/lit/ - Literature

>>17225843
yah sometimes. its a viscous cycle thats somewhat part of the human condition. If I go cold turkey a bit it gets better. Maybe I should move to some amish town.

Fate has determined the books you will find and read in your lifetime, with hopefully some of them being really good, so good that they rekindle your waning interesting in reading or make you think differently about life and shit. Reading is cool, if I'm going to be an escapist NEET I'd prefer to be a well-read one. I'm happy with what I've got and will get in the future, book-wise.

>>17225877
>viscous

>>17225843
I'm so fucking sick of this zoomer boomer consoomer poomer doomer bullshit, holy fucking shit. You people seriously need to leave your house.

I figure if you've read one book you've read them all.

>>17226507
You are right if and only if you are making reference to the Holy Bible

>>17226507
I love this shithole.

>>17225843
I've felt like this, but I doubt I will when in my deathbed (I know it's just a meme).
Somewhat related to this, I recently read from Joseph Campbell his opinion on reading. He explained what you should do is read until you find an author you resonate with, read all he ever wrote, and following, read what they've read.

>>17226507
the problem is reading novels. Read poetry

>>17226507
FUCKING BASED

>>17226507
Based
>>17226528
Cringe

>>17226507
This desu

>>17226709
This if you're a massive fucking faggot

There is a point of saturation in any medium where you've become so familiar that you see through all the tricks that made it seem magical in the beginning. Then there is another saturation point where you've seen through so many "artistic mediums" you realize they're all bunk. Every single one. All at comes down to manipulation of human minds. Pick a medium and genre, go deep into it, and you'll find a few obscured tricks and a lot of hot air and lies. They all pedal meaning, hide it behind walls of self-delusion and bullshit, and sell it to you. Behind it all there is nothing. If you feel a spiritual high from music or literature, you are being lied to, or deluding yourself.

>>17226471
viscous cycles are the worst

>>17227042
Dangerously based post, screencapped. That genuinely hit me hard.

>>17227042
t. pseud zoomer

>>17227042
>>17227066
But if you just applied what the post itself said to the post itself you can see that it's just a shitpost guised as an effortpost.

>>17227086
That creates a paradox though, does it not? The shitpost (if you view it as an artistic expression, which is really pushing it) is an artistc expression with some form of "magic" that says to disregard the magic in artistic expressions.

>>17227054
I'm really going through some turbulent flow in my viscous cycle right now.

Maybe this joke is too STEM for this board?

>>17226500
imagine being this triggered by channel 4 memes

>>17227042
BASED BASED BASED BASED BASED BASED

>>17227042
It's comforting to see I'm not the only autist that came to this realization.
>>17227083
The thing is as a zoomer, you're able to get deeper into a medium than any other person in history thanks to the internet, and realize this as well. This is why zoomers will end up fucked in the head once they grow up, they know literally everything is fake.

>>17227295
>This is why zoomers will end up fucked in the head once they grow up, they know literally everything is fake
You really are a pseud.

>>17227042
Plato basically argued that in the Republic. Then philosophy gave up on truth in the end. What's the real thing?

>>17227083
>t. pseud zoomer
I am generation X and do "creative" things as a career. You don't have to believe what I say but across fields I know I'm not the only one. Talk to a television screenwriter, a graphic designer, a billboard-level rock guitarist. They understand

>>17227042
Just stick with an author bruh

>>17227295
>It's comforting to see I'm not the only autist that came to this realization
It was painful to admit. What did you move on to?

>>17227603
>What's the real thing?
I'm going to ask Diogenes

>>17227652
>Talk to a television screenwriter, a graphic designer, a billboard-level rock guitarist.
well of course what you said applies to the culture industry, but that's not as all-important as it was 20 years ago.

>>17225843
Most books are shit and useless though.

>>17227691
I moved on to literature desu, but I don't really read much fiction. I barely listen to music now

>>17227042
I may be retarded but this sounds pretty nihilistic.

>>17227753
There's a reason philosophy as a whole collapsed into that.

>>17226709
I read so little poetry, sometimes I wonder if it's because I'm a low IQ retard, or because it has lost its significance as art form over the years and therefore become hard to grasp its roots.

>>17227723
Most books, yes obviously. But the great part about living in our age is that we have preserved more brilliant classics than one could ever read in a lifetime. There is no need to ever bother with bad literature.

>>17227779
Read Shelley’s Defense of Poetry essay.

>>17227802
I read bad literature sometimes just so I have something to compare the good stuff to

>>17227042
Am I a brainlet if I don't really believe in whatever this guy's saying? I'm a big music guy so somebody explain it in music terms

>>17227734
I'm trying philosophy now. I first couldn't watch tv, then film, then fiction, then music. Eventually I will probably lose interest in the clever thoughts of philosophers. Really enjoying Cioran right now though

>>17227875
Why are you being so self-conscious?
You think he's wrong? Then try to put your thoughts into words. Don't ask "c-can someone explain to me so I understand?" while tugging your dick between your legs just because he got a few people agreeing with him.

