/lit/ - Literature

>>17204129
whats your favorite section anon?

>>17204129
Retroactively beaten by Homer

>>17204129
>Dante's Divine Comedy
>it's not even funny
I rate it 4/10

>>17204141
not him but I really enjoy every political part where he shits on some random asshole

>>17204154
this post IS funny
10/10

>>17204141
volsimi a la sinistra col respitto
col quale il fantolin corre a la mamma
quando ha paura o quando elli è afflitto,
per dicere a Virgilio: ‘Men che dramma
di sangue m’è rimaso che non tremi:
conosco i segni de l’antica fiamma’.

I turned around and to my left—just as
a little child, afraid or in distress,
will hurry to his mother—anxiously,
to say to Virgil: “I am left with less
than one drop of my blood that does not tremble:
I recognize the signs of the old flame

>Divine Comedy
>expectation: "this Hell place sure sucks, but it's still way better than my mother-in-law's, AYY FORGETABOUTIT"
>it's just some douche from the Renaissance having a bad trip
Never again, from now on Ken Follet solely

>>17204129
is there any point at all in reading the divine comedy if I can't read it in Italian?

>>17204247
Not really. The music of the Italian is half the pleasure.

>>17204247
Still great in English. I can't read it in Italian yet, but I have a tab with the Italian pretty much permanently open that I read from periodically throughout the day

>>17204247
obviously yes there is

>>17204196
pic is completely inaccurate to dante's view, and totally fucked lol

‘Who are ye that have fled the eternal prison against the blind stream?’ he said, shaking those venerable locks. ‘Who has guided you or who was your lantern in coming forth from the profound night that holds in perpetual blackness the valley of Hell? Are the laws of the abyss thus broken, or has a new decree been made in Heaven, that, being damned, you come to my cliffs?’

Anyone know of a good Italian edition with notes?

>>17204335
explain

>>17204142
He puts Homer in Purgatory. Homer BTFO

>>17204142
Homer didn't attain awareness of the divine so Dante handily beats him.

Why do midwits get filtered by Purgatorio and Paradiso? It definitely beats Inferno.

>>17204141
“I would say more, but there across the sand
A new smoke rises and new people come,
and I must run to be with my own band.

Remember my Treasure, in which I shall live on: I ask no more.” He turned then, and he seemed,
Across that plain, like one of those who run

for the green cloth at Verona; and of those,
more like the one who wins, than those who lose.

>>17204450
The angels who didn’t side with God or side with Satan are considered the lowliest of the inferno, but they’re not even part of hell proper. They’re in Limbo if I remember correctly, and lack quality. The deepest circles of hell are for the traitorous to country, the traitorous to family, and the traitorous to God. Betrayal is the darkest sin, probably for a lot of reasons, but Dante’s circles are generally organized by the sins which require both more pride and more conscious thought. That’s why lust is the first circle, because it’s the most bodily / natural sin. It makes sense the angels who sided without God or Satan are outside hell, as they’re sin is the maximum of indecision.

It’s probably one of the best things ever written yeah.

>>17204472
A lot of people come for the edgy descriptions of hell and don’t really care about the platonic and Christian/scholastic aspects nor the beauty of the verse. So after collecting their edgy points for inferno they just drop it. It’s pretty clear to me at least that the imagery and the Italian verse in Paradiso is superior to purgatorio which is superior to inferno.

But I’ll gladly admit I sobbed at the scenes of meeting Adam, and Eve at the foot of Mary and so forth. I think if you aren’t a Christian and don’t like/can’t appreciate Christian themes the divine comedy won’t be nearly as interesting to you. Not to say non-Christians can’t enjoy it of course.

>>17204141

The high points of fantastical imagery in inferno is the scene of the transmuting lizard where he tries to one-up ovid, also the scene wherein he meets the various heretics and schismatics cut apart because he paints such a scene, if I had to compare it to other media I would compare it To the same feeling silent hill produces but refined to a much deeper level. Also the final icy hell and his interaction with the men there are quite fascinating. Funniest moment without a doubt is the argument and shit-flinging and fight scene in canto 30 of inferno, reads like something out of Rabelais for a moment before Virgil rebukes Dante for fixating On such lowly things. Similarly Dante uses more lowly language when writing in the inferno.

All of this pales in comparison to the sheer beauty of Purgatorio, whether it is Matilda’s dance or the great moment of Dante meeting Beatrice in canto 29 or just the scene where dante and Virgil enter upon the boat the absolute ethereal and ghostly feeling is so lovely that re-reading it I had to produce a poem of my own reflecting how much beauty I saw in it. Not to mention the philosophy expressed by Virgil in purgatorio is sublime and more refined than many other philosophers on matters of the ontological structure of man and love.

