/lit/ - Literature

Cool it wih the islam propaganda, mohamed

>>17372516
Question is 100% serious

>>17372509
>look, look, this seemingly well-adjusted White man is Islamic, don't you want to be a moslem now
No. P.S. Muhammad was not a prophet.

>>17372561
He's doing seven years in prison for ISIS affiliation, I'm actually just honestly looking for answer to my question

A Rawls would assume you are a basic westerner with a basic Western concept of the Good.
He has no answer to Islam, or eg Confucianism or anything else which has different concepts of the Good

>>17372555
oh my bad I thought it was lighthearted propaganda

>>17372509
If I ever find you Rawlsposter I'll put a nail through your spine for every thread and post you've made. There's a record, an accurate record, of your every indiscretion. You shameless swine.

>>17372509
No idea if Rawls wrote anything on Islam but in my amateur estimation, it's impossible square Rawlsian liberalism with Islam.

Islam and Islamic societies are total societies, in that religion supersedes politics. For the Muslim, religion occupies the realm of "naql" (revelation) while politics occupies the realm of "'aql" (reason) and Islamic theology has an interesting dynamic tension between the two. All naql are eternal, unchangeable, first principles, laws which all Muslims must follow, whether they like it or not. However, some aspects of life are either not clearly outlined or not all clarified in the divine revelation of Qur'an or the less important Hadiths and thus 'aql must be utilized to derive direction. All laws given by 'aql, must be in line with the first principles of naql (e.g. naql categorizes alcohol as sinful as it is an intoxicant. From this, 'aql can derive what other substances are sinful like marijuana).

Rawls bases his worldview that faith occupies a separate sphere divorced from the sphere of reason. First principles found by faith or ideologies are in his view, are not up to discussion in pluralistic societies and thus all politics must thoroughly be governed by practical reason which all parties can agree on. As such, the Rawls and Islam are not compatible; one believes reality is connected and is governed by a higher power whereas the other believes reality is negotiation between subjective "realities."

Note this does not mean Islamic societies can be or are necessarily "totalitarian" or "fatalistic" (although a lot of them are or seem like it today in our view). It just means Muslim are very firm in not selling out their principles and will only use complete reason in extraneous circumstances. Recall for instance, how Islam prohibits men from wearing silk yet Chinese Muslim somehow are excluded from this prohibition because 'aql determined that this particular cultural practice of silk-wearing was not in violation of naql. Or how the Mufti of Egypt completely permitted full abortions for all Bosniak women raped by Serbs during the Bosnian war, inf fear of the born "rape babies" being subjected to life-long shame and suffering which would push them to convert to Christianity and fight against Muslims.

If you're trying to find a way to marry Islam to some kind of "egalitarian" western ideology, it's better to study Heidegger or any German philosophers. I have found that Muslim are more receptive to such thinkers.

t. grew up in Muslim-Christian household

>>17372509
>>>"They don't have to be stoned," Musa says. "You could also cut their head off."
God I love Muslims.

>>17372509
>>17372833
Also converts like OP pic related really need to stfu and gtfo. Genuine Muslims are those whose ἔθνος ("ethnos") are shaped by centuries of religious practice and thought, not retard westerners who want an aesthetic to fuel their sociopathy.

>>17372925
Cringe. Nationalism is kufr.

>>17372509
>western convert is more radical than a significant amount of practicing muslims
Why is the west like this? Imagine if some retard from the Levant converted to Catholicism and started preaching about crusades.

>>17373009
>why are people who choose to join a religion more passionate about it than those who just happened to be born in it

>>17372965
Nationalism = kufr. Correct.
Being connected to your ethnos =/= nationalism. Also correct.
Your ethnos is عصبيّة which is shared conscious of social solidarity and cohesion, important to the foundation of civilization. Note that Islamic philosophy understood social cohesion as not necessarily one binding by blood but by some form unifying thought, akin to classical republicanism of the Greeks. For Muslim, this thought is Islam. Thus is why Muslims marry other Muslim and live among them as it strengthens عصبيّة. There's a Hadith that says "Allah is with the group" denoting the love for unity among Muslims and why many Muslim charity organizations strive for 12,000 donates and volunteers as it is believed that number is the best for founding a solid community.