>>17227875
I wrote that. I think the truth is that you will just have to wait until you are older and see if you agree with me at some point. Music is especially used as a symbol for tribal allegiances, social class, intelligence, etc. It's important when your are going because you are looking for a mate, and their tastes in things like music can be extremely revealing. I wouldn't make a career out of it if you want to preserve the illusion. But I think most people who think critically about it, especially those who know the ins and outs of music composition, will eventually see what I'm talking about. St a certain age most old people are listening to music only to remind themselves of youth, and not for the "emotional impact" they original experienced when young

>>17227945
>testing your interrogation techniques intended to get hardened criminals to spill their secrets by breaking their minds with drugs and psychological torture on random college kids
sasuga intelligence agencies. and of course noone ever got into trouble for this, right?

>>17225843
You just have to be wise about the books you read it’s not that hard

>>17227042
If you think every artist is trying to manipulate and trick you into believing what they're doing is meaningful, you must be schizophrenic. Maybe, just maybe, artists make art because they themselves find it meaningful.

>>17227042
What's not bunk?

>>17225843
I think there is a difference between onions consumption of marvel movies, and actively engaging with novels or other artworks you love. although, you could actively engage with marvel and do psychoanalytic reading of the films or something, but no basedboy is doing that.

>>17225843
More along the lines that I will never be able to cultivate the knowledge and experience I truly need to excel at my craft and worth in life
But yeah

>>17227042
>>17228049
Incredibly reductionist. I hope eventually you change your mind, brother, but I know I will not be able to convince you

>>17227945
Okay fuck it you're right, I straight up disagree with all the anons who believe that there is no underlying beauty to art.

Like take Weezer's Pinkerton, you could say on the purely technical side it's extremely well written and dense yet formulaic power pop but Rivers' lyrics make it more than that, he bares his soul for literally no reason apart from wanting to tell the listener how he feels and he sounds absolutely pathetic while doing it but it strikes a chord in people because they know that he's speaking the unfiltered truth.

Art isn't just about formulas, formulas can only take you so far and people will figure you out eventually, there was probably a thousand bands who copied Nirvana's songs bar for bar but they're nobodies now because they missed the extra 1% of ingenuity that turns music into art. There's a fuck ton of royalty free EDM songs but those guys aren't lauded at all because they're making the equivalent of white noise that will only be played during football highlight videos. Formulas are good to know but if you don't have a spark to your art then they mean nothing.

I'm not saying that real art is plentiful but to say that every artist is just relying on formulas to make their art is actually insane. Even if 90% of the people writing books or songs are just trying to be a rock star or NYT bestseller there's that 10% of artists who are genuinely trying to put their thoughts and beliefs out there.

>>17228361
>>17228414
As we can see it comes down to a philosophical argument. Very few people are open to persuasion. But now we know that these arguments exist

>>17228424
Why do you think people make art? Not trying to change your mind just wondering

>>17227042
As retarded as formalists were, defamiliarization is what makes art useful in different times.

>>17228424
My friend, it literally comes down to the opposite. It is entirely based on personal outlook on the world. I'm not making a single philosophical argument. I'm simply saying that you're jaded about artistic expression because you're a boring, joyless, passionless individual (at least in regards to art), and that I hope you change this one day

>>17228049
This is very true. I used to love music so much I wanted to learn to create my own, but the more music theory I learn and son I make the more jaded I become. I can't enjoy a lot of music anymore because I'm too critical or I know all the "secrets" the producers use nowadays. I don't even enjoy my own music anymore. It's so trite.

>>17228573
I assume you also hate women after seeing all the tricks with clarity.

>>17227875
In music terms, you know how once you've listened to loads of post-punk records or shoegaze records you know the standard tricks and they start to become uninteresting? Or how people who listen to a lot of post-rock write off a lot of bands as 'crescendocore' because it uses the slightly over-done 'She Dreamt She Was A Bulldozer' type explosions in lieu of genuinely interesting music? I guess that guy reckons he's found the playbook for every field of artistic endeavour and now everything is just crescendocore to him. I doubt he's right about that, but I think that's his belief.

>>17228641
Nah I think that guy might be just a different breed, probably never listened to music just to listen to music in the same way we do. I'm still interested in why he thinks people make art in the first place, but we may never know.

>>17228697
True, some people don't have it in them to enjoy art. But most of them don't brag about it on internet forums. I would guess he is just too emotionally repressed to allow art to have an effect on him, and the smug superiority is his way of coping with the fact that other people are able to earnestly enjoy things...

>>17227042
Sad but true.

