/lit/ - Literature

retarded thread. read the book before making a thread about it.

>>17252840
Anon he wrote a 3000 page critique of capital. I haven't read it yet but I'm sure he didn't say that.

>>17252922
I'm not reading commie garbage. This book has one purpose only to justify dictatorship and stealing money. It is evil talmudic lies used by wicked demons who wish to corrupt our civilization for their gain. FUCK MARXISM

he said it's bad because it causes crises and does not account for the real problems in the society by disenfranchising the worker

>>17252943
Based and correct even without reading it

>>17252943
what do you read?

>>17252943
holy fucking based and christpilled. Deus vult!

>>17252943
You're already living under a dictatorship, a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. But I don't expect a mouthbreather like you to see beyond the spectacle.

>>17253056
n-no! it's not true! I vooted for the one party and not the other. They're different. I can call my representative and have him pretend to listen!

>>17252943
the fact this got 2 based posts just tells you how far americans are gone. i hope your faggot country burns

>>17252840
Let’s discuss politics from an Islamic perspective.

>>17253067
don't be serious-poisoned brah, they're shitposts.

>>17253056
>but if we have a revolution and seize complete and utter control over society in order to reform it it will totally be different bro, just trust me

>>17253083
You lack theory but yes.

>>17252954
Harry Potter

>>17253083
yes it will

>>17253129
>>17253115
just out of curiosity, whats your explanation for the fact that virtually every single actual commie revolution in human history proves you wrong?

>>17253056
The difference between a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and the dictatorship of the proletariat is that I can keep material needs to make myself happier and have the ability to join the bourgeoisie while the dictatorship of the proletariat forces everyone to be satisfied with having jackshit in the name of 'fairness' and 'equality'.

>>17253151
huh? which ones? The one where the Cubans kicked out the imperialists and built a functional society? The one where the soviets built a world superpower? The one where the Chinese kicked out the imperialists, improved the material conditions of their citizen's lives, and are becoming a world super power? Which one??

>>17252840
Dont make a thread about a book youve never read

>>17253161
yup. Keep thinking you're going to be a big shot. Any day now bro.

>>17253162
I will drink to that, comrade.

>>17253151
They have none
>>17253162
Those are literal bugman societies where human life doesn't matter and freedoms don't exist.
Please go fuck off to China and stop shitting up the West with your retarded politics, lol.

>>17253151
China, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, DPRK, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Angola. These are the socialist and socialist oriented nations of the world. They have proven their viability despite constant imperialist aggression and have demonstrated their total superiority during the Covid-19 pandemic. Soviet-style socialism failing is no more proof that socialism is impossible than the failure of the French revolution was proof that capitalism was impossible.

>>17253162
uuuuuh yes, literally all of those ones that you mentioned which turned into a dictatorship ruled by upper-class dictators and in no way achieved a classless stateless society are perfect examples of what i was saying

>>17253194
not a single of those nations are classless societies where the workers own the means of production....

>>17253171
I don't have to be a millionaire , even though its open to anyone in Capitalism whereas in a Socialist society, nobody is even allowed to be middle class. And by the time that Socialist Society reaches Communism, who knows what will happen.

Fuck Communism, its less about making things 'equal' than about robbing competent and hardworking people of their wealth.

The only working class people who unironically stan Communism are those who were shit at their working class job anyway. Why do you think Western Leftist movements target students and other 'oppressed minorities'? Its because they're so hungry for numbers, they'd let anyone in.

Your ideology can't even get people it was centered around on.

Leftism does not work.

>>17253199
t. has literally no understanding of marxist theory

Yes, of course these nations have dictatorial ruling classes, the proletariat is supposed to be a dictatorial ruling class in the transition from capitalism to socialism. It is impossible for these nations to be classless, and thus stateless, in a world where imperialism and capitalism exist.

>>17253161
>I have the ability to join the bourgeoisie

When will americans learn?

>>17253207
>classless societies where the workers own the means of production
They do not pretend to be classless. Also workers cant own the means of production in a classless society, workers wouldn’t exist. Retard, read literally any amount of marxist theory before arguing about it. You do not know what you are talking about.

>>17253216
Marx was a writer and journalist. You would think /lit/ would understand that those are valid and serious jobs.

>>17253225
the proletariat is not the dictatorial ruling class in any of those nations, the ruling class are still the ultra wealthy who control capital...

>>17253162
>Cuban
Famine, shithole, population now denounces communism
>USSR
Famine, shithole, population is now split among like 20 different states that all denounce communism
>China
Famine, shithole until about 20 years after rejoining the world market, literally ethic clensing as we speak
I'd go through literally every other one, but they always end up the same.


Fuck. The only thing dumber than a reactionary is a communist that actually believes their own propaganda.

>>17253235
>Also workers cant own the means of production in a classless society, workers wouldn’t exist
you've got to be pulling my leg

>>17253246
Well, I mean. "Journalist" nowadays is kind of a big gag. Not in his day, but I mean it's kind of hard to remember a time when journalism had integrity and I'm old as shit.

kek

>>17253187
>>Those are literal bugman societies where human life doesn't matter and freedoms don't exist.
kek. You are living in the past. America has no culture anymore. You have marvel movies, q-anon boomer conspiracy theorists that riot in your capitol building, season 31 of the simpsons, infinite doordash/ubereats/amazon warehouse, and a 350k covid deaths.
>>17253199
no one has ever achieved a classless stateless society. This is the capitalist moron's trick. They say that their society has no failure condition. It too is not stateless, classless, and is dictated by an elite. But for them, it doesn't count, because hey that's supposed to be how it works! Capitalism works because you're supposed to be getting fucked! But when a socialist nation is trying to build its way out of these things, and doesn't just achieve them instantly, ding ding, failure! Have you ever considered that having a state and rulers is necessary for organization while socially necessary labour time is still high? Have you ever considered that the constant outside threat of capitalist states necessitates a socialist state? What would have happened to the Chinese, Soviets, Cubans, Vietnamese etc if they weren't militarized states? They would have been crushed! The americans endlessly wage war on them! That these socialist countries can achieve the feats they have while under constant threat only improves my evaluation of their ideas.
>>17253210
lol. Do you have a job? You are literally being stolen from every day. There are people who own the private company you work for who do not work , while their wealth increases, because their business keeps the value that you add to it.

>>17253247
All the key industry in China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, and DPRK are owned by the democratic worker’s state. In Cuba and DPRK specifically the private sector is very small.
>>17253255
No. Workers are a class of people with a specific relation to the productive forces. In a communist society, that is to say a post-scarcity society, there would be no workers as such and no working class.

>>17253268
yes i have considered all of those things, they are in fact a portion of the basis of my argument on this matter

>>17253268
Yes I do have a job as a Mechanic and no, managers aren't slackers, managing a company is fucking hard and when shit goes wrong, they're the first ones that get the axe, that's why they get paid as high as they do.

The fact you're clueless about how managers operate tells me you're either jobless or are so shit at your job that you haven't advanced up the corporate ladder.

>>17253079
No I was serious. Go fuck yourself both you and the other pseud

>>17253253
>Famine, shithole, population is now split among like 20 different states that all denounce communism
Not a commie but plenty of people in the former USSR (especially the ones with abysmal economies like Moldova, Ukraine etc) miss the Soviets

>>17253301
oh my god dude, managers do not own the companies they work for..

>>17252943
Dictators like Stalin were Marxists in the same way Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy.

>>17253323
>it wasn't real leftism
Every

single

time

>>17253301
t. manager lying to himself

That said, the small economically-precarious petit-bourgeois is not necessarily an enemy of the working class. The enemy is the big capitalist who owns the big necessaries of modern living, ie the bankers, healthcare moguls, oil tycoons, etc.. Small business still exists in socialist countries today and even in a theoretical society without small business a managerial position would obviously exist, the only difference being that the manager would be democratically elected.

>>17253323
Fuck you liberal.
>>17253327
In a thread of people defending ussr, china, etc. you pretend this one trotskyist represents every leftist?

>>17253308
>Moldova misses the Soviets
Shut the fuck up retard, don't speak about things you don't understand retarded lefty

>>17252943
>I'm 75 IQ and proud

>>17253284
>owned by the democratic worker’s state
so the ruling class of china living in mansions and penthouses while their people are worked to death in sweatshops (capital) controlled by said ruling class is different because.. why exactly?

>>17253329
>Workplace Democracy

Fucking lmao, you're asking for a famine or shortage of goods if you're gonna slow down production to a halt because you think workplace hierarchy isn't justified.

>>17252840
holy based

>>17253342
LOL

>>17253356
Contradictions such as this will naturally exist in a nation which attempts to use the private market and capitalist economic incentives to develop its productive forces. The chinese communist party acknowledges the issues with this and understands why it exists.
>>17253357
the workplace democracy enshrined in the soviet constitution didn’t stop them from shitting on the nazis

>>17253367
You don't know anything about Moldova if you use these sources. You're a retard.

>>17253396
cope

>>17253384
well its good that they acknowledge it I guess but that doesn't actually change the reality of the situation

>>17253415
China lifted 800 million people out of absolute poverty since 2012. If that isn’t changing the wealth distribution then I don’t know what is

>>17253253
Cuba was an american brothel before their revolution. Literally every country in the carribbean and in central america (that are firmly capitalist territories) are nigger tier. Once again,liberal trick is to say "none of these capitalist failures to make a society count. None of the historical, geographical, or political contingencies count. None of the historical process of the nation mean anything. The fact that the capitalist world sets up a trade blockade doesn't count. It wasn't an uber successful consumer society! shithole!"

I would certainly rather have been a Cuban than one of the nations in central or south america subjected to CIA funded death squads in the 20th century.

Same is true for the USSR. Same with China, except, because it didn't fail, it's all of a sudden not-real-socialism. Nevermind that there is no actual ethnic cleansing, and m nevermind that real history of capitalist nation is killion a million Iraqis after invading on false pretenses, or genociding entire continents.

It's the same trick, every single time from you god damned liberal. Whenever a capitalist society fails, or does something heinous, it simply doesn't count. But when a socialist/communist society does, that's a big black mark.

>>17253414
Pathetic leftist who learns about communism from propaganda online sources without even knowing it. You're disgusting.

>>17253444
yup. Every source that says anything good about communism is just propaganda bullshit. No matter how much research is done, it won't count, because you have access to the true and correct reality. I'm sure you are a native and middle aged Moldovan!

