/lit/ - Literature

>>17295645
Thanks, anon. Very cool!

We're all aware that reading translations is a mental illness, but thanks for the reminder, OP.

>>17295645
Yeah, a lot of things get lost in translation
its nothing new

>>17295667
what boggles my mind is how can ANYONE praise russian lit after reading it in translation? THERES NOTHING TO PRAISE.

>>17295674
you know a book isn't just language but also ideas ? that's why people praise Dostoevsky.

>>17295674
Western European obsession with the deep mysterious Russian soul.

>>17295692
if you want ideas, then open wikipedia

book's prose is its first and foremost quality. everything comes second

>>17295674
KEK anon, he has a point. I wouldn't be able to translate McCarthy books to Portuguese (my native language) without a bunch of notes, but it is not like it loses all of its appeal. People often opt to a localization, but that can end with weird results if it is not aimed at an specific public.

>>17295645
which translations?
Also, what's your level of english? when did you start learning. It seems decent from your post but I wouldn't be surprised if you got filtered by the archaic english language (which reflects dostoevsky's language in Russian)

>>17295715
>I wouldn't be able to translate McCarthy books to Portuguese (my native language) without a bunch of notes, but it is not like it loses all of its appeal.
OP here

i cannot imagine reading mccarthy's books in russian. this is what i mean. fuck this shit

>dude translations suck, do not read translations!
Also /lit/:
>omg King James Bible is the most beautiful work of English prose
>what do you mean you didn't start with the Greeks?
Poseurs be damned.

>>17295645
Which translations did you read?

>>17295645
>>17295726
Also, do you have any sections you could give as examples that lose their magic? I studied Russian for several years in college, I've forgotten most vocab but I can definitely understand stuff with a dictionary to reference. Curious what differences you see.

>>17295735
lmfao this

>>17295761
>>17295735
OP here

i didn't mean to say that all translations suck. just that the russian->english translators suck

>>17295645
Yeah we get it. You come from a shitty country with a slightly above from average lit.
t. non-anglo

>>17295784
>You come from a shitty country with a slightly above from average lit.
i agree with you 100%, actually i'm annoyed that russian lit is shilled so much here. it's not that good

>>17295767
I've read about 40 Russian books, in either Spanish or English translations. The first book I read as an adult, after years of not reading, was Anna Karenina. I think writers like Tolstoy, Dosto, Turguenev, Chekhov, Andreiev and Bulgakov are great.
I don't need to speak Russian, be Russian or have lived in 19th century Russia to appreciate the beauty and atmosphere in A Huntsman's Sketches. There's something there, and most celebrated Russian lit, that trascends circumstances, styles or prose.

The only Russian translations that left me unsatisfied are
The Petty Demon
The Captain's Daughter
Dead Souls
The Slynx
The White Guard
5 out of 40. The reason for these exceptions, I think, must be that the originals have something too idiosyncratic, a humor or aesthetic sense, that just doesn't translate too well. Or maybe the translators sucked.
Since all translations are more or less inferior, complaining about it is a trivial matter. I've never read a P&V translation, but Garnett's and the random translators all managed to convey meaning and impress me. I honestly don't give a fuck about some random guy's uneducated and untrained opinion about a language's translatability after he skimmed a couple books.

>>17295645
Yea, its extremely stale and not worth reading at all
I wish i could read it in Russian, iv read it in Croatian and English and the Croatian translation was much better, maybe since its closer to Russian

>>17295941
I like P&V's translation of dead souls, I thought it was absolutely hysterical. And way easier reading than their translations of Dostoevsky

>>17295645
Only brainlets read translations.

>>17295645
Tolstoy liked the Maude translation. If it's good enough for him it's certainly good enough for me. As for Dostoevsky, all the smartest Russians I know say he's quite a poor stylist so I'm not really bothered that I have to read his works in translation.

>>17295696
Same thing Jap lit.

>>17296058
*With

>>17295941
based post

fuck off saying translations lose everything man so wrong. im addicted to russian lit, fav translators are marian schwartz and desu even though P&V aren't perfect by a long shot i've read a lot of translators and professors comparing works and they all pretty much say P&V is the scholarly standard, although obviously they go too far with the literalism and lack of creativity to bridge the gaps in translation which i think someone like schwartz according to good authority is much better at. i think donald rayfield and robert chandler are really good as well, and some others

>>17295941
>I've read about 40 Russian books, in either Spanish or English translations
in your experience what language from Russian does it translate better, English or Spanish?