>>17225843
>lessons
fuk u. read for artistic satisfaction and transcendental immersion. not lessons.
>>17227042
music has inherent emotional meaning that comes from harmonic structure and resonance. every other art form has some sort of musicality in it, usually in their overall forms and motifs. this transcends our understanding of meaning as its not semantic. thats where the real beauty of art lies
>>17228049
>emotional impact" they original experienced when young
this is proof that music has value. that original impact. music is such an absurd thing evolutionarily that it wouldnt have come about if it wasnt for some sort of inherent value. music perception relies on our ears calculating ratios of frequencies which unlike the shapes or timbers of frequencies has no obvious functional value in the wild. you are right that most music relies on the same forms (251s, 145s...) but theres even musical value in that, since music relies on repetition and motifs and the whole of music is made out of giant motifs that evolve and differ and get toyed around with while staying the same. its kinda poetic. the same goes for all art.
>>17228414
the ghost it slipped aaaway ;(

Atheists once again proving that they don't need to be culled, but simply destroy their own selves from despair and boredom

>>17227809
thanks, will do

>>17225843
The older i get the more i become interested in having a deeper knowledge of the book i have already read, and this interest has only intensified since i started to develop an interest in writing since i am now reading more to study the technical aspects than the themes. I have become fairly particular about reading books which are new to me and only read the ones which will offer me something more in my understanding of literature and my goals. Reading has become something which supports creation instead of consumption for me.

>>17225843
>Make a list of every book you have ever heard
>Have children or adopt
>Read the amount of books your life has to offer
>In your testimony explicitly say that whatever property would only be given to whoever child completes this list
>Repeat

>>17229141
would you like someone to only read your books to learn how to write? doesnt that hurt their experience, to not be immersed but ultimately focusing on their own gain? doesnt it go against the magic of art to not just experience it but use it as a means to an end like theyre a gear in a machine of an unending cycle of production? isnt it better just to enjoy a book?

>>17229279
I would be flattered by some thinking highly enough of my skills to use it as a guide on how to write. Ultimately i am unconcerned too the motives of anyone who decides to read my work, who am i too decide the worth of what they get out of it? if i wanted to preach i would write opeds or start a cult.

>>17229338
k i was just curious cuz i dont write.

>>17228453
>Why do you think people make art? Not trying to change your mind just wondering
Cioran says they're fighting against the true lack of meaning in life. Ernst Becker says they're trying to immortalize themselves through art. I agree with both but I think it is also a basic sexual signaling method. Music and especially dance are obviously related to mate selection. Do it may actually be evolved behavior to create music, like some animals seem to sing, or at least call out in a colorful way during mating season.

>>17228506
>'m simply saying that you're jaded about artistic expression because you're a boring, joyless, passionless individual (at least in regards to art), and that I hope you change this one day
I'm in reality. What you don't seem to understand is that I was once exactly like you, and thought the same thing. Then I lived another 20 years. You will see, if you see it. I know many my age who are still playing pretend rock star in their minds.

>>17228616
Exactly

>>17228573
Agreed. The best songs are the ones that accidentally and earnestly hit on the formulas. But the formulas are there, and in pop it is down to a science.
When it comes to "experimental" and "avant garde" they're playing a different game, trying to seem more intelligent and deep than pop. It's no better or worse, just another game. It's fine but there is no meaning to it, and with enough experience and brain cells, you'll lose interest. Men typically loose interest in television and videogames first. I think we can say if you haven't gotten sick of the structure of those two mediums, you're a long ways away from seeing through music. I don't care who disagrees. There is a reason most of people die clinging to some pointless accomplishment of theirs, listening to music from when they were 23. Purple have an intense need to pretend that art and live have meaning. Most die still believing it. And the same goes for fiction. It's all manipulation. Read non-fiction or try to enjoy fiction/music/visual arts for what they are... clever nonsense and the illusion of meaning.

>>17229424
>I agree with both but I think it is also a basic sexual signaling method
the mechanisms neccesary for musical perception are much too complex to have evolved for just that. music is definitely used for that context but we enjoy music first, and THEN we use it for social reasons. i dont think its realistic to assume we enjoy music BECAUSE of social reasons. other wise there wouldnt need to be really complex structures that always seem to mysteriously be fundementally similar and create multitudes of different visceral emotional reactions. and there wouldnt be many different uses of music, many of them far from anything social

>>17228641
>I guess that guy reckons he's found the playbook for every field of artistic endeavour and now everything is just crescendocore to him
As I said in the original post, you will eventually see through enough genres within mediums that you will understand that no art has real meaning. Music, film, writing, poetry. All without truth.

>>17228697
>Nah I think that guy might be just a different breed, probably never listened to music just to listen to music in the same way we do.
I've been deeply involved in certain genres since very young and had minor success in making it. Not enough to pay the bills but enough to help. I know what music is and how you are currently listening to it.