>>17253452
Da, sunt si stiu mai bine ca tine pisat burghez

>>17253444
shut up retard. your gay country is part of romania anyway

>>17253452
>>17253481
Kek

>>17253438
yes, the ruling class who own the means of production lifted people out of poverty by engaging in capitalism to build up domestic industry

im still not quite understanding how this is different from the so called bourgeois dictatorship

>>17253488
It should be, but it's not because of Stalin and now because of Putin

>>17253481
well I've been owned. I'm not a bourgeoisie though. I don't own any property and will work my whole life while the wealth in my country will continually go be stratified to the top.

>>17253507
shut up fuck you

>>17253187

>literal bugman societies where human life doesn't matter and freedoms don't exist

Unlike the good ol US of A where you have to mortgage your house to pay for chemo

>>17253323
That is wrong. Stalin was a devout Marxist. Stalin and DPRK are also based.

>>17252840
>t. bunkerchanoid basement dweller

>>17253442
I'm snapping right now in approval

>>17252840
>Capitalism is good because.... It just is OKAY??

>>17253162
Lol cuba is a shithole and they still use technology from 1950 and taxi drivers make more than doctors. Communism always leads to failure but of course I dont expect a 60 IQ commie to understand that.

>>17253207

And there is not a single nation with an unfettered free market economy and nonexistent state, therefore capitalism is equally impossible and retarded

>>17253301

>managers aren't slackers, they actually work really hard

Manager here, you're as wrong as a person can be.

>>17253637
capitalism is good because its a real tangible way to produce and distribute goods to a large population that can exist in real life and not just on paper

>>17253577
And fyi "Moldovan" doesn't exist; it's a soviet invention. We're Romanians but not allowed to reunify with our own. Transnistria and Gagauzia are Russian plants that work against us and any poll that includes them is fake.

>>17253268
Lol, China literally aspires to the most debased levels of American "culture" that you outlined.
How else could they have spawned TikTok and the many shitty imitations of american products that they have?
The Government realized a long time ago that communism is a fucking retarded system that would lead to stagnation so they decided to adopt "Socialism with Chinese characteristics". Now they can get some of the benefits of capitalism and all of the benefits of a decrepit totalitarian state!
Also, the upper class in china is pretty much all political, unlike here where you can become rich through merit regardless of whatever political views you believe in.
And yeah, oh boy am I jealous of the Chinese dude, it's a shame that my nation didn't lie about their COVID-19 death-tolls, and it's a shame my nation didn't decide to send drones to follow me around and tell me what to do, boy is it a shame that my nation didn't completely shut down and turn whole cities into ghost towns.
Fuck me, you are retarded.

>>17253647
what a strange post, are you false flagging?
capitalism is not solely defined by having a completely and utterly unregulated market economy
communism is specifically defined by worker ownership of the means of production and distribution

what do communists and communism both have in common? they dont work!

>>17253677

Is that why 50 million Americans are food insecure? Because capitalism distributes resources effectively?

>>17253727
nah its probably because theyre lazy, retarded, or addicts. get a job . dont think youre too good for a minimum wage job. just get any job and do what you can to put food on the table. if youre worth more youll earn more, so try to get more skills. if youre struggling, work harder or look for a job.

>>17253713

Honestly anon, I have no reason to be in this thread at all but the Shitposter's Code compells me to derail threads.

>tfw no marxist leninist gf

>>17253727
nice attempt to move the goal post I guess. yes, "not perfect" is better than nothing, people being "food insecure" is better than people being pushed into cannibalism by a revolution that inevitably just comes full circle back to capitalism

>>17253736

>40 million unemployed
>economy in the shitter for anyone with less than two commas in their bank account
>nobody's hiring because small businesses keep shutting down due to COVID

>just try harder

Room temperature IQ in this thread

>>17253753
aye, carry on then

>>17253756
Who tf is that shes cute

>>17253727
always posting absolute numbers instead of percentages that can be directly compared against socialist nations
why are you so predictable

>>17253763

>capitalism distributes resources effectively
>no it doesn't, and here's evidence showing it doesn't
>whatever it's still better than what I imagine communism to be

>average ussr diet was 3000 calories a day
>muh no food meme

>>17253781

Can you not divide 50 million by 330 million, Anon

Is that beyond your abilities

>>17253793
we don't even have reliable numbers for how bad it was, that's how bad it really was.

>>17253327
Is it really so hard to believe that countries call themselves socialist, democratic, communist, etc. so as to be cast in a more favorable light? Consider the possibility that the mocking "it's not real leftism" phrase you and so many others mindlessly repeat is in a literal sense true - it's not real leftism. It's like how America calls itself a democracy when it's nothing like a democracy. But to assure its citizens it's a democracy is a nice way to pacify them.

>>17253805

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5.pdf

even biased cia admits

" American and Soviet citizens eat about the same amount of food each but the Soviet diet may be more nutritious.

The CIA drew no conclusions about the nutritional makeup of the Soviet and American diets but commonly accepted U.S. health views suggest the Soviet diet may be slightly better.