>>17296131
I would need to read Russian to know which one works best, as well as comparing both versions, neither of which I'll ever bother with. Either language's flowed fine. It's not like French or Italian into Spanish, which will translate better for obvious reasons (Romance languages, etc).
Roberto Arlt, an Argentine writer, read cheap Russian translations by the dozen (probably sourced from French) and some argue he's one of the best Argie writers (contrarians will hold him above Borges), so clear is the influence of the Russians and the 'psychological depth'. This stuff is mostly universal. The same applies to Sábato though I'm not a huge fan of either.

>>17295715
>KEK
do you do this in every single post

>>17295692
Dostoevsky writes novels so he can transmit his views to the reader but Tolstoy's end is to tell the story. Tolstoy is for pseuds.

>>17296313
No, only when I feel like chuckling.

>>17295645
>tfw I really want to read Russian lit in Russian but I can't even finish learning German
It sucks to be a brainlet

>>17295645
the same problem exists translating from English to Russian

>>17295735
>>omg King James Bible is the most beautiful work of English prose
Tbf that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good translation, merely that the translator wrote well.

>>17295784
>shitty country
Tbf on a worldwide scale, Russia is okay
But I can't deny that most of Russia outside Moscow and St Petersburg is... poor.

As an american who’s actually decent at the russian language (don’t make fun of me i made a bad choice at university) the problem with basically all translations of russian lit is the translator being way too fucking liberal with the word order. Sentences that are, for example, at the top of a given page in a Russian text can regularly be found on the subsequent page in the English translation. I get why to a certain extent, but jesus does it fuck with the flow and rhythm of the prose.

>>17295645
Dosto is why I want to learn Russian, but I can't justify learning a language for 1 author.

>>17296363
>decent at the russian language (don’t make fun of me i made a bad choice at university
Why is it a "bad choice"? Russian is a pretty respected language, and it is 100% helpful for work with Diplomats. The CIA and FBI also recruit Russian speakers.

>>17296355
moscow and spb are poor too

>>17296374
They all made fun of me for it when i lived there

>>17296371
that's retarded

OP here. the translations are shit but the books themselves are just above average

why would you learn a language for just above average books?
>Russian is a pretty respected language
nah

>>17296396
They sound cool and their women are hot too. Also Putin is basedchad, even if he is a corrupt puppet

>>17296411
>their women are hot too
for some reason i think this is the only reason why westerners read russian lit and pretend to be interested in "russian culture"

i guess if our women were ugly no one would care about russia at all

>>17296426
>i guess if our women were ugly no one would care about russia at all
probably. I actually really like Dostoevsky though, I don't care if that means I'm retarded.

>>17296426
Lol you can literally talk to any male foreigner there and it won’t be long before they mention how hot and easy the women are. Whether that’s posturing i can’t exactly say but i did make out with three girls at a night club there once

>>17296470
My bad i should have been more specific and said westerner

>>17295645
>everything just reads as if it was written by a robot
That's just how Russians sound to English speakers OP.

>>17295941
Glorious pragmatic Anon.

>>17296426
The reason people are interested in Russian literature is that it's a living Indo-European language and culture, heavily influenced by Western Europe, but also seems like a completely distinct civilization in some ways. That and the 19th century literary output in Russia was ridiculously consistent. Tolstoy is considered by many the greatest novelist, Chekhov the greatest short story writer, and people like Lermontov, Gogol, Dostoevsky, etc. simply arouse curiosity.

>>17295709
Exactly!!! People should stop pushing the classics on others in school. Teach us some actual enjoyable writing not these stupid and difficult pretentious authors like f scott fitzgerold and herman melvil

>>17296426
stupid self-hated russian here
Кoгдa жe вы yжe пoимeeтe хoть чyть caмoyвaжeния и пepecтaнeтe пиcaть бpeд. Mнe cтыднo зa тo чтo ты тyт пишeшь, этo aбcoлютный нoнceнc. У тeбя пoхoжe кaкиe тo пpoблeмы c эмпaтиeй, дpyг.

>>17296396
>>Russian is a pretty respected language
>nah
What makes you say that?

