/lit/ - Literature

What’s your favorite Ezra pound poem anons?

Caring about things in a serious way that breaks out of and moves beyond the stagnant antinomies of one's age is what produces great art, and that's what fascists at least try to do. Communist faggots on twitter claim to be doing it, but they have been rerouted by the establishment into a cul-de-sac of neutered ideology that doesn't change things in any way. Even the most degraded human being with the most sleepy soul can instinctively detect the fakeness, the astroturf aftertaste of a communist pseudo-rebel's "outsider" or "transgressive" art. It tastes like plastic. Especially when the communist, standing in MoMA with his rich donors and backer and his snazzily dressed investment consultant parents and sister who goes to Barnard, has to be the one to TELL you he's an "outsider." Fascists just are outsiders.

>>17379923
Say what you will, but Fascism has a strong affinity and feeling for the Absolute, if to a fault. Considering its origins in the Endeavor of Fiume, Fascism could somewhat accurately be described as an attenot to make an artwork with human society as its canvas. Whether that is actually desirable is another question.

>>17379983
*attempt

>>17379923
Looks like an anime cosplayer in this picture

>>17379935
Hot take: the seafarer is beautiful, but ezra pound's attempt at anglo saxon alliterative verse is just not correct enough for somebody who cares about form and tradition as much as he does. Maybe his sources were dicked up?
I'd say the cantos, but its SO uneven. I fuck wit hugh selwyn mauberley too doe. He's got a ton of great stuff.

>>17379935
I would very much like to know good Pound poems to begin with.
Help us out, OP.

>>17379964
>Conservatism is the new punk rock!

>>17380174
Fascism, originally defined, is decidedly anti-conservative, and genuinely shares some common ideological ground with "punk" in its monomaniacal drive towards smashing the "old order."

>>17380174
That's not entirely false, at the very least "Conservatism" (in the sense of anti-PC, tighter immigration policy, cultural nationalism in favour of multiculturalism etc.) is closer to being a counter-culture than the alternative "Liberal" position, since the later is dominant in journalism, the university and entertainment.

>>17380204
>Fascism, originally defined is decidedly anti-conservative
Which has nothing to do with what the English word fascism currently refers to, which is a decidedly reactionary movement

>>17379964
FPBP

>>17379999
Checked.

>>17380174
Punk is gay
>>17380204
Retard
>>17380215
Dumbass
>>17380236
Idiot
>>17380251
R*ddit

>>17380236
>implying
yhtgb

>>17380236
People have no understanding of fascism as an ideology at all. It's abused as a word to silence political opposition, just like 'nazi', true, but it does not change what fascism actually *is*.

>>17380236
Just because the word used to refer to it is butchered and misused in mass discourse doesn't change the fact that fascism is a distinct movement with defining characteristics which can be discussed independent of the wider usage of the word. You might as well talk about what "communism" refers to according to people who call Bernie Sanders a communist in response to a discussion about the actual ideology.

>>17380267
>People have no understanding of fascism as an ideology at all. It's abused as a word to silence political opposition
This is largely true, especially of left-of-centre points of view, but it is also true that it is misleading to use the word fascism to refer to earlier cultural currents that inspired Hitler/Mussolini rather than their political movements themselves.

>>17380204
Yes, it is so punk rock to follow orders from police, beat the shit out of/murder people because politicians tell you to, etc.

>>17380275
>>17380267
Fascism is a vague concept because it bases itself on irrationalism and has an extremely weak economic and political constitution. In practice it’s mostly supporting the arbitrary whims of the tyrant and his state cronies; it has no real principles, except illusory ones like “serving the Race” and shit like that

>>17380275
Words change meaning. Currently the word fascism, when used without qualification, refers to the Hitler/Mussolini movement. This is the meaning the word has in the English language. You can use it to talk about Marinetti's ideas if you want, but you have to qualify the term so we actually know what you are talking about.
On the other hand people who use the word communist to talk about Bernie are simply using the word wrongly, unless they speculate about his private beliefs.

