge this when looking at just an extract, as it's out of context, but if this was the beginning of a story I wouldn't read on. That's not because the subject matter is prosaic, either - portrait of the artist, Mrs dalloway, Madame bovary etc are all prosaic, and I adore realism, but they have hooks that get you invested from the outset.

On a smaller scale, you need to improve your technical abilities too. First sentence doesn't strike right, second is okay Flow-wise but "gave his peers indication of this" is awkward and just smacks of the unnecessarily complicated, clumsy, awkward phrasing which detracts from the bits where the prose actually does flow. Next line, the colon isn't really best used here - a comma would be better, with the second part of the sentence trimmed. "And the demeanour of one" or "the demeanour of one, too" or, better still, "He had the presence and demeanour of an empty breeze", OR, best yet, "he was like a breeze", which is more succinct and avoids using the word demeanour for the second sentence in a row.

I won't go on longer, but I'd recommend you keep writing until you find your voice, because it's really clear you haven't yet. I'm not saying that to be a dick, I want you to be encouraged and push yourself to keep writing, and especially at this stage to keep reading, too.

>>17412865
what a pretentious piece of paper

>>17412871
Not really. I'd add Woolf, James and Proust to the 'must know' section, and emphasise reading essays over the biographies and journals they recommended, but overall it's pretty solid. The old greats became great by reading the old greats. Someone who doesn't read, or rarely reads, will never ever ever write a half-decent book.

>>17412865
Good Post.

>>17412931
I disagree wholeheartedly. That just sounds like academia gatekeeping to be honest. Nobody who ever reads them will ever write a half-decent book? That's ridiculous. That's like saying nobody who hasn't listened to Bach will make a half-decent album, or nobody who hasn't watched Citizen Kane will make a half-decent movie. These things are demonstrably false.
If you want a truly masterful work that pushes the medium forward should you read the greats? Yeah, probably. If you just want to make something decent or even good. It probably isn't necessary.
Besides following a list as soulless and meticulous as that won't lead you to the great passionate work. Your work will be just as incapable of being 'half-decent'. Stuff like that seeks to remove the art from the Art. What's even the point in that case?

>>17412931
>>17412865
nah. everything i need to know about writing i learned from my favorite movies.

>>17412972
Dismissing the writers of that list as soulless betrays your lack of knowledge of the sublime beauty of their work. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, anon, because as I'm sure you realise Literature, and English Literature in particular, relies heavily on the traditions of the past and is hugely influenced by what came before, even if only to the extent that writers choose how to differ from their predecessors. But if you want to learn painting at a top academy, you study and imitate the old masters. If you learn music at a great conservatoire, you study and play the greats of that particular field. Likewise the heavyweights of Literature are indebted to the writers who came before them - even Shakespeare read, borrowed, imitated and so on - and reading the prose styles of the greatest novelists ever to have lived is far more instructive and rewarding than reading genre fiction schlock for someone who actually aspires to be a great writer of literary fiction.

Personally everything I need to know about writing I learned from smoking a joint and watching a babbling brook.
The ironic thing is that if any of you actually understood those books you read you'd know that you don't want to be an academic, even if it's an autodidactic one.

>>17412989
I never implied any of those writers were soulless.

>>17412989
The spectrum is wider than just half-decent and great. People who don't want to be '''''''''''great'''''''''' writers are not somehow subhuman. You should spend less time reading at this point and more time reflecting. Your viewpoint on writing is very skewed and bizarre. Almost corporate.

>>17412972
The latest nickelback album isn't comparable to the top composers living today and citizen kane is hardly comparable to low budget rom-coms. If you want to write the book equivalent, which I suppose would be cheap derivative genre fiction, then reading the greats isn't important, but if I recall correctly that image is from a graduate writing program which has produced a Nobel Prize winner and 3 booker prize winners, among others. Why not aspire to be great? And the classics are well worth reading besides, because they're the pinnacle of pleasure when it comes to reading literature. I recommend 'why read the classics' by italo calvino, and/or 'how to read and why' by Harold Bloom. Or better yet, order Dubliners, Mrs Dalloway, Swann's Way, Lolita, The Sound and The Fury, Heart of Darkness, Anna Karenina, and the short stories of Anton Chekhov and prepare to have your writing, mind, and life altered in a fundamental way.

>>17412972
Yes, academics trying to justify their prestige and salary (and obfuscate their lack of achievement). Most people read books with no understanding of how story functions. Once one understands, they don't need to read any particular book or set of books. Maybe they pick up an interesting technique from a book, but consciously forcing it into their writing style would have a very small overall effect. One can learn grammar, syntax, and so on without any idea of how to write a good story.

People who read more than they write are not good writers, they are good readers.

>>17413019
>you're either a great or petty genre fiction
>genre fiction is terrible shameful work
You have the pettiness of a schoolboy. You hunger for trophies and rewards and recognition and secret societies. I am obviously not arguing against reading any of those authors. You refuse to see any reason. Fine then. Good luck.

>>17413010
It's the opposite of corporate. I loathe the modern attitude of settling for mediocrity, publishers and authors content to push out middling and forgettable novels aimed at bored housewives and dilettantes. It's all to reap a profit and keep moving. No wonder the art form is dying. Yet look at McCarthy, Ishiguro, Pynchon, Marias, Houllebecq - these are today's titans, and while posterity will decide where they belong in the Canon, at least they're trying something different. In Blood Meridian or The Remains of the Day (even, unpopular choice, The Unconsoled) you can plainly see that these are writers full of passion, desire, creativity, and the drive to produce great art, to be amongst the best. Who would want to settle for less?

>>17413026
what is brain disease like

>>17413019
i dont want to write nickelback i want to write an indie record that's underappreciated but gains a cult following because of how much soul it has

>>17413043
There is value to the folk song, the homely tale, and the B-movie. Arguably more value. But you have been blinded or willingly blind yourself. I hope you chase greatness and I hope greatness finds you. I hope you come face to face with greatness one day and see where you stand.

>>17413039
I will admit I dismiss genre fiction out of hand, because I do take writing and reading very seriously. I would rather not write at all then write and not be thought of as among the best. That hunger is found is most writers. And in spite of everything, I've been published and well-received (so far). I think you misunderstand something about my premise, because I cannot see why anyone with a passion for literature would disagree with me.

>>17413065
Your hunger for external prestige will be your downfall.

>>17413065
>I would rather not write at all than write and not be thought of as among the best.

You probably think you're cool and unique, but I've seen a thousand arrogant elitists like yourself come and go. So quick to critique, yet so slow to produce anything of value.

>>17413065
>I would rather not write at all then write and not be thought of as among the best.

>saying to read "the greats" to become a good writer
More like an unpublishable writer.

You should read them and modern works if you want to make it.

>>17413064
Ahh, I think I see where our difference lies. I believe, passionately and fiercely, that beauty is objective, or at the very least that there are objective standards literature can be held to. This is where our difference lies and I see at once that we will not agree on it. But thank you for engaging in discussion with me, I respect your right to an opinion, and I appreciate that you clearly do care about reading and writing in your own way. Goodnight.

>>17412624
Thansk for keeping /wg/ alive, animefriend
t. OP of the first /wg/ in 2020 or was it 2019

>>17413065
Post your fiction. Something that hasn't been published, you do not plan to publish, and can't be connected to you. You will have a qualifying piece or be proven a liar.

>>17413065
>caring at all about what people think of your work
Why not just get an actual job? Art is for artists, it's a product of emotion and an innate creative drive. It's not something you do for awards or money, at least not primarily.

>>17413089
I think it was around June-ish 2020.

>>17413065
if you're writing your book and not laughing like a child while doing so regardless of comedic value you've gotta look in the mirror bro.
can anyone else picture this guy all stern in front of his keyboard or notebook with a frown grimacing and grunting while writes The Next Great Work? you should take a hint and do what >>17412992 said

>>17413088
When did I imply beauty was not objective? Who lead you so astray that you will find every reason possible to damn yourself?

>>17413079
It's not a matter of external prestige, it's a matter of my own opinion of myself, because I believe in objective standards in literature.

