/lit/ - Literature

>>17155541
Because I don’t have the strength.

>>17155562
cringe yet truthpilled

>>17155541
Because my body is made to eat meat among other things.

>>17155541
individual choices don't matter.

>>17155597
>among other things.

yeah like coochie haha

I've been eating meat all my life
I like the taste
It's probably healthy or something
Neck yourself

>>17155598
don’t matter in terms of what?

I am

>>17155657
One person or even a dozen people going vegan, would be a drop in the bucket. There are almost eight billion people on earth, with the majority eating animal products.

>>17155541
I have tearing teeth.
I eat very little meat, though. I generally do not eat more than 500g a week, often less.

>>17155541
because im not a fag

All lives are equal (if you believe otherwise and still don't eat meat, you are a hypocrite).
However, I don't care about stepping on ants when I walk down the street; why should I care about chickens and pigs that were already slaughtered before I even got to my meal?

>>17155745
>he doesn't go out of his way to avoid bothering the ants
well screw you, buddy

>>17155541
humans and their natural diets are a part of the natural world
there's just too many humans.

>>17155745
>All lives are equal

Yikes.

>>17155707
do you think the end of factory farming is a worthwhile goal?

>>17155541
Savitri Devi was brilliant, but her take on eating animals shows she was still a woman after all. Humans are meant to eat animals. We should treat them with respect, though.

>>17155801
all lives don’t have to be equal to be worthy of moral consideration

>>17155608
Coping

>>17155829
i disagree, because i think you’re confusing her reasoning with mere sentimentality when it’s actually a pretty sophisticated ethics

>>17155707
If the majority of human beings engaged in an immoral practice would that justify it?

>>17155541
because I am neither a woman nor a fag.

Also because veganism will only lead to a lack in B12 and iron and will cause long term health issues.

>>17155541
Because eating meat is essential for health. Vegetarians and vegans are in worse physical and mental health than meat eaters that avoid processed food. However, V+V are in better health than many americans; because they usually avoid a lot of the processed crap that the avg person eats.

>>17155601
nice bro

>>17155707
>muh life doesn't matter bcus of many people
This is the most npc position I've ever heard

>>17155861
it’s pretty bad but actually >>17155853 is the most NPC reasoning, “i’m scared to be associated with [group of people] so i just do the opposite of what i think they do”

>>17155843
It's sophisticated sure, but also very autistic and succumbs to tunnel vision. There is definitely a sentimental aspect to it as well. It's the least realistic part of her philosophy.

>>17155541
Haven't read the book. From the goodreads description, it sounds based but misguided. Humans were meant to eat meat, it's our modern consumption habits that are the problem.

Livestock in America and around the world is so horribly mistreated it's disgusting. This does not change the fact that humans are meant to eat meat. It's definitely an argument for veganism, but not an argument against the morality of being carnivorous.

>>17155745
>all lives are equal
>other lives don't matter tho

Animal lives don't matter until Black Lives Matter.

>>17155909
>Livestock in America and around the world is so horribly mistreated it's disgusting. This does not change the fact that humans are meant to eat meat.
Correct.

>>17155541
Humanely raised and slaughtered livestock have better lives and deaths than wild animals. If any animal life is worth living, it is that of properly managed farm animals. Add the nutritional and ecological boons this arrangement confers to human society, and it becomes clear that only animal haters, misanthropes and nihilists can oppose it. Vegans hate life.

Savitri Devi was a sad person. How can you be a nazi and a strong german nationalist, but change your name and join one of the few multiracial hindu sects? It’s pathetic retardation and a lack of commitment, typical reactionary shit I guess

>>17155541
It’s conceited to elevate animal life over that of plants.

>>17155964
you live in a childish fantasy world, the notion of humanely raised and slaughtered livestock is irrelevant in a world of factory farming

>>17155999
It takes more plants to raise animals to eat than to eat plants directly.

>>17155999
if we accept your argument veganism is still superior since vegan diets involve lower overall plant consumption due to trophic levels

>>17155541
I am.

>>17156008
Given how few vegans there are, the opposition to factory farming is primarily driven by ethical meat eaters. If vegans were honestly concerned about animal welfare, they would join hands with those meat eaters rather than subjecting them to hysterical vilification while advocating exterminationism for farm animals so the only animals left are those engaged in the horrific struggle for survival in nature.

Life entails death. Veganism is predicated on the childish refusal to accept this reality, so cowed by the inevitability of death that they reject life altogether.

>>17156123
how can the opposition to factory farming in practice be primarily driven by ethical meat eaters when it’s their purchase of meat that drives the existence of factory farms? whatever ethical objections they have in their minds are irrelevant when their actions accomplish the exact opposite. what should vegans join their hands in doing exactly?

also re: death, this is pretty silly. of course death is an inevitability, that doesn’t mean we should make life brutish and miserable simply because it all ends in death. might as well torture and murder infants because hey, they were going to die eventually anyway.

I think people mostly only become vegans because they watched too many Disney movies while they were growing up. They see the big round eyes and the anthropomorphization of animals and they begin to unconsciously identify them and think of them as humans. Every single vegan begins their story of why they became vegan with tales of them witnessing animal abuse. They're driven by this emotional reaction and as they get older they'll plaster on some half baked ethics and pretend they came to veganism through an intellectual path. but it's always so incoherent.

This of course applies perfectly to Savitri Devi, minus the Disney movies. There's no rational classification of creatures that you see in Aristotle, there's no reason to value animals or humans more than plants, it's just pure emotionalism once you cut through the philosophical sounding rhetoric. I think it's a type of mental illness and I don't respect them. I'll continue being a "corpse muncher" and "puss drinker".

>>17156163
You're either dumb or playing dumb. This is a literature board; participants are expected to display a modicum of reading comprehension.

>>17156274
lol cop-out

>>17156274
so explain your disagreement with what i said

>>17156331
>>17156123
>>17156288
>how can the opposition to factory farming in practice be primarily driven by ethical meat eaters when it’s their purchase of meat that drives the existence of factory farms?
Ethical meat eaters don't source their meat from factory farms, so the existence of factory farms can obviously not serve as an indictment of meat eating simpliciter. It is clearly not vegans who are generating the demand for non factory farmed meat, because vegans don't eat meat. This is really simple stuff, and not something in need of being pointed out. I gave you the opportunity to demonstrate that you are arguing in good faith, and you came short, so this is the end of our exchange.

>>17155916
No, either all of them matter or all of them don't.

i don't give a shit about animals

>>17155541
because the weak should fear the strong

>>17156209
you have a weak feminine soul that pathologizes compassion and empathy. rope yourself.

>>17156577
>you have a weak feminine soul that pathologizes compassion and empathy. rope yourself.
He says, after wiping cum from his mouth.

>>17156632
i don’t consume animal byproducts

>>17156632
isn't your lunch break over? back to work you fucking droid

>>17156545
>It is clearly not vegans who are generating the demand for non factory farmed meat, because vegans don't eat meat.
Vegans don’t want to generate demand for meat at all, what is the argument here?

>>17155541
I thought Indians aren’t white, or is she just race larping?

>>17155821
The agriculture revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
>>17155846
>Morality spook
I wasn't placing a moral judgement. I was just explaining what the other anon said.
>>17155861
Where did I said my or individual lives don't matter? Just because it won't have a large impact it doesn't mean we don't have the autonomy to make the decision.

>>17155541
Only faggot utilitarians think there are good arguments for going vegan

>>17156661
See >>17155964

>>17156675
if the end of factory farming is a worthwhile goal, then how is doing nothing in support of that goal preferable to doing something?

>>17155601
Yo sicko mode right there bro

>>17155745
Supply and demand; the less people eat meat, the less the meat industry will slaughter to provide for the populace. The excuse of “why should I care when the animal is already dead before I eat it?” is the flimsiest excuse by non-vegetarians ever. I’m speaking as someone who eats meat btw, but I’ve been cutting back a lot recently.

>In this present-day, nightmarish world, 1 — the outcome of the victory
of the Dark Powers — we cannot, unfortunately, say a single word to the
glory of the greatest of all Western men of love and of vision; of the inspired Prophet (for that is what he was) who fought for the reinstallation of a world order in tune with the divine order of nature: a world order in which beautiful healthy beasts had rights, while decadent men had none. Whatever we could say would be bitterly held against us and our brothers in faith, and against the
very cause of Life which we intend to serve. Those who know will understand us without our mentioning the godlike leader's name. Those who do not know yet, will know one day (if they have at all any wits) and admit that we were right, and place the one great vegetarian ruler the West has ever had ahead of those most uncompromising expounders of the life-centered outlook who are,
at the same time, men of action.

kek

>>17156684
you have not even begun to grok deontological veganism

>>17156788
>i-is that an endorsement of Islam? b-b-but th-THAT'S NOT ON THE BASED CHECK LIST AAAAA HELP ME NIGGERMAN

fuck off

>>17156821
anon she’s not talking about muhammad.....

>>17155541
Because I understand my empathy evolved to be functional towards other members of my species, specifically my immediate family and close friends, then people of the same race as I.
Anyone, and anything else, including other animals was never meant to be able to affect my compassion, so I see it as manipulation. So no, I do not care about the suffering of animals, in fact I find it rather pathetic to care and believe you are mighty for being willing to go against your own interest to defend a pathetic entity that'd never return the favour, appreciate it nor care about you whatever.

>>17156879
>harumph... animals won't even return the favor... harumph

you sound like a fucking faggot

>>17155541
Because I like eating meat and it gives me lots of good protein. I don't have a moral obligation to become vegan, so what are some actual reasons not to?

>>17156905
like a child stamping his feet because ITS NOT FAIRRRRR that he has ethical duties when cows don’t

>>17156879
You aren’t probably white but some mixture of medi genes. It’s always people like you that get obsessed over race, kind of like an ugly duckling trying to fit in

>>17156905
Despite what the confused modern mind unthinkingly assumes, you don't get to have rights without the accompanying duties.