>>17373009
Christianity came from the Levant

>>17373061
I’m a different poster than the one you replied to, but your posts are extremely interesting to me. Where do you see the place of converts in Islam? Isn’t it an evangelical and universalist religion?

>>17372509
>'Holy Mary, mother of God', and I was sort of like, 'Hold on a moment. Mother of God? God doesn't have a mother.'
Jesus does. Well, I mean, he would if he existed.

>>17372925
Based
Islam is shit though

>>17373338
Yes he's LARP'ing to reconcile his nationalism with Islam. Islam has been delivered by prophets to every people and the Qur'an is extremely clear it's for everyone and continually talks about the righteous defying their people to be Muslims

>>17373338
>Where do you see the place of converts in Islam?
The converts' place in Islam is to quite simply be Muslim. By this, I mean to fulfill the literal definition of Islam (إسلام: "Submission [to God]") through which they become Muslim (مُسْلِم: "One who submits [to God]"). Important to note that submission is not to be understood through lens of the polemics of vapid western orientalists who equate it with humiliating and oppressive subjugation, but through the triliteral semitic root of S-L-M which denote a range of words that relate to concepts of "wholeness, sincerity, and peace." Thus the Islamic/Hebrew greeting, "Salam/Shalom," meaning "peace be with you."

>Isn’t it an evangelical and universalist religion?
Islam is a universal religion, as the Qur'an said it was "sent as a mercy to all mankind." It is also, as you said, evangelical, in that Muslim spread the message of their religion. This is called "da'wah" دعوة.

But there are some caveats that must be pointed out. Firstly, as I learned from Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, universality does not necessarily mean uniformity. Or in Erich Fromm's formation: "Not sameness, but Oneness." Islam appeals to all peoples, yes, but this appeal manifests in particular ways. Take for instance the concept of prophecy: Muslims believe that Allah has created mankind "of various nations and tribes, so that they may come to know one another" (49:13) and that relatable prophets were sent to guide the diverse races of mankind: "I did not send any messenger except that he spoke the language of his people to explain to them.” (14:4) The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic partly because the Arabs were said to be, according to theologians, the most corrupt nation on the Earth and Muhammad was chosen to be their Prophet as he was the most virtuous among them, before even knowing of Islam. Yet even though Muhammad preached in Arabic to Arabs, the message, mores, the myths (note the many references to Biblical prophets in the Qur'an) was universal and thus confirmed him to be Khatam an-Nabiyyin (خاتم النبيين, "Seal of the Prophets"). In other words, Muhammad expressed the universal in the particular, rather than expressing the universal in a "uniform" language that could be understood by everyone.

I didn't understand this until I read Tolstoy's War and Peace and saw how the overarching "universal history" of the Napoleonic Wars served to also express the particular narratives of love of Bezukov and Rostov families––narratives which are in themselves, universal because everyone experiences love one way or another.

>>17373972
Is there a good English source for thought along these lines?

>>17373972
>Firstly, as I learned from Sheikh Hamza Yusuf,

Why would you take from a Shaykh who is widely promoted by the U.S. state department and the UAE government? You do realize his primary function is to conform Islam to their policies?

>>17372925
This is by the way eating the flesh of your brother. Nothing he said is sociopathic unless you consider Muhammad ﷺ a sociopath as well. It's also made explicit clear that he accepted Islam for purely theological reasons, not aesthetic. Your statement is a serious sin

>>17373338
>>17373972
A last note on evangelicalism: da'wah (دعوة) is literally translated as "invitation." Not "calling" or "convert by force." To engage in "da'wah" is to politely share the message of Islam, either orally ("And by the mercy of Allah you dealt with them gently. If you were harsh and hardhearted, they would have fled from around you" 3:159) or through good manners. It is the religious manifestation of the ancient Arab bedouin practices of hospitality––a practice that served to continue the survival of the Arab race––now extended to all mankind. Because da'wah is an invitation, you can thereby reasonably see how the forced conversions of ISIS and past empires were not "Islamic" at all but "Islamist"––that is, Islam with a political intent (remember politics is 'aql which supposed to be subordinate to naql as I said in >>17372833) Further, you can also see how and why early Muslim da'ees (missionaries) were quite selective in which peoples and nations to spread Islam to. In Indonesia, where I claim my heritage from, the message of Islam was shared with local aristocrats and rulers. The thinking was the rulers and aristocrats were the most respected of their race and could influence them into accepting the religion. Thus, whenever a local Javanese or Sumatran raja converted to Islam, the peasants followed, thinking their wise raja made the right choice. Inevitably, choosing to align with the Islamic ecumene (ummah) was beneficial for both Arabs and Indonesian as it opened a new road for their spice trade and a new outpost for Islamic philosophy.