>>17296426
Russia is interesting because it's pretty alien while still being familiar.
It's Christian, but Orthodox rather than Catholic
It speaks a Indo-European language, but writes in its own alphabet that was specially tailored for Slavs
It's European, yet more than half of it is in Asia
It's "rugged" and "rustic" and yet it went to Space and gave us the Periodic Table
It's Men are seen as masculine and strong, and it's women are seen as beautiful and charming.
People often "dislike" Russia for its politics, but I never met anyone who disrespects Russia as a culture. Likewise, I rarely meet people who dislikes Russians as individuals (albeit all my Estonian friends seem to lmao)

>>17295735
Whenever I tell people to start with the Greeks my implication is that they should learn the basics of Ancient Greek and then actually read those texts before considering their literary journey. There’s no point otherwise. It’s like trying to learn calculus without ever having learned to add and subtract

>>17297188
this, something about Russian people is so fucking cool

>>17295645
Chad Slavic language vs incel Norman.

>>17296545
Another Harry Potter retard

>>17295726
>the archaic english language (which reflects dostoevsky's language in Russian)
Dosto's language isn't especially archaic, to my sense. Being a learner of Russian, I found him notably easier than Tolstoy, for example.

>>17296363
>Sentences that are, for example, at the top of a given page in a Russian text can regularly be found on the subsequent page in the English translation
Lol, that's just page formatting. Completely irrelevant.
However, that the word order within a particular sentence does matter a lot is true, and English translators fuck it up. P&V kind of do it better than the rest, but they are outright amateurs in some other regards.

>>17296396
Boring self-hatred.

Despite all this whining about translations and their bad choices (I did a comparison of a passage from Anna Karenina just a week ago), they still somehow find an audience. Perhaps your obsession with style does not quite reflect the reading process of other people?
It's not like literature is just a balloon, filled with nothing and held together by style. Some of it is like that, yes, but the realist masterpieces have much else to offer as well.

>>17295645
Yeah, this problem is probably why you should learn Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, etc., if you want to read Dostoyevsky.
Another alternative would be Japanese, since it's so impossible to translate into, in the classical sense, that the Japs just get their young and talented authors to simply rewrite the book they want "translated".

>>17297319
>Being a learner of Russian, I found him notably easier than Tolstoy, for example.
I found the opposite, Tolstoy writes practically like he is giving a dictée to children
>prince andrei stands up and goes to the window
>prince andrei looks out and he wonders about blah blah
>at this time prince andrei returns to the other room

>>17297319
yeh. but still archaic in the sense of 150+ years old.

>>17295645
its like imagine you have tastebuds for russian soup and english soup. When english people who dont have your tastebuds try russian soup it just tastes like water. But instead of engineering russian tastebuds for enlglish people i can configure the russian soup recipe to be an aproximation of the soup that works for english tastebuds. Because they have no concept of the Russian taste they think its something cool and novel but because you have both the adaptation or aproximation of the russian soup tastes like shit.

Its also like imagine if you have acustomed yourself to eating candy all your life and synthetic flavours and then try real fruit. Theres a 50/50 chance the person will reject the real fruit or realize that their synthetic candies and fake juices are bullshit and never want to eat them again.

I would say that as a person who doesnt understand russian i have read war and peace and found it very good in english but works like Brothers Karamazov are like words coming off a page and nothing sticks.

I wish i knew slavic languages because i am of serbian descent but my mother was a drunk careerist who never bothered to raise me.

>>17297319
>Being a learner of Russian
>boring self-hatred
Why are you lying and concealing the truth? Youre not a "learner of russian" you ARE a russian

>>17296983
>нoнceнc
Ironic that you'd use such an egregious loanwoard.

>>17297457
>but works like Brothers Karamazov are like words coming off a page and nothing sticks.
This 100% describes it. english->slavic translations just feel so ARTIFICIAL

which is weird, because the iliad for example was translated beautifully into english

>>17297188
>>17297238

>>17297188
>It's Men are seen as masculine and strong
esp. yr shitty engliish confirms that russian mongoloid hands typed that post

its so pathetic desu. russian shills, shilling for their home country, while pretending to be foreigners giving "praise from beyond"

the rock bottom of sad.

>>17297319
>that the word order within a particular sentence does matter a lot is true

What i mean is that in Russian sentences can go pretty much just on forever whereas in English you can’t really go past four lines. This leads to the prose being fucky comparatively

>>17297188
You put it perfectly.