>>17228734
Incredible defensive posture you've put on. I don't know what to say to you at this point. I've done things at live shows you wouldn't believe. I've listened to music on psychedelic drugs. I've been high enough to feel it as a geometric force. I've dedicated years of my life obsessing over it, making it, thinking about it, studying it. Music made my younger years bearable. The local scene was like an extended family to me.
Consider for one brief moment that maybe I'm just being honest, and you're just too young to understand.

>>17229466
i think you are looking for a kind of meaning that art isnt really about. ppl want to experience art for beauty and engagement, all else isnt really the point.
>clever nonsense
thats exactly why its good

>>17228820
>his transcends our understanding of meaning as its not semantic
Your post is the only decent counter-arguement to the possibility of meaning existing (through art). I am skeptical of art having meaning, as well as the possibly of meaning at all.
So can you elaborate on non-semantic meaning? You seen to be saying that meaning in this case cannot be expressed in words. My challenge is that we've simply hijacked an evolved preference for certain harmonies and such, and we're simulating it in a way that is enjoyable.. Yes it would be hard to place meaning here, because it is like plugging yourself in to a emotional manipulation device. There is no difference when it comes down to it. That is not meaningful, semantic or otherwise.

> the whole of music is made out of giant motifs that evolve and differ and get toyed around with while staying the same. its kinda poetic. the same goes for all art
I agree but the motifs are not meaningfu, and arranging them is simply the window dressing of art, to obscure a motif that the brain likes.

Art pretends to hold truth that we cannot describe (hence the need for art). And this is the great lie behind art itself. There isn't anything behind it. A wall of smoke

the real tragedy is running out of books about the ideas that are interesting to you, realizing that it'd be on you to add something meaningful to our cultural legacy, and being forced to acknowledge that you don't have the talent to do it justice.

>>17229516
why do bluebirds enjoy bluebird chirps? why do animals put on mating displays (all forms of creative activity, in my opinion). Does a bug wave its forelegs at the female because it makes him feel so deep?

>>17229546
>looking for a kind of meaning that art isnt really about
yes... real meaning. which I believe cannot be found in anything. Music was over if the final holdouts. Now I'm checking out philosophy which has been received6 by other philosophers as clever and pretty tautologies. The funny thing is that desperately trying to cling to my shrinking valuation of art, against my will, is what lead me to this position. I don't want to believe this but I think it is true. There is no meaning in life, art is an attempt at faking it, especially for the artist, who releases inner tension in the work. I guess art can make us feel connected to our fellow man, but that still is not meaning, just comfort

>>17229639
Talent is largely earned through hard work, not bestowed. Most of our great works are by people who busted their ass off. It is not talent that is your issue, you are just lazy.

>>17225843
Yeah, you can only read so much in your life and I regret having wasted a few years not really reading much at all. But reading as an activity is pretty good for you assuming you balance it with activity. Like literally read books and have a workout routine for best results, it's that simple. And once in a while, hit up a fun bar. You're welcome, chud.

>>17229719
So if I were to say that I do bust my ass off every day, would you concede that I have the right to talk about my lack of talent?

>>17229591
>Your post is the only decent counter-arguement
im going to frame this
>So can you elaborate on non-semantic meaning?
its what we really mean by meaning in an artistic or musical context. what it really is is a feeling of beauty and aesthetic satisfaction. like the feeling you get when you place a tetris block perfectly or when things rhyme. when i go doot do lo doot doo, there is tension created and then the doot doo is the resolution. this has inherent beauty. this is what brings beauty into all art. this is the feeling of meaning. it doesnt really mean anything, its just a way we manipulate order and chaos into feeling certain feelings. but we still feel those feelings. a feeling of beauty, is inherently beautiful. this goes for all the wide spectrum of emotions that art is capable of producing. the wall of smoke is the point. the emotions you feel are the point.

music, and by extension all art, is a seemingly very alien language made up of different tensions and resolutions, that we can use to create different emotions out of. though it does boil down to tension and resolution, theres a world of things you can create with tension and resolution. its like saying anything written is the same old shit because its made up of the same 27 letters. in music and art, the same tools and fundemental ideas can be used to create many different feelings and states of mind. those fundemental similarities in art are reflections of those fundemental forces of nature, tension and resolution. chaos and order. i think thats what we mean by meaning in this context. its a sort of visceral and direct emotional meaning unshackled by ideas and semantics.

>>17229742
Another great post. A real work of _art_ in my opinion, though, sadly. What I don't understand is how the emotional response to beauty in art is meaning. I can feel an emotional response to a bottle of codiene dissolving in my stomach. What is the difference, besides the effort involved in attaining it? {imho the effort invested also contributes to the illusion of meaning}
You see where I'm coming from? I have felt ecstatic listening to music, sober or high. But that feeling is not my purpose in life, a savior of my life, or even instructive outside of "okay I know that feeling now, cool."
I guess there is a hedonism augment, or epicurean. I am not entirely familiar with their positions. But already I am very skeptical of this

>>17229734
No, I would probably say you need a different approach to the task at hand.