>>17156686
My issue with that is partly that it's not possible to treat animals well while meeting the current demand for meat and animal products. There seems to be no way to treat animals well without drastically decreasing that demand. Basically I'm decreasing it as much as I can, by demanding none at all.
The other part is that I don't trust that the animals really are well taken care of at "ethical" farms, and I think many people overestimate how well they are treated.

Also
>If any animal life is worth living, it is that of properly managed farm animals.
Wouldn't properly managed pets be even better? Of course that seems highly unlikely for farm animals right now, but the fact that we eat them doesn't make their lives more worth living. What you propose is only the best possible life given that we eat them.

>>17155541
Humans are made to eat meat. Homo erectus was the first one to create tools to be able to get meat off the bone. By starting to eat meat his brain size grew rapidly and almost reached the size of our brains.
On the other hand, meat nowadays is pure garbage. It's filled with hormones and antibiotics and it's production is very destructive for the environment.
So, all in all, meat is good, but livestock is bad.
I agree with the first reply of this guy >>17156675

Morals died with god.

>>17156951
>>17156931
>>17156905
Seethe as you will, I will continue eating meat and so will the rest of the world. Your ethics and morals are pathetic, and dysfunctional.
>>17156937
I have no idea what Medi genes are, but you sound like you are projecting hard.

>>17157016
wow did you discover nihilism yesterday

>>17157016
Exactly, that's why I can be mean to my mom without guilt.

>>17155964
I wouldn't say that farm raised animals have a better life that wild animals given they're taken out of their natural habitats and denied liberty. I would argue hunting is the best mode of meat consumption followed humanely raising live-stock.
This is a good video on it
https://youtu.be/mw4bCAZ03eo

>>17155608
>not an ethical justification
>Also not a justification, however meat tastes however you season it, and lots of vegan food tastes nice
>It isn't it increases your chance of heart disease, cancer and diabetes
>Vegans have the lowest rate of all cause mortality than any other diet group

>>17155829
>>17155909
>>17155950
>>17156879
>meant to
What a bunch of retards. Consider the implications of your sophistry.

>>17157129
The implications is that I get to enjoy eating meat without falling for the moralistic trap of Veganism, and I will continue to do so.

I repeat, I do not care about the suffering of animals.

>>17156719
It would take more than vegans to end it. Most people either don't know or care about the horrid conditions. The best we can do is to try and teach people that their gluttony has cost.

>>17157031
>I have no idea what Medi genes are
Look in the mirror hernandez

>>17157129
what do you mean i can’t just conjure teleological justifications out of thin air?

>>17157168
I never claimed to be white in my post, you have assumed that, because I put my race first, I must be Nordic European. Every race looks for their own, buddy.

I am Persian.

I'm lacto-vegetarian. Going vegetarian has been very easy, alternatives to meat are easy to find and make. I originally did it for health reasons, but I started looking into the moral justifications, and they all make total sense, especially since it's easy to switch. I'm less bloated, gain less fat and progress in the gym hasn't been affected by stopping eating meat, you just have to make sure you're as much protien and calories as you would be doing if you ate meat.

I'll probably go vegan one day, it's a bit more difficult, but I've had phases of being vegan for like 2 months, but I'm sure I'll eventually stick to. I recommend going veggie for a month or so to anyone and see how they feel.

>>17155745
Because Cow and pigs are sentient beings who feel pain and have higher level thoughts than insects, and we needlessly kill billions of them.

Humans are valued higher than animals, but needlessly killing a creature that thinks, feels and wants to be alive is immoral. It's simple.

>>17155597
>>17155598
>>17155608
>>17155729
>>17155745
>>17155787
>>17155829
>>17155853
>>17155858
>>17155909
>>17155950
>>17155964
>>17156209
>>17156684
Emotional appeals never convinced me of veganism. Here's the argument that did: the vegan asks the nonvegan to name the trait (or set of traits) present in humans that animals lack such that the slaughter of animals for food is justified but the slaughter of humans for food is not. After the nonvegan names the trait, the vegan proposes a hypothetical where said trait is removed from the human, then asks if it would be justified to slaughter these hypothetical humans for food. If the nonvegan does not think it would be justified, they must amend their original set of traits or accept that them being nonvegan entails a contradiction. If the nonvegan does think it's justified, then the vegan can show them the reductios entailed by their view.

>>17157299
Humans have souls, that's the trait. A human without a soul would be fine to kill, yes.

>>17157271
We don't kill cows and pigs "needlessly." Every single cow and pig alive today is born to feed humans. We kill them for that purpose.

>>17157193
Persian isn’t a race, you are asian and I’m white

>>17157193
How is the weather in LA today, Mamad?

There's something about Veganism that I just feel repelled by, its that meek, fragile, weak and over emotional persona, so sensitive, like an open wound surrounded by salt. Or like fine sand in a vagina.

I just cannot stand it, I feel physical disgust.

>>17157312
You have to be at least 18 years old to post here

>>17157321
I do not live in the US, nor is my name Mamad.
>>17157318
Say what you will, I'd still put my race over yours, and you should listen to your kind and do the same, instead of defending the people that'd gladly put themselves first.
No minority respects self hating white people.

>>17157299
>If the nonvegan does not think it would be justified, they must amend their original set of traits or accept that them being nonvegan entails a contradiction.

yes, but after awhile you repeatedly observe people run into these contradictions, recognize the irrationality and inconsistency of their beliefs, and then refuse to change their behavior in any way, usually justifying it with laziness or hedonism. i don’t know what to make of this except to conclude that some people are just inherently failures as moral agents

>>17157299
The trait that humans have is their rational nature or ability to philosophize, meaning their ability to formulate ideas, share them and either accept or reject them. This is what separates them from all other animals and sets humans above them.

>>17157354
we should be able to cannibalize intellectually disabled people and infants then, yes?

>>17157366
They already do that in China, so humans are certainly capable of being morally fine with doing that if the society at large accepts it.

>>17157340
>I'd still put my race over yours
But you aren’t white?

>>17157366
No because all humans have this nature regardless of whether it actually becomes actualized.

>>17157326

Hitler was, minimally, a vegetarian. I don't think there's anything particularly meek about it. I think the problem is that leftoids like to claim ownership of all these orthogonal things, and so they end up poisoning them by association. Go to any vegan website, or God forbid, R*ddit, and they are all leftoids. That is the problem. The subject matter itself is fine.

>>17157373
so if a human is conceivably able to justify a behavior, that means the behavior is morally justified? how does that not just make every action morally acceptable?

>>17157374
So?
Everyone race puts their own first, the most racist people I've met in my life were not even white people (Who openly invite me to their country and help me settle).

>>17157340
Do you perchance speak Persian? If so,
خواهشا بیشتر از این آبروی مارو جلو اینا نبر.

>>17157393
It does, do you really think you'd have issues eating dogs or retarded infants if you had been fed them as a kid, and grown up in a society that encouraged it?

This is why Veganism is retarded, is a self inflected, made up moralistic trap. You have made a wall around you, and claimed it was always there to begin with.

i'm selfish and it's readily available. i hope governments end up heavily regulating the meat market so it's harder to buy it and subsidize alternatives

>>17157395
>the most racist people I've met in my life were not even white people
Interesting. This would explain all these race baiting threads, because nonwhites hate themselves often for what they aren’t

>>17157312
What do you mean by "souls". And do you have arguments for a. humans having souls and b. animals not having them?
>>17157342
Very true. This has been happening as long as humans have been philosophizing; look at Socrates' interlocutors' behavior in Plato's dialogues.
>>17157354
So it would be justified to slaughter women for food?

>>17157390
Retards who will never become as intelligent as pigs are rational in nature?

>>17157319
It is needless because we don't NEED to do it, we can be perfectly healthy without eating meat.

If you went to a supermarket, and there was an aisle of human flesh, and an aisle of animal meat, and you chose to buy and eat the human flesh, that would be you needlessly eating human flesh. The same applies when you go to the supermarket and buy meat over beans, lentils, brocolli, etc.

>>17157413
Miss me with that retarded shit

>>17157406
>It does, do you really think you'd have issues eating dogs or retarded infants if you had been fed them as a kid, and grown up in a society that encouraged it?
Not him but I have a issues with eating animals even though I was fed them as a kid and even though the society around me encourages it.

>>17157406
yes, because i was fed cows and pigs as a child and through reason came to see this as an improper act and modified my behavior accordingly. you don’t have to do a thing just because it’s the norm

>>17157412
Its nothing to do with self hatred, its healthy and rational pride to put your own nation and people first before others. This is why even in the most multicultural cities I've been to, races voluntarily segregate themselves with their own.

>>17157413
Women, yes. But not animals.

>>17157413
It says so in the Bible.

>>17157415
Yes, they have the nature of a human being. Retarded people are human beings and human beings are rational animals.

>>17157401
This is an US website, and you will adapt to their culture and speak English, you imbecile.
ساکت باش ، کویر

>>17157418
Eating your own kind is cannibalism and only emerges when survival is threatened

Lets be honest. The majority of the right don't like veganism becaue they associate it with the left. They know nothing about nutrition or the ethics of it, they just think it's left wing. It means they don't have to actually think about it because that's already been thought about by Youtubers and such, so it goes alongside socialism, environmentalism and modern art as things they don't really know much about, but know they're supposed to disagree with.

>>17157450
Even if they specifically don't have that nature/ability. Ok, that's dumb but whatever.

meat is murder, but force of habit compels people to justify themselves and cope accordingly

>>17157435
But then you get the problem that everyone considers themself white. Greeks, Italians and others larp as white people because they can’t fathom the thought of being a different race, but the genes still speak the truth

>>17155541
I'm not vegetarian whatsoever but I've wondered if people of the future will judge people today for simply eating meat since they have artificial meat and all that.

For example, slavery in Roman Empire was accepted as an obvious thing. There were people who advocated treating them better and even encouraged freeing them but altogether abolishing it was simply unthinkable. Not even by Christians. Yet some leftists think certain American historical figures are irredeemable for that.