>>17295645
>I can't understand how anyone right in their mind could enjoy such castrated pile of shit
Anglo here. I can't stand to read Russian lit in the origina eitherl. Every translation I've tried of Dosto or Tolstoy has read like utter garbage, especially P&V whose translations are almost laughably terrible to read. Trying to read their Brothers K was like wading through muck. I don't know how people force themselves through them. I guess Russian is too far from English to be adequately translatable, at least when literature is concerned.

>>17297188
Cringe

>>17297626
* in translation

>>17295709
read poetry retard

I've read Bukowski both in english and russian. Felt no difference.
Same with Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Salinger and Huxley.
I donno how does this characterize me as reader, but the idea that "Lost Generation" wrote for everyone everywhere kinda warms me up.

Well said, anon. Guess it’s time to learn Russian.

>>17297711
Every noun in russian has a gender, male, female and neuter.
This feature is truly a nightmare for every english-native learner of russian language.
Good fucking luck.

>>17295645
>I can't understand how anyone right in their mind could enjoy such castrated pile of shit
all trasnaltions are castrated but one thing you can say is that translations usually read very fast because there's little in the way of difficult language to stumble over and they've been optimized for smoothness. enough of the content in dostoevsky makes it through for this to be worth it, i think you are exaggerating how bad the english versions are

>>17297354
In Tolstoy the most difficult thing to me is the wide vocabulary and specific terminology he uses while describing things. In Dosto the language is more abstract, and confined to a narrower sphere of terms.

>>17297468
Guess I'm making good progress!

>>17297534
I don't notice any significant difference between Russian and English sentence length. The polysyllabic tendency of Russian and the physically wide cyrillic letters can contribute to the illusion of length, but grammatically there's not that much fundamental differences between the two systems. Some useful aspects of russian come to mind, but they would actually take up more space when translated into English (for example, those verbs turned into adjectives turned into nouns, whatever you call it).

>>17295645
Russian doesn't translate well into English. It's a shame.

I do suspect some works are just going to be inevitably inaccessible outside their own language. I can't imagine how one would translate some of the gnarlier sections in Joyce into other languages and retain the whole character of the work. Dosty doesn't strike me as the kind of linguistically maniacal sperglord that would run aground in the same spot as Joyce, in this sense at least, but then again I don't speak any Russian.

Good thing everything still sounds good and keeps its depth in German translations no matter the original language

>>17295941
based!

>>17296327
reading kazamarov brothers and is so much more enjoyable than Tolstoy.
Like holy fuck, who finds mundane high class society interesting (women).

>>17297485
but the Iliad has had nearly 500 years (depending what you count as "English") of time for that, Dosto and Tolstoy are new in comparison

>>17295735
there is no contradiction or hypocrisy there, you're just retarded.

>>17300351
Sounds like you got filtered, kiddo. Stick to The Capital.

>>17296327
What the fuck? It follows from your description that Dostoevsky is for pseuds, not Tolstoy. You absolute tasteless drone. Neither of them is, though.

>>17296545
Agreed. Don't raise kids on stuffy old academics' translations of the classics. We need to be teaching and demonstrating a genuine love for where language can take us. We need to show kids what beauty can look like in prose before we can expect them to want to know WHY it's beautiful; that is to say, the historicity of language and its early influences.

>>17295645
angl*s have extremely low standards it literature
I mean, I've heard multiple times calling Joyce's "The Dead" the best short story ever written
needless to say, it's not even on the level of anything Chekhov wrote

>>17295645
fuck off and blog elsewhere

>>17300689
low test for sure

I have a theory that the reason ethnic Russians always pontificate about the untranslatable greatness of their national literary figures is that most great Russian literary figures weren't ethnic Russians and most ethnic Russians cannot grasp the conceptual content of their own great books.

>>17301026
It's not just russians, though.
Go make a Proust thread and a frog will jump on your face within 5 minutes saying how you didn't actually read it if it was a translation

>>17295674
kek

>>17295645
Дocтoeвcкий и в opигинaлe дoвoльнo-тaки yбoг. Turgenev is a far superior writer.

>>17301044
same with germans and Goethe

Pyccкиe идyт нaхyй нa двaч

>>17301571
pot calling kettle a nigger