>>17374027
And what if people refuse the invitation?

>>17374027
>politics is all

No there are revealed elements of politics. Saying there aren't is gross ignorance as the Qur'an and Sunnah says plenty on it. Furthermore aql plays a part in Islamic jurisprudence and always has because you need it to apply revelation

>>17372833
>For the Muslim, religion occupies the realm of "naql" (revelation) while politics occupies the realm of "'aql" (reason)
You made this up. There is no basis whatsoever for saying aql has no place in religion, the Qur'an repeatedly appeals to it. Furthermore saying there are no revelations about politics is either deception or ignorance, as there are many

>>17374039
Then they must pay the jizya

>>17373061
Bro this is a very shoddy logical basis for your racism. Islam is obviously for everyone, dissuading someone from converting is you just being s bigot

>>17373999
Eating the flesh of your brother is a sin as per >>17374014

>>17374014
Musa from OP's post literally supports ISIS which is sociopathic and against the spirit of Islam which I'm sure you would agree with: https://www.baka.com.au/lifestyle/musa-cerantonio-muslim-convert-and-radical-supporter-of-islamic-state-20141205-121c8s.html

>>17374053
>>17374061
I'm open to being corrected, brothers. Can you clarify further?

>>17374071
Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
My post:
>Note that Islamic philosophy understood social cohesion as not necessarily one binding by blood but by some form unifying thought, akin to classical republicanism of the Greeks.

>>17373998
Honestly, I read Islamic theological journals. Renovatio, is a particular favorite of mine.

>>17372509
>Does he ever have an answer to the discrepancy in it between laws for men and women, slave and free, and biggest of all, believer and unbeliever?
People who are inherently different have different laws applied to them? Who would have thought.
Liberalism is a disease.

>>17374120
>Musa from OP's post literally supports ISIS which is sociopathic and against the spirit of Islam which I'm sure you would agree with
I don't, on the contrary I would say only someone who is historically illiterate thinks ISIS is worse than the khalifates of yore. The Ottomans were just as brutal, so were their predecessors. However ISIS at least is sincerely religious whereas those dynasties were not

>>17373999
>Hamza Yusuf
>Sheikh

Oofa

Could you be more specific about supposed discrepancies you are referring to?

Many aspects of the Sharia when viewed from the contemporary western ideological lense seem outdated and unequal but if one is operating upon the natural disposition of their humanity, which is surrender to what Allah and His messenger صل الله علیه و آله و سلم have legislated, these rulings which appear limiting actually become liberators from the chains of enslavement to one's own caprice and devil

>>17372509
>"I mean, looking at the Sistine Chapel, seeing this old man with a beard, and they're telling me that's the God they worship? I'm like, 'The Ten Commandments says you shouldn't make images of God.' I realised when we'd pray back in primary school, we'd say, 'Holy Mary, mother of God', and I was sort of like, 'Hold on a moment. Mother of God? God doesn't have a mother.' And I was like, 'Damn ... this is pretty weird.' I realised that the Catholic Church were absolute nut-jobs." At the age of 17, he converted to Islam.

I never understand why people think the answer to this question is Islam instead of Judaism.

>>17372509
>so like, like so like like like
are all anglos born with this tick? do you have any idea who annoying and aggravating you sound?

>>17372509
Why would I care what some Islamic wog in a perfum shop has to say or think.

>>17372789
ha ha she seems fucking obsessed with him

>>17374061
>There is no basis whatsoever for saying aql has no place in religion

He never said that. He said it is superseded by it. The way I read it it sounded a little like the relationship between a constitution and a legislature. The former is supreme but needs interpretation is some realms when it comes to implementation.