According to Central Intelligence Agency, an average Soviet citizen consumes 3 280 calories a day, compared to 3 520 calories for the American*"*

>>17253789
my post was that its a real tangible way to produce and distribute goods to a large population that can exist in real life and not just on paper

you literally did not refute this or provide an alternative, the fact that some people fall though the cracks it isn't a literal flawless system does not refute my statement

the 20th century attempts at socialism were not perfect but they did accomplish some impressive things like going to space and industrializing backwater countries. socialism is a noble idea to strive for and we should strive to make the economy work for the people and not just profit. create more equal opportunities and a just society.

>>17253821

1 in 7 Americans not knowing where their next meal is coming from is not exactly a great selling point for capitalism, which must include an impoverished working class by design

>>17253817
>American and Soviet citizens eat about the same amount of food
whew its almost like the soviet union was just another form of capitalist dictatorship

>>17253817
that's either after the great famine and the bigger waves of people being put into labor camps and starving/freezing to death there, or the cia did a shoddy job on its research.

>>17253837
> not exactly a great selling point for capitalism
relative to what real life non-theoretical standard?

>>17252943
>I've not read it but it's still wrong
it's retarded but so are you desu

>>17253727
>capitalism means everyone gets everything they need without effort
Kill yourself please.

we got too cocky standard of living bros...

>>17253835
Capitalism is the most equal, caring and just system there is.

>>17253849
yes it was during brezhnev era. there were no famines post wwii

>>17253857

Wow anon that's so true I guess millions of starving families is just the price we have to pay for our freedoms

>>17253874
Delusional. Capitalism rewards the predatory, greedy, and exploitative.

>>17253880
You're retarded.

why do they keep trying to astroturf when they just end up discrediting themselves every time?

>>17253890
Pride

>>17253874
lmao

>>17253817
>t. guy who watched some retarded commie on YouTube talk about this and who decided to save his links to OWN rightoids!

>>17253879
thats not what I said at all anon, im not saying its perfect, im asking you to actually produce a real life example that is superior as a standard by which you judging capitalism as being inferior

Really makes you think huh?

>>17253874
capitalism doesnt give a shit about humanity besides its economic value. they'd kill the planet if they could make money off of it and have.

>>17253904
How does it feel to be retarded?

>>17253911
>ancap
you tell me

>>17253912
>leftist
You must've been lobotomized at birth

>>17253911
All ancaps are virgins. The most autistic possible ideology.

>>17253912
his point is that you're a retard for making an argument against ancapistan, when in reality what we mean by 'capitalism' is a system where there's a government, democratically elected, that counter-balances and regulates the market.

>>17253900

And my point is that settling for capitalism because "it's the best real-world example we have because it's the only one we have" is lazy thought-terminating nonsense. Be aspirational, not complacent, Anon. Still waters breed reptiles of the mind.

>>17253922
so youre a social democrat? because what youre saying does not happen in the us where neoliberalism, deregulation, tax cuts for the wealthy, laissez faire capitalism is the status quo

>>17253920
I wish I was a virgin, they were better times.

>>17253931
we're all open-minded here :^)
it's just that that isn't the same as buying into baseless, too-good-to-be-true promises of utopia

>>17253931
So you think capitalism is the worst thing ever and want to replace it

Compared to what?

At what cost?

What hard evidence do you have?

>>17252840
Let me guess. Are bunkertrannies rading us again?
https://i.warosu.org/lit/thread/S16479179#

>>17253937
even the US has daddy government. you have environmental programs, regulations on what can be produced, sold and bought, your laborers have all kinds of protections that they would not have in a pure capitalist country.

>>17253931
i mean, im certainly open to exploring new ideas and not in any way religiously dedicated to capitalism, but what else is there? your precious communist revolution has already been proven a hundred times over to be inherently self defeating in nature

>>17253161
>imagine critiquing marxism without understanding historical materialism
oy vey, another jewish trick

>>17253922
>describes liberalism
centrists get the rope first

>>17253974
they're just providing a public service by participating in a didactic exercise to turn newfags into anti-communists.

>>17254004
not working on me. communism will win

why should i support the garbage current system just because the ussr wasnt perfect?

>>17254002
while you won't get the rope while there's still the crumbling remains of a center left. funny how that works, eh?

>>17253974
fyi, bunkerchan has split and and withered away
The new site is https://leftypol.org/leftypol/index.html

why can't commies see the truth intention of communism was to destroy Russia? can't they see the so called dictatorship of the bourgeoisie allied with the soviet union to stop Germany? there's no reason for communism to exist anymore besides fooling people into vooting for social democrats or not taking any political action because teh revolution will come soon guys! Seriously, what the why can't they see the clear jewish influence in marxism and the soviet union, while the soviets were killing the kulaks all the jewish landlords remained unspoiled. Is it white guilt? I don't know.

>>17254017
because things can become much, much worse. if you want to make a change you have to know what the fuck you're doing or you just end up with the killing fields 2.0

>>17254021
youre a retard who is just repeating debunked anti semitic garbage. marx was dead long before the russian revolution happened.

>>17254021
>communists
There's a lot of factions of leftism. There's hardcore tankies who worship lenin and stalin
There's the maofags
Juche
Pol pot
Hoxaism
**posadism**

To all the /pol/tards ITT:

Read Capital first and then you may critique it. Until then, fuck off back to your containment board

BTW, Biden won.

>>17254018
>while you won't get the rope while there's still the crumbling remains of a center left.
>center left.
Do you mean berniebros, or are you a pants on head retarded BidenxCCP nigger?

