/lit/ - Literature

>>17224052
Check out the Red Line translation which has commentary by a wide variety of Chinese critics for each chapter.

Here is one that I think answers your question:

"The Tao is like a fruit. Hanging from a tree it contains the power of life, but it's womb is hidden. Once it falls, it puts forth virtue as it's root, kindness as it's stem, justice as it's branches, ritual as it's leaves, and knowledge as it's flower. All of these come from the Tao. 'That' refers to the flower. 'This' refers to the fruit. Those who embody the Tao choose the fruit over theo flower."

My own interpretation: look at the other chapters. Consider deeply the nature of complement between opposites. Focus on the emptiness from which these apparent goods arise, and know that the emptiness is the "essence" while the visible or named is only the "form".

>>17224375
Red Pine*
That's what I get for blocking 4chan on my laptop and being forced to phone post.

>>17224052
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

that is to say the benevolence or good intentions, are inherently contrived and will therefore negatively impact the world. lots of examples throughout history.

start with yourself, strive for having no agenda, letting go of attachments to such. reminds me of Bodhidharma meeting emperor Wu:
Emperor Wu asked Bodhidharma: “After I ascended the throne, I have built countless temples residences for monks and copied innumerable scriptures. How much merit have I accrued?”

Bodhidharma answered: “There is no merit.”

Startled, the Emperor then asked Bodhidharma: “What is the first principle of the holy teachings?”

Bodhidharma replied: “Vast emptiness, nothing holy.”

Emperor, frustrated, then asked Bodhidharma: “Who is this that stands before me?”

Bodhidharma answered:”I don’t know.”

>>17224414
>that is to say the benevolence or good intentions, are inherently contrived and will therefore negatively impact the world. lots of examples throughout history.
I think I became contrived because when I was not I did harm to people around me. Eventually I did so much harm that I felt something had to change, and so I became contrived. It is a central fear that I have held on to since then, 10 years ago or so, that if I do not police myself I will harm others.

>>17224514
i don't think that is a bad starting point, you want the best for the environment, and now it's like a fake it till you make it kind of situation.

the next step is just learning the inherent value of unconditional love and letting go of contrivances. love yourself anon, you obviously deserve it for what you are trying to do for those around you.

and try therapy, find someone good who understands you, but who also annoys you, because they hit close to home. image boards and chinese philosophy won't do all the work for you.

>>17224052
I think it depends.

>High virtue is not virtuous ...
>Low virtue never loses virtue ...

What does your annotation say? The original line says "上德不德,是以有德;下德不失德,是以無德。". The first half roughly means "上德者不自恃有德 (high-virtuous men don't think themselves virtuous)", while the second half means "下德者恪守形式上的徳 (low-virtuous men adhere to the forms of virtues)". Here, "不失德" carries the meaning "won't give up on virtues", implying obsession. In fact, "不失德者,執而未化也。(those who are unable to lose virtues are attached, and thus not 'enlightened'.)". There's no english word for "化", so enlightenment is the closest one, but it's quite different from enlightenment.

So, I think the first line already answers your question. It's not that you can or cannot "induce" a virtuous life, but rather why do you want a virtuous life? (and all the questions leading from it.) It's like the nirvana thing the chinese buddhists often say: you either get it, or you don't. You can mimic a virtuous life for 1000 years and still don't get it, or the mimicry can lead to you getting it, so that it becomes your 'tao'. Either way, you still need to 'get it'. Also, notice the hierarchy (hence the 'lose this, then lose that' lines.)
道>德>仁>義>禮
While 德 is usually lumped together with morality and goodness, it's actually more akin to forms of ideas. This hierarchy is describing the genesis of idea to relationship to behavior to society. So it's a bit misleading to talk about virtues.

>>17224611
this is too heavy to deal with today, but you are the second person to suggest it today.

>>17224801
>There's no english word for "化", so enlightenment is the closest one, but it's quite different from enlightenment.
in what way would you describe the difference?
>why do you want a virtuous life?
I don't know if it matters, but this>>17224514 basically. I can think of some other reasons, but that's really the one. Maybe you could see it as a form of attachment to guilt, I don't know. I think it made me terrified of acting in general.

Maybe this is like trying to put a band-aid on the wind, but do either of you have knowledge of tai chi/qi gong practices? I think I need something to do.

>>17224929
i do yoga, and i have tried tai chi, not seriously, but it definitely has something. and i mean, if it wakes your curiosity try it out, and yes, it sounds like doing something is the best step forward for you :)

Based thread. I was also confused by this chapter (among many others)

What's the Taoist perspective on Jesus' "Love your neighbor as yourself?"

>>17224611
Faking love til you truly love is also what C.S. Lewis recommends. Could it be rewritten as "be benevolent until you love"?

Is this what the Tao means by no-action? Once you love, being is sufficient and you no longer act/move?

>>17225456
i'm not an expert, but i think the christian contribution to the great religions is exactly this ethos of ethos, loving your neighbor, and so on. while the eastern religions have a larger focus on the individual and self-development.

the closest thing that comes to mind is:
“When the world's on the Way,
they use horses to haul manure.
When the world gets off the Way,
they breed warhorses on the common.

The greatest evil: wanting more.
The worst luck: discontent.
Greed's the curse of life.

To know enough's enough
is enough to know.”

that resting in yourself and in Tao will give way to a better world, so helping others by proxy.