>>17229781
there is no meaning (in your sense) to life art or anything. but all those things can have beauty. and beauty is inherently valuable, or at least by definition, beautiful.
>I can feel an emotional response to a bottle of codiene dissolving in my stomach
thats one experience. art is another. ultimately whats valuable are experiences, or experiences that we value, again by definition. i think the answer lies in turning away from this ever receeding concept of """meaning""" and turning towards value and beauty. cuz both those things are right in front of you. otherwise id agree that life is life and things are the way they are just cause and there is no higher purpose. but to me, there has always been a kind of joy that comes with that. i feel like, if life had a purpose, it would take away from the freedom and fun. just like if we were doing art for a very specified and obvious functional purpose (like sex), it would lose all its coolness and beauty.
>Another great post. A real work of _art_ in my opinion
im showing this to my mom

>>17229835
Thanks anon. You have given me a glimmer of possiblity. Although you are sounding like a hedonist. Cioran and Becker say without delusions of meaning we can't function productively. Without art as meaning the last thing I have is love, which I'm skeptical of, but have investment myself in since at least others will enjoy it. There is a freedom in meaninglessness that is not dissimilar to what you are describing. After reaching these conclusions I stopped all creative activity for now, and while I listen to music I'm thinking entirely about context, production, messaging, etc. It's stimulating and sometimes there is beauty in that, like the naive words and ridiculous risks taken by younger artists that they manage to pull off. The beauty of life and youth can be seen even ignoring the actual notes.
Without meaning there is no pressure to do anything, including attempting to create authentic art. But maybe just for fun. Despite his ridiculously dark writing Cioran was against seriousness itself in all aspects of life and philosophy

>>17227042
This is largely true of fiction, but there's "experimental" work in every medium that exists for the explicit purpose of interesting people who are overly familiar with the mechanical aspects of the medium. Good or bad, it literally exists to address your specific problem.
Of course, art is in a sense always meaningless since it's always an incorrect, and any resemblance between your interpretation of someone else's interpretation of something real, and anything real is basically coincidence.

Anyway in answer to the OP, I basically want to live forever for the sole purpose of sorting out what's good and what's shit.

>>17229873
first of all, definitely dont invest in love. that hasnt turned out well for anyone. its a good experience while it lasts, so its worthy, but i wouldnt make it my "meaning"

second, i dont buy this
>without delusions of meaning we can't function productively
i think its perfectly possible to live experiencing the now and accepting it as it is. you can live without "meaning" very easily. but you cant live without value. and some things are inherently valuable and even abundant. like beauty. so why not live for that? why not just live for the things you value? most people at least value survival. then on top of that, there are things like beauty and love.
>and while I listen to music I'm thinking entirely about context, production, messaging
those are the least important aspects of music imo. for me it all comes down to songwriting. chords and melodies. like you said, it is all fundementally the same, but both that sameness and the subtle differences have that transcendental value. none of the messaging or context is worth a damn if it isnt musical.

anyways, like others in this thread i hope you find your way back again. i hope things just uncliked or its fatigue that will pass. music and art, though semantically meaningless, are ways we can experience a variety of very specific and at times alien emotions. that has to count for something. and ciorans right. its not that serious anyways

>>17226500
They get this way from too many video games during their formative years. Everyone and everything needs a "class"

>>17227042
This is a sublime take on the matter; once you consume enough of any media disillusionment is the only thing left

>>17225843
I read to gain knowledge not to brag that I read 'x' and 'x' books. You're having doubts because you treat reading like collecting a bunch of accolades, of course, you're going to think it's pointless if you have a horrible attitude for it.

>>17225843
no, it's low quality everywhere, unless you find inspiration in the intense focus on hesitation and the adventures of other men's penises.

>>17227042
I think you're just depressed, Anon.

I don’t worry about this kind of stuff. Just read bruh

>>17226507
>t. thinks every book is like Infinite Jest or Lolita

>>17226507
Actually it's 7

>>17230006
my love is invested in my family and friends. I'm old enough to be your father, most likely.

you are young and stupid, do not reply to a good conversation as if you are the previous poster

>>17227042
>Pick a medium and genre, go deep into it, and you'll find a few obscured tricks
Bullshit. If it were that easy, everyone could do it and way more people try and fail than succeed. In fact, it's more like a power law - the greatest are few and their memory continues for centuries.

>>17227042
I disagree. Life is a type of music in itself, so all I can see from this viewpoint of yours is nihilism and insecurity. Enjoy the delusion. Delusion is not a thing to be scared or weary of.

The idea that knowing the formula behind the delusion means knowing the experience of all its artistic applications suggests two things: one, you are afraid of being deluded, and refuse to let yourself go; and two, because you are afraid to let go, you are also incapable of being artistic yourself. An artist must engage in many delusions before he can create his own for someone else. Someone who just learned a formula never, ever made a convincing delusion as far as artists are concerned.