>>17254017
not him but if you actually want a reason, id say mainly because the flaws of the USSR and China etc. are rooted in the inherently self defeating nature of the communist revolution, and if you have a shred of empathy and love for your fellow man, you wont destroy the lives of everyone around you just to live out your fantasy that will inevitably come full circle into a pseudo-capitalist dictatorship anyway?

>>17254021
Of course they stopped Germany. Germany tried to invade Eastern Europe and genocide people for the purposes of German imperialism.

>muh j00z
Nonsensical drivel

Communism is an ideal to strive for. I am a democratic socialist, not a communist, but I can understand the desire to achieve communism after building socialism first. I prefer a more gradualist reform approach.

>>17254057
You a JEW
>>17254053
Dont bother with him, hes a JEW with the crafty mindset of a subversive lizard ratfuck wanting to poison us. Communism is JEwish OP to eradicate national homogeneity and institute Jewish global rule over the goyim! WAKE UP YOU FUCKING GOYIM

>>17254053
>and if you have a shred of empathy

>>17254050
are you retarded? I'm not talking about particular corrupt establishment heads, I'm talking about the disintegrating legal-spiritual fabric, the dying traditions, the conventions that keep the opportunistic career politicians from going completely off the rails, or the utterly mad fringe idiots from finding the opening they need to put themselves into power.

>>17253442
Did I claim to be a liberal? Did I claim that the current western model wasn't in dire need of change? I pointed out that defending former totalitarian states to parrot your outdated ideology is ignorant.

The last bit was mostly just a troll. Shilling a mythical communist narrative is as reactionary as the current right though. Even if you promote revolution, you're still trying to return to a nonexistent better past.

I oppose authoritative States, be they Right or Left. Getting shot or starved by right wing groups in one country isn't any better or worse than being shot or starved by left wing groups. In either case the common denominator is the State.

It's the US State that commited terrible injustices in the name of their "greater good" not the practice of investing personal capital. It's the Soviet State that starved it's people in 1947 (before your graph choses to display I noticed), again for their greater good. It's the Cuban State that refused to allow it's citizens to flee while they starved them over their pride and their greater good. Totalitarian greater goods always seem to get a lot of people killed. I will return to China.

I won't pretend that capitalism automatically leads to a perfect society, it doesn't. I won't try to argue that massive wealth inequalities are rampant in the neoliberal order, it is. These points do not, however, mean that a system that forces individual rights out the door for the greater good will suddenly function if it tries to emulate the failed States in its history.

Until you can solve scarcity, or homogenize all culture, Communism continues to remain untenable without the State. Until it can be demonstratably shown that Communist parties can lead their States without silencing dissenters, often through violence, it will remain as corrupt as the worst of the systems it aims to supplant.

Almost there, it may seem that my focus on the State here has been absolute. That is only because, like my previous post, I wa attempting to focus more directly on your statements. In truth, my biggest opposition is to the Organization, often distilled into three components; The "big C's" as I like to call them Country, Company, and Church are the true enemies of individualism and liberty. They are the three sides of the triangle of Totalitarianism, and each infringes upon individual rights in it's own special way. Communism when taken near enough to it's logical conclusion, just blends the three.

Lastly, China. The big Red elephant in the room. I haven't forgotten about you. And how could I? I spent three months there backpacking along the great wall. I toured museams of great history and saw incredible architecture. My grandmother was born there, and it's a beautiful country, with incredible people, who have always been very kind to me, despite me being very obviously a foriegner. But I fucking hate the chinese government. They are murdering people. They are silencing their opposition. I have seen it.

>>17254053
socialism is superior to capitalism though. go ask the homeless on skid row or the man working 3 jobs to support his kids how great capitalism is. go ask the child laborer in sri lanka making nike crap for pennies. is it working for her?

>>17252943
Based as fuck

>>17253837
The poor in America are OBESE not starving. Not knowing if you're gonna get a second free big mac from panhandling today, is nat the same as famine.

Anyone /evola/ pilled?

>>17253210
>Fuck Communism, its less about making things 'equal' than about robbing competent and hardworking people of their wealth.
You seem to have a flawed understanding of socialist theory. In order for people to be hardworking and competent, they would have to achieve a perfect median between wealth and poverty. Consequently, They are the ones least likely to have their wealth redistributed because there is nothing wrong with them. In socialist society, it is the excessively wealthy, where ever they are in the heirarchy, who have their wealth taken away from, so that it may be given to the impoverished. For impoverty and excess wealth are both detriments to human productivity, and therefore to human happiness, and wealth distribution alleviates both poverty and excess wealth. The equal society can only exist if every individual becomes hardworking and competent, wealth redistribution is a means of acheiving that goal.

>>17253581
The marxist reveals his true retarded form

>>17254123
>The equal society can only exist if every individual becomes hardworking and competent, wealth redistribution is a means of acheiving that goal.
How is giving people money going to make everyone hardworking and competent?

>>17253162
China the "communist" country that uses child labour to make iPhones. retard.

>>17254130
it can open up opportunities for them to improve their skills instead of living on the brink of survival working dead end jobs. kinda hard to go to college when it costs thousands and youre having to pay bills.