>>17375797
Judaism is henotheistic

>>17374014
And here is the problem people. Point out someone is a murderous sociopath and you will still be denounced as sinful. This is why Islam as a whole can never be reasoned with and must never be allowed have any kind of institutional power. Tolerance may work with other religions. It will never work with islam.

>>17375917
If you can't criticize Islam without pathologizing it, you are a midwit.

>>17375925
Why?

>>17375927
Because you're not actually saying anything. You're just pointing out that a different ethical system draws different conclusions than your own ethical system as if that's enough to refute it. Plus, it's just retarded because ISIS is obviously not sociopathic. They love their family and friends just like everyone else. They just hate you.

>>17375959
>They love their family and friends just like everyone else. They just hate you.

Read this folks and take heed. Never ever let them have power. Never.

>>17375959
>ISIS is obviously not sociopathic. They love their family and friends just like everyone else.
m8 have you seen the videos they post online? A good deal of those guys are clearly psychos

>>17375884
Legislation is not allowed in Shari'ah, and you're confusing legislature with judicial

>>17375969
>P1. ISIS beheads people
>P2. ???
>C. ISIS are psychos.
Explain.

>>17375897
Imbecile

>>17375972
Have you seen the videos? They are obviously not. Executions are like less than1% of what they publish

>>17375998
Rabbis can overrule God in Judaism. This is part of their beliefs

>>17376000
No they can't you fucking imbecile. Stupid imbecile too dumb to google actual Jewish jurisprudence.

>>17375998
Read the Hebrew Bible dummy

>>17373737
since he did and it's indubitable he did have a mother.

>>17376069
>A Divine Voice emerged from Heaven and said: Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?

>Rabbi Yehoshua stood on his feet and said: It is written: “It is not in heaven” (Deuteronomy 30:12). The Gemara asks: What is the relevance of the phrase “It is not in heaven” in this context? Rabbi Yirmeya says: Since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a Divine Voice, as You already wrote at Mount Sinai, in the Torah: “After a majority to incline” (Exodus 23:2). Since the majority of Rabbis disagreed with Rabbi Eliezer’s opinion, the halakha is not ruled in accordance with his opinion. The Gemara relates: Years after, Rabbi Natan encountered Elijah the prophet and said to him: What did the Holy One, Blessed be He, do at that time, when Rabbi Yehoshua issued his declaration? Elijah said to him: The Holy One, Blessed be He, smiled and said: My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me.

>>17376131
I don't know why I found that so hard to read but anyway. It's a bit of a paradox really though isn't it because it's God saying "he's right go with him" so it's still God approving of the opinion.

>>17375992
How am I confusing the legislature with the judicial? Though I see your point in terms of a challenge to the constitution coming before the Justices something like extrapolating that Marijuana should be illegal would come from the legislature, or at least, it would be them who would legislate it. It's not a perfect analogy because the U.S constitution doesn't mention intoxication but a constitution theoretically *could*.

>>17376169
It's not a paradox, the rabbi was in fact arguing a point based on saying this is the definitive and correct meaning of the law and God himself will say so, so God supposedly does with multiple signs and even does this and says this rabbi is correct but the other rabbis overrule him saying no

>>17376187
First of all the constitution is just an instruction manual for lawmaking. The bill of rights are very small and an after thought. But anyway the court interprets the constitution, not the legislature. The legislature is about making laws not interpreting the constitution which only saws how government functions, not what laws to make. The idea it functions to make laws is a left wing reading that appeared later in order to essentially allow the judicial branch to legislate

>>17376267
Like I said, this is a failure to understand Jewish jurisprudence. Calling it Henotheistic is balls to the wall retarded.