>>17227042
blow it out your ass

>>17230668

>>17227652
You know full well that Shakira's hips can't lie! Of course artists know what they are doing but they fair better when they claim mysterious origins of inspiration.

>>17227186
S Y D N E Y

>>17227042
If you believe this then you're admitting you think that every medium has peaked and has been fully explored and can no longer be innovated. Just because there is science behind why you enjoy certain things doesn't mean they can't be enjoyable. Sorry you discovered that Ariana Grande and Avengers are designed for the lowest common denominator and are just trying to make money, but there are plenty of artist out there that are trying to make something genuine and not "trick you for easy cash."

>>17227042
I've had similar thoughts in the past. With how accessible culture is today, people are reaching this state faster than ever.

How do you enjoy life when you are no longer capable of seeing anything in books, music, tv, movies, or even real life hobbies? I'm actually really fucking desperate to find this out.

>>17230028
What an observant comment, I had never before considered this.

>>17229692
Wouldnt that mean that humans have transcended the sexual signaling that ritualistic, melodic acts entail like birds and bugs? A man can be a hermit and love the music. A man can own nothing, aspire to nothing and still live for art.

>>17231081
Have you ever tried to make art or a craft of any kind? To stand in front of a task like that can feel very daunting and all pretensions of "understanding art" just washes away if you have no idea of what to actually do. Most remedy this by imitation and every step of imitation leads us to something more foreign, so there are things in the far distance art-wise that to us today would be very difficult to grasp and impossible to create. My point is that art is virtually endless and we feel confident in our abilities to "see through" the smoke because we heavily consume but never attempt to create. I hope this made sense.

>>17231067
Wow missing the point this hard lmao

>>17226507
truefalse

>>17227042
Yes, yes, now will you fight? Or will you perish like a dog?

>>17228453
Even without an absolute Gnostic reality, art follows a similar principle to Gnosticism or Platonism, being an internal Gnostic framework within a larger ontology. All artists are merely imitators, trying to achieve greatness, trying to tap into it for whatever reason, base or divine. But there are some artists, like physical nodes who can touch perfect forms, who make art simply because they must - these serve as the forms which the imitators can only copy and reduce over time, and imitators of the form itself, so most artists are actually twice under the influence, and thus they keep reducing each time they influence another. The grand principles that make art exist are of the delegation of the overarching system, but internally, its more like a simulacra simulation thingy majiggy if you get me.

>>17226500
That indicates that you spend too much time on this website. If you only came here occasionally you wouldn't care at all.

>>17231880
>if you only ate at this restaurant every once in a while you wouldn't care that they've started to put feces in the food

>>17231900
>>17226500
spot on. stale memes have gotta die.

>>17230726
>my love is invested in my family and friends.
even that can be frail and not pay off. but they are worthy experiences. and that was my point. that experiences are inherently valuable seperate from any abstract purely conceptual "meaning". thanks for brushing off my points with an ad hominem and tainting a good conversation. unless of course you arent the previous poster

>>17229466
>It's all manipulation. Read non-fiction or try to enjoy fiction/music/visual arts for what they are... clever nonsense and the illusion of meaning.
i dont think its necessary separate fiction or non-fiction with your claims. all can boil down to manipulation.

>>17231081
>With how accessible culture is today, people are reaching this state faster than ever.
The state they're reaching is, ironically, more deluded than any other state. Someone who thinks they have all of life figured out because they scanned over a wide variety of Wikipedia-like summaries is fooling themselves, not to mention robbing themselves of life. And you're right in that more and more people are reaching this state thanks to the internet.

"Real" meaning is a lie. All meaning is real. All of life is meaningful, all the time. Without our perception, life would not even feel "meaningless" -- meaninglessness is itself a type of meaning we give life. The point is that the mind that thinks life is meaningless is simply in a state of weakness. It hasn't uncovered the meaninglessness of life at all, it has simply become weak and now shapes life through its weakness. Life appears "meaningless" as a result. Only the weak organism thinks there is no point to anything. So my advice to people who are reaching that state these days is this: rather than try to search even more for "meaning" in the world (a concept that is actually unnecessary, since all of life is meaningful), try to work on yourself. Exercise more, travel more, eat better, make new friends, learn new skills, that kind of thing. By making yourself better, you'll make life better. As it is, you're withering away.

>>17227001
There is nothing wrong with poetry fuck you

>>17226500
read Baudrillard

>>17229531
What is "real meaning"? Frankly, nothing has meaning in any provable sense. Aside from cries of "pseud" or unfalsifiable religious drivel, I don't really see many counter argument. There's no system of philosophy or ideology where I can't continually ask the person "how come" and eventually get them to reveal all their position rests on some unprovable axiom such as "experience/instinctual-morals/whatever is good."

