/lit/ - Literature

>>17148318
Based slayer of western civilization

>>17148318
Orientalism aesthetics are based, fuck these pencil dick losers who want to shit on art forms because they are le racist

>>17148318
>>17148333
It's incredibly trite and obvious. It could have been a couple sentences, no need for a book.

>>17148318
Why did Edward. W. said that?

muhhh palesternnn. nuuuuuh. muhhh palensterrrrn. youu can't doooo thisssss

Isn't he responsible for the 'decolonise xyz' faggotry

All racists should be forced to read it.

idk why it was so egregious that some western novelists held romantic views of the east, what they envisioned was infinitely more appealing than the filthy, diseased latrine much of it truly is

>>17148361
Yes if we focus more on race, then we will be liberated.

If you're going to be a relenteless shill for neoliberalism at least own it and stop posturing as a class liberator.

Cuck.

>>17148338
Yeah ffs we're making your shitty brutal culture seem beautiful for a moment excuse us. The real detriment if anything is that the west of the 18th-19th century set a precedent by which to view the east as exotic and appealing which in turn let us open the door to their actual pigsty barbarity. The west are the victims of Orientalism.

>Edward Said’s main contention is that “no production of knowledge in the human sciences can ever ignore or disclaim the author’s involvement as a human subject in his own circumstances.” Translated into plain English, this would seem to mean simply that no scholar can escape his original condition: his own national, cultural, political and social prejudices are bound to be reflected in his work. Such a common-sense statement hardly warrants debate. Actually Said’s own book is an excellent case it point: Orientalism could obviously have been written by no one but a Palestinian scholar with a huge chip on his shoulder and a very dim understanding of the European academic tradition (here perceived through the distorted prism of a certain type of American university, with its brutish hyper-specialization, non-humanistic approach, and close, unhealthy links with government.

>>17148361
Forcing people to do things usually doesn't make them drop their views, just say you want to kill them and stop pussy footing.

>>17148338
the book isn't about orientalist art, of course no one read it

>>17148318
Fuck said. He accused Paul Bowles of being an “orientalist” which is enough to prove to me that he was a negative influence on culture and thought

>>17148364
See, you don’t get it at all.
It’s not just that it’s adventure land and exotic, it’s that it was sued as an advertisement for colonialist exploitation and THAT is why they became and remain “filthy”. You’re head is a diseased latrine of western supremacy

>>17148371
Opposing colonialism isn’t supporting neocolonialism and the neoliberals that push it

>>17148387
No, they deserve to be tortured with a book assignment. They should also write a report on it so we can see how they’re coming along.

it's not that good. culture and imperialism is better

also lol at all the yt trash itt getting mad

>>17148400
>USED as an advertisement
>YOUR head is
Heh

>>17148400
>Opposing colonialism isn’t supporting neocolonialism and the neoliberals that push it
It 100% is. Just because you're braindead doesn't change reality.

>>17148400
Yeah I'm sure it was all great fine and dandy before those filthy westerners came along.

>>17148421
Weak and obviously false.
I’m not even a proponent of China’s involvement in Africa. It seems the more benign, but it’s capitalist colonialism with Chinese characters

>>17148427
Under the Ottoman Empire? Ha! Fuck that.

the most interesting part of that book is the literary theory aspect about how people write about themselves and others, not the second half that is just whining about politics and political personalities that have already mostly passed into irrelevance. also for the chuds that bitch about said, if you like nietzsche, then you should know said, like foucault, is a descendant of nietzsche and employs his geneological method to understand knowledge production, the anti-colonial whining is just to stir enough controversy to get invited to charlie rose

i don't want to colonize the orient, i just want to smoke opium with painted courtesans with golden ankle bracelets and black inscrutable eyes

>>17148432
You believe it seems more benign because you're viewing exploitation through your puerile racial lens. Thanks for proving the point, fucker.

this shit is related and underrated

>>17148462
it seems more benign because it is

>>17148481
Uh huh. Show me a white country where you'd offer the same compliment.

>>17148462
>puerile racial lens
No, I’m barely paying attention to it and have seen too little. I hear their policy is more hands off politics, they’re not installing puppet governments (I suppose) just building infrastructure projects. Something the Westerners would only do for themselves.

>>17148502
Iceland is pretty nice

>>17148463
>>17148481
Nice recs guys, thanks

you mean an ivory tower academic views a foreign power with rose tinted glasses, that's certainly a first

>>17148524
Hi, I'm not sure if you saw my proposal the other day. >>17135685

>>17148512
Well then you clearly are not very well-read on this subject or are consuming propaganda. Not interested in discussing it further. I don't care if the Chinese colonize blacks either way.

The point is this: There is literally ZERO reason to insert a racial component into the issue, except to provide cover to neoliberals. There is not one good reason. Once again, your posts prove it. Chinese atrocities aside, the mere fact that you are willing to engage in a schema of "Chinese colonialism vs White colonialism" allows for the justification of neocolonialism in itself. The fact that you can't see this is why I have the vast credentials I do whereas you have some stupid butterfly that I invented first.

>>17148318
I met Edward Said, he told me he hated gypsies but for me he would do an exception. I don't know why he said that since I'm Danish.

>>17149092
The point is that I’m in no way pro liberal/neoliberal/colonialism. Yes of course there’s a component of racism to international exploitation. Often enough not, because it’s main driver is economic dominance by elites. UK and US elites are shits to their own people. Truly they don’t see race. But this doesn’t erase the racism. I understand your concerns, I just think you overstate it.

>>17149102
He died in 2003, so you must be quite old, or a lier.

>>17149204
I'm a liar, well spotted.

>>17149153
I'm not overstating it. The fact that you're not "pro" neoliberal doesn't mean you aren't adopting ideologies that serve them. The idpol nonsense is the perfect case in point. Unfortunately you're too ignorantly partisan to concede this fact even as you acknowledge its insufficiency as an explanatory factor. Neoliberals were the ones who invented racism and the ones to decry it via antiracism. There is no aspect of colonialism that couldn't be described in purely economic/class contexts, and to do otherwise only muddies the waters and allows other avenues of "nonracist" exploitation.

Like I said go ahead and do it, just know what you are.

>>17149236
Oops needed to correct an issue with my name

>>17148318
VERY ghey

Taught in university courses which should instantly disqualify it from serious discussions

>>17149236
I not only acknowledge the class war as the main antagonism but prioritize it. To ignore the racial component does more to aid their distraction campaigns, IDpