/lit/ - Literature

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Yes.
Ancient Philosophy was in some ways the art of how to live well.

Ignorance unironically is bliss

>>17223944
this only counts for political issues in my opinion. As long as you're able to live well in your domain, the political situation is unnecessary

>>17223489
I stopped reading philosophy at all some years ago but I read some of the main ones. While at times interesting, they didn't leave a big mark on my thinking or maybe I just integrated the knowledge and forgot it. But the one of the few which did influence me was Nicomachean Ethics. I think it was around 9-10 years ago when I read it and it really changed the way I thought about my way of living and how what you do determines who you are. Strongly recommend.

Now I just compete in the rat race, love what I do for living and try to not to think too much about ideas or delve too deap in to meaning of things. Just medidate regularly to clear my mind and get to work. This allows me more time to read (not philosophy though kek), plan, work and play. What more do you need?

>>17224122
It counts for everything and especially for spirituality

>>17224152
>Now I just compete in the rat race
You went to the other extreme, it's not good either.

>>17223489
something something happy pig unhappy Socrates

>>17224405
Good post

>>17223489
>Did learning about philosophy and reading the work of great thinkers make you happier?
lol no.
I can cope with being alive better now than before but the misery i feel for being and being in this world has only every increased.

i dont think i "got it" until the past year, before then i was only engaging on an aesthetic level, it takes time to know what to look for and how to understand it, what has it gained me? a certain degree of faith and serenity.

>>17224682
What made it click for you?

>>17223489
it's more that if you have the mindset for it, you can't knowingly ignore the call to philosophical inquiry and be content. Oedipus had to solve the riddle of his birth, even knowing in a way that he would only find misery by going down that road.

>>17223489
Yes. I can think straight. I can handle stressors better. I know to live in the present and not ruminate over the past or future. And 10000 other things

>>17224665
Funny that no matter how well we got things, we still find ways to make ourselves miserable.

>>17223489
congratulations on your breakthrough anon! sounds like a wonderful and very deep dream. Buddha talks about meditating on the same feeling when he sat at the bodhi tree to achieve nirvana. Not buddhist, but that just resonated with me when reading your post.

like everything it is only good when consumed moderately, philosophy can be an enjoyable that exercises the mind, but it definitely isn't going to solve the meaning of life for you.

>>17224718
>if you have the mindset for it
For what? Philosophy?

>>17224723
>meditating on the same feeling
The feeling of childish carefreeness? What's the aim of such an exercise?

>>17223489
Questions that need answer fuel your brain's motivation to build new neural pathways, which will increase your cognitive reserve for the time when you're older, thus delaying or even avoiding age related neurological problems like alzheimers. Doubt shouldn't be a source of anxiety but a source of opportunity for you to explore and improve yourself.

>>17224700
not detaching ideas and conclusions from the whole, as if because it belongs to a certain school or period it isn't applicable elsewhere, seeing thru the vocab and cultural contingencies of writers and schools

>>17224727
yes. many people get on just fine without the drive to delve into philosophical questions.

>>17223489
No. I assume I'll be happy when I have all the answers. When I have certainty.

>>17224744
Like a sort of syncretism? And what conclusion did it lead you to?

>>17224749
That'll be never, then

>>17224733
going back to the source, the aim of not-trying, not-doing. the aim of not-clinging.

>>17224746
But does that mean some people are destined for philosophy or atleast raising such questions?

>>17224761
i don't believe in destiny as such, but some people have a natural inclination towards it or affinity for it.

I've barely read any philosophy but why is it that most retards who spend their time reading about philosophy always talk like low IQ theology retards?

>>17224761
I wouldn't use dramatic words like "destined", who knows what variety of factors contributes to awakening a philosophical attitude in people, my point is simply that if you don't feel compelled to ask philosophical questions you don't have to worry about them, and if you do then you can't turn your back on philosophy.

>>17224759
It's not that kids don't cling to anything, it's that the objects of their clinging are purer, and therefore immune to the neurotic fixation that creeps up on you as you grow up

>>17223944
In our society, ignorance turns you into a coomer, a status seeker or a consumerist. This does not lead to bliss.

>>17224789
yeah, consciousness isn't easy. there are no contradictions in a wolf or a mantis.

>>17223489
Yes, actually. It's a combination of happy and frustrated. I'm happy because I'm starting to understand the world, but frustrated that there's so much to cover and some questions that I know can't be answered. But I'd rather feel frustrated for that reason than, like I was before, latching onto whatever ideas made sense at any time, not understanding the meaning of the things I said.

>>17223489
>>17224723
>>17224789
Kind of an ironic question considering the OP but what are some books on this specific feeling? Can be fiction, philosophy, whatever. I'm looking for books that play around with this idea of pure simplicity, hope for the future, freeing yourself from worry and murky philosophizing...
Might make a thread later but I figured I'd ask here first

>>17224802
Yes, but at the same time there is something incredibly depressing in having enough political knowledge to realize the problem with a consumerist society. You're surrounded by people happy in ways that are really completely alien to you. I'm sure I'd be miserable in the long run but there's still that little quiet evil voice saying "But they seem to be enjoying it, just give in".

>>17224819
Faulkner probably, although most books have some form of conflict. "Everyone is happy and messing around and nothing happens" doesn't make for much of a story.

>>17224751
I think we can solve philosophy. We have tools now we didn't have in the past.

>>17224819
the ten oxherding pictures is a great little story related
https://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm

>>17224830
kek

>>17224819
also try some simple mindfulness books, Jack Kornfield is pretty wholesome and non-intrusive.

and try meditating anon, don't overdo it, but try it.

>>17224857
How do you overdo meditating

>>17224838
Is zen worth looking into?

>>17224863
you can turn anything into idolatry. lots of religious people worship their ""god"" with a fervor that changes the object of their faith to something entirely different.

I understood and justified my urge of seeking the truth when read Jasper's comparison of nature sciences and philosophy, and he says that philosophy will never will be a real science, because philosophy is personal after all. Everybody has to find his own philosophy, so now I'm not stressed to know the Scientific Truth, but inspired to become a more complete person.

>>17224749
Reading Stoner cured me of this

>>17224750
not exactly, that'd imply a patchwork, if some elements are selected others are necesarily rejected, whereas i think A is whole as is and needn't be cut into pieces and rebuilt with foreign parts from B, it's more the ability to see that A and B point to the same thing, only means of explaining and expressing it differ.

>>17224863
like all things it can drive you in the wrong direction by overdoing it. only meditating and no wholesome living or direction in life can be downright harmful.

it's basically about what you are prepared for, there's this general narrative today that meditation is good for you no matter what, and the more the merrier, but i haven't heard of anyone only meditating or solving all problems through meditation. buddha meditated, but he also lived, sought different masters and experienced many things to attain what he attained. like psychedelics it can be harmful if you have a singular focus on it.

there is this great native american folks tale about a hunter who sought spirit guidance to become a better person, so he sat in some cave, where the spirits dwelled, for a long time. in the end he had a nightmare where all the spirits where kicking and beating him for being in the cave, so he left again. presumably he didn't need spirit council and was living his life as he should.

>>17224870
it speaks to me, but at the same time, i find it a bit overmasculine/unloving. in the end it depends entirely depends on the zendo and the local sangha/community, and your disposition, but i think there is something to the ideology/religion that seeks out seekers of the extreme. on the other hand i have also found people who seem to be entirely at peace with it and the world around them.

>>17224925
Sounds like perennialism

>>17224926
>overmasculine/unloving
In what ways?

>>17224993
it's more a feeling. but the singular focus on one kind of meditation, zazen, doesn't help. the rites and rituals talked to me, but they were also kinda dead.

at the sangha i was at, the one who orchestrated it wasn't that good at giving advice, or empathetic in his advice giving. not to me mind you, just to the others, who i talked to afterwards. it's not that i know all, but i know when something isn't helpful.

small things like remembering a guy who yelled at people in traffic as we drove home from a day-session, and another guy who wrote about why there shouldn't be prayer rooms at hospitals just rubbed me the wrong way.

maybe it just isn't that wholesome, too singular or ascetic a focus.

but i really dig the texts and some of the insights it gives, so it's not pure bashing.

>>17225055
I guess it's hard to find a legit community in the west
Especially in zen since it has the most appeal to the new ager crowd

>>17225077
this weren't really new age crowd, and the orchestrater had been in japan for a long time, to study under his master. but yes, i think you are right.

but i also think it's hard to find a legit community in the east for that matter.

>>17224789
Where is that comic from? Anything else like it? I like the atmosphere.