>>17227042
Is this is the reason why Plato made such a fuss about Dorian and Corinthian tunes?

>>17228820
Music is a quirk of auditory and language processing systems of the brain work. I'm aware dolphins and other intelligent species can enjoy music, but there's a reason it's not appealing to lesser creatures and it's not "inherent meaning."
What IS meaning?
>>17229591
>Art pretends to hold truth that we cannot describe (hence the need for art). And this is the great lie behind art itself. There isn't anything behind it. A wall of smoke
Where does this even come from as an idea?
>>17229742
If feelings can be meanings like this then hedonism is the only thing that makes sense.

>>17227042
> If you feel a spiritual high from music or literature, you are being lied to, or deluding yourself
So you’ve never experienced art...
In the culmination of all the ‘tricks’ and ‘hot air’ a qualitative shift occurs, provided the style is developed enough. As you experience the work, because all of the choices point past themselves, back to the consciousness that made them, you become attuned to that perspective, to a consciousness that is alien to you. You become other to yourself. Sure, you can autistically categorize every single choice that was made, and no single one is transcendent in the same way that no single neuron is conscious. But through true art you transcend yourself. It’s very rare that a style is developed enough to do this. But that’s why there’s a literary canon. For all the people who are totally bored with craft and plot and the rest, there exist thousands of works that contain the magic of a singular style, another consciousness to tap into, to be possessed by, and to integrate. And the soul never stops yearning for that movement; it is nothing but that movement. So if you’ve never experienced it, I think you are literally soulless.

That, or you’re the one simply deluding yourself with crude reductionism to seem edgy.

>>17233482
>Music is a quirk of auditory and language processing systems of the brain work
while i think theres a bit more to it than this, (since in communication whats neccesary is percieving timbres and not neccesarily frequency ratios, which all music perception depends on), id agree that theres at least some sort of connection. music does communicate emotion (through tensions and resolutions) in a direct manner rather than semantically. so it has meaning in the sense that it communicates emotions. in the sense that it "means" something to us emotionally. a maj 7 interval is interpreted in our ear and we have a response to it.
>If feelings can be meanings like this then hedonism is the only thing that makes sense.
okay. theres nothing wrong with that as long as you accept that there are different flavours to feelings and one may value those different flavours. usually hedonism is used to mean, "cheap pleasures". but all feelings can be made to induce aesthetic pleasure in art. if appreciation of beauty is hedonism, then so be it. but then why have the word "aesthete"

>>17231067
>you think that every medium has peaked and has been fully explored and can no longer be innovated.

This is literally true though.

>>17232707
> Without our perception, life would not even feel "meaningless" -- meaninglessness is itself a type of meaning we give life
This is an interesting point. I'm not sure I agree with the rest of the post, or at least I don't find it well supported. That's a point to be made that dumber animals don't worry about meaning.
>>17233725
>okay. theres nothing wrong with that as long as you accept that there are different flavours to feelings and one may value those different flavours.
In my experience, it's art connoisseurs who look down on the more epicurean hedonists. Not saying that's you, but it's common.

I use music just as white noise. Why am I confused when people glorify music? I could go all my life without ever listening to it - but I love drama and consider that essential to life, more so than sexual gratification.

>>17229692
You're not going to find something that resembles 'real meaning' because it is a metaphysical trick that plays on the philosophical privilege of interior over exterior, presence over absence, etc. This is the basis of all art as well. Once you understand this then you will see its value.

>>17229742
This is one of those writings about art in a general sense not about the actual creation of art historically, or the point of art in past centuries.

>>17234530
Music was already refuted by Sextus Empiricus (PBUH), don't worry.

>>17233606
The coffee cup someone left out of place is real art.

>>17228414
The problem with your argument is that pinkerton fucking blows

>>17234620
You know, if it was done in the right context and timing and with a thousand other evident and meaningful choices that all pointed beyond themselves to another person from whose perspective you temporarily occupy or get a profound glimpse into from interpreting the act, sure. Probably not. Because there is rarely anything like a developed style evident coffee cup placement. The qualitative shift in perspective does not come from a single mishap, it comes from the interpretation of a million complex choices.

>>17234685
So the function of real art is actually an impossibility because you can't actually occupy someone else's perspective, except trick yourself into believing you can? Did they say this during the renaissance too?
Profound insight, well I get the insight from considering the vast network of capital that got certain beans into a certain coffee machine and I also imagine all the production effort put into making all these coffee cups and how, in my current culture, there are correct and incorrect places to put coffee cups and it just blows my mind.

I could only regret not reading a 10/10 post on 4chan.
Don't hold back.