>>17380117
I liked his Malrin poem

“MALRIN

Malrin, because of his jesting stood without, till all the guests were entered in unto the Lord’s house. Then there came an angel unto him saying, “Malrin, why hast thou tarried?”
To whom, Malrin, “There is no feeding till the last sheep be gone into the fold. Wherefor I stayed chaffing the laggards and mayhap when it was easy helping the weak.”
Saith the angel, “The Lord will be wroth with thee, Malrin, that thou art last.”
“Nay sirrah!” quipped Malrin, “I knew my Lord when thou and thy wings were yet in the egg.”
Saith the angel, “Peace! hasten lest there be no bread for thee, rattle-tongue.”
“Ho,” quoth Malrin, “is it thus that thou knowest my Lord? Aye! I am his fool and have felt his lash but meseems that thou hast set thy ignorance to my folly, saying ‘Hasten lest there be an end to his bread.’”
Whereat the angel went in in wrath. And Malrin, turning slowly, beheld the last blue of twilight and the sinking of the silver of the stars. And the suns sank down like cooling gold in their crucibles, and there was a murmuring amid the azure curtains and far clarions from the keep of heaven, as a Muezzin crying, “Allah akbar, Allah il Allah! it is finished.’”
And Malrin beheld the broidery of the stars become as wind-worn tapestries of ancient wars. And the memory of all old songs swept by him as an host blue-robed trailing in dream, Odysseus, and Tristram, and the pale great gods of storm, the mailed Campeador and Roland and Villon’s women and they of Valhalla; as a cascade of dull sapphires so poured they out of the mist and were gone. And above him the stronger clarion as a Muezzin crying “Allah akbar, Allah il Allah, it is finished.”
And again Malrin, drunk as with the dew of old world druidings, was bowed in dream. And the third dream of Malrin was the dream of the seven and no man knoweth it.
And a third time came the clarion and after it the Lord called softly unto Malrin, “Son, why hast thou tarried? Is it not fulfilled, thy dream and mine?”
And Malrin, “O Lord, I am thy fool and thy love hath been my scourge and my wonder, my wine and mine extasy. But one left me awroth and went in unto thy table. I tarried till his anger was blown out.”
“Oh Lord for the ending of our dream I kiss thee. For his anger is with the names of Deirdre and Ysolt. And our dream is ended, PADRE.

>>17380073
I have very mixed feelings about him, I like his ideas, I get what he’s going for, but there’s always something missing in his poems for me. Like accuracy isn’t even needed as long as I find it is a good poem. The problem I think is, for one who calls himself an imagist, he doesn’t focus enough on creating beautiful images of natural and spiritual phenomena, he does but not enough, and he over fixates on trying to find beauty in non-conventional ways,

Cont

>>17380623
which yeah I get the point but if you can write about the sinking silver of stars and azure curtains of space, well I rather read that than alliterative verse about usury or Italian history. All In all I respect him but I feel with his interests and studies there’s certainly more beauty he could have crafted, but perhaps there’s many poems of his I haven’t read focusing on stuff that’s more suitable to my sensibilities and I’ve just not read it yet.

>>17380373
The actual Hitler and Mussolini movements are very distinct from the sort of things that everyone calls fascist today

>>17380847
I mean"Fascism" as used by historians, not woke twitter

>>17380174
That's correct

>>17380362
Read james gregor you dimwit

>>17379923
Fun fact: you know Emmett Till, blessed be his memory, well his father was imprisoned by the US Army for rape and was in a cage right next to Ezra when he was writing the Pisan Cantos. And he shows up in them too.

>>17380174
It's supposed to be just generally irreverent isn't it? Conservatives are all moralfags, just a different set of morals, nazis are moralfags too.

i get it's hard to be punk when you seem to have the same social beliefs as Hillary Clinton but that doesn't mean being a reactionary is punk either. I guess it's the difference between waving a swastika because it amuses you and sincerely idolizing hitler. The original punks did sometimes do stuff like wear swastikas but they weren't neo nazis, they were just being kind of childishly provocative.

>>17381007
>Emmett Till
HOLY HOLY HOLY fucking based

>>17381007
>Emmett Till
The original dindu nuffin.

>>17379935
Hugh Swelyn Mauberlay is the most perfect.

The Cantos, of course, are greater, but they demand *too much specific knowledge*. It's not that they are bad, it's that in order to enjoy them you need to have read Del Mar, Apollonius of Tyana, and other authors that very few people read today, not to mention having familiarity with peculiar details of Chinese and Renaissance history.

The only way to actually know all that is by reading and rereading the Cantos themselves. The more you reread, the more it starts to make sense - not because of some new illumination (although this happens too), but simply because you are now more familiar with the subjects being discussed, and therefore you stop to keep wondering "What is he talking about?" all the time.

>>17379923
>Ezra Pound, well known homosexual,
Why must everything be a joke? Why can we never have a serious thread? Why must every headache of modern society be received as a negative and imperative to hide away?

>>17382518
I’m actually pretty invested into esotericism, world religion, philosophy and somewhat history and so forth. I’ll definitely check that poem out. This is what I mean when I say I really want to like Ezra pound but the poems of his Ive read seem to miss something. Perhaps this will change my mind.

>>17382563
The Cantos?

It's 800 pages long. It's a tough read. Tougher than Uysses, Infinite Jest, and so on. You will benefit very greatly from buying a guide too. I recommend William Cookson's guide. It translates all the foreign language lines, and also comes with a lot of commentary.

I recommend reading the guide to each canto before the reading the canto itself. It will make things much, much clearer.

>>17380174
Yes.

>>17382563
This is a helpful intro to Pound
https://counter-currents.com/2020/10/remembering-ezra-pound-10/

And here's an intro to the kind of politics Pound liked and why he became a fascist (actually he was really more of a social credit man, he just saw fascism accomplishing similar goals)
https://counter-currents.com/tag/breaking-the-bondage-of-interest/

>>17382710
Eh I’m a fascist in the Italian sense along with a Hegelian among other things so his politics aren’t a negative or an oddity to me. I’ve read a decent amount of random poems from pound and random essays, I’ll read the links anyways. Thanks again anon.

>>17382723
You've read With Usura, I'm guessing? It gets memed because it's relatively easy to understand and its view is more and more relevant by the day, but just on the off chance you haven't
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/54319/canto-xlv

Here's him reading it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI23ULQvphU

Here's a modern reading that some people find kitschy and I see their point but I also think it captures the hate in an interesting way
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h08jdLoHBac

>>17382748
Know it? I wrote a counter point poem against it. Kek. I’ve considered reading his entire cantos but I feel I should dip my toes in more. I would say I’ve read maybe 16 ? Of his poems? Based on if their name jumped out to me.

I prefer the poetry to have a chanting quality so I find the recitations I’ve heard of pound and yeats of their own work to sound superior to more modern sounding recitation styles.


Here’s the counter point poem, not nearly as good as his and part of a 9 fold terza rima Poetry set based on Dante I wrote.

HYMN TO THE GREAT USURER

Come lord of usury, come forth master of Greed
Come forth volucrine God, obsessed with shiny gems
come Forth Yahn Usura, come by your accursed creed

Richest of the merchants, i know whence your will stems
your city of pleasure, the hidden zerzura
to the west of Dukhla, past the sands of Haarams

there is the white city, where a black Asura
guards the precious pearl gates, the avian idol
the black guard lets none pass, none but yours, Yahn Usura

i said “thou slave demon, thy force I shall bridle
Gold shines more than the sun, more valuable than Health
more beautiful than life, and the valley idyll”

the black devil replied, “you have the soul of wealth,
a Jewel of the king, i grant to you entrance”
thus I saw the idol, there before it I knelt

its peacock form unveiled, its true lustrous presence
emerald green, ruby red, Gold, pearl, sapphire blue
the key of its mouth shined, it spoke “I grant entrance”

i took the Golden key, the pearl gate I walked through
a multitude of gems, a multitude of slaves
exotic Jinn, serpents, and there precious birds flew

I reached your great palace, and jealousy in waves
washed over my body, “I must make it all mine
not for anyone else, for this my spirit craves”

as I entered that place, I saw there a great sign
a warning or a praise? “CONTRA NATURUM DEI”
and I passed to your throne, which smelt of richest wine


the Jewels of sorrow, of the work of man’s day
stacked high as a mountain, there do your talons sit
and count and shine your gems, for on Man’s life you prey

you spoke “come to me now, dearest slave I permit
you look upon my face, you are to cut your Gem
with the blade of the days, then that jewel submit

back to me, it was mine, for from me do you stem
and you shall be a shade, shining with avarice
and you will bare my name, the name of Dystheos”

>>17382825
Not good.
You try to use a strong, ripe, robust language, but fail due to excessive number of adjectives, words that are simply too strange or left unexplained but without suggesting much (Dukhla? Haarams? Asura?), and commonplace images (stacked high as a mountain).
It ends up looking convoluted and antiquated, rather than robust. You can see that the poet has a vision and a clear goal in mind, but he doesn't yet control the tools which are necessary to express it.

I recommend cutting the obscure stuff, the adjectives, and reading "hard" poets like Gerard Manley Hopkins, Geoffrey Hill, and more of Pound himself.

>>17383622
>You try to use a strong, ripe, robust language, but fail due to excessive number of adjectives, words that are simply too strange or left unexplained but without suggesting much (Dukhla? Haarams? Asura?), and commonplace images (stacked high as a mountain).

The poem is from a set of 9, each of them are invocations, filled with various cryptographic and gematric meanings. So meaningful obscurity, even the length of the syllable and rhyme pattern has a meaningful purposes but I personally find my writing in that poem rather sloppy all things considered.

Also a part of my writing style is just a ton of references to various parts of esotericism, Zerzura is an actual mythic city for example which has Sufi connotations

>It ends up looking convoluted and antiquated, rather than robust. You can see that the poet has a vision and a clear goal in mind, but he doesn't yet control the tools which are necessary to express it.

Thanks! I’m always trying to refine, I’m already a fan of Hopkins. But I haven’t read Hill. I’ll admit though I’m a big fan of purpleness and I like the antiquated aesthetic when possible.