>>17225098
david bowie - heroes

>>17225095
>but i also think it's hard to find a legit community in the east for that matter.
Less so, no? For zen/chan there are a bunch of monasteries in China, Japan... I don't think you'd find many half-assed or disingenuous masters there

>>17223489
It made me more humble and careful about what I say.

>>17225107
Nice song, but I was thinking of literature.

>>17225116
i think you do, i wouldn't know for sure, but i would imagine that like the church in the west, sanghas in the east suffer from the same kind of fate. people doing it to do something, or because they are drawn to tradition, wandering aimless or something else. the guy who ran the small zendo, told about how they sometimes put a little too much energy when using the stick (forgot it's name), and about how the monks had different ambitions. actually when i think about, i think his master came to the west because there wasn't the same devotion to zen in the east anymore. but again, i wouldn't know for sure.

>>17225155
That's kind of sad. Reading can only do so much, I wish finding someone who knows what they're talking about wasn't such a crapshoot

>>17224819
The pre-Fall humanity Dosto described in The Dream of a Ridiculous Man sounds like that.

>>17223489
This is true, however as you grow older you are bombarded by ideologies and get experience from events. Is your decision to just assimilate and accept these or try to find different points of view and form your own by literature, philosophy and science.
For me, I'm grateful that I'm not governed by mainstream philosophy and have my own conclusions based on my experience and the point of view of renowed men that have worked time and day to think the same issues I may have.

>>17225209
you just need enough independent thought to see through the bullshit

>>17224789
>yours
Who did he mean by this?

>>17224789
unironically bluepilled

>>17225733
Explain

>>17224811
same

>>17225736
idolizing youth is the norm, and as such, bluepilled

plus, are y'all really that miserable? I was happy as a child, sure, but isn't like I had a careless childhood when everything was fine all the time and suddenly life was bleak. I think most people just want to forget their previous undesirable experiences just to romanticize their past while I for some reason don't (everything happening unconsciously, if course).

>>17225825
Why is the norm always bluepilled?
Also, most people don't idolize youth; they idolize the corporate products that they used to consume during youth.

>>17225827
>Why is the norm always bluepilled?
That's pretty much how it works on the matrix. It's the general, non reactionary opinion, that is complacent with the status quo

>>17225882
Yeah but just because an opinion is unpopular doesn't mean it's right, either.

No. Read Ode to a Nightingale or Schopenhauer’s pessimistic essays. Man’s existence is inferior to that of the animal or child because he is “blessed” with a rational mind, which allows him to think and ponder about things. This introduces all sorts of cares and worries which the child and the animal don’t have.
>Fade far away, dissolve, and quite forget
>What thou among the leaves hast never known,
>The weariness, the fever, and the fret
>Here, where men sit and hear each other groan;
>Where palsy shakes a few, sad, last gray hairs,
>Where youth grows pale, and spectre-thin, and dies;
>Where but to think is to be full of sorrow
>And leaden-eyed despairs.
— Ode to A Nightingale, Keats

>>17225915
of course not, redpill is just contrarianism, at the end stuff isn't black or white

still, praising youth is status quo

>>17226010
As I said, normalfags don't praise youth but the images of youth that their favorite corporations present to them
It's a simulacrum

I can say yes but, perhaps it’s because I approach philosophy study from a different angle. Knowledge to me is not because I have some kind of existential angst, nor do I have some fear of the unknown nor am I seeking to find a “truth” to justify my identity or life. To me, knowledge is a means of devotion, philosophy is a spiritual practice. I say this because to me, God is truth, knowledge is the multiplicity of truth, knowledge is just the sum of the various facts which when counted together equals truth. So to me when I gain or contemplate, it is a means of drawing near to God, and I study phenomenology or ontology or even the small bits of neurology and physics that I have studied, because I genuinely believe that God created the laws and principles of reality, therefore by learning these things I can learn about God’s mind, God’s nature and the logical principles which his mind reflected through his act of creation.

So to me, these things are devotion, a form of worship, and whenever I’ve had a major philosophical development within my own model, it has come forth with tears of bliss and waves of satisfaction. And many times I have had philosophical realizations occur through the study of the texts of the Bible and various commentaries, sermons and various related esoterica.

And as philosophy as a whole, I believe philosophy can never truly give you adequate and complete knowledge, no system of knowledge can possibly contain the sum, thus I see all philosophy as being the highest form of art possible, it being a synthesis of the facts of nature with the interior perception of the individual philosopher. So I consider something like Hegel’s model to be a masterwork of Art for his artistic dealings with the questions of being and becoming and so forth.