>>17234854
>is actually an impossibility because you can't actually occupy someone else's perspective, except trick yourself into believing you can?
You’re tricking yourself into believing you can’t. Or at the very least, in the failure to fully occupy the other’s perspective, you transform your own consciousness in ways that are entirely palpable and obvious to anyone who’s ever felt it. A paradigm shift. The same shift happens in love and very close friendship. Human connection. It’s a transcendent experience that is irreducible to its parts. An experience that art brings that won’t be spoiled by familiarity with rhetoric.

And again with the coffee strawman...

>>17235608
No that anon, but to be fair you haven't refuted the coffee argument.

>>17228573
This is the opinion of a dilettante

>>17235907
> The qualitative shift in perspective does not come from a single mishap, it comes from the interpretation of a million complex choices.
If OP is able to meaningfully interpret a million complex choices in the placement of a coffee cup, and those signs happen to coherently attune him to the mind of capital itself, then he will have achieved the solipsistic leap, sure. I don’t think this is feasible.

With the millions of complex choices that go into writing, however, it is possible (though still rare) that the style of the writer is so developed that enough of the signs point beyond themselves, imparting on the reader the shape of a singular state of mind that he experiences as transcending the previous shape of his consciousness, and which opens new horizons and possibilities of thought. An experience that any good reader of literature can attest to.

>>17235608
What makes art 'art' then if it's just imitating or facilitating human connection? Then it's not it's own thing but some subset operation of ... intense awareness of others? What's the point in that? You wanna start a family with a painting?

>>17229466
You must approach art as dasein

>>17231241
Yup. I tried to be an artist and it's pretty damn hard. You can't really appreciate it until you try it yourself.

>>17232707
Kind of true, but like when you're autistic and an alien everything becomes harder. Becoming weak is almost inevitable, I still go to the gym but I suck at making friends, mostly because no one is like me, and friends are really just people that are almost exactly like yourself. I wish I was normal.

>>17225877
what a thick cycle

>>17236084
Sounds like a lot of hoopla to me, but thanks for responding in any case.
>>17236221
Art is just an expression of basically anything. I'd argue the vast majority of things are art.

>>17236221
What makes life “life” and not just a subset operation of chemistry?
There is a qualitative change. You cannot account for art’s effects by understanding each successive element of craft. New horizons emerge. Art changes the shape of your consciousness through the movement of self-othering. The point is that expanded consciousness affords self-consciousness greater freedom.

>>17236403
You’ve never put down a book and found yourself thinking in that book’s prose style for hours afterword? You’ve never felt a change of heart after deeply empathizing with a character? You’ve never felt deeply seen and understood by a writer, anticipated and lead past your previous conception of yourself?

Why would you be drawn to literature enough to post here if you’d never experienced those things? Those are commonly reported transcendent experiences that only happen when reading great writing or experiencing great art. They can’t be explained as the sum of elements of craft, they are emergent phenomena.

>>17236515
>You’ve never put down a book and found yourself thinking in that book’s prose style for hours afterword? You’ve never felt a change of heart after deeply empathizing with a character? You’ve never felt deeply seen and understood by a writer, anticipated and lead past your previous conception of yourself?
I have, but I don't think it has meaning.

>>17236666
truly you are cursed

>>17236683
Can you define meaning in a more rigorous way so it can be properly criticized? Probably not, since it doesn't exist.

Sounds you you are using a lot of fancy words to say "meaning is when you change your mind on things" or even "meaning is when you feel good and get those emotional neurotransmitters". Like, all this significance to you is, in fact, just some combinations of physical chemicals and signals in your body and brain. There's nothing really there.

It's fun to enjoy things, but don't pretend they have significance.

>>17236968
>npc
>bland reductionism
Pb&j

>>17227042
>tricks
replace this word with 'tools'. Yes, tools are utilised to provoke certain emotions or states or manufacture meanings. How else would you produce art?
Meaningfags can't into aesthetic pleasure

>>17237078
I can see you have no argument. Just say so next time friend.

>>17227042
This sounds like cringe nihilism

>>17227042
partially correct

this is why i think music is the purest form of art though, you can't psyop the notes

>>17227042
Great! You're finally doing skepticism right: seeing the fundamental meaningless that underlies something that you love.
It's God or burst now, friend.

>>17237283
>you can't psyop the notes
lmao Cope

>>17225843
Go consume “once in a lifetime” by the Talking Heads, you’ll feel better. Or maybe you won’t, who knows.

>>17237430
Kys

>>17237453
A real nigga go all the way through it. But a bitch ass nigga like you stops when it starts to get really dark and cold.

>>17236666
Well what counts as meaningful to you? It seems likely you will never be satisfied with any definition of meaning. If the distinction between matter and life isn't a meaningful one, I think you're operating under a retarded conception of meaning. If the movement consciousness in self-othering produces a qualitative leap with emergent properties, then that's a meaningful effect akin to the change between matter and life. If you need to attach a telos to it, then the development of consciousness leads to the development of freedom.

>>17237451
Worst post I've seen today