>>17157450
so ultimately the only reason is because they’re human animals and not non-human animals. the quality of being human is the only relevant distinction, and for some reason you grant human life particular moral consideration, perhaps because you’re a human yourself.

>>17157433
>>17157434
Its likely partly genetic, people with higher activity in the amygdala are more prone to end up being Vegans, Social Justice Warriors, Charity workers...etc
So at some point this battle of Vegans against meat Eaters comes down a biological battle between genes that are high empathy vs ones that are psychopatic.

Sadly, this is a losing battle for Vegans because in the end, you simply cannot force a psychopath like me to care about animal suffering, simply because my amygdala is not activating enough for me to care. So unless you kill me, you've already lost

>>17157488
lol @ this shitpost

>>17157481
Retards still have the nature of a human being even if all the normal qualities of an adult human are not actualized.

>>17157491
It's not just being human, it's specifically the rational nature. If aliens landed on Earth tomorrow and demonstrated an ability to philosophize then they would be afforded the same rights that all humans enjoy. What you are matters when it comes to how creatures should be treated. Dogs are treated better than snails because they can demonstrate more rational qualities.

>>17157373
This question >>17157366 is directed at you. You don't need to be a moral realist to be a vegan. Mentioning China or society's acceptance are just you weaseling your way out of the argument. And at this point, it's clear you don't think we should be able to slaughter disabled people or infants for food; if you thought it was fine, you could've just said yes and been done with the argument. No reason to ramble about other people's views. The argument doesn't entail veganism; it just probes your consistency (or lack thereof).

>>17157488
I disagree, not everyone is trying to be white. Some are just proud being their own race, nation and culture. Which is absolutely fine, and healthy.
Competition between races is natural and should be encouraged.

Self hating white people are not going to be anyone's allies, they are just going to find themselves stuck between other races wanting to kill them, and their own considering them traitors finally meeting their due.

>>17157510
t. brown „white“ greek
Post hands

>>17157530
>If aliens landed on Earth tomorrow and demonstrated an ability to philosophize then they would be afforded the same rights that all humans enjoy.

actually given their superior technological advancement they would likely conclude that they have superior rational faculties relative to mankind and would therefore be justified in exploiting/torturing/murdering us for their own pleasure, which i’m sure you would gladly consent to.

>>17157507
Replace veganism with abolitionism and animals with niggers and you will see that you are wrong. It's just a matter of time.

>>17157534
No, the only thing it proves is the stronghold society's views has on the individual. I was not born in China, so why would you speak me to think it is Ok to eat babies?

My point is that it is not a universal law that eating babies is not Ok, if there are a subset of the human species that is Ok with it. Therefore it follows logically that either, there is something different on a biological stand point between Chinese and I, or that morals are not as stone set as you'd want them to be, and therefore Veganism loses its strenght.

>>17157552
No, there can be no hierarchy of rational natures as I've defined it. You can either formulate ideas and accept or reject them or you can't. Those aliens wouldn't be justified in killing us for the same exact reason it isn't justified for us to kill rational creatures.

>>17157464
I will do absolutely whatever the fuck I want.
گالتو ببند و چرند نگو.

>>17157530
But if a retard alien came to earth and couldn't demonstrate any ability to philosophize, then what?

>>17157562
I am actually in favour of the abolitionism of Africans tho, I can only dream of how beautiful and safe my city would be without blacks in it.

>>17157581
That's the Persian spirit, my brother. Don't let no cunt tell you what to do.
You are still a queer tho

>>17157564
Again, I'm not asserting that veganism is objectively moral nor that nonveganism is objectively immoral. I'm probing your values. You don't need to bring up China when asked if (You) think it's ok to eat infants or the intellectually disabled.

>>17157569
conceivably the aliens could experience a level of rational thought orders of magnitude more sophisticated than ours such that it has an altogether different nature than human reason, much in the way non-human animals are sentient but lack language. in which case they would be justified in exploiting and killing us, right?

>>17157621
Yes, but I have a functional amygdala and I born, and raised in Western culture. You already know my values.

>>17157583
He would still have a rational nature for the same reason a retarded human would and it would be just as wrong to kill him. If we were to kill him in ignorance we could be morally absolved by that ignorance when we later discover their true nature but this is irrelevant.

>>17157622
Yes they could be very smart but it would still be within the spectrum of a rational nature. Can they accept or reject ideas? If yes they're rational regardless how good they are and accepting or rejecting them. If they're rational it's wrong to murder them.

>>17157622
>>17157552
>>17157491
>>17157415
I'm bored with this little game of "gotcha" now.

>>17157659
Likewise. Agree to disagree.

>>17156961
Of course supply might be reduced by ethical demands on animal husbandry. But when neither the vegan nor the ethical meat eater contribute to animal abuse, while only the latter makes a positive contribution to the continued existence of animal lives worth living as well as benefiting humanity by utilizing the animals' capacity to transform low grade (for humans) food inputs/waste and/or nonarable land into high grade food outputs as well as a plethora of raw materials for industrial use, the utilitarian calculus does not appear favorable to the vegan position.

Trust in ethical farms should not be necessary when easy means of video verification of humane treatment, especially during slaughter, are provided to consumers, regulators and society at large. There are initiatives like this where I live.

The question of pets is different because they are not typically expected to provide any material returns, and on those terms constitute a net economic burden, a large part of which is their food requirement, which, in case if dogs and cats, will need to be met primarily with animal products in order to be dependably nutritionally optimal.

>>17157643
okay, but given that we don’t actually know what it’s like to be a non-human animal - let’s say the aliens are not simply “smarter,” let’s say they experience modes of thought and communication that are utterly inaccessible to our more primitive brains and this is what’s enabled them to be sufficiently technologically advanced to land on our planet? why would we not just consent to be exploited and killed by them, since they have a nature that we lack?

I dropped the book on the half. At first I agreed with her for the most part, then she started pushing "humans are designed to eat vegetables" bullshit.

For the fucks sake, we can DIGEST meat and we have fucking FANGS, we were hunter-gatherer societies long before we knew about morals. We ENJOY meat, we have a SEPARATE taste receptor just for meats. What other proof do you need?

And she continues to push the same imperative and objectively false idea that we are made to be peaceful throughout the entire book, so I skipped. We are mad, we are aggressive, we are worse than animals, and she can't just deny that and imply that all that matters is our own choice.

Most vegans have rotten teeth and have to stick needles with B10 up their butt, what does that speak about nature of their worldview?

>>17157687
you’re not supposed to designate your own post as bait

>>17157569
Ok, so a human who can't formulate ideas and accept or reject them would not have a rational nature, correct?
>>17157569
The way you defined it previously certainly implied a hierarchy of rational natures. >Dogs are treated better than snails because they can demonstrate more rational qualities
>>17157659
lol of course

>>17157714
That's part of the bait, gotcha.

>Man is the only man to be conscious of its existence, therefore Being
>rest of the animals are just in the present, they feel but do not know
>therefore, we shouldn't cause them physical pain, but can kill them for food

>>17157687
What an awful argument for veganism. Why would she fallaciously appeal to nature when that's the dumbest argument offered in opposition to veganism?

>>17157741
the only animal*, I'm such a retard

>>17157510
>NOOOOO SOMEONE CALLED ME NONWHITE DESPITE MY MEDI HERITAGE, BROWN HAIR AND EYES THIS IS A SHITPOST
Cringe

>>17157760
Whiteness is moronic American construct, stop trying to stuff the world into tiny box of your propaganda washed brain. There is white skin, brown skin, yellow skin, black skin, there are no white people, there are people with white skin.

>>17157741
this is why i eat intellectually disabled people and infants

>>17157776
The are severe genetic differences between races, and its not a matter of skin colour only.

>>17157776
baste post, honestly i find savitri devi compelling in an eccentric/eclectic way but i don’t see how she squares her belief in universal fraternity with racialism but perhaps i simply haven’t grokked esoteric hitlerism

>>17157717
>Ok, so a human who can't formulate ideas and accept or reject them would not have a rational nature, correct?
You're going in circles now. Humans naturally have the ability to see. They have eyes by nature and when everything goes fine in their development, it results in eyesight. All human beings have this nature of eyesight, even when in some individuals their development is interrupted. They have eyesight by nature even when it isn't actualized. This is what is meant when it's said that human beings have a rational nature even when it isn't actualized. Nature is what something is and rationality is encoded in their very DNA, it's who they are. It's what it means to be human.

>>17157679
I take it you agree that treating all animals well would entail a drastic decrease of meat consumption? Since I know that many people, in fact the vast majority, are not willing to decrease their meat consumption much for the sake of animals, then others need to stop eating it completely. At least until we have solved it by societal change in attitude towards animals welfare or lab-grown meat.

I don't know where you live so I can't judge how naive you are about ethical farms. How are pigs slaughtered where you live?

>The question of pets is different because they are not typically expected to provide any material returns
Yeah, my point was that farm animals would have even better lives if we expected the same from them.

Veganism does not acknowledge the fact some people like me are Psychopathic, and benefit biologically, from inflicting pain and suffering. A subset if the population needs to be like me in order to do the tasks the masses are too scared to do.


Are you saying I am wrong for the way I was born?

>>17157391
Hitler lost.

>>17157894
He will live forever in the hearts of men.

>>17157901
Ok, but he still lost.

>>17157391
Hitler definitely had that manlet sheeting, pussified and sensitive man vibe going on. And that comes as someone who likes Nationa Socialism.

I do not see Hitler as a very masculine man at all.

carnists are untermensch
nuff said

>>17157861
No, we just need to change society to prevent you from doing it, or at least from it being done on a large-scale. Same thing with for example rules/laws against hitting children. It's not like we have genetically eradicated the people who enjoy or are okay with doing it, we've just made it socially and legally unacceptable. Same thing with slavery, women's rights, treating your pets any way you want to and so on.