>>17413081
I'm not sure what I'm meant to be critiquing - I wasn't the anon who critiqued the other anons excerpt above, if that's what you mean. I am definitely elitist when it comes to literature, but I don't think that makes me arrogant. I simply believe some novels are objectively better than others, and I spend my time reading the better ones. You cannot read Shakespeare, Milton, Proust and then tell me the mud etchings of base societies in the same era were in any way comparable, or that the vague ramblings of many modern """novelists""" in any way compare - so why should I deprive myself an opportunity to furnish my mind with beauty? I think art and literature are some of the greatest things to experience on earth. I care enough to have pursued graduate study in Literature, teach it at the university level and write.

>>17413087
Agreed. Never said someone shouldn't also read contemporary writers. McCarthy, Ishiguro, Rushdie, Marias etc all have plenty to give.

I'll write a pure and hope-inducing romance for teenage boys

>>17413120
>It's not a matter of external prestige, it's a matter of my own opinion of myself, because I believe in objective standards in literature.
But
>>17413065
>I would rather not write at all then write and not be thought of as among the best.

You are willing to say anything to wriggle yourself out of a corner aren't you? I thought you were just a poor loss soul. Instead you're a spineless worm.

>anon claims to be a brilliant writer
>anon writes himself into a corner
classic rookie mistake

>>17413090
Well, this is my submittable. I've had 8 short stories published in good journals, including Ploughshares, Granta and the White Review. I've had an agent from a good publishing house agree to represent my first novel. I don't really know what I can show you in terms of writing without giving myself away, but I'll try dig something up.

>>17413148
No fiction, huh? OK.

>>17413148
What's the key to submittable anon? I shotgunned most of my work but it's been over a month and I have no responses. I write poetry exclusively although it varies in type.

also what do you put when the sites ask you for a 'bio' and/or social media? I don't have a Twitter or some shit so I don't have much to base myself on

>>17413120
>>17413140
the choice of posting The Fallen Angel with that post is so amazing and ironic(?) that i have to assume it was an accident because theres no way that guy is that good a writer

>>17413131
I suppose by "thought of" I mean thought of in posterity, by objective critics, whose role it is in society to select, preserve and extol great art. I would rather be critically well-received but commercially unsuccessful than vice versa. Wouldn't you?

>>17413158
I managed to dig this excerpt up from a scrapped short story. It was scrapped for a reason - this isn't even formatted - but it's of reasonable enough quality that I think you can imagine a longer, more polished piece (without repeating the word 'campus' so soon, for an example) could feasibly be publishable. I'm not bullshitting, anon, and I don't know why you'd think I was.

>>17413168
I'm not on social media, I write I cover letter as "I am a lecturer in X at X in the United Kingdom. My writing has previously appeared in X, X, X and X. I am currently working on my first novel, forthcoming with X."

>>17412865
Spot-on critique.

>>17413222
Kino. I'd read more

>>17413222
Yeah man that's how you know you're a good writer. When you have to 'suppose' and guess at what you meant by a sentence you wrote a few minutes ago. And you're an actual desk jockey academic? Hoowee mama.
Good luck.

>>17413222
Super comfy, anon. Why not go back and try to finish the short story? I love the whole secret history dead poets boarding school vibe. Even if you just post it in these threads

>>17412865

>you cant be a good writer until youve spent 5000 USD on ancient author's biographies, essays and obscure shit

Wow. Is that how jewish people gatekeep academia?

>>17413276
Seethe you utter faggot. you and a bunch of other losers were hounding anon just like poor Harold Bloom got hounded. Now he's posted good writing to back himself up and you rag on a technicality. "hoowee mama" fuck off redneck

>>17413222
Don't listen to the haters anon, they probably think rupi Kaur is up there with Coleridge or Eliot

>>17413298
What do you mean technicality? He kept trying to position himself as some romantic sage who just doesn't care about what others think of his work and is doing it for the GOOD of Writing as an art-form. But he had already outed himself as a self-obsessed petty schoolboy who is deeply concerned with how his work is perceived. How do you even have the brass balls to talk yourself up so much but then maneuver yourself into such a ridiculous corner? Is this what all his education bought him? Not being able to write two sentences without contradicting himself and then having to vaguely guess at his own meaning?

>>17413269
>>17413281
Thanks. I began the story about a year ago, but wasn't feeling the characters, so grew frustrated and moved on. It was based around a male who develops an obsession with another male classmate. I was very keen to get something else published at the time, and didn't feel it was up to scratch, so moved onto a piece with similar themes that worked better and was accepted for publication. Maybe I'll go back to it at some point - I almost feel it would work better as a short novel, showing the one pursuing the other even as they leave the boarding school and go out into the world. Quite heavily inspired by Mann's Death in Venice.

>>17413307
All great writers wanted to be great writers. I would say egoism goes hand in hand with artistic success. And this is an anonymous literature forum late at night, hardly an academic paper you anal imbecile

>>17413222
If I'm submitting a first-time piece, how might I write my bio??

>>17413222
Literally my school if you replace the fields with empty lots and barbed wire. Can anyone recommend novels like this, taking place in private schools/boarding schools? Love the feel.

>>17413340
Portrait of the artist as a young man by James Joyce does it well. A secret history by Donna tartt.

>>17413349
>>17413329
DONT LISTEN TO HIM
THIS MAN
IS A TART
Do not listen to nonsense morons.

>>17413222
You seem like a bit of an asshole but fuck me your writing is so delicious who am I to judge. Haters completely and utterly BTFO. Post more?

>tfw wanted to start writing
>anon said i should kill myself because i havent read every book in the world yet
i just want to write because writing is fun and consume whatever other media i want. not follow a boring step by step list. i want to publish my work so people can enjoy it without a care for critics or smart people from smart schools ill never afford

>>17413090
>>17413148
>>17413222
You eloquent bastard, you did it.

>>17412871
>>17412972
>>17412992
>>17413024
>>17413064
>>17413276
>>17413385
When the FUCK did these threads get infested with losers, hippies, retards and actual anti-intellectual hicks? Just six months ago we were having uber-comfy discussions about literary criticism, Nabokov, that anon doing his doctorate on Keats. Wtf happened? Is this an influx from Reddit or 9gag or something?

>>17413385
>he wasn't born with the innate knowledge of every piece of writing ever made before his birth
ngmi

>>17413148
>>17413222
Do you think it's necessary to have a portfolio of short stories published before querying agents? What tips do you have working through submittable? What sort of stories have you got published? And what did your query look like? Sorry anon I'm a complete noob.

>>17413419
>wahh if you don't suck my dick and respect my juvenile ego you're a double ungood wrongthinker and probably live in a rural area!

>>17413434
seconding this post

>>17413024
This is one of the most stupid, misinformed, short-sighted, wrong things I have ever read on this site. Literally staggering. I don't even know why I come here any more. These threads should be banned.

>>17413435
Why would I want you to suck my dick you cretin? The post you're replying to is the first and only post I've made in this thread. Imagine thinking you know better than academics with actual PhDs in literature. I bet you think Johnson, Hazlitt and Eliot were just try hards who didn't know what they were talking about. Just fuck off, you will never write anything worthwhile

>>17413465
Why don't you go post on reddit so a bunch of dickriding midwits can give you the ego boost you think you deserve faggot?

>>17413434
>>17413447
I'm the anon you guys have replied to. I haven't posted since >>17413308 and I'll leave the thread after this since it seems to be getting a bit toxic.

Let's see. Yes, I definitely think having short stories published first helps if you want to produce a novel. Not only is it good practice, from the technical side - decent journals are very restrictive, and considered good indicators of quality - but it shows you've made something of a name for yourself, and that you're amenable enough that someone successfully worked with you to publish a short story. In terms of submittable, I have 15 or 20 journals I keep semi-regular track of, keeping abreast of the new stories published, any new names, tracking their progress as contemporary writers and seeing what each journal likes. As I mentioned, I keep my letters brief: "Dear Editors, attached for your consideration is X, a short story. This is a simultaneous submission, but I will alert you immediately if the piece is accepted elsewhere." then, for the second bit, you need to talk about your accomplishments. If you don't have any, you could just say" I am a new writer, based in X, " or even not put anything at all.

The query process is another matter, and too long to talk about now, but it's all about convincing the agent of your artistic vision. Obviously this is only my first novel, but it's literary fiction, around 90k words, about a topic I truly believe is original - or, at the very least, an original take on an old topic, since, as I mentioned, all literature is indebted to what has gone before. I picked an agent carefully, and found one I believed would love the idea given what she'd taken on before. Long story short, she did love it, and now it's in her best interest as well to secure the best advance, marketing, distribution etc for me as possible, so it's a win win.

>>17413222
I've followed the debate you had with the others and disagree with some bits of what you've said, but you're clearly a very strong writer.

>>17413222
Two paragraphs of technically clean description with good flow. No story, no character, no tension. No evidence that you know anything about story. Nice trips though.

>>17413564
How is he supposed to include all of that in a brief excerpt? He wasn't even obliged to provide any writing at all. And he was completely right. Sci fi, fantasy, romance are all objectively inferior to literary fiction. There's a reason why the most well-funded and well-respected journals refuse submissions of genre fiction outright. It's strictly commercial.

>>17413588
For such a great writer you're terrible at pretending not to be yourself.

>>17413588
>How is he supposed to include all of that in a brief excerpt?
Very easily, if he cared to. I believe he's been published in some kind of literary journal, where academics circle jerk about descriptive prose. John Grisham can do that, but they can't do what he does.

Dating in your twenties is an act of finding someone willing to share in your chosen ignorance. Six months into what had been the best relationship of my life, I realized that things wouldn’t work out because my partner, Alina, felt it was wrong to bring a child into the world on the brink of the Anthropocene. The prospect of growing old without children felt incredibly grim, an outcome I hadn’t earnestly considered up to that point. And as a 24-year-old, my fundamental approach to relationships involved finding someone whose company I enjoyed — everything else was supposed to fall into place from there. This wasn't the only factor that drove us apart, but it was the one I cited when we amicably broke up over mozzarella sticks in a crowded Lower East Side bar, two weeks before the pandemic transformed New York into a ghost town.

For me, deciding to want children went hand-in-hand with coming to terms with my sexuality. Early puberty was an exercise in slinking around the house to furiously masturbate in various “discrete” locations. Oh, someone needs to get a jar of peanut butter from the basement? I got it, it’ll just be a few minutes. The fear and shame that pervaded early sexuality carried over into my aspirations for adulthood, which consisted of living out my days as a bachelor in a Malibu mansion. Admitting that I wanted children would mean giving up on the rouse of my complete disinterest in anything to do with sex, which, of course, couldn’t be further from the truth. To my surprise, when I shared my plans for a solitary future with my parents, they responded with concern rather than relief: “Won’t you be lonely? What are you going to do with all those rooms?” This was one of the early kernels of maturation, of coming to see sexuality as a natural and beautiful force.

...It’s one thing to rationally accept the prospect of an environmental catastrophe and another to internalize and act on that conviction. Some part of me still believes everything will be ok. It isn’t that I think a Green New Deal will fix our problems or that capitalism will crumble under the weight of its contradictions, making way for something better. It's a faith that I know to be irrational, but one that is unshakeable nonetheless. For those of us still living with any semblance of normalcy, our actions belie the fact that we don’t fully believe in our dire prognostications. Why else would we dutifully tuck savings away into a 401(k)? Accept the drudgery of corporate jobs for the sake of building a “career”? Strive to transform decrepit political systems? As with any other ideology, only a small subset of believers truly believe. Alina was one of those people. I wasn’t.

>>17413588

>Sci fi, fantasy, romance are all objectively inferior to literary fiction

hahahaha lmao
you cant even point to the difference m8
just keep pumping that dragon dildo

I'm legitimately retarded at reading and writing novels. My wife is making one so I want to troll her and make a full 12 chapter book to rape her

What's the best way to practice writing? I have some good ideas but I daren't write them yet because I haven't written a thing in ages. I'd assume it's short stories? How should I go about getting feedback on them though? Stick them on Amazon and hope for sales? Submit to leddit?

>>17412865
Thank you, this is more feedback than I hoped for!

>It's overwritten.... so it comes across (rightly or wrongly) as pretentious affectation.
I agree. Part of the issue (in my opinion) with this piece is that I didn't have any direction for the first half. Up until 'prestigious art school', I was desperately trying to set up something with enough meat to post in a general. How should I work on the issues with my register?

>...the impression would be one of artificiality. The flow isn't quite right, either. First sentence is clumsy - "quite the artist and no one knew how" doesn't read well at all and is off-putting.
That's on me. The references were forced because I tried to crunch the passage incredibly quickly; I don't like them myself but I kept them in because they represent the worst of me, and I felt that would be useful for the critic. The 'no one knew why' was a last minute effort to connect the first and last lines.

>There are some better elements. The prose improves as it goes on, I think - "Robert fondled... began painting" is probably the best sentence. However, it isn't a very good extract on the whole. It isn't completely awful, but it's very amateurish, and reads like the work of a beginner. That's okay - everyone has to get this stuff out the way before they get better.
I'm glad you liked it. The only part I'm happy with myself is the painting process at the end, though that didn't have as much of a payoff as I'd like because of how clumsy the first half was.

>So how to get better? Well, on a larger scale, the story isn't very interesting.
It's not from anything, and doesn't have much of a story. I'll try to write something with more of a plot so this can be judged accurately - thanks anyways.

>On a smaller scale, you need to improve your technical abilities too...
I appreciate this part, the technical abilities are what I was worried about the most. What's the best way to work on this? 'Read and write more' feels too generic to be right, is there anything more I can do? Are there any glaring issues you'd recommend I should work on immediately?

One last question: if you were to judge the second half on its own (or a little after that - I'm not too proud of anything before the 'Robert fondled his paint brush...', it's all forced for the reasons mentioned above), would you rate this passage higher in terms of technical stuff?

I appreciate your feedback very much. This is actually my first time writing in several years, and you've confirmed a lot of issues that I thought I was overthinking.

>>17413222
>I dismiss genre fiction out of hand
>I cannot see why anyone with a passion for literature would disagree with me
>I would rather be critically well-received but commercially unsuccessful than vice versa. Wouldn't you?

Who do you think will have a greater impact on the generations after their own, JK Rowling or Cormac McCarthy? You want to be well-received by established, trusted critics? Clowns like this guy? https://twitter.com/jerrysaltz/status/1353732519225675779 Him and his cohorts, those are who you want to influence the minds of?

There's nothing wrong with writing genre fiction and stuff to appeal to a younger generation. There's an unparalleled sense of freedom you can convey in that sort of literature that still can't be matched by other media. Unless you just hate young people, there's really no reason to be against writing for them. You can even create things of beauty in doing so. Tolkien did it, for sure, and you could argue Le Guin did, too. It's unlikely you'll create a true masterpiece writing genre literature, one that stands on its own outside the genre (I would say Wolfe did several times, starting with Peace, but I can't think of another) but thinking that wanting to write for the sole sake of appreciation for the language is the only valid form of writing is insanely close-minded.

What's your story about, anons, and how long is it?

>>17413744
>>17413222
Hating genre fiction just seems childish to me. If you're a young person filled with novel ideas and rebellion I think genre fiction is the perfect place for that. Why waste your time with 'adult' novels to try to write 'smart' concepts you barely understand.

I'll never understand /lit/s outright hatred for genre fiction.

La Cucaracha
>Franz Kafka fled Bohemia in a terrible fury and rushed his way down to Juarez, Mexico. It was officially factual, yet only he, Camel, knew it, having secured it inside his head and wrapped enough aluminium foil around his head to never let the thought escape him, or else be extracted from the Machine. Not even J. Edgar Hoover, nor every Kafka scholar, nor literary aficionado, were in the know. But for others on the other hand, or rather, shall we say, one other, yes, one particularly talented and gifted individual . . . . yes, the thought had formed itself and concretised into the universe; now fact, now truth—coz it’d been dictated to Camel Doppler through his headset. The transmissions emanated from the node controlled by Them, uh, those in control of the Berkeley-9000 idealism machine a-and who were also coincidentally, haphazardly the guardians of the holy grail. He had received the transmission with a haze of white static, damn, and just when he was listening to his favourite little ditty too, how convenient, it being Zig Zag Wanderer by Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band, which he’d always be a-dancin’ to with a Kenosha Kid.
>Yeah, you got that right, the holy grail—that shiny ol’ artefact which was the apple of my eye, my name being King Arthur, you’ve heard of me and my round table, I assume, because of so much of t-that folklore and maybe some of that childish whimsy that nests deep within your heart of hearts for storytelling, which flutters ever so slightly, ever so gently like the wings of a Monarch butterfly migrating to, you guessed it, South to Mexico of all places during that igloo-temperate Winter, yeah, that bright relic that probably got a hundred, maybe e’en a thousand, knights frolicking across the countryside to find their lives cut short when stumbling upon one particularly, uh, vicious and deadly little white rabbit, which if you think about it has some kind of gnostic symbolism about it, if you just think about white as the spirit, or rather the demiurge, and the knight or knights as the world, as its opposite to be negated.