>>17374751
>Be an Ottoman Muslim
>Conquered Constantinople with Mehmed II
>Witnessed him say Shahada at the Hagia Sophia and helped reconstruct the Cathedral into a mosque
>Helped him erect 8 madrasahs in the city
>Planned the construction of the Faith Mosque
>Assisted with administrative repopulation of the city's Christian, Jewish, and Orthodox population, along with Muslim "sürgüns"
>Be laissez-faire with non-Muslim subjects so as long they pay tax
>Invited and patronized Muslim astronomers, Italian artists, and Greek scholars to the sultan's court
>Witness Istanbul become the largest city in Europe fifty years later
>Continue to serve the Ummah under Suleiman I
>Advised the Sultan in various campaigns to defend Aceh, Somalia, and Tunis from Christian incursions
>Team up with Catholic France and dissident Protestants against Habsburg imperialism
>Formalized legal system with kanun-i osmani
>Issued firmans to protect Jews from blood libel
>Renovated the Dome of the Rock, restored the Kaaba
>Listened to the Sultan compose great poetry, affirming the traditions of old bedouin Arabs
>feelproud.jpeg
>Passes away
>Meets >>17374751 in afterlife
>Get told that he is a Munafiq because a bunch of terrorists in Al-Sham made edgy decapitation videos
>tfw

>>17376301
The Ottomans massacred Christians who paid jizya all the time. They were extremely brutal. They would also force jizya paying Christians to fight, haram. Stealing a church from jizya paying Christians and making it a mosque is haram. In short they were much worse than ISIS, which would never do these things, and the Ottomans legalized sodomy in the 19th Century. They treated their slaves much more brutality than ISIS did while promoting modernism. Nonetheless LARP'ers like yourself romanticize them like Christians do the crusaders

>>17376344
Better a LARPer for a civilization that contributed to the world than an apologist for khawarij terrorism. Anyhow, it's only a matter of time until pic-related is fully clear of the red blots. Best you finish up your suicide vest and kill yourself while you have the chance.

>>17376382
Almost all the contributions you listed are achievements from a kufri perspective, not an Islamic one (indeed you extol their service to the dunya, not Allah). Dismissing jihad as khawarij makes the Ottomans khawarij by your logic so this is pointless.

>>17372509
this is what happens when you dont actually read the bible

>>17376426
He was a Catholic, anon

>>17376430
ok? I assume that means raised catholic and never actually cared about it. If he read the Bible he wouldnt be asking why Mary is the Theotokos or why we make depictions of God despite the 10 Commandments saying not to. But then again if he read the Bible he wouldnt be Catholic.

>>17374751
>sincerely religious

please explain what’s religious about suicide bombing since you’re such an expert on Islamic orthodoxy

>>17376463
Fighting the enemy is considered very religious in Islam and dying in that capacity is regarded as noble. Do not regard suicide bombing as just blowing yourself up for the heck of it, it's the only serious guerilla answer to artillery and air strikes. Since Napoleon artillery (which drones are extension of) commanded the field. Since the 20th Century the answer guerillas developed in response is manual detonation of charges. This was used to great effect by the Vietcong

>>17376491
blow yourself up then khawarij cunt

>>17376514
Martyrdom operations aren't done unilaterally generally, but are asked for by commanders, generally to veterans whom they can be sure aren't double agents and won't chicken out

If you label everyone who makes jihad as khawarij, where does this leave you seeing as how Islam asserts there will always be a Jamaat making jihad?

>>17372632
A basic Western concept of the Good is the Aristotelian one which is directly correlated to teleology and human nature. Rawls doesnt even understand that so his stuff is only stuff that is relevant for very recent modernity.

>>17372509
>"I mean, looking at the Sistine Chapel, seeing this old man with a beard, and they're telling me that's the God they worship? I'm like, 'The Ten Commandments says you shouldn't make images of God.' I realised when we'd pray back in primary school, we'd say, 'Holy Mary, mother of God', and I was sort of like, 'Hold on a moment. Mother of God? God doesn't have a mother.' And I was like, 'Damn ... this is pretty weird.' I realised that the Catholic Church were absolute nut-jobs." At the age of 17, he converted to Islam.
Had this guy come into contact with a non-pozzed evangelical Protestant denomination in Australia (such as the Presbyterian Church, Forward in Faith aligned Anglican or many Baptist Churches) he could've had this tension resolved for him. Westerners who reach for Islam seem to either be very bookish mystics or homicidal underachievers.
>Musa seems to know everyone in Footscray. He moseys down the street with his hand in his pocket, shooting "Salaam alaikums" and small talk to the perfume salesman in the mall and the old men in a Sudanese restaurant. He's like the Fonz. We chew on Sudanese meat dishes in the restaurant.
He also gets to play Lawrence of Arabia every day now too. Had he become a real Christian he'd just be some guy. But Muslim groups in Australia fall over themselves for white and especially Anglo converts with fair features. Propaganda coup. I know there are Muslims ITT so I'll just make clear I'm not challenging the validity of Islam here, merely the depth of feeling and the origin of that feeling from bored bourgeois converts in the West. You guys scalp (not literally) some very intelligent old dudes every now and then so stick to that. You don't need the baggage of guys who would've become neetsocs just as easily