>>17157924
post wrists

>>17157942
>we've just made it socially and legally unacceptable
Eh, there's always a venue for people like me. Be it in the military, or as private contractors, surgeons, judges, prison guards, even hunters or pest eliminators.

What issue comes with your false mind control scheme you claim to be true and factual, when you yourself admit its just a way to prevent people like me to become the majority. Your morals are not set in stone, your morals come from your biology, specifically by the amount certain areas of your brain fire up, and the size of complexity they have been developed to.

So the real truth of the world is that almost all philosophies are true, depending on your genetic make up and the behaviours you are set to be more prone to enact.

embarrassing how the non-vegans itt have outed themselves as moral relativists

not very serious thinkers after all

>>17155541
I was for a bit because I had IBS, it actually helped alot. Now I eat fish and eggs and feel really good

>>17157972
>Eh, there's always a venue for people like me. Be it in the military, or as private contractors, surgeons, judges, prison guards, even hunters or pest eliminators.
Yes, and that is true with everything. You can only do so much.

I never claimed my morals were objective. I know many people don't care about animal rights just as they really don't care about other people. I want to force them to act according to my morals when it comes to animal rights.

>>17157776
t. ivan de garcia

We neither deny the existence of human groups (races or nations) in which one finds a far greater proportion of superior individuals than in others, nor say that an average man and an average pig are just the same to us. But we say that, as one of the marks of nobility in superior man is to treat with generosity the weaker than himself — "may be kind, also," says Nietzsche of his "hero"; "may kindness be his supreme victory over himself — so, if the ordinary man be really the specimen of a superior species, let him prove it by helping the beasts to live and enjoy the sunshine, not by killing them or exploiting them for his own advantage. He is not justified in eating meat “because the tiger does too." He is not a tiger. He is expected to be a man. He possesses, at least in the general shape of his body, something in common with the truly great Ones, lovers of all that lives. He is to strive to live up to their example, not to imitate that of the beautiful but less evolved carnivorous beasts of the forest that do not — and by nature cannot — know better. Far from becoming defendable for the fact of man being "a higher species," meat-eating, — along with all forms of exploitation of animals — is condemned by it.

>>17157988

There is only moral relativism. Only cultists, and religious nuts try and argue otherwise, based on a 'higher power' that is unprovable.

>>17155541

Why? Because only prey animals eat plants.

>>17157467
What does that have to do with my post you idiot, can you read?

>>17157271

Bullshit. Life feeds on life. The end.

Are you going to argue morals to a pack of hyenas as they disembowel you? And that is somehow different from a pack of wild niggers trying to disembowel you because....human?

Are you a child? Get over yourself.

>>17158045
>I want to force them to act according to my morals when it comes to animal rights.
Never going to happen, because laws themselves do not stop anyone from doing anything. If I want to kill a random cat, I will, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Likely I won't cause its a waste of energy, but still.

>>17157812
A blind person does not have a "seeing nature" in virtue of other humans' ability to see. Are you retarded?

>>17155541
All the meat in the market is from animals who have already been killed, me not eating delicious dead animals isn’t going to suddenly save them and undo their deaths.
> but you can influence others
> but you can boycott
I have one short life, someone else can devote their life into this

>>17155541
Honestly it's because meat and dairy taste good

>>17157791
well, yes
>infants are potentially adults and abortion immoral

>>17158171
you’re the child, you’re the one whining about the fact that as a human you have the capacity to act in an ethically dutiful way. who cares that the hyena’s can’t? they’re hyenas. be a rational human.

>>17158171
Hyenas don't have the capacity to decide what's right and wrong, they act purely on instinct. Humans have moral agency, they can decide when something is wrong, and therefor that they shouldn't do it.

You can be perfectly healthy without killing animals, therefor killing them to eat them is needless. Killing something that wants to live when you don't have to and have a decision not to is less ethical than choosing to kill, and your dumb "But animals eat animals!!" doesn't change that.

>>17158157
You are too stupid for lateral thinking, how long have you been vegan?

>>17157299
Technically veganism doesn't even vouch for complete removal of a meat diet but about minimizing suffering, which is hard to attack. If you are a vegan and you fall ill with whatever bowel disease and you can't eat groceries, vegans won't really condemn you. The point is doing your best for the sake of collectivity. Broadly speaking, vegans do not care that you can't grow groceries in the North Pole or in some other area where agriculture is impossible, it's fine if someone in the fucking desert eats meat, the point is moving as far away as possible from industrial farming whenever it's possible, e.g. in areas where agriculture would do just fine.
Of course there are nutcases, just like there are Christian nutcases, etc. and those people have invaded every single space on the internet just like they invaded everywhere else, but people are so interested in rejecting not the argument, but the base idea itself of giving up their daily mcbacon on an ethical basis that they will cling onto the crazy idiot vegan or "you can't grow crops in Siberia" and other bullshit to justify not even looking at what they're enabling. Looking at this argument has honestly kickstarted my whole hatred for people. You can pick whatever you want on the menu of spicy takes as long as there are official options, you can have your "alt right" social media, you can have your "far left" social media, but attack some of the basic shit like mass consumption and lifestyle and people go insane. Most leftists who claim they are vegan or vegetarian eat meat regularly, they straight up lie about it for brownie points. Pretty sure after the fat people stuff they've completely dropped it.
It's so goddamn fucking hard to get someone to finally say "the truth is that I just don't care", why don't you fucking say that straight off the bat instead of wasting time losing arguments is beyond me. Most people who have committed every sin under the sun and never truly thought about anything spiritual will find a newfound religiosity when you touch this subject and talk about what God meant for animals or "souls"

>>17158195
why did you just set up an argument then proceed to argue against it only to conclude that you’re too lazy and unmotivated to act in an ethical way?

>>17158186
I mean on a large scale, like we prevent people from hitting their kids or their pets. Of course it still happens. Are you sure you're a capital P Psychopath and not just an edgy teen? We've all been there, no need to be embarrassed.

>>17158231
How does canibalism being a last resort of humans negate the post you actual retard? If there is animal meat in a supermarket, and non-animal products too, and you can be healthy without the meat, then purchasing it is needless.

>>17158257
It varies on my level of stress, I am convinced my amygdala can be somewhat half functional if I am relaxed for long enough, but during periods of stress it goes blank.
I've done really cruel things and felt no remorse afterwards.

There's no way to say this publicly without being seeing as cringy or edgy for it

>>17158254
people are completely incapable of ethics, including not lying about not having ethics

>>17155541
Because God permitted the consumption of meat under certain conditions.

>>17155541
Humans are omnivores so ill just eat whatever i want

>>17157299
your mom obviously didn't get the memo because she ate my ass last night

>>17158282
Well you have to admit going oh yeah i'd kill a cat if it wasn't sucha waste of energy is a bit try-hard my friend. But I understand, it seems some people simply lack empathy.

>>17158316
>philosophy board
>everyone is a coomer consoomer shitter with zero non mainstream takes on anything
what a worthless site full of worthless people

>>17158316
Is it?
Killer whales play with their pray for fun, sometimes without bothering to kill it, sometimes doing so without hunger.
The joy of hunting is a primal instinct build in that drives you to enact the behaviours that make you better at surviving, practising killing something just for the fun of it will make you better at killing when you need to feed yourself.

Its not immoral to find joy in killing, its just not really functional when you kill random people (Unless they are dysfunctional themselves, in which case I think it is fine)

>>17158433
>knock knock
>who is it?
>it's the free tendies man
>oh WOW free tendies
>anon opens the door
>it's an enormous nigga
>he bends anon over and starts raping him viciously
>noooooo please no, not my poor asshole
>why? I like rapin' people for fun, makes me better at rapin', sex is a normal instinct
>b-but you're hurting me, please!
>but anon it's not immoral to find joy in rapin' cuz mindless animals do it all the time, now shut up shhhh
are you comfortable with this scenario actually happening to you?
of course without being dishonest and saying "yes" just to be coherent

>Still, to destroy a creature that is only too glad to live — especially a beautiful one, like those of which man is so proud to wear the stolen skins —to deny it for ever the pleasure of breath and movement and the joy of seeing the sun, in order to provide another species with extra comforts and luxuries, is far worse than to put deficient human beings into the lethal chamber for the betterment of the human race.

kek

>>17158374
wat

>>17158568
She is fun to read just because of how straightforward and unapologetic she is.

>>17158591
if you say orange man bad or kill all men there's a place for you, but if you dare say anything about eating animals, or anything about piracy or copyright, or anything about pornography and everyone goes back to acting as one monolithic NPC entity
regardless of vegans you are all another flavor of the same shit, reddit, 4chan, facebook, it's all the same person multiplied by seven billion with a different stupid badge on his sleeve
literally not one articulate, individual thought on the whole internet

>>17158645
wat

>>17158645
what a faggot

>>17158645
Let me guess, you're a vegan, anti-porn, and anti-piracy? And you love to feel like you're going against the grain with all of this

>>17158271
You presented two extremes of eating either animals or humans, which is a shit argument. Only a schizo puts the life of humans on the same pedestal as animals

>>17158497
You are being silly, because me being raped does not benefit me. This is however a scenario that does happen in real life tho, and I promise you that the nigger would be comfortable and enjoying it

>>17158298
That’s not true. Humans are carnivores and our short guts are proof that we weren’t meant to live solely on plants but rather fatty meats. All plant eaters have long colons

>>17158497
It is a fallacy to suggest one needs to endure what he is morally comfortable doing to others, where does that thought even come from?
Every animal wants to kill, no animal wants to be killed

>>17158705
Not a vegan, not anti-porn, yes I am against piracy. But it doesn't matter why to you, so please imagine me as whatever strawman you want, I don't care.