>>17414435
this thread made me feel so shit about my story that i deleted the entire file and now i cant get it back

>>17414555
trips of remorse

>>17414555
anon the point is to fix the things that are shit

>>17414616
unfixable. the craftsman's hands themselves are made of shit

I need some help. I do have a passion for writing and reading, but all I can read/write (not all but the focus is always) stream-of-consciousness, no plot, just a character wandering around type stories. I don't really have a strong interest in any other kind of fiction. Should I at least try to broaden my horizons to more plot driven prose? I feel like I need too to actually write and fully hone the craft more.

>>17412722
pls respond

>>17413686
bumping this but rephrasing it to make it a bit clearer:

what's the best way to write and get constant feedback? i have some, what i think are, good ideas but im not nearly a strong enough writer yet to tackle them. i need practice. where do i do it?

>>17414700
Post on places that can give you feedback, read and write constantly, look out for what you like in books and what you don't like in your own work but before that just pump out short stories. They don't have to be good at first. Just get your creative juices flowing and pick an idea to write about as pratice.

>>17414718
What places would you recommend? The places I've found so far are:
/r/destructivereaders
scribiophile
theprose.com

Do you guys want to read some poetry I wrote because I'm kind of sad?

I've been drafting scenes for a novella. It's an idea that's been floating around in my head for a few years now. Here's a bit that I'm proud of but also want feedback on. I feel like the second page in particular is not as impactful as I want it to be.

>>17413222
Anon how do I write like you? Please help

>>17414780
Pay a lot of money to a good school and be personally mentored by many passionate professors

>>17414791
I'm poor

>>17413222
Are you Chad W. by any chance?

Is there a lit magazine or weekly ?

>>17413222
What a legend

Anyone who thinks the opinions of critics are useless, that academia isn't hugely important, that the classics aren't objectively superior to genre fiction, and that genre fiction itself isn't childish and immature, can fuck off to r/books or r/writing. Absolutely disgusting and I cannot believe what I'm reading on this board of all places.

>>17414780
You can't teach someone to be a good writer, only a better writer than they were previously. This is why selective MFA programs like Iowa have such a high proportion of their attendees going on to become full time novelists compared to the general population, in comparison to 'writing workshops' with no barriers to entry other than fees. You can reach more of your own potential but you can't learn the real music of it that makes some writing so good

>>17414527
What's childish is liking stories about pew pew robots and duuude dragons and magic LMAO! Literary fiction is far more rebellious and subversive anyway so idk what point you're making other than that you're a basedboy

>>17415253
>What's childish is liking stories about pew pew robots and duuude dragons and magic LMAO!
What's childish is acting like a retard just to ridicule what other people read.

I have no stock in either side of the debate but I'm more likely to side with someone who posts their own writing and proves they write well. Funny how none of the guys arguing against the Canon, classics and academia haven't posted any of their own.

>>17413222
>>17414905
He's a chad alright

>>17415357
>funny how none of the guys arguing haven't posted their own
https://pastebin.com/kPXMGe6k

>>17415460
Ehh

Is accuracy important when writing fiction about ancient cultures and/or religions?

>>17415460
Your writing is okay but it would be so much better if you ditched the rpg fantasy stuff and applied yourself to real life. Don't doubt your ability, try

>>17414435
Sci-space opera set in approximately the 29th century. Humanity has become a interstellar civilization that has colonized a portion of the Orion arm. The story follows the narrative of 3 mcs as their courses change and intertwine. It's about 209-211k words right now.

>>17412659
This is the next WHO WAS PHONE. I am sharing this with at least 15 people. Thanks for gagging me to death.

I've just reached 100k words in my current novel.

Ending soon hopefully at 102k.

>>17415357
I’ll post flash fiction that I wrote based on /lit/ prompts. Making breakfast first.

>>17414555
Never delete any of your writing. Put it in the trunk and forget about it. Years later you may learn from the mistakes, use a good idea from it, or hold it as a measure of improvement. We all start somewhere.

>>17416058
Where are these 'lit prompts'? I could do with some prompts that aren't reddit-tier.

Has anyone here ever attempted to write a screenplay?? Because i want to.

It's an interesting debate, really. I however write and read genre fiction for the sole purpose that it is fun, and I agree that people tend to overlook and dismiss it easily. Still, I recognize the importance of literary fiction and the classics. I myself enjoy reading them, and shun upon those that dismiss them. I think that the best prose is found on the classics, and one of the greatest flaws in genre fiction is its mediocre prose. However, I dislike the pretentious act that many literary fiction readers do.
At the end of the day, these two are just different combinations of the same 26 letters. Let people enjoy what they want, no need to act pretentious or buthurt.
Except for those furries or my little pony fan fiction shit. Fuck em.

>>17416086
A couple months ago I asked /lit/ for a writing prompt and a word that had to be used in the flash fiction. I did that for six days. Tried to make a flash fiction general where we give each other prompts and write a quick story for daily practice and fun. If I remember correctly, two other people joined and wrote one each.

>>17416147
Damn, I would have really benefited from that. Guess you're not doing it any more?

>>17416090
I've written some stage plays, but no screenplays, although I did a bit of research.
It is a bit more 'mechanical' I think, cause, depending on what you're writing for (tv or movies), there are certain time constraints and story beats that need to be met at certain moments.
I don't know much about how these are done but there are some things on screenwriting in the OP.

>>17416157
I'm in a maze of outlining my next book but would participate, though probably not each day. Flash fiction is meant to be fast and fun, so it's a low time commitment. Yet it's hard to get enough people for the thread to stay alive.

Here's a prompt+word if you want to do one today. Prompt: An ice cream truck driver comes across a gorilla escaped from the zoo. Word: Inebriated.

>>17416209
If enough people regularly participated we could compile a /lit/ flash fiction anthology and put it out for free with a nice cover and formatting, which I could put together. I think it would be really fun and also readable because each story is short.

>>17415075
yeah

I, the lone dagger that stalks and creeps
Throughout the night while beauty sleeps
To sip from coffers, crimson blooming
With lifeblood spilled by death entombing
Shall return once more into my sheath
Placed there gently, a steely wreath
Make I, and upon the floor I hang
A reminder of what beauty sang
But sung no more, for rats had brung
Through open door, the end of song
Forevermore. So silence fell, and there it swore
That ever if those rats broke chastity
Silence would they speak instead of blasphemy

>>17416938
Link?

>>17416037
what's it about? congrats anon.

>>17417026
litquarterly.ca

Why are not using dictation to write?

when do you write? I have this horrible anxiety that stops me from doing things that would provide real enjoyment (writing, reading, guitar, video games) because I feel like I should be working on the things that make me money to pay the bills, but then I procrastinate those things in exchange for things that feel less important and take up less time (eg 4chan, chain smoking) but those things end up taking up just as much time as the things I actually wanted to do. I haven’t written in months. I want to participate in these threads again, but I’m just a bumbling fool at this point.

>>17417266
In the legal field, at least, you can tell what letters and things have been written by dictation. It has a very particular repetition to it. It's mostly 80 year old attorneys who don't know how to use a computer though, and come from a time where secretaries did all the writing (heh, though that hasn't really changed either)

Book 2/4 in my series is now complete at 102,724 words.

>>17417496
>only 100k
Those are rookie numbers anon, you need to pump up those numbers. If your book doesn't take so long to read that the reader's newborn children can enjoy it by the time they're done with it you've failed as a writer.

>>17417597
It's "YA fantasy" so this is way above what the demographic usually has to begin with.

>>17417625
Nah I think my point still stands, just add a few more tens of millions of words to make up for the missing years.

>>17417625
What's it about anon? I'm considering writing some YA fantasy. Any excerpts?

>>17417662
It's the Lord of the Flies to Harry Potter's The Coral Island. I wrote it partly to shit on the fantasy school genre.

>Any excerpts?
I don't want to post it here in case I manage to get it published. Don't want to be known as an author who posts on the ebil nazi site.

Why do we hate present tense again?

>>17417724
Very few of us are women.