>>17376523
Then why don't you seek out a commander? Not helping your so called brothers merely out of cowardice is surely a sin worthy of decapitation. Whereas as I have never had Islam revealed to me; you have and reject doing what you know to be religiously justified. This is apostasy and you will burn in hell for hypocrisy unless you act.

>>17376712
It's odd that they always seem to go for the most extreme abrogation of spirituality as well instead of exploring, for example, Sufism.

I would imagine you are right and it comes down to desperately needing a sense of identity and importance where they have failed to achieve this anywhere else. Religious terrorists have no standards so they'll accept anyone, no matter how dubious, their character as long as they are willing to set aside their morals.

In general extremism is for the intellectually lazy. People who would rather live in a walled garden because existing outside it involves survival and self determination.

>>17376794
Avoiding fighting when it's necessary is considered a sign that you're not a real Muslim but was never punished by beheading. Obviously I don't avoid it but there are logistical elements to consider, the powers that be do quite a bit to hamper it

.>>17376824
The Ottomans were sufis and used terrorism, I'm not sure why you contrast sufism with terrorism, also not sure what element of it you consider spiritual not present in Salafi thought

>>17376824
>Religious terrorists have no standards so they'll accept anyone, no matter how dubious
Also this is completely false, they were all very rigorous about vetting in order to avoid infiltration. Only ISIS accepted anyone because they declared statehood and therefore it became an obligation to

>>17376844
Surely there were logistical considerations for the ones that are currently fighting? Can you not get out a loan. You will end up in hell for not participating in a fight you know is just. These sound like excuses.

>>17376925
Dying with a debt puts you in hell even if you're martyred

>>17376844
I contrast Sufism with terrorism because Sufism allows for personal interpretation and Salafism does not. Salafism by definition is extremist and Sufism is not.

>>17376935
Salafis define Sufism as extremist

Sufism does not allow private interpretation. Interpretation is considered an academic and very serious matter. Sufis and Salafis differ in interpretation but neither takes it lightly

>>17376932
Then solicit donations. Work a job and save. Surely you have a plan in place for this? Excuses excuses. Your brothers are out fighting on your behalf. how could you expect any true muslim to associate with you?

>>17376945
>Surely you have a plan in place for this?
Of course, and in fact I pray every day for Allah's help in this matter and that he makes me a shaheed

>>17376942
Reading into it more I see you a right. Is there no branch of Islam that allows you to merely strive to be a good person and reject arbitrary rules like avoiding pork?

>>17376964
Yes, it's called nifaq

>>17374120
So you think the entire ethnos of white people has to be Islamic or none at all? This is ridiculous and will not spread your religion. Everything has to be done in a piecemeal fashion. Soul by soul.

>>17376980
Ok so none. I wish I had the peace spiritual laziness brings.

>>17376953
>I'm praying someone will buy me a flight

You don't really think he buys this do you?

>>17377039
Pretty sure you're the lazy one if any restrictions on your behavior or expected discipline is too much for you

>>17377046
I work. Obviously

>>17377050
Mindless discipline is meaningless. I'm far more disciplined than you will ever be. Think of all the good things you could have done in God's favour if you weren't trying to appease him with:

>Look at I didn't eat between sunrise and sunset. Where's my good boy points God?

>>17377443
If you can't do the small things, you aren't ready for the big things

>>17376430
exactly, point proven

>>17378574
Again. More excuses.

>>17376712
>He also gets to play Lawrence of Arabia every day now too.

bingo. my thoughts exactly

>>17380637
He doesn't dress like an Arab and he is currently serving seven years in prison for joining ISIS in the Philippines