>>17158374
It’s typical identity politics on this board, with babbling virgin incels trying to strawman the opponent

>>17157830
Changes in consumption patterns would probably depend on location. Since meat demand is probably fairly unelastic, meat becoming a more precious commodity would shift the balance of power and prestige between city and countryside back to the latter to some extent. Urbanites would need to pay extra or forgo much of their meat consumption, while rurals would have the option to increase profit margins and/or preferentially self/community support their meat consumption. This would facilitate some measure of de-urbanization; a welcome development in my estimation, as large parts of the modern world have become dangerously alienated from the fundamental processes that sustain our lifestyles and consequently develop dysfunctional attitudes to one another and the natural world.

I don't know how to find English articles on the subject, but doing a web search on "Weideschlachtung" and "Hofschlachtung" will turn up German articles for those able to read them or willing to suffer through machine translations. Here's a video of what this might entail:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2lmHz5OF7EU

My comment on pets was just meant to remind you that the most popular kinds of pets thrive only on animal foods, so treating all animals as pets is not feasable. Your nitpick that - issues of practicality set aside - pet life is better than livestock life is true, of course.

>>17155541
because supporting monoculture crops is probably just as bad as bad as supporting the shitty conditions we put animals through for meat production.

i read something somewhere that we could easily supply "beef" by allowing bison to free range on the grasslands again ... I forget the details but the point is that there are alternatives that are more ethical and environmentally sound without resorting to extreme diet restrictions that have zero effect on the world around you

>>17158736
i don’t want to kill

>>17158747
what do you mean by ”beef”

>>17158747
>because supporting monoculture crops is probably just as bad
some 60% of the crops we grow go to the animal farming industry
what do you think the animals eat? air?

>>17158753
You've never had a reason to kill

>>17158738
>not a vegan
>not anti-porn
>anti-piracy
Bro these are all normie opinions, why are you acting like you're so beleaguered

>>17158747
>i read something somewhere that we could easily supply "beef" by allowing bison to free range on the grasslands again
39 million cows are slaughtered for meat every year, there is no way to approach that sort of volume without farming

>>17155541
Because plants are morally superior to all other life forms.
If I'm going to consume them I may as well do the same with animals.
Arbitrary preference for creatures we can call conscious is not a sufficient reason to upend the natural instinct to consume meat.

>>17158830
>Because plants are morally superior to all other life forms.
Sad that you aren't fungi-pilled

>>17157299
what trait is present in animals that is absent in plants such that the mass slaughter of plants for food is justified but the slaughter of animals for food is not?

>>17158767
This is a common vegan canard. Livestock is fed mostly what would otherwise be food waste:
>https://www.cgiar.org/news-events/news/fao-sets-the-record-straight-86-of-livestock-feed-is-inedible-by-humans/

>>17158712
I'm convinced you're actually retarded. I'm not implying they are the same thing or similar, it was an example to show that choosing to eat the human flesh is NEEDLESS because there is an alternative, just like choosing to eat animal meat is NEEDLESS because there is an alternative.

>>17158830
This has already been addressed
>>17156014
>>17156030

>>17158814
If they are normie opinions why does every single fucking soul disagree with my views (which I won't explain because I don't care anymore) using the same few shitty NPC points over and over? Not to mention that every single fucking time I discuss these subjects I have to fight a slew of retarded takes like
>oh you argue in favor of vegans so you are a vegan, therefore you are a leftie liberal person who also thinks this and that
>I agree with you on this thing, but I act in a way that directly contradicts it - wait you do not act the same way? you must be a fundamentalist christian bigot!!!
and so on

>>17158860
It still needs to be grown you dummy

Reminder that Jesus was vegetarian.

>>17158860
You misunderstand, feed corn for instance is grown specifically for animals. It is hard and inedible to humans but it isn't waste.

Incredible, 230 posts in and I disagree with literally every single one. Unironically great for solidifying one's own opinion, thank you /lit/

>>17158874
If you are in favor of veganism, why aren't you a vegan?

>>17158905
Interesting, so what is your opinion on the matter?

>>17158860
>Livestock is fed mostly what would otherwise be food waste
And they say that "animals eat from grassland pastures that are not convertible to agriculture"
Yet whenever is needed we can cut down anything needed to make more room for crops? That's retarded. I straight up don't believe it unless it's confirmed by other sources.

>>17158876
Again, the vast majority is grown for humans, not animals. It doesn't make economic sense for most farmers to specifically grow crops for animal consumption when they can just grow regular cash crops and put the waste to use as livestock feed.

>>17158900
oh and then there's this trickery just to create convenient statistics, these organizations are corrupt as fuck

>>17157312
I forgot people unironically believed this

>>17155541
I am vegan and I really want to read her book - Angeklagt: der Mensch: Anthropozentrische versus biozentrische Weltsicht

>>17158957
they only believe this when they are discussing veganism
this is what people act like, say whatever works

>>17155541
Because I'm pro-choice

>>17158946
>It doesn't make economic sense for most farmers to specifically grow crops for animal consumption
Actually it makes perfect sense. The margins in farming are very thin, it's not as simple as "grow tomatoes, make money," and crops like corn and basedbeans are often heavily subsidized because of their versatility. America grow more corn than anything else, no other crop even comes close. Most of it is actually used in industrial applications (making ethanol, plastics, corn syrup, etc), and then next biggest portion is fed to animals. The vast majority of basedbeans are used as chicken feed. There are different varieties which are suited to each application, nobody is feeding sweet corn to cows.

>>17159062
>basedbeans
kek

>>17156999
What does 'meant to eat meat' mean exactly? We can live a healthy lifestyle in the modern world without it. Yes you have to be selective about getting certain nutrition from certain foods - specifically B12 and Omega 3 - but if it can be done, why not?

>>17155541
>anon, why aren’t you vegan?
I don't consider animal life important enough to preserve.

I both penetrate animals, and eat their flesh.

>>17159062
This doesn't even go into how heavily subsidised the meat and dairy industries are generally. People complain about how expensive meat substitutes are, (like you have to eat beyond burger rather than whole foods, but anyway), but I wonder how they would react to the huge price increase in meat if the subsidies vanished.

>>17159087
then you should be vegan, as those billions of animals bred and raised as livestock are only kept alive for human consumption

>>17159118
Good, I'll consume them, because I don't care about their preservation.

>>17159123
if you purchase them for consumption you are paying for even more to be bred and preserved

>>17155541
I like to eat animals, and love hunting.

>You need to be concerned for the suffering of an animal that is incapable of returning the favor
Nah, don't see the point.

>>17158900
Field corn is a multi use crop, much like onions, where the oil is used primarily for human consumption and the meal is used primarily as animal feed. In the case of field corn, while much is indeed used for animal feed, other similarly important usages are ethanol production and various industrial applications. In reality there is very little direct land/food competition in crops for animal/use; modern agriculture is very adept at marketing all components of what is grown.

>>17159132
what’s with you brainlets obsessed with reciprocity?

>>17157406
This retarded argument could be used against any principal or moralistic conclusions.
>You don't like kiddy porn? Why you building these walls around yourself bro?

>>17159108
Yeah in the US about 65% of food subsidies go to the meat industry
but don't worry anon we're working on alternative facts to fix that

>>17158930
Has to do more with the teleology of present humanity vs. historical humanity, and what the future of mankind's relationship to nature actually looks like. But I'm not sure I'd actually be informing anybody's opinion, so I'll just lurk more

>>17159034

>>17159062
I think we were talking past each other. See
>>17159138

>>17159129
>preserved
I'm not sure what you think the meat industry does...

>>17159145
>Why do you want something in return lol

>>17159149
Yeah, and notice how every example you set is something that gets broken by people every single day.
Killing people? It happens
Raping? It happens
Kiddie porn? It happens

>>17159183
are there more or less cows each year?

>>17159183
Farm animals exist at extreme population counts that they’d never achieve naturally, so in purely Darwinian terms, it’s a mutualistic relationship

>>17159190
ETHICS BTFO

>>17159145
If it's not capable of returning the charitable impulse I don't see why you should bother in the first place. The idea that the morally inferior demand more consideration instead of less is kind of silly.

>>17157507
>You may never defeat a psychopath like me
>Unless you kill me, you've already lost

This has to be b8 right?

>>17159170
Yeah, we are in closer agreement than it initially seemed. But still, it takes a lot of land and energy to produce meat in the way that we currently do. I would love to see a shift to more localized food production (and not "local" as a product, I mean people being directly involved in raising their own meat) but that will never happen because no one wants to get their hands dirty.

>>17159216
Killing and eating animals isn’t psychopathic by definition since they aren’t people.

>>17155541
I'm vegetarian (free range eggs and bio milk). Most vegan food is trash (it's no wonder vegans end up looking malnourished) and vegans themselves tend to be annoying ultraliberal faggots, but it's doable if you're willing to cook for yourself.

>>17156879
>that'd never return the favour
This also works for quite literally everyone outside of your nuclear family and a couple of really close friends (best case scenario)

>>17159248
Vegans and vegetarians who do it for "health reasons" are infinitely more obnoxious than those who do it for moral reasons

>>17158864
Eating human meat makes people sick but animal meat doesn’t. You reasoning is third grade because humans wouldn’t eat other humans even if it was the only option. The only time they do is for spiritual reasons or when close to starvation. Animal meat is good for you

>>17159200
That is not a metric of preservance. There could be an infinity of cows, if all are slaughtered, none are preserved.

>>17159248
>This also works for quite literally everyone outside of your nuclear family and a couple of really close friends (best case scenario)

This is why I don’t help people outside of my personal sphere unless I have good reason to expect something in return.

>>17159269
>Eating human meat makes people sick but animal meat doesn’t

Wrong. Human meat is usually safe to eat since prions are pretty rare, and we can get prions from other animal meat anyway.

> You reasoning is third grade because humans wouldn’t eat other humans even if it was the only option.

I’d clean someone like a deer and eat them if I had nothing else to eat.

I’m a white man and love me meat, simple as. Some libtard fairies won’t change my high test nutrition

>>17159269
>Eating human meat makes people sick but animal meat doesn’t.
There’s something funny about this considering the pandemic.