>>17417357
when tired and or drunk

>>17416090
yeah, was pretty decent, a sort of comedy about a devil guy, le wall street guy ends up in his shop by mistake and gives him ideas to help him with his struggling business, was an epic dig at abortionists in there with the devil complaining that the souls of infants are in overuspply or whatever

>>17413222
pomo crap

>>17417713
So you basically wrote The Magicians again?

>>17413222
I understand the value of description in prose and recognize this is technically well written, but my eyes glaze over. I like what Steinbeck's Sweet Thursday has to say on the matter.
>I like some description but not too much of that. . . . Sometimes I want a book to break loose with a bunch of hooptedoodle. . . . Spin up some pretty words maybe or sing a little song with language. That’s nice.

>But I wish it was set aside so I don’t have to read it.

>>17416090
One of my current projects started off as a screenplay because I had a friend who wanted to make a movie with me. After that fallout I turned it into more a novel. The weirdest part is that the dialogue is natural and witty, but the rest of the prose is rather direct and stiff. I'm not sure if this came from the fact that it's almost like stage directions or describing what's on a screen or if it's my experience doing legal writing that has neutered by ability to wax poetically.

>>17417713
I've been thinking of doing something similar for the sake of money, but still with more whimsy than edge. I think I've decided to embrace that my interest in writing novels is primarily motivated by getting lots of people to read it rather than producing stuff at my current barometer for "high-quality." I have some ideas for my story and protagonists, but I don't have many ideas about building a compelling world.

>>17417775
Uh, I looked that up and my novel does have some similarities with it, but it's similar to LotF vs. TCI in that "the evil is inside the kids" vs. "an external evil threatens the school/island." I haven't read The Magicians so I don't know if that does something similar.

>>17417981
The Magicians was supposed to be "Harry Potter but the kids do drugs and have sex" I think. I didn't read it either though.

>>17417357
Sometimes I write when I'm near or over a chapter's deadline, which can be every 4-6 days.

>>17417724
I don't hate it.

So, how easy is it to get a story accepted by a magazine?

>>17413222
This is so good, and watching jealous anons seethe is even better

>>17417818
Each to their own. I'd happily buy and read multiple novels written like that.

What's your rating, /lit/? Curious to see.

>http://www.roadtogrammar.com/textanalysis/

>>17418288
That's the beauty of it, there's a plethora of styles to choose from when it comes to reading. I think to pigeonhole any of it to a specific "music" or whatever that anon's saying is a load of hooptedoodle all on its own.

How the fuck do you stop filtering everything you write? Ever since I've been going to Uni for English Lit, I've been unable to write fiction, I've been unable to transplant the scene in my head onto the paper, whereas I was EASILY able to before, like it was my biggest talent. How do I deprogram my brain?

>>17414780
1) Read bad short stories online, even the badpasta wiki. Then write why it was bad, go extreme into detail. Both to practice your skills to get ideas across into words, but also to help you learn better what does not work.

Then start reading longer shit stories and do the same.

2) Then start reading very mediocre books. Me and a friend read two or three FNAF books and wrote long angry rants about every single thing we hated about the story. Get creative with how you roast the books/stories, don't just say "it is bad cuz generic durhurr".

3) Read what you love, then make points what you liked and why it works, and find what you disliked or felt it was a bit amateurish. Make at least 5 points.

4) Let people who either grew up reading a shit ton of books for fun or people who also write critique your work.

5) Read books about how to become a novelist

6) ?????????????????????????????

7) Profit.

>>17418371
Upper intermediate (C1.) I'm >>17412743 and used a different excerpt than that one.

Should I stop working on my vocabulary, and look into other issues?

>>17413222
is this actually enjoyable to read? what kind of person would sit through 500 pages of this?

>>17418516
Just as an fyi, best to avoid terms like "arigato" because the analyzer freaks out and thinks it is some kind of a niche niche fancy word. Use a section that uses real english words without any foreign city names or slang, or "bot".

Assuming you did that, do try to seek out any other possible flaws you have, sure. You can return to vocabulary later again.

>>17418371
My book averages around 4.5 on the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level score because my MC is a Caulfield ripoff. I write more complexly when writing essays.

>>17418550
The excerpt I used was from a school assignment that only used English words. So that shouldn't have been an issue.

And thanks. I wish I knew what kind of flaws to look for though, I have no formal training when it comes to writing (as you can probably tell.)

>>17418536
Not to be a dick but I had the same thoughts.

>>17418567
Save up cash and maybe hire someone temporarily to look through and critique? Someone who actually knows their shit. Find authors of a greater skill level than yourself and study how they made their own work.

>>17418570
it's classic academia bait, read any of your professor's work and it looks exactly the same. to what extent is the OP just writing descriptions that are implied in any other novel? it's well-written descriptions, it flows, but what ideas are there, it's like describing a rock at every single groove in an elegant way and thinking that ascribes quality onto your writing

Can you make a villain too sympathetic?
I find it hard to turn off.

>>17418585
>>17413222
all you've done is caulk up an affluent kid being sent to a fancy boarding school, staffed with teachers whom seem distant from their work. I think one of the most telling lines is, "which had so charmed with their air of unpretentious grandeur, came to seem somehow decrepit---" this isn't good writing, it's peacocking and quite ironic considering how pretentious it actually is

look, your reader could always read a non-fiction and get what you're giving them in 100x the quality

>>17416175
>>17417745
>>17417892

Cool, thx for the words. For a while now ive been wanting to write a fargo-esque black comedy/ true crime drama set in alice springs australia.

>>17418637
also, one of the biggest indicators of an amateurish writer is someone who high-loads detail and "complexities" in what is actually quite simple, go on Amazon KDP and see how people write, it's environmental beauty bait with big words as if that's a sign of professionalism. I read your post, OP, it was fluid.. but, something was really off about it, as someone whose gone through a gambit of young writers, and you seem to be compensating for your lack of creative ability, with these meaningless masturbatory lines that describes nothing that a travel agent couldn't

>>17418637
>>17413222
also, one of the biggest indicators of an amateurish writer is someone who high-loads detail and "complexities" in what is actually quite simple, go on Amazon KDP and see how people write, it's environmental beauty bait with big words as if that's a sign of professionalism. I read your post again, OP. It's fluid but, something was really off about it, as someone whose gone through a gambit of young writers, you seem to be compensating for your lack of creative ability, with these meaningless masturbatory lines that describes nothing that a travel agent couldn't. It's like you're trying to replace compelling fiction with compelling details that are out of a pamphlet.

>>17418536
I would, if the dialogue and characterisation were of equal quality. Come on anon, don't turn into the fox who can't reach the grapes

>>17418696
am I wrong?

>>17418585
>>17418637
>>17418695

>>17418585
>>17418637
>>17418695
Its a two paragraph long contextless excerpt from a short story OP abandoned you utter autists, and I think it's great, so who's right and who's wrong?

>>17418710
Yeah, I think you are, because you don't know any details regarding the narrator, the context of the piece in the story, the writing that's come immediately prior or immediately after. But regardless, I LIKE the flow, I LIKE the rise and fall of the sentences, and I love the little details like the horizon muddling with the sky. Prose can be beautiful for its own sake, and I really think that excerpt has beautiful prose. There isn't much story going on, but again, we don't know context. Different people want different things from writing, and I take a lot of pleasure from prose style and technical skill on its own. I'd happily read a story written like that about a man going to the shops. Hell, that's basically what Mrs dalloway is.

>>17418637
Go jerk off to Hemingway and tell yourself Joyce wasn't infinitely better writing about absolutely nothing

>>17418637
>>17418720
I find the excerpt I provided of Joyce's writing here
>>17418777
Because it literally makes my hair stand on end, the passage as a whole, and the end bit there. It makes my heart beat faster and it brings a smile of pleasure to my face. What's he describing? A kiss. That's it. But describing it in such a way...! I would read 2 or 3 pages of beauty describing something as simple as a kiss,or a thought, or a dream.

How do I expand my vocabulary? Do I just read the dictionary or what?