>>17254138
I bet you dollars to donuts that there are zero dengists on 4chan aside from illiterate shills

>>17254088
what is this half-hearted anecdotal garbage? you can find plenty of heart-rending stories about people fleeing from commie dictatorships to the promised land of capitalism, but instead of trading sob stories we could just look at the standards of living, the life expectancy, the level of personal determination and so on.

>>17254143
Yes but some people will just not care to work, and others are incapable of being competent

>>17254151
>standards of living
If wealth was redistributed in america, only 1% would see a loss in wealth (or some shut like that

>>17254143
Ok and countries with free college still have poor people, lazy, and incompetents

>>17254130
Competency is comprised of access to a means of production, and a knowledge of the operation of said means. A work ethic is a part of good moral character, which itself is based on knowledge. It should not be hard to see how money can acquire these things.

>>17254166
>>17254152
Then they get their UBI and nothing else

>Reminder that /pol/ fags actually believe this.

>>17254123
>For impoverty and excess wealth are both detriments to human productivity, and therefore to human happiness

If you haven't noticed, human productivity has never been at a higher state, despite wage stagnation and the largest population in history. This sounds like more faulty GDP worship, i.e. look at the world through such a lens. Human happiness isn't even intrinsically-tied to any of those categories -- they mind hinder/help some of it, but humans can find happiness even in poverty and they can find unhappiness even in wealth.

>The equal society can only exist if every individual becomes hardworking and competent, wealth redistribution is a means of acheiving that goal.

You are striving for a mediocre society: an average society. One could even say a Democratic society. I'm not sure if there is any nobility in leveling everyone. Nevermind your nebulous foundation of "equality" being purely economic.

>>17254088
just to clarify since you never know for sure these days, do you mean socialism in the proletariat revolution sense or the "socialism is when the government does stuff" sense

if you mean the former then i would then ask you to produce a real tangible example of an actual socialist state as a standard by which you can judge capitalism to be inferior

if you mean the latter, then I am fully on board with extensive government programs to uplift people who fall between the cracks and collective bargaining for workers etc

>>17254163
I don't think you understand how wealth works. the rich don't just sit on their money. you directly benefit from them using it to make smart investments, and they can't do that when you re-distribute everything according to your demented notion of "fairness". if you just want to argue for income tax and other less invasive redistributive measures - within reason - that's fine obviously.

>>17254168
You don't think work ethic and various forms of intelligence are partly innate traits? Or even that providing people with free resources might actually make them less inclined to work(in addition to the opposite effect which I agree also exists)?

>>17254168
>free will and moral corruption doesn't exist, just change the material conditions and all the rapists, thieves and undesirables will become model citizens
why are materialists like this? don't you realize that I can easily choose to be evil no matter how perfect your regime might be? I don't need a good reason - I can do it just to spite you, because I resent your denying my ability to choose.

>>17252943
Based, leftoids seething

>>17254203
>le strawman
contrary to /pol/pular belief, many marxists don't believe in the death penalty, or abortion, and support gun rights

>>17254215
ah yes, I think I remember the russian revolution starting out this way as well. every comrade had the right, and was encouraged, to bear arms... until the regime was firmly in place that is.

>>17253442
I hit the fucking character limit.>>17254085

I lastly want to point out the irony in a communist saying capitalists falures are denied by capitalists. When that is literally the ONLY way to shill yourself into believing in Communism today. Not to mention that by it's very nature Capitalism (should) punish failures by LETTING them fail, so that innovation can create success in the gap. Capitalism continues to flourish and increase wealth worldwide (yes, even for the very poor) in spite of the constant regulatory restrictions on the market not because.

China is a MARKET economy, seriously go there. Everyone is trying to sell you something. It's the totalitarian dictators I dislike.


There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, wrong with investment of capital with the intent of profitable return. It's monopolists and well meaning but naive polititions who manipulate the market that fuck things up for everybody. Haveing sensible laws to restrict monopolistic trusts and tax evasion is literally all you need to do to keep capitalism functional indefinitely.

And your graph took a minute to source. You should share that. It's from a soviet apologist article extrapolating from FAO data. That's why it starts after the famine and ends when the transission finished, because it's cherry picked.

>>17252840
Yes. We might not ber able to demand more from human existence.

>>17254183
You are the one looking through a faulty lens. Those people who find happiness in poverty do not live in povery at all, and those who find happiness in wealth are not wealthy at all. From this point on, poverty should be described not as having very little, but as not having enough. Likewise, excess wealth is the condition of having too much.

And as for the latter paragraph, Communism should not strive to level everyone to the Earth, but to raise their platforms to the Heavens.

>>17254203
Then you will be killed , and it would be considered it a mercy killing. Simple as.

>>17254215
I do

>>17252943
I'm retarded and proud!

>>17254143
Only retards oppose tuition free college. That why almost everyone but US has it.

>>17254215
Name one anti-abortion commie bonus points if contemporary

>>17254269
the way college tuitions are handled has little to do with socialism vs capitalism anyway, it's more of a problem of the changes in the technological landscape and the job market. you have to re-define what constitutes 'basic education' at that point.

>>17254281

Dont a bunch of free college western countries have pretty high youth unemployment?

>>17252840
DUVAYUE TEE EFF?!

>>17254302
kim jong un does not advocate for worker control of the means of production

>>17252840
>>17252943
I KNEEL!!!!