Some of the best Paradiso scenes to me, are within the Sun and the dancing circle of suns, the aforementioned Adam and Eve scene, Dante meeting his ancestor, Dante seeing the ladder of Jacob, Dante seeing the solar system, obviously Dante seeing Christ descend from the empyrean surrounded with angels and Mary there also. Really the entire Paradiso is just as peak as it can get to me.

>>17204521
This nigga has a trip.

>>17204521
hey tripfag, you're alright

>>17204196
How do I learn italian? I know French and English.

>>17205573
same way you learn any other language. comprehensible input, vocabulary drills, grammar study. that's essentially the gist of it.

>>17204174
>>17204196
>>17204507
>>17204521
loved reading all these responses, thanks guys. keep them coming /lit/

Pic related is a great read if you want to educate yourself more on Dante.

>>17204129
My Italian is only good enough to ask for the toilet, what's a good translation?

>>17204129
babada boopa boopada bippy oooh fuhfegaboooouuutit

>>17204450
>>17204507
Yeah, that image is based off a misquote by JFK

Alright which one of you is going to translate this into classical Latin I'm terza rima for the benefit of all mankind?

>>17204129
>all of my friends are in heaven and all of my enemies are in hell

this is the middle ages equivalent of a slambook

>>17205816
Multiple of his friends and heroes are in hell and purgatory and multiple of his enemies are in heaven. Read the book.

torture porn as art

Best English translation? Worth reading it at all in English? This thread has made me very interested.

>>17205856
Yes.

>>17205867
It's worth reading in translation. I'd suggest learning a bit of Italian at least and getting a bilingual edition and reading it out loud. Dante is well worth the effort.

>>17205890
Oh wow, thank you anon. I might reread it one day in translation but I'm trying to be realistic here so I'll choose one of the two options in your pic.

>>17204129
I stopped reading it after Inferno because I felt like I should read virgil first, but I might just start getting back into it because I feel like reading it again.

Is this the correct Ciradi kindle version?

https://www.amazon.com/Inferno-John-Ciardi-ebook/dp/B002CIY8OC/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=john+ciardi&qid=1609828020&s=digital-text&sr=1-2

Or maybe this one, which seems to have all sections included in one.

https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Dante-Alighieri-ebook/dp/B002IPZFY6/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+ciardi&qid=1609828020&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

>>17204521
did u read it in Italian?

>>17204507

"...I would say more, but hanging in the air
The dust-clouds rise not far ahead; wherefore
I must depart: for those approaching there

I may not meet. This only I implore:
That, in my Treasure, where I still live on,
Thou find some worthiness: I ask no more."

With this he turned, and seemed as swiftly gone
As those who race across Verona's fields
In open contest; and of those, the one

Who gains the green cloth, not the one who yields.

>>17204521
>The high points of fantastical imagery in inferno is the scene of the transmuting lizard where he tries to one-up ovid

I remember this canto (25) was particularly hard to translate because the verse is so compressed and intricate. I got it OK in the end I think, although I might try a little polishing:

---

If, Reader, thou consider it naive
To trust my story now, such is thy right:
For, I who saw it, scarcely can believe.

There as I stood, the three men plain in sight,
A strange six-footed serpent darting streaked
Straight up in front of one, and gripped him tight.

With middle feet it clasps his belly, seeks
With its anterior pair his arms; then finds
His face, and sinks its teeth in both his cheeks.

Now, rearmost feet along his thighs inclined,
It quests with upward tail the tender zone
Between the two, to wrap his loins behind.

About no tree has ever ivy grown
So rooted as, around the other's limbs,
That hideous monster slyly twined its own.

They stick together and their colours swim
And coalesce like wax when heated, so
That neither owns what first belonged to him:

Progressing as the colour brown will show
Before a flame on paper, not yet gone
To black entirely, as the white's deposed.

"Agnello!" cried the others, looking on:
"Ah me! How art thou changed, and at what cost;
Thou art already neither two nor one!"

The two heads now had wholly flowed across
To form a single unit, giving rise
To one new face in which the two were lost.

The upper limbs produced two arms; the thighs
And legs, meanwhile, and chest and belly, made
Such members as have never met men's eyes.

The former shape of each was quite betrayed,
With both, and neither, all perversely merged:
And slowly this chimera moved away.

[1/2]

>>17206661

Just as the lizard appears, beneath the scourge
Of summer's dog days, like a sudden flash
Of lightning when it darts from hedge to hedge,

So now there came a little reptile, brash
With rage, towards the others. Lithe and fleet,
And livid and black as pepper corn, it dashed

Direct to one of them and pierced that teat
Through which, unborn, we first receive nutrition;
Then fell to earth stretched out before his feet.