>>17418777
We really comparing anon's unpublished scenery excerpt to fucking Joyce lmao

>>17418710
>>17418799
Another example: Javier Marias. Just phenomenal from an aesthetic perspective. But literary aesthetics is its own entire field, and whether aesthetics are more important than story, or vice versa, is a topic of hot debate. Someone like Dostoevsky cares more about plot and characterisation than prose, turgenev was the stylist who cared about word choice and repetition, and Tolstoy mastered both to a certain extent for example. The modernists wrote about nothing in very beautiful prose, and before them Flaubert was supremely concerned with prose beauty. At the end of the day, I don't come down and say that either you or OP are correct, because it's to each their own, much like this anon says:
>>17416139


Ultimately. It looks like 75% of people loved that extract and 25% hated it. Every writer will have lovers and haters, because what people look for in books are different. Personally I loved the extract and would read a lot more in that sort of style, and choose books with prose I find beautiful over page turners with mediocre writing. But that's just me. Have a good day anon

>>17413222
basado. Leave this board before they drag you down. It's crab bucket mentality here, everyone's overweight and mediocre and nobody has a clue what they're talking about. Or submit to lit quarterly, if you can stoop to our levels.

>>17418585
>>17418536
>>17418570
t. no taste. Enjoy never being published.

/ffa/ - Flash Fiction Anthology thread is up >>17418826

Flash fiction posted will be made into an anthology and published for free digitally with print on demand option. Vellum for formatting, will figure out the cover. Might take a few months to get enough. If you're interested in quick writing practice from a prompt and want to join, give it a look.

>>17418862
you really think a book filled with pamphlet descriptions and environmental bait is going to get published and a book that is orientated around compelling stories and hooking interest isn't? books in the vein that the OP posted don't get published, they get tossed around in academia and results in /lit/ posting that is completely disconnected from published works

Has it been long enough that I can rip off Chronicles of Amber and have nobody notice?

>>17418883
>>17418862
Both of you stop shitting up the thread, OPs excerpt has like 40 posts, some people love it some hate it and the one side is never going to convince the other through analysis that they did or didn't like it, so can we please talk about something else now and wish the OP every success with the novel he got accepted? Fuck me these threads used to be supportive. I'm personally a big genre fan but I'm please that OP got agent representation, that's the sort of shit we all dream of. You're bickering like actual women.

>>17418862
>>17418883
just one more thing... and anyone whose been in writing circles or a CW class/workshop knows this.. if there's one fucking thing that DOESN'T separate writers, it's being able to describe something to hell and back, descriptions in the vein of (a-lot of environmental bait) are the most easily mined and common "talent" or "quality" that writers have.

>>17418905
i am a woman

>>17418920
Explains a lot.

>>17418920
Wrong

>>17413222
At the end of the day, this man has been published and has a novel coming out. The people hating have not. That means that, for better or worse, the people whose opinion counts side with OP. Make of that what you will. I STRONGLY suspect he's posted two or three times over the last month or so, and each post has been very strong. The writing style in this post from the last thread, for example, is very similar:
>>17409552

the argument was never one of
>the canon and the classics are worthless and nobody should read them
im not sure how so many people misinterpreted that

Tell me what you think of my prose

Thunder flicked his tongue dancing in and out as he smelled the air around the ewe’s crotch. The ewe which could have been Miss May or Abigail by the splotches on her snout crouched and pissed in the long browning grass. Thunder’s tongue wagged, excited now as he took in her scent. Thunder himself reeked liked the most unclean refuse, a filthy specimen of a ram whom the ladies always loved. This ewe sure did. She let Thunder stroke her upon the hindquarters with a foreleg, prodding, anticipating. He buried his nose in her behind, exploring, twisting the neck, and steadying his head upon her rump. The ewe stood permitting Thunder to mount and enter her, grunting, his pendulous sack bouncing off her low-hanging hind quarters. She wasn’t a bad fit for breeding either, bearing a long and low rump with a wide space between the hind legs, and a sturdy body holding her weight well as the season changed. Thunder was efficient, cumming in a matter of seconds into the ewe and dismounting with a final grunt.

>>17419013
I've been published and currently have a three-book contract. I don't hate him. He's a good writer but I'm not at all convinced that he knows how to write good fiction and tell a story.

>>17419132
erotica posting is a defense mechanism, you're afraid that /wg/ won't respond well to your work, so you hide under a sex scene that is so silly, that you'll feel disconnected enough from the (yous) not to be personally affected

>>17419180
But if it were actually in a picaresque tale of a lazy shepherd's misadventures what would you think specifically of that paragraph.

>>17419222
shut the fuck up please

>>17419238
I take it you didn't like it

kek the crab mentality in this board is insane
is everyone here a third worlder or what?

>>17419241
okay give me 20 minutes ill do a line by line critique

>>17419282
thanks

>>17419298
okay... I gave up, but this is what I have for you...

>Thunder flicked his tongue dancing in and out as he smelled the air around the ewe’s crotch
"Thunder flicked his tongue up and down her puffy lips, elated from the smell eminating from ewe's crotch." It's important be precise, what is his tongue flicking against (remove dancing.. don't need to compete with flicking) I rewrote it.
>the ewe which could have been Miss May or Abigail by the splotches on her snout crouched and pissed in the long browning grass.
This one is hard to rewrite.. not because it's good, but because it's written kind of autistically. "the identity of the eye was split between Miss May or Abigail, both shared the same splotches around the snout, Thunder had peaked at both as they pissed openly in the long, subsequently browning grass"
>Thunder’s tongue wagged, excited now as he took in her scent. Thunder himself reeked liked the most unclean refuse, a filthy specimen of a ram whom the ladies always loved.
"Thunder's tongue was drooping with saliva, wagging excitedly. Her scent had imbued in his nose like a pervasive mold. Thunder himself reeked like the most unclean refuse, a filthy man of a ram whom had always found himself in the good graces of the prissiest of ladies.

>>17419438
I didn't expect you to actually treat any of it, my sincere thanks. I will take this into consideration. Elated is a good word to describe how a sheep's tongue reacts to a good smell.

>>17418799
I hated portrait and that excerpt makes me cringe. Seethe more.

>>17419500
is thunder a sheep? what?

guys i dont know what to write about! give me a prompt and ill spit some mad shit i promise

>>17419510
did you read and critique it thinking it was about a man fucking a sheep

>>17419589
i thought thunder was a name for a man and you were just skirting around being explicit

>>17412722
lmao, post more

>>17419517
A man becomes "stinky" over the course of a week, and his girlfriend becomes "milky."

>>17419517
flash fiction prompt here >>17418826

I listened to a hypnosis tape to take a nap and now I have a new idea for a story, basically fully fledged
Were the crazy /x/ schizos right all along

>>17413222
Well done. Just need to sprinkle in a couple points of depth so that the place you're describing has a bearing on how we see the future action.

>>17418371
CEF Level C1 (Upper Intermediate)
IELTS Level 6.5-8

>>17418371
I tested some of the first draft of the first chapter of the novel I'm working on, and generally found that the more text I included the higher my score went.

That said, I haven't used this 'test' nearly enough to know how accurate this is at testing quality. It seems to rate primarily based on how common the words you used are, which doesn't seem that useful to me.

>>17418371
Grabbed a random paragraph from the scifi novel I'm working on. Bretty gud I think, that's about the level of complexity I'm aiming for.

>>17420155
Decided to post my entire first chapter rather than smaller snippets and my score lowered to B2. However, I also test-posted the entire first chapter of The Shadow of the Torturer and Blood Meridian, which are two books I re-read recently, and they both got B2 as well.

It seems for novels B2 is a pretty decent place to be.

>>17420209
Honestly you should aim for B2 overall if possible just because it makes it so that younger people and people who speak your language as a second language can read your work and understand it.

>>17412865
I agree except in that I think "Robert fondled" is the worst sentence.

>>17420209
>>17420247
I'm fucking regretting ever clicking this shit desu. I started obsessively posting my shit there to see what my score is. So far high B2/low C1 seems to be my average, and I'm leaving it there now. I can be happy with that.

Newfag here, is /lit/'s writing general always like this?
Also what do you guys think of just writing without spending five years studying books about writing first?
Any actual direct tips for a new writer?

Can someone help me? I'm trying to work on the next great american novel

https://pastebin.com/rLEZLJpJ

>>17420277
Writing isn't a competition of who can make the most complex sentences and use the longest words. This score is best thought of as an "ease of reading" score.
http://www.roadtogrammar.com/tools/cefr/
The higher you go, the less people will be able to consistently understand you. Too high is not good.

>>17420300
>Any actual direct tips for a new writer?
Start doing.

>>17420362
Already on that one.
Making sure to write daily even if it's not much has helped tremendously.