>>17254192
Firstly, even if they were innate traits, there will come a time in the future when genetic modification will allow for even those traits to be manipulated, until that point, we would work with what we have. Secondly, there will be no such thing as a free meal.

>>17254315
At that points whats the point of working at all

>>17254169
I mastered living on $2500 a year, fucking total, in my twenties. I did it so I could work as little as possible and incest what I could and quit my job at the earliest possible time. Hoping to cut my expenses to $2000 this year.

Communism is dumb. If they give me a UBI I will just stop working and reinvest the money into a market economy, where I will then move once I have enough invested for them to take me. As long as I can get it done before commie clown country implodes or I get sent to gulag I win.

>>17254320
We would need someone to turn off and on the robots that automate everything else.
Jetsons style

>>17254192
I will 100% stop working if papa joe passes enough stimmys. If you can't beat em join em

>>17254315
>Firstly, even if they were innate traits, there will come a time in the future when genetic modification will allow for even those traits to be manipulated,
I can't even begin to imagine how royally we will fuck ourselves over once we have that kind of power.

>>17252943
based 90 iq retard

>>17254320
A question for them, not for us. In all seriousness, if there was no further goal to work towards, and the end of Mankind's life was reached, then it is merely a transmission into Mankind's afterlife.

>>17254294
That just sounds like free tuition with extra words.

>>17252943
Based

>>17254309
Yeah but their minimum wage jobes are like 3€ an hour. I wouldn't even bother.

>>17254376
close, it's "depends on what's economically the most reasonable" in more words

>>17254372
totally not a religion though lol, goddamn anon just convert to Islam or something, it's more cheerful

>>17254327
l0l >incest

>>17252840
Capitalism is the only system that works

>>17254397
tranny

>>17254397
Oh shit trannyfly is based now

>>17254397
T R A N N Y
R
A
N
N
Y

Also my sister said you are ugly af

>>17254415
I had sex with your sister

imagine not filtering buttfly

>>17254281
Elon Musk

>>17254281
Ever heard of natalism?

>>17254419
ugly tranny lol

>>17254419
tranny incel

>>17254390
Each man worships a god, and it is that worship which shapes man, for better or worse. Naturally, when ideas grow to this scale and magnitude, one must adapt a religiosity about it. I understood that much when reading the Catechisms of a Revolutionary, and even more so when I've reached Dostoevsky's works.

>>17252943
based, cultural marxists seething over the fact this post is irrefutable

>>17254510
>relable liberal capitalism and it's PC culture to cultural marxism
w e w l a d
e
w
l
a
d

>>17254397
based tripfag might be an oxymoron but still, pretty based

>>17254203
Also, because I realise you might actually believe you've made a good point, those things you've mentioned, free will and choice, do not exist, not in your sense. They are totally illusory, for the individual is always compelled towards what he perceives as his best interests; he will not choose anything besides, and he will not will anything besides.

>>17252943
Retard amerishart

>>17253507
This is again generally acknowledged even by Marx, a capitalist state must already be in place to superseded by a Socialist mode of production.
I'm certain a lot of the accelerationists out there will push this idea also.

>>17254681
>just trust me bro, we have to create a centralized totalitarian dictatorship first THEN things will definitely transition into an egalitarian society with worker ownership of the means of production
it seems a whole lot like marxism was either A) completely retarded to a laughably extreme degree or B) just a tool of regime change and it was always intended that "real communism" was never going to happen

>>17254725
Pretty much all political ideologies are like that. Reality is just terrible and anyone that points it out accurately gets called a cynic or pessimist and nobody wants to hear it.

>>17254725
Why yes, in order for the ideal society to be actualised, there must be an authority which guides and marches towards that ideal. How else would it be acheived?

>>17254760
If the theory disagrees with the reality, throw out the reality.

>>17254905
>throw out the reality
how quintessentially Marxist

>>17255007
Necessarily; what you call reality is merely a veil of reality transposed over reality.

>>17255007
>how quintessentially metaphysical and guenon pilled
FTFY

>>17254085
>individualism and liberty
Yes, Let's opt out of an all-encompassing, omniscient, government so that everyone may be led on by their own blind desires. Individuality is merely another form of despoticism, tyrannical beyond comparison. Taken to it's greatest extent, individualism results in a war of all against all. The pacifism you seem so enamoured by is in direct conflict with individualism. That is the reason why Plato considered Democracy the second worst form of government.

>>17252943
zoomers and chapotrannies seething

Marxism is when you take other peoples money. The more other peoples money you take, the more marxist it is.

>>17252943
This is something that one of my direct subordinates, one of the guys who worked for me, a guy who became one of my best friends pointed out.

He would pull me aside with some major problem or issue that was going on, and he'd say, "Boss, we've got this thing, this situation, and it's going terribly wrong."

I would look at him and say, "based."

And finally, one day, he was telling me about something that was going off the rails, and as soon as he finished explaining it to me, he said, "I already know what you're going to say."

And I asked, "What am I going to say?"

And he said, "You're going to say: 'based.' "

He continued, "That's what you always say. When Something is wrong or going bad, you just look at me and say, 'based.' "

And I said, "Well. I mean it. Because that is how I operate."