So to me, Philosophy is both devotion to God and also the highest and most beautiful of All human Arts.

>>17226327
I feel like the pursuit of knowledge is just an addiction frankly
It doesn't bring peace, or genuine happiness
It just makes you able to understand better why you don't have those things

>>17225990
Who's the polar opposite of schopenhauer?
I want to be optimistic, not wallow in despair

>>17227179
Nietzsche is the polar opposite, he believes in life whereas Schopenhauer denies it

>>17227201
Nietzsche is an optimist?

>>17227205
I mean that Schopenhauer’s philosophy of denying the will and living as an ascetic is the polar opposite of Nietzsche

>>17224377
Not him, but what's the alternative? Pulling a Chris McCandless, fucking off to the forest and abandoning all your possessions and money? That just seems like the other end of the extreme. At the end of the day we all need money to have food, water and shelter. I don't find participating in jobs that quite literally put food on your table an extreme at all.

>>17227226
why did nietzsche find asceticism to be life denying?

>>17227230
>Pulling a Chris McCandless, fucking off to the forest and abandoning all your possessions and money?
I'm working towards this right now

>>17223489
>Did learning about philosophy and reading the work of great thinkers make you happier?
Yes, because I think it to be a fun mental exercise rather than some desperate search for meaning. Philosophy introduces novel modes of thinking and conclusions that can be used as spice in friendly conversation. Don’t take it so seriously and it will only enrich you

>>17223489
I had that feeling the night I became a Christian. I was actually reading philosophy at the time, and it was all so hopeless I knew it was false.

>>17227247
Make sure to do more research then he did, specifically on berries n shit

>>17227276
I tried Christianity but it did nothing for me, I get the same feeling from it

>>17227233
Well it is almost by definition isn't it? The ascetic denies his own impulses and puts restrictions upon himself not to carry them out. Nietzsche on the other hand admired Greek culture with its Dionysian orgies and wars. I can't tell you much in depth cause I've only read one of his books.

>>17224820
>>17224802
It allows them set the world in place and 'know' how things are. That's the only conform it brings. Otherwise it's shitty and almost everyone is mentally ill or at least extremely disagreeable today.

>Did learning about philosophy and reading the work of great thinkers make you happier?

No absolutely not, but it did help me find the materials of happiness and wisdom.

>>17227230
>I don't find participating in jobs that quite literally put food on your table an extreme at all.
Not trying to tell you how to live but equating submitting yourself to the rat race and all that implies with survival is the extreme, yes. It's coping. But if you've happened on slavery that is better (for you) than any other, what else are you to do.

>>17226229
go to sleep Jean

>>17227505
it's true though

>>17225882
>the matrix
What did you mean by this?

>as a kid... I had no questions... about the world
When I was a kid I was full of questions about the world and frustrated with my ability to articulate them. I read philosophy because I can't not. Philosophy is unlikely to make you happy, but it will undermine how highly you value happiness.

Those who aren't called to it should avoid philosophy. It won't help them or philosophy. They receive the effects of philosophy as it spreads out into wider culture, decades or centuries later.

Political education, though, is important for everyone. If you cannot see yourself as a member of a social body, you will not be able to combat the structural forces and trends of that society.

>>17223489
Insofar as wisdom literature builds foresight or makes for a more level head when there are decisions to make, it can clear the attic, so to speak, of an awful lot of junk that interferes with that--pop culture junk especially, but also the influence of bad parents or mentors, if any, and other such misfortunes of circumstance. Partly it depends on one's capacity to assimilate what's been read, and take it seriously enough to test ideas out in lots of little ways when you're still young and have the energy to do so, which in the longer run also preserves the same kind of vitality seen as a value through it. One of the things that made Montaigne exemplary as a sage is that he read the then extant philosophers as a child, along with anything else he could get his hands on that countless others before him noticed were worth keeping and preserving, a process that itself is frankly embedded in and frequently referred to in his writing. I had a rather "free range" sort of childhood with a lot more outdoor and science nerd kind of play than time in front of screens or in the rigid boxes of extracurricular activities designed for stupid children by stupid parents, but still learned a lot about how to live, and what to live for, from literature grounded in things about human nature, and the natural world, that are not subject to change by any act of will or invention, but are at best accommodated.

>>17227562
its true but its not significant