>>17412757
is this method outlined in any book? I downloaded ABC of reading but didn't even eye it

>>17420368
try your hardest to join a writing group that constantly exchanges work so you know what work looks like and if you have any bad habits

Hi hivemind, I need some help. I'm writing a fantasy novel at the moment, where one of my characters is transgender. I'm a cis female, and while I've seen many examples of gender/sexuality/race being put into a story very hamhandedly, to be the "point" of the character, I haven't come across any advice on how to do it well/respectfully. Any pointers would be great? And please no hate cause I'm asking what might be perceived as a nieve question. Thanks

>>17420300
You really shouldn't come to 4chan for noob advice, or really advice at all if you can avoid it. However, tips:
>just fucking write
>read a lot of the same kind of thing you want to write
>you will write absolute shit but so does everybody, that's what drafts are for
>you do not need a degree to write
>you do not need some retarded apps or auto-stylers or whatever they call them these days to write
Also I like to set wordcounts per day to meet. Something I can do in an hour or so. I have a day job so this makes the time commitment easy. I also try not to go over that daily limit to avoid burnout.

>>17420389
he needs to absolutely join a writing club so he doesn't write himself into a ditch of bad habits with 0 cadence or rhythm

>>17420387
>fantasy novel
>tranny
This is either bait or you're retarded. Also you will never please the trans crowd permanently, they will turn on you eventually. As for how to do it "respectfully", don't fetishize the character and don't tokenize them, same as any other minority.

>>17420396
I have no idea why anyone would join a writing club if they're even remotely capable of self-analysis. It's a great way to discourage yourself from writing by having a bunch of people who aren't writers except to be in the "club" nitpick the fuck out of your work for things that readers generally don't care about. A better idea is to do prompt-based writing semi-anonymously online.

>>17420396
I remember when I listened to this exact advice and joined a writing workshop.
Then I saw absolute shit, people showing the worst kind of shit I've ever read and complimenting it. Someone writes something objectively garbage, people just tell how good it is. Ironically there was almost no criticism there.

I left. I'm not retarded, I'm able to analyse my own works.

>>17420417
Man that's the exact opposite of what happened to me, I had a bunch of retarded boomers who could barely string a sentence together crying about me using words that were too long or whining that I used a semicolon. Total shitshow.

>>17420417
>>17420432
How does this happen?

>>17420520
Writing clubs, like most hobby clubs for hobbies that don't require more than one person to perform, are mostly just an excuse for socialization that normalfags use to try to appear more interesting. Depending on the overall generational and demographic makeup of the club you can expect different things.
>club of largely millenial white people: Hugbox 100%
>club of boomers: Narcissistic nitpick bullshit generator 100%
>club of <insert "oppressed" minority>: Vent-heavy pseudo therapy group
>club of bible belters: Church group with extra activities
etc. Sure, good ones probably exist, but I wouldn't expect them to be common especially if there's no gatekeeping.

>>17420417
>>17420415
The problem is seen all the time in /lit/ and it's aspiring authors becoming cut off from the reality of the fiction world. You want to be centered in what gets published, what people like, and maximize your ability in that dimension.

>>17420563
>writing as a job
>being a slave to your audience
You write for very different reasons than I do.

>>17420571
the best works were written for a paycheck
I treat my personal writing like an assembly line. i just try to write something people will pay for and appreciate. i dont really care if the inner circles think its trash

>>17420601
>the best works were written for a paycheck
Holy fuck I'd love to see you back up this opinion.

>>17420601
soulless. That's all I can say.

I'm unironically thinking about writing a trash vampire novel for teenage girls
what is your opinion on that?

>>17418585
I was in a similar boat. But I had actual plot/concept (ok within its genre at least). Today in a call with two people, one of which graduated some fancy creative writing thing, said I kept rambling on and on like anon. They went on how many people who suck at making any good plots/aren't creative tend to bombard with descriptions like that anon. I then went through my story and began shaving off a lot of words and now I get it.

The anon has nice words and all, but geez man, it was, to put it bluntly, just boring reading through it all and felt like a genuine struggle to finish just 1 page. I saved it in my "things I hate and I review why" though, so the anon did one thing right - he showed me how NOT to write and describe why I hated it in detail. A good learning opportunity.

I realize I sound like a dick and it feels bad, but oh well this is 4chan. The best critique you can get is from haters, I am sorry but even psychologists write this in all their books.

>>17420623
People have to start from somewhere, anon.

>>17420623
What's YOUR opinion on it? Write what you want to write, fuck everyone else.

>>17420623
Do it but make it actually have a good plot and characters so those dumb sluts learn what quality looks like.

>>17420609
>Milton's magnum opus, the blank-verse epic poem Paradise Lost, was composed by the blind and impoverished Milton... On 27 April 1667,[53] Milton sold the publication rights for Paradise Lost to publisher Samuel Simmons for £5 (equivalent to approximately £770 in 2015 purchasing power),[54] with a further £5 to be paid if and when each print run sold out of between 1,300 and 1,500 copies.

>>17418720
>bwahhh muh excuses debunks arguments and criticism

If reading a whole page hurts, then that still says a lot. With or without context

>>17420613
>>17420609
i thinka wanna be like roger cormen or something. i like stuff like robocop and gremlins and ghostbusters. stuff that does work. i read nonfiction orwell, carver, tolkien, lewis, wolfe, lafferty.
>>17420628
ive always felt that books should be as brisk as possible and details should only exist if they're important. thats a bit ironic considering that i love tolkien. i like his descriptions a lot but i dont really want to recreate that style if that makes any sense.

>>17418817
Read books from 1890 to 1950s and maybe 1960s. How is this not common sense? Write down any words you do not comprehend.

>>17420654
Now I provide as a counterexample: every single post-mortem great work and every single great work whose authors died penniless after failing to make any money.
>>17420665
There's no shame in wanting to make money but to say that the best books are written for a paycheck is retarded. There's no correlation between quality of a work and the money paid for it beyond a basic floor that excludes complete shit.

>>17413222
I don't understand. Why does it have so many replies? It's... normal? I also write like that? It's nothing amazing, wtf

>>17418862
The truth hurts, doesn't it? Haters will be the most honest people. Friends and spouses will fear to hurt your feelings or taint their relationship with you. If I hadn't gotten roasted on 4chan for my drawings or writing years ago, I would still produce cancer and never be proud of anything.

>>17420673
an author writing books to make money and an author dying penniless are not opposites
i think you're a total fool or very sheltered if you're trying to argue that none of those authors wrote for money

>>17420678
Just the same guy shilling himself.

>>17420673
He didn't say the greatest works were written for a huge advance. He said that they were written by people basically doing it as a job that paid them a middle-class-ish salary for the time that they needed to eat and rent, which is true for a huge number of works.

>>17420318
Please respond and give critique

>>17420685
Point taken, but there are plenty of great works, some considered the "best" of whatever they're in, not written for money.
>>17420694
>a large number
His statement said
>the best works were written for a paycheck
As in all of them.

>>17418883
>>17418910
Not the anon you roasted but this made me wake up. You two have saved my future. I was close to falling for that style of writing myself not long ago.

>>17420318
>>17420703
>18 "fuck"
I'm not reading that. Are you a primitive nigger?

>>17419013
>At the end of the day, this man has been published and has a novel coming out
He can still stagnate and get worse. I know schizo wackos who have published books and sold a lot, retards like teen me bought their books and in retrospect, I realized how terrible their ramblings were. Has cool art in it though.

Over complimenting someone can do more harm than good.

>>17420728
That's how these people would talk what are you saying? and a lot of that is what's in the RAW paste data.
Some people have very foul mouths am I supposed to pretend that doesn't happen?

>>17420719
His inexact wording doesn't make the point less valid you backpedaling retard. Writing with marketability in mind to some extent has almost always just been a fact of the art.

>>17420741
What book?

>>17419249
>someone does not agree with me, they are crab hivemind
Uh...so only when a hivemind agree with you, they are suddenly ok and not a hivemind? Ok, cool. Virtue signal less.

>>17420753
>Writing with marketability in mind to some extent has almost always just been a fact of the art
Yeah I agree, I just don't agree that the best works were written for a paycheck.

Didn't Alexandre Dumas essentially write for money
And Count of Monte Cristo is one of the best stories ever

Today you can't write a beautiful book for money, you need some YA trash or fantasy

>>17420300
Read bad creepypastas, ask yourself what made them bad and why. Read really bad books like FNAF series and review it to yourself again. Watch movies and verbalize why you hate it.