>>17252840
>Literally a Neet that hated working so much he wrote a book about it

Kek

>>17255355
- Margaret Thatcher

marxism is a weird cult

>>17252943
God, i don't know why it so easy to spot americans, but thank you

https://youtu.be/dqB-EMqpsUA

>>17252954
Mein Kampf, Siege and manuals

That is how you create REAL CHANGE. Not through cringe reading commie trash

>>17253162
Do the people of Cuba own the means of production? Do the people of China own the means of production? Is the foundation of the Cuban government not built upon countless corpses of dissenting citizens of Cuba? Is the foundation of the Chinese government not built upon countless corpses of dissenting citizens of China? Think before you post.

>>17252943

>>17256515
ok which one of you is this

>>17254114
lol what a fag

>>17252943
Incredibly based

>>17252943
based retard

How many more threads of "OP summarizing someone's ideas as if they were explained by a nigger and thinking that's a legitimate rebuttal" do we have to endure

I hate communists just as much as Stirner and Nietzsche did. Just throw them off helicopters

>>17255355
Communism is the religion of the resentful; the weak who fail to have the courage not be prey for others

>>17252943
didn't read das capital either, but BASED AND REDPILLED
Marx was a devil

>>17256789
What does it matter what the OP says? It's basically a Das Kapital thread. Leddit newfag.

>>17256805
Little does /lit/ know, Nietzsche did care much for the master morality either, calling it merely the 'unsubliminated' will to power. There is nothing special about your average barbarian, tyrant, criminal, landowner or any other human equivalent of a predator. His goal was to discover and spread a morality far superior to both master and slave morality. Of course, the horse caught up with him first.

>>17257107
*did NOT

>>17252943
>all the Continental scum seething in the replies
Based and Puritan-pilled OP

>>17257213
>equating continental to marxism
Schmitt and Heidegger were also continental, faggot.

>>17257107
> There is nothing special about your average barbarian, tyrant, criminal, landowner or any other human equivalent of a predator.
DING, DING, DING - you're close, but I'd say there's nothing special about human life. Marxism, communism the religion of pitiful, resentful lower classes; as if one must care about them instead of overcome them for their own interests

>>17253246
not really a job but still marx was right

>>17252943
Implying civilization isn't corrupted by now.

I cannot believe such a stupid terrible bait thread has more than 250 replies. What is wrong with you?

>>17255319
And you're mythical benign State won't beran by individuals? I'm sorry I missed the news article where we successfully developed a positronic brain to emulate the world leader from The Evitable Conflict.

Individualism is the rule of law in a world populated by individuals. Even in your make believe utopia people would still need to look out for themselves first, it would just become nigh impossible to do so as the State gradually (or not so gradually) encompasses more and more of society.

Get this through your head; It is nobody's job to handhold you to safety or success. There are already countless programs in place to assist the destitute, it is their own duty to use them for their own betterment. I personally support the reformation of those programs to make them more accessible and effective. But the elimination of the market economy is fantasy. It just becomes organized crime and black market under strong socialism, and eventually when the State inevitably fails organized crime becomes the new State.

>>17255319
>All-encompassing and omniscient government

Socialists actually believe this tosh. Can't make it up kids. This is your brain on socialism.

>>17257845
nah, this is tankie not marxism

>>17257781
Any Marx thread draws in all the trannie and all the chuds.

Gotta love when liberals compare the US to the USSR when the former had an almost two-century head start industrializing and still had to resort to building up its economy on the indigenous genocide and centuries of enslavement of Africans. Some actually fair comparisons would be:
>1970s Russia vs. 1970s India
>Modern Cuba vs. Modern Nicaragua
>China vs. Mexico
etc.
None of which are even a competition.

>>17252840
I won't even bother criticising the book the man was a hypocrite who didn't pay his debts and abused the workers around him. Self aggrandising cunt. You gotta pay to visit his grave. May all his followers seeth harder

>>17257969
fuck niggers and fuck you cunt

>>17252943
too based sir

>>17257942
>chuds

>>17253811

>>17252943
based retard

>>17257969
So you mean to tell me, that Russia, which was considered peak culture prior to WW1, and had whole of Europe quaking in fear that they would invade for century's (they never did) went to shit after October 1917 did it? And that comparing it to India which had been under British exploitation for a century is a fair comparison?

>>17252943
disgusting amerimutt

>>17257935
This I agree with. But until a libsoc can put down the bong long enough to come up with a platform, tankies are the only Marxists that matter. /toke

>>17257969
Yeah I'm sure the modern cubans fleeing in mass for 60 years agree wholeheartedly. Nice cherrypick of Nicaragua by the way, Costa Rica is a better example.

>China vs Mexico
Time for you to go to sleep. You're talking nonsense.

>>17258181
read chomsky bro
he has real solutions. direct action, workplace democracy, unions, organizing, co ops, localized autonomy, syndicalism.

>ind of voluntary socialism, that is, as libertarian socialist or anarcho-syndicalist or communist anarchist, in the tradition of, say, Bakunin and Kropotkin and others. They had in mind a highly organized form of society, but a society that was organized on the basis of organic units, organic communities. And generally, they meant by that the workplace and the neighborhood, and from those two basic units there could derive through federal arrangements a highly integrated kind of social organization which might be national or even international in scope. And these decisions could be made over a substantial range, but by delegates who are always part of the organic community from which they come, to which they return, and in which, in fact, they live.