The pricked thief did not speak or shift position;
But only gazed, and yawned, like one ensnared
By sleepiness or feverish condition.

He eyed the reptile, which returned the stare:
Then from his wound, and from the other's mouth
Smoke spurted out, and mingled in the air.

Let Lucan cease from grandly holding forth
On sad Sabellus and Nasidius now,
But rather wait to hear what comes. And both

Of Cadmus and of Arethusa thou
Be silent, Ovid, for despite thy skill,
Transforming one to swan, and one to fount,

I need not envy thee. Not ever will
Thy art exchange two creatures face to face,
Each with his fellow's quiddity instilled.

They acted mutually in this embrace
In complement, so as the reptile cleaved
Its tail, the wounded spirit closed the space

Between his steps till legs and thighs achieved
A perfect juncture; which, so far from scarred,
Left no remaining mark to be perceived.

The figure that was lost in this regard,
The reptile's tail developed as it split;
And softened, as the other's skin grew hard.

I saw the arms retracting at the pits,
And then the creature's two short forefeet stretch
As much as reciprocity admits.

The two hind feet became the member which
A man conceals; and as they twined, there went
Two feet thrust out the same part in the wretch.

Then while the smoke that veils the pair presents
A different hue, and brings forth hair one place,
And elsewhere strips it to the same extent,

One figure rose and one sank down abased,
With always that unholy gaze maintained
Through which they each possessed the other's face:

He upright now, his features backward drained
Toward his temples; thereby giving rise
To excess flesh, from which new ears were gained,

Protruding through the cheeks: and in like wise
The unmoved substance bulged to form a nose,
And swelled the lips to an appropriate size.

The other lying prone, obtrudes below
A pointed snout; and, as the snail molested
Retracts its horns, he draws his ears in so:

And cleaves his tongue, which was before compressed
For speaking, whilst the other tongue, once forked,
Recloses; and the smoke now comes to rest.

[2/2]

>>17205741
That would be kino, but I'll definitely never be good enough at Latin for that

>>17206675
>kino
cringe

>>17206612
>gone
>one
God I hate this shit in poetry that attempts to keep a rhyme more than anything

You are correct since Ossian couldn't write when he made the greatest creations created.

>>17207024
>>17207048
Nice to see you are back ossianfag

>>17206673
Based for the attempt friend. I write a lot of poetry in terza rima so I know the absolute difficulty of it.

Example here’s one of a 9 poems I composed in terza rima, ill post it in the next post.

>>17206855
The complaint is understandable but one of the high points of praise of Dante is the absolute rhythm mixed with the terza rima structure while perfectly still conveying his imagery and thought. Terza rima makes a really odd twisting sound when done right but it’s honestly too difficult to juggle translating Dante properly while keeping his musical qualities. I honestly think you would need someone as or nearly as skilled as Dante in order to translate him with the same musical results.

>>17207885

Come lord of usury, come forth master of Greed

Come forth volucrine God, obsessed with shiny gems

come Forth Yahn Usura, come by your accursed creed

Richest of the merchants, i know whence your will stems

your city of pleasure, the hidden zerzura

to the west of Dukhla, past the sands of Haarams

there is the white city, where a black Asura

guards the precious pearl gates, the avian idol

the black guard lets none pass, none but yours, Yahn Usura

i said “thou slave demon, thy force I shall bridle

Gold shines more than the sun, more valuable than Health

more beautiful than life, and the valley idyll”

the black devil replied, “you have the soul of wealth,

a Jewel of the king, i grant to you entrance”

thus I saw the idol, there before it I knelt

its peacock form unveiled, its true lustrous presence

emerald green, ruby red, Gold, pearl, sapphire blue

the key of its mouth shined, it spoke “I grant entrance”

i took the Golden key, the pearl gate I walked through

a multitude of gems, a multitude of slaves

exotic Jinn, serpents, and there precious birds flew

I reached your great palace, and jealousy in waves

washed over my body, “I must make it all mine

not for anyone else, for this my spirit craves”

as I entered that place, I saw there a great sign

a warning or a praise? “CONTRA NATURUM DEI”

and I passed to your throne, which smelt of richest wine

the Jewels of sorrow, of the work of man’s day

stacked high as a mountain, there do your talons sit

and count and shine your gems, for on Man’s life you prey

you spoke “come to me now, dearest slave I permit

you look upon my face, you are to cut your Gem

with the blade of the days, then that jewel submit

back to me, it was mine, for from me do you stem

and you shall be a shade, shining with avarice

and you will bare my name, the name of Dystheos”

What is the best French version to read? Which translator? I've read of a new one by Michel Orcel. Or should I make myself some violence and read it in Italian (I speak Spanish as well.)

Bump