Then move on to what you like and write why it works and is good.

>>17420784
But that's what that means. If they were written without the paycheck in mind, they would be written without marketability in mind. I accept your defeat.

>>17420753
The more I write the more I respect those who can sell.

>>17420805
There's writing for something an then there's writing while considering the possibility of something. Also the statement was, once again, a universally inclusive statement about the "best" works of literature. I don't agree that doing something explicitly for something is the same as doing it while considering the possibility, and I don't agree that the statement made applies to all of the "best" works.

>>17420824
I already accepted your defeat.

>>17420834
Good for you.

i just realised those 10k words i wrote this month are shit and i have to rewrite them
i don't feel well bros

>>17420756
something by Ivan Stang, he himself said in a podcast once "any moron can write a book and publish it. Does not mean you are a good writer. A bozo like myself has published several yet people keep buying it", he even informed his followers when his books would drop in price or get discounts on amazon, he knew it was nonsense. I think it was called Revelations, the book.

If fame meant good, why did garbage like 50 shades of grey or twilight get big?

>>17420871
>Ivan Stang
>Known for Co-Founder of Church of the SubGenius
Okay yeah that's all I needed to know lmao.

>almost 1000 words written in the last couple hours
Feels good to be productive bros. Maybe I'll make it after all.

>>17420893
Keep going, anon. I finished my first story from scratch today within a week. Six pages long but eh, I prefer writing shorts.

>>17420893
That's great anon, I'm happy for ya.

>finally stop trying to publish through RR
>find myself enjoying writing again because I don't have to force myself to meet word counts or deadlines or other shit I really don't care about
>even found my productivity has increased because I'm writing for me now, and there's no pressure

>>17420948
Here's a trick for you: Write up a whole story or at least a really significant part of one, then post it to royal road one chapter at a time while pretending you're writing it on the fly and milk people for donations. While you're doing that, write another story to do the same thing with. People on the site will think you're a genius for having such a good plot (and editing if you did it) and you have zero pressure to come up with more chapters because they're already done.

Fuck I prepared myself to write all night, it's 2 AM, but I drank five energy drinks and coffee and my heart feels weird
I don't want to die

>>17420893
We're all going to make it

>>17420869
It's OK. It's part of the process.

>>17421093
>We're all going to make it
Damn right we are. As far as I'm concerned, if WallStreetBets can fuck the entire Hedge Fund and Investment Banking industry, we can publish some fucking books.

Started a new thread. Try not to derail it like this thread with pretentious bullshit and just post excerpts and/or works.

>>17421161

>still 30 posts down
>he starts a new thread
Can't you make it after it dies? Normally we could get to around 370 before that retard appeared

>>17421221
this has been going on for like. half a dozen threads now at least. Keep up, buddy.

>>17421221
Just keep reporting it and maybe the mods will get off their asses and get rid of him.

>>17412722
>"I'm wondering if you're in the gay parts too"

My fucking sides

>>17421190
>thread gone
Jannies finally doing their job I see, good.

/wg/bros we got too cocky...

>>17421385
I don’t get it.

What's your favorite anime about writing?

>>17421456
I actually really liked Shirobako when it came to some of the writer characters in that. You also reminded me that Fune wo Amu existed. And it was something if a little jarring with the casual timeskips it did.

>>17421456
Whisper of the Heart

>>17421456
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Diamond is Unbreakable

>>17421456
Eromanga Sensei, obviously.

>>17421456
Koi wa Ameagari no You ni.
Dude spent zero time writing and all the time working, thinking about how he should get back to writing, and trying to not fuck a high schooler.

>>17421497
>spoiler
Literally me.

>>17421510
He would've been completely justified in doing so. Would you be?

>>17421519
If she’s weak, then yes. It’s survival of the strongest, anon.

>>17421456
Kiki’s Delivery Service

I'm feeling like I'm done with writing /wg/. Not just writing my novel but writing as it fits into any of my other hobbies. I just don't care enough to put my words on paper/computers anymore.

Not that I've really been interested in my story for like a year and a half now

>>17421658
That's a shame to hear.
What were you writing?

>>17421613
Onions

>>17421658
fuck writing your novel. a novel is a job. try writing wild and free and see if that spark does not return.

>>17421664
it was a trashy comedic fantasy novel.

to be honest, maybe saying I "haven't been interested" was a misstatement. I have been interested, just not as intensely interested as I was before I started writing it. Actually trying to solve problems in the plot gives me more headaches than it used to and less dopamine, but I'm still deeply attached to my characters and want to complete their story even if my brain is too foggy to know where I'm going with it all.

I've had brief times where the spark reignited for a few days or hours, but those have been less and less frequent. I imagine corona is playing a major role in this, and before corona it was my job or seasonal affective disorder or whatever.

I wonder if the damage depression is doing to my brain is permanent or if not how many years it will take before I'm back to feeling alive again

>>17421724
>corona was a negative for him
shoo shoo normalfag
But seriously just write something else. Real art comes from suffering. I honestly cannot write if I'm too relaxed.

Usually when I write I can get a flow going and generally enjoy the act of writing. With this latest story I want to do, everything I write on it feels like constipated shit. Its really not enjoyable to write.

What am I doing wrong?

You guys ever feel like you lost what you’re writing about? That you keep on piling other things upon other things in the hopes something comes out of it?

>>17421787
Maybe you're over filtering. Too worried about making it pretty on the first go. Not that? Maybe spend some time away.

>>17421803
Yup, all the time. Usually because I'm forcing myself to write, rather than writing an idea that genuinely interests me.

>>17421803
No, because I know where I'm going. I don't have a map but I have a compass.

>>17421819
Potentially, though maybe I'm just under prepared.

>>17421844
Man, I have outlines and notes to help me, but I still add things to my story and now I'm back to rewriting it.

>>17421819
>Yup, all the time. Usually because I'm forcing myself to write, rather than writing an idea that genuinely interests me.
I have several ideas that I like and want to include rather than exclude them. And it just resulted in me in losing sight of what I wanted to write.

>>17421803
i think you need to hone your intuitive sense on what makes a good addition to the story. if you make ten good choices in a row and one bad you're eventually going to get stuck. you can maybe permit two or three minor mistakes in an entire book, but if you don't know what constitutes an error in direction with a high degree of certainty and confidence then you're fucked.

>>17421929
My response. >>17421924

Will my readers be turned off if I suddenly introduce drug use as a theme? The story already has lots of gore and black comedy, and also alcohol use. But no hard drugs so far.

>>17422071
Why don't you ease into it?

>>17422078
Could you give me an idea of how to do that? What I have now is a character I'm introducing and she uses drugs in her introduction scene.

>>17422094
Care to give context on the girl and her introduction scene?

>>17422099
She is a teenager and is part of a group of high schoolers who are committing a series of ritual murders. They pick up one of their friends and she does a line of coke in the backseat. She is the most unhinged and hedonistic of the group and just lives for momentary pleasure.

>>17422071
>The story already has lots of gore and black comedy, and also alcohol use. But no hard drugs so far.
>>17422138
>She is a teenager and is part of a group of high schoolers who are committing a series of ritual murders. They pick up one of their friends and she does a line of coke in the backseat. She is the most unhinged and hedonistic of the group and just lives for momentary pleasure.
Anon, I think you might be genuinely overthinking it. If it still bothers you can write multiple introduction scene until one seems okay to you.

>>17422094
Sounds fine, maybe don't write, "she stabbed the needle into her vein--fuck yes it hit her, the sweet drug flowed into her heart". Or maybe that's perfectly fine for your story, idfk

>>17421456
Whisper of the Heart, Bakuman

>>17422165
>>17422174
Alright, yeah I probably am overthinking. I tend to get worried about going too edgy but it is probably a nonissue compared to some of the stuff I have already included.

>>17422253
As long as you don't include a 13-year old gangbang, you're golden.

>>17413222
I remember you! I liked this same piece back in a crit thread. Goodonya.

>>17422253
Anon, I got to ask, because this has been on my mind for a while, but how do we define edgy in a story if it serves a purpose?

>>17422472
Are dark themes now considered edgy in today’s literature world?

Alright lads we made it to the bottom of the board for once, someone who isn't phoneposting make a new thread in a bit

>>17422916
Here you go.

>>17422927