>>17159287
>tethering your identity to your diet
That's something a vegan would do

>>17158232
Best post in the thread

>>17157562
Over 80% of vegans stop being vegans. Good luck with that

>>17159220
Agree completely. I recently got my hands on a modest plot of land and am looking into growing/raising my own food. But I do have to point out that this much more feasable with the inclusion of animal products. Vegeterians should be alright, but I would caution vegans to be very attentive to their nutritional needs should they attempt to rely solely on local, seasonal plants.

Quick reminder to any vegans in this thread that if they are also pro-choice they are the biggest joke on the planet

>>17159287
You do know that OP author is a famous nazi?
>white people have a genetic predisposition for veganism by reimagining a prehistoric past where Aryans were farmers who ate grains and vegetables, as opposed to the herding and meat-eating Jewish peoples.

>>17159310
Based if true

>>17159274
Same, but I like the creatures of this earth so I think the favor repays itself in that case. Enabling unnecessary torture and death of animals feels horrible to me as they are completely enslaved to their instincts. If I do not have mercy as a higher being who is capable of choices on and entirely ethical basis, nobody will. Nature won't for sure.

>>17157299
Retarded attempt to insert logic into a morality problem; where logic doesn’t matter. Most people could simply answer “Humans matter and not animals because humans are humans” and there’s not really any avenue left for the vegan fag.

>>17159305
A vegan would want others to be vegan, indicating a dissonance of personal responsibility. I don’t. I hunt my meat and don’t give a fuck what anybody else eats.

>>17157418
>It is needless because we don't NEED to do it
Doesn’t matter if we need to do it or not. Animals are tasty so I eat them

>>17159269
Jesus, how are you not understanding this. Am I being bated?

Lets put it this way, if a room has a table with X and a table with Y, and you eat X, you have needlessly eaten X, because Y was also an option. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE. My point is that eating meat is NEEDLESS. As the original post I replied to said animals aren't NEEDLESSLY killed because they are eaten. The example is to show that it is needless as there is other option. Is English not your first language?

>>17158282
Yeah I see what you mean, just saying it online is cringy as fuck

>>17159309
Nah way too long for a cringe rant. Brevity is a sign of high IQ and good verbal skills

>>17159287
If eating meat increases your testosterone a significant amount you should probably go on HRT because your test levels must be very low.

>>17159350
>IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE OPTIONS ARE
And that’s where you are wrong vegan brainlet

>>17158855
There literally isnt with a materialist view of the world. All 'thinking' and 'feeling' come out to be are heuristics for processing information and translating into action. Plants do all of these things, they are active agents in their environment that grow and change in response to stimuli.

Veganism is a contradiction and draws an emotional line in the sand at plants. There is literally no ethical consumption under their hardline approach. "minimizing harm" is what most come up with when confronted with this reasoning (if they dont flip the table, so to speak)

Which I agree with. I agree with ethical consumption of meat. I live in the midwest, I buy from a local butcher, who gets local animals. I know the guy (one of) who sells cattle to that butcher. Not super well, but his cows live great lives and taste great.

If one cant consume meat that ethically, and "theres no difference between humans and animals" (which I agree with) then you better be out putting cheetahs on vegan diets.

>>17159327
>Same, but I like the creatures of this earth so I think the favor repays itself in that case

Their biological adaptations and behaviors are certainly interesting, but I don’t give a shit about them as individual entities unless it’s a pet I keep myself.

>>17159347
Attacking someone in the street who is a lot smaller and weaker than you probably feels really good and boosts your confidence a lot, it doesn't mean it's morally right to do it.

Enjoying something doesn't stop it being unethical.

>>17159336
>I hunt my meat
Only the most brainlet vegans would give you shit for hunting. It's probably the least harmful form of meat consumption there is

>>17159370
>All ... 'feeling' come out to be are heuristics for processing information and translating into action.
Not him but this feels like you're conflating consciousness and its contents. Processing information happens inside your consciousness, but the fact there is an inner self to experience this processing is the feeling part. Being simply active isn't the same thing.

>>17159267
I find it bizarre when they seethe because someone isn't willing to promote veganism as the "healthy" alternative. I mean, I'd be okay with that if the majority of them didn't eat processed junk and didn't fall for pseudo-scientific shit

>>17159274
You're missing the point. The thing is that you shouldn't expect anyone to repay you for helping them or defending their interests. Capitalism is a mental illness

>>17159371
I'm gonna be honest, you seem retarded

Rates of bowel cancer, diabetes and heart disease are higher than ever because the Western world eats more meat than humans ever have and they don't do enough exercise.

You can either be fat and dying or a vegan olympic lifter. Which way Western Man?

>>17159373
>Attacking someone in the street who is a lot smaller and weaker than you probably feels really good and boosts your confidence a lot, it doesn't mean it's morally right to do it.

Morality is just opinion, so what’s your point?

>>17159350
People eat meat because it tastes good and is healthy, because it contains lots of good protein and vitamins. Your option argument is retarded and makes me think you are some kind of retard communist that hasn’t understand basic markets

I eat meat but I want to become vegetarian. Being vegan is a bit too much for me for health concerns and because it's much harder to get enough protein for doing the physical activities I want to do without bloating up. Maybe a good vegan diet is doable, but I am not experienced enough to do it. Vegetarian should be easy enough though.

There is no moral justification for eating meat coming from modern animal farming. Some ethical farming and shit maybe, but modern animal farming techniques are just unjustifiable in any way but egoistic disregard for other life.

>>17159399
It's not just the meat that's doing this

>>17159322
Why? I think the benefits of abortion outweigh the suffering the fetus has to go through, while the benefits of eating meat, at least the way we do it today, does not outweigh the suffering the animal has to go through.

>>17159350
You haven't demonstrated why it's important why we only do the absolutely necessary.

>>17159391
>You're missing the point. The thing is that you shouldn't expect anyone to repay you for helping them or defending their interests.
Why not?

>>17159380
Vegans are pretty much in agreement that hunting is leaps and bounds better than factory farming meat, as the animals are killed quicker, lives longer and the meat goes further. However it still isn't as ethical as not eating meat at all, as you are still killing a sentient, thinking creature that wants to live. I'm also not sure about how widespread hunting could be in the industrialised world.

>>17159418
>Why? I think the benefits of abortion outweigh the suffering the fetus has to go through

The benefits of killing you in your sleep outweigh the suffering you’ll go through if you keep living, yes?

> does not outweigh the suffering the animal has to go through.

Why does the stupid cow’s suffering have any relevance whatsoever?

>>17157271
>Because Cow and pigs are sentient beings who feel pain
Why do people use these two arguments?
Would it be ok to kill a person who doesn't feel pain?
Would it be ok to kill a person who is not sentient?
Protip: it's a big fucking "no" for both of these. Why should it be any different with other animals (or any other creature)?

>>17159398
cognitive dissonance makes people sound like retards every time this subject is brought up
at some point they just abandon all pretense of debate and go "hurrr I like burgers whatcha gonna dooo??" which is unironically fine to me since all I want to prove is that human beings have no empathy by choice and thus deserve none

>>17159423
>Vegans are pretty much in agreement that hunting is leaps and bounds better than factory farming meat
They aren’t and you vegans show with your arguments that you don’t stand behind them. Just like the flag in the wind because you know how retarded your solutions are

>>17159414
>There is no moral justification for eating meat coming from modern animal farming

Animals taste good. Justified.

>>17159433
>Would it be ok to kill a person who is not sentient?
Yes. We do that commonly to people in vegetative state.

>>17159427
>The benefits of killing you in your sleep outweigh the suffering you’ll go through if you keep living, yes?
No.
>Why does the stupid cow’s suffering have any relevance whatsoever?
Because I don’t want it to suffer.

>>17159436
>Vegan wants to kill people for eating meat

Every time

>>17159436
Let me guess, you think an animals live is as much if not more worth than a humans. Vegans like you have shit moralities

>>17159423
yeah but as things stand right now there are way higher priorities like factory farmed meat
some hunting at least would always be necessary even if men were to subsist on agriculture alone, to prevent infestations of pests like rabbits, etc. this is just reality.

>>17159387
I actually agree, somewhat. There are two methods I used to debunk that BS vegan talking point, and thats part of the other. I generally just go at it from the hard materialist standpoint because its easier and takes less explaining.

My less materialist 'humans are special' angle is basically that humans, and certain animals, possess a certain, GENERALIZED (important!), expansion of self-as-entity through the time dimension that is simultaneously reflected and held in the social space. 'Animals' do not have this. Corvids and cetaceans come damn close, dogs a little less so.

>>17159433
>Why should it be any different with other animals

Oh, that’s simple.
They’re not humans.

>>17159442
That's not a moral justification

>>17155541
>Indian larping as a white person
What kind of cognitive dissonance is this?

>>17159463
I see and I'd probably agree.

>>17159452
>>17159453
No I hate people for being disgusting hypocrites, for being pathological liars, for having no ethics, and for a million other things. The meat stuff is only part of why. But yes I value a dog more than a hundred human beings. Fuck you. And I'm not even vegan.

>>17159423
>as you are still killing a sentient, thinking creature that wants to live.

So what?

>>17159450
You are talking about person who has lost his sentience without which he's not able to exist.
I'm talking about a figurative human being who is not sentient, but is completely "functional" and healthy.
>>17159467
What's the difference? We're animals as well.

>>17159408
>Tastes good
Doesn't make it ethical

>It's healthy
Meat eaters have much higher rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity and all cause mortality than vegans and Vegetarians. I can guarentee you have never read a single book or paper on nutrition.

>that hasn’t understand basic markets
The only reason meat and diary are profitable or able to be eaten by so many people is because it gets gigantic subsidies from the government. Plant based foods are cheaper to grow per calorie than meat, and use way less water and land.

>>17159476
>But yes I value a dog more than a hundred human beings

Stereotypical Reddit soiboy take

>>17159406
My point is you are a total retard and shouldn't try to engage in rational discussion.

>>17159476
Yeah but can that dog suck your dick?

>>17159483
>not sentient, but is completely "functional" and healthy.
If you care, could you illustrate a little more? If you don't, it's alright, this thread is a clusterfuck.

>>17159485
>It's healthy
>Meat eaters have much higher rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity and all cause mortality than vegans and Vegetarians. I can guarentee you have never read a single book or paper on nutrition.
Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years. We seemed to survive pretty ok with such diet.
If you are going to use the "not eating meat is more healthy" argument, you're going to need at least hundreds of years and thousands of recorded cases for it to be valid, not some cherry-picked research conducted by retards with no knowledge of how to use the collected data (and how to collect it in the first place).

>>17159483
>What's the difference?

We’re a different species. To make it really simple for your tiny brain, humans are the in-group, non-human animals are the out-group.

>>17159483
>I'm talking about a figurative human being who is not sentient, but is completely "functional" and healthy.
So you're talking about something that doesn't exist

>>17159440
Obviously vegans don't stand behind hunters because they don't agree with what they're doing, that doesn't mean they prefer it to industrial torture and killing of animals

>>17159478
So it isn't ethical, and being culturally indoctrinated to think it is, is not an argument

>>17159473
>>17159463
Also forgot a key point: the Self can be phased with the reflections of others such that any one Self can consider itself as an imperfect (but close) representation of another agent. This distribution and modularity of human consciousness is unique. This is part of what the closer animals miss, but have glimpses of with displays of empathy.

>>17159476
You have shit moralities that is all

>>17159485
>much higher rates of cancer...
Wait, the general population is more prone to sicknesses than people on strict diets? No way...
I can guarantee you've ever only read headlines about epidemiological surveys.

>>17159420
>Why not?
Are you pretending to be dense or do you not realise the implications of that sort of behaviour?

>>17159322
Anyone with a functioning brain is against abortion. It is a phenomenon that should be minimised by promoting contraception and responsible behaviour

>>17159423
Hunting has many negative forms. People will do it for fun, during close season (poaching), etc, defeating the very purpose of the act of hunting

>>17159497
>ur retard!

That isn’t an argument. What is your point? People have different opinions on what’s moral, and it’s basically impossible to prove any claim is “right” in that sense

>>17159524
Nothing is ethical, there has never been a single ethical person

>>17159468
Sure it is.
Animals taste good.
Good tastes are a good thing.
Therefore, it is good to taste animals, since they taste good.

>>17159485
Name one tribe that lives from nature that doesn’t eat meat you ape. Meat eaters also smoke, drink alcohol and are less health conscious in general, but that doesn’t mean meat is bad. Our colons are short and developed for consuming animal fat

>>17159536
>People have different opinions on what’s moral, and it’s basically impossible to prove any claim is “right” in that sense
Not him, but it doesn't follow. People also have different opinions on how the human species came to be around, but that shit is easy to prove if one just pulls their head out of the ground.

>>17159535
The purpose of hunting is to get meat, leather, and furs

>>17159535
>Are you pretending to be dense or do you not realise the implications of that sort of behaviour?

What is the implication?

Why are vegans chimping out so easily? Meat eaters answer calmly whereas vegans caps lock their shit and begin insult right away. Are we meat eaters right after all?

>>17159543
You can and should try to be more ethical.

I tried a vegetarian diet.
I tried the carnivore diet.
The latter worked much better EZ.

I eat meat because it's good for me. Yall can speculate with epidemiological studies, but I've tried both and it's clear to me.

>>17159535
>Hunting has many negative forms. People will do it for fun

Most hunters do it for fun. Humans are predators and predators enjoy killing things. Don’t see any reason to feel bad about that. That’d be silly.

>>17159490
the most stereotypical basedboy take is to peg people into boxes to cope like an idiot NPC

>>17159548
We aren't tribes living from nature. There is also lots of evidence that ancient man got the majority of his calories from plants, fruits, seeds and nuts, and meat was more occasional as it was riskier and more difficult to get.

>>17159570
>You can and should try to be more ethical

What is “ethical” is opinion.

>>17159535
Vegan, schizo and anti-abortion. Have you ever had a single original thought in your life? You sound irrational as fuck, so post body

my ex who didn't eat meat for "ethical reasons" was also one of the worst human beings I knew, something I realized a little too late
yes, anecdotal evidence, but one that gives me the idea that most people who don't eat meat because of MUH ETHICS do so while severely breaching ethics in other areas of human life

Just want to mention that I’m happy that the vegan subreddit is growing so fast :) we’ll be the majority in no time

>>17159583
What is ethical is an inference from societal values. Societal values are facts in and of themselves.

>>17159585
They would still be even more unethical if they ate meat.

>>17159553
>People also have different opinions on how the human species came to be around, but that shit is easy to prove if one just pulls their head out of the ground.

Sure, but only because that topic can actually be investigated with empiricism.

Can morality?
Nope.

>>17159329
>a morality problem; where logic doesn’t matter

does anyone on this board actually read philosophy?

>>17159594
But if the society is by and large omnivorous then how is veganism a sound inference?

>>17159581
>evidence that ancient man got the majority of his calories from plants, fruits, seeds and nuts
That’s completely wrong and our colons prove that we are a lot of fatty meat. Plant eaters have long colons without exception and meat eaters short ones. Big brains also develop with high amounts of omega 3 oils from fish and not nuts due to worse bio availability

>>17159578
I bet most of the meat eaters in this thread look down upon the Chinese for eating dogs, yet don't bat an eye at eating pigs, which are just as intelligent. The only thing that's different is culture.

>>17159594
>What is ethical is an inference from societal values

I don’t care about societal values and do my own thing.

>>17159190
>Other people do bad things so fuck it
>What are principles
You are either the most pathetic apathetic person to exist or are intellectually dishonest.

>>17159591
>the vegans want to lower testosterone of white men even further
Still gonna eat meat

>>17159600
>Sure, but only because that topic can actually be investigated with empiricism.
Not if one keeps his head in the ground. Insisting morality is subjective is equivalent to sticking your head in the ground.

>>17159585
>vegan
>dates schizoids out of pity
idk man she sounds pretty nice

>>17159607
>Big brains also develop with high amounts of omega 3 oils from fish and not nuts due to worse bio availability

This is absolutely not proven.

>>17159601
>does anyone on this board actually read philosophy?

Yes, I do, and one of my favorite philosophers is David Hume.

In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remarked, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary way of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when of a sudden I am surprised to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is, however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, 'tis necessary that it should be observed and explained; and at the same time that a reason should be given, for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it. But as authors do not commonly use this precaution, I shall presume to recommend it to the readers; and am persuaded, that this small attention would subvert all the vulgar systems of morality, and let us see, that the distinction of vice and virtue is not founded merely on the relations of objects, nor is perceived by reason.

>>17159612
You verifiably don't. You were raised by the societal norms and you conform to society every single day of your life.

>>17159546
I'm sure you don't believe this, or you also slice rape, killing and doing whatever the fuck you want like stealing and all are all moral actions because they feel good.

>>17159623
>Not if one keeps his head in the ground. Insisting morality is subjective is equivalent to sticking your head in the ground.

What evidence do you have that morality exists independent of observers?

>>17159622
what hormones are in cow’s milk?

>>17159632
It absolutely is and mammals eating more fish have bigger brains. Nuts can’t be digested that well, the same with other plants.

>>17159622
Vegans have higher testosterone on average if I’m not mistaken

>>17159596
And yet it would not matter, because the domain of ethics concerns human interactions first and foremost, which is obvious to anyone who actually interacts with people.

>>17159622
Tons of black people veggies. I'm not sure why, I think it's a rasta thing because it's usually Jamaicans who I meet who are veggie.

Anyway, being veggie doesn't increase your estrogen. You can eat as much onions as you want, theres no evidence it results in lower test or higher estrogen in men. Me and my friend have both lifted for years, I went veggie and him vegan and neither of us saw losses in strength or gains.

>>17159646
I only drink bio milk in moderation so there is no harm. People massively overstate that shit about hormones, when it’s all about how much you consume

>>17159644
The same evidence I have that when a tree falls with nothing to register the fall, it still makes a sound.
Again, if you just keep your head in the ground, you'll successfully negate all of it.

>>17159638
I think rape is bad because the emotional displeasure the act incites in my head is estimated to be greater than the physical pleasure it could give me, not to mention the practical reality that I’d probably get caught and experience dramatically reduced wellbeing due to the legal consequences.
I do love taking down a deer, though. That’s definitely pleasurable.

>>17159622
Know what's proven to lower testosterone? Not eating enough fibre

>>17159636
>You verifiably don't. You were raised by the societal norms and you conform to society every single day of your life.

To a degree, but I also reject them and absorb beliefs and practices from societies that no longer exist or I don’t have direct contact with.

>>17159662
You are basing your argument on anecdotal evidence which is complete bullshit. Being vegan might not hurt you short term, but did you ever consider years and decades?

>>17159675
Sure, we are then getting into the semantics of morality vs ethics.

>>17159243
>>17157507
Read the post properly. Incidentally the people who make these 'im a big tough guy so I eats da meats' almost never hunt/kill Thier own food and get Thier meat exclusively from Walmart. Also anybody who did display the levels of psychosis you larpers pretend to possess would be alienated by 95 percent of society.

>>17159665
>The same evidence I have that when a tree falls with nothing to register the fall, it still makes a sound

Arguable. The tree would definitely still cause vibrations in the air, but there wouldn’t actually be any auditory qualia experienced from the event.
Prove that moral facts exist, please. Solve the is-ought problem.

this thread is overflowing with ideology

>>17159674
You are confusing causality and correlation. People who eat less fiber also eat more bad food, move less and smoke more. Doesn’t mean fiber is the reason for it. Fiber gets converted to fat in your colon but doesn’t raise testosterone

>>17159690
I only hunt, because I think animal agriculture is unjust. Better to kill and die wild and free, like our ancestors.

>>17159666
Why does rape give you emotional displeasure?

>>17159697
Vetards have no empathy for human lives, that’s their problem. I can’t take someone seriously that is alright with people being killed but gets triggered when a pig does

>>17159686
If I have been veggie for 3 years and haven't experienced any strength or muscle loss, how is doing it for another 3 or 6 years going to make a difference? I eat enough protien, calcium, magnesium, everything I need. My testoserone is fine.

I also drink milk, and occasionally eat cheese, so I'm not full vegan.

>>17159690
yeah, it’s funny - in any discussion of veganism meat-eaters always assert that they only buy ethically sourced meat and eggs from local farms or hunt their own meat, yet statistics indicate that over 90% of animal products that people consume come from factory farms. why the discrepancy, i wonder

>>17159615
No, thats not my point. My point is that morals are clearly not set in stone, if a certain percentage of the population is capable of doing it without remorse or guilt

>>17159714
Mirror neurons in my brain cause me to experience emotional states that other humans appear to be experiencing. If I particularly hated someone, I’d probably be willing to rape them if I think I could get away with it, since I generally want to hurt and harm people I hate.

>>17159718
Again, anecdotal evidence but this time with no pictures that show your body. How can any meat eater take you seriously if you claim things without any proof?

>>17159717
no it’s the meat eaters who are steeped in ideology

>>17155541
Personally I do not believe in transporting foods great distances, there is nothing good about it and it enables cities to become parasites on society which produce the least but consume the most. millions of middle men who validate their existence but complicating things to such an extreme that everyone else just says fine, we will support you, just please shut up. But they don't they never shutup, they just explain why it is not their fault.

My climate somewhat limits my options, growing a years food is sort of putting all of ones eggs in one basket, so I hunt and fish and forage to offset that.

>>17159216
Its not if you look at life from a biological stand point, and philosophies and morals as the extending metaphysical arm of this blueprint

>>17159738
>no u

>>17159734
Did you experience sexual abuse as a child? Your asocial thoughts clearly show that you know that sexual dominance hurts human beings

>>17159749
the nature of ideology is that it blinkers one to reality, the carnists itt are so deeply enmeshed in their ideology that to them it appears perfectly natural

>>17159736
Anon, I'm not going to physique post on /lit/. I can tell you my lifts but that's all you're going to get.

>>17159717
>Vetards have no empathy for human lives, that’s their problem.
Maybe because all it takes is a tiny change in diet to reveal how fucking disgusting and vicious and hypocritical and prone to lying and unempathetic and stupid people are?

>>17159738
I creampied my gf and semen costs lots of zinc. I eat meat and don’t give a shit about what you eat, but you vegans always suck your dick about how good and morally sound you are while pushing your outdated ideologies on harmless bystanders

>>17159764
based

>>17159581
>There is also lots of evidence that ancient man got the majority of his calories from plants, fruits, seeds and nuts
This is highly implausible on its face. Drop a couple of people in some untouched wilderness and tell them to eat only plants. They will either die short term from poisoning, mid term from lack of energy due to the low caloric density of noncultured plants, or longer term from malnutrition due to poor bioavailability and variety. Vegans today routinely wreck their health if they don't pay close attention to their micros, and that is with all artificial selection we imposed on food crops for centuries in order to make them more fit for human consumption.

Animal flesh, in contrast, has everything our bodies need because it is pretty much identical to what we are made of in the first place. You have to be very ideologically blinded to disregard this reality.

>>17159773
vegans simply are morally superior. why does this upset you so much?

>>17159751
>Did you experience sexual abuse as a child?

No.

>Your asocial thoughts clearly show that you know that sexual dominance hurts human beings

That’s easy to learn via osmosis. Being raped is regarded as humiliating and demeaning and degrading, and those are exactly the sort of things I want people I hate to experience. Don’t you agree?

>>17159762
That also means your argument is completely useless and doesn’t prove anything about the connection of being vegan. Sure, you could have high testosterone levels while being vegan, but how does it look like further down the road with leaky gut syndrome? I tried living on high fiber plants and all I got was blood in the stool and constipation. My stomach gurgled all the time and I felt like shit

>>17159784
>ackthually morality is fact and the factual morality is the one i happen to believe in

>>17159805
correct

>>17159764
You are hating humans and love animals, but meat eaters love humans and are indifferent to animals. Just because a human being lies and doesn’t behave like you want to, doesn’t make him worse than an animal. And you don’t make any mistakes at all and are perfectly fine without any flaws? You are a hypocrite

>>17159761
How are people who eat meat “enmeshed in ideology”?
Seems kinda like you’re trying to make something innocuous like diet into a bigger issue than it is. Humans are animals, humans eat other animals because they’re edible, and taste good. Don’t see why there’s anything more to it than that.

>>17159783
Anon, you are equating the natural world of today with the one of 60,000 years ago. There were thousands of edible, wild plants in nature back then, with abudnant wild fruits, nuts and crops, all of which grew from rich soil. Very different from the monocultured factory grew apples we eat now.

Also regarding poisoning - tribes people very rarely fall ill from eating incorrect foods as knoweldge of what can and can't be eaten is passed down, strange comment to make.

>>17159784
If sucking your own dick is moral superiority I am inferior. Sucking your own dick feels more like sucking rather than being sucked. Think about it

>>17159814
Nice ego.
Morality is relative, not objective, so you can’t justify your claim of being “morally superior”.

>>17159801
I'm vegitearian not vegan, and my point was you can be strong and athletic while not eating meat. Now you're posting anecdotal evidence. There are millions of people who don't eat meat and feel totally fine, living healthy and active lives and have for decades.

>>17159761
>carnists itt are so deeply enmeshed in their ideology
Meat eaters don’t have a common ideology. We just eat meat because we don’t want to be manlets and it tastes really good. You vegans identify with other vegans and are loud over it. Sounds pretty much like an ideology

meat eaters once again confirmed for lazy immature hedonistic moral relativists. sad to see the same situation play out over and over again, but it is what it is

>>17159860
>moral relativism bad

What’s your solution to the is-ought problem?

Just be vegan and mix up 14 different nuts every day to get a complete protein profile, it's so easy bro.

>>17159851
>We just eat meat because we don’t want to be manlets and it tastes really good.
this is ideology

>>17159845
Then don’t eat meat, but stop forcing your flawed ideology on innocent bystanders. Let people do what they want even if it’s bad for them and find better solutions. Reversing millions of years of adaption to eating meat in a few decades could have devastating health consequences

>>17159819
>Just because a human being lies and doesn’t behave like you want to, doesn’t make him worse than an animal.
The human being deliberately chooses to lie to me. He deliberately chooses to bring up a God he doesn't believe in to give authority to his argument if he's sitting at a table he knows other Christians are sitting at. This is absolutely fucking pathetic. Animals are infinitely nobler than people despite being inferior in intellect as they are incapable of the choice that evil stems from, and the vast majority of people will do this without fail. This is why I grew disgusted with mankind.

I love Vegans, more meat for me

>>17159874
rejecting empiricism

>>17159880
You have an incredibly broad and vague definition of ideology.
“I did this because I like it” is an ideology apparently.

>>17159860
And you are indifferent between a humans and an animals life. If that isn’t pure moral relativism I don’t know what is. Is this toxoplasmosis at work that tries to agitate your fellow humans?

>>17159877
Vegans love to swallow nuts. Who knew?

>>17159893
>reject all knowledge aside from the sole fact that your consciousness exists to some extent

Brilliant!
How are you gonna determine “moral truths” without empiricism?

>>17159880
It’s not because I don’t have cult meetings about my diet like you. I also don’t follow any „experts“ and try to push my ideology on others

>>17159882
i like to rape babies. don’t tell me this is immoral btw, because that means you’re inflicting your opinion on me, an innocent bystander. i’m going to continue to rape babies and you can’t tell me to stop, because the action of raping babies of course only involves the one person committing the act

>>17159877
ur mom has no problem getting those daily dozen nuts lmao

>>17159370
>The 'What about plants hmmmmm?' argument
Pain and fear are evolved responses to stimuli. These responses are meant to trigger immediate defensive action, hence why they are so intense. Plants can't do shit but sit there and take damage before trying to recover, it's unreasonable to assume they have any kind of fear and pain response approaching mobile lifeforms. This is also completely ignoring the fact that plant based food stuff are almost always the offspring of plants (fruits, nuts tubers ect.) To say these things feel pain is to say an egg is screaming in agony when it's boiled.

>>17159913
Animals aren’t people

>>17159889
You think it’s bad because you think you are always right in every sensible way. People that think of them as flawless are the worst hypocrites

>>17159921
>Plants can't do shit but sit there and take damage before trying to recover, it's unreasonable to assume they have any kind of fear and pain response approaching mobile lifeforms.

There’s a lot of research showing plants have pretty sophisticated responses to danger.

>>17159913
You show again how you value a humans life compared to an animal ones. I think we solved vegan motivation

>>17159925
>>17159937
Comparisons are not equations

>>17159971
And animals aren’t people; so they are worthless.

>>17159933
Broccoli kills smaller insects with their toxins

>>17159971
You equated by comparing violence on humans as bad as violence on animals as equal.

>>17159927
I am not flawless but I am better for trying. And in my trying I have proved myself more than enough compared to one hundred percent of the people I have met in my life in this shitty environment I live in, You are just asshurt at the thought that there are people with any ethics around, so you are appealing to the idea that I am secretly evil and disgusting therefore wrong.
Well even if I were a shitty person, that wouldn't change my argument. People deliberately choose to act in immoral ways, to the detriment of others, knowing exactly what they are doing, and they do it without fail. They are two-faced demons who consciously cheat and lie and use others, and twist the truth, or appeal to fallacies they know are fallacies for the sake of not admitting they are wrong. Animals do not have this higher layer of reasoning and therefore I cannot hold them on the same level of a human being who does the horrible shit that people do.
Human beings are only capable of using their higher layer of consciousness to do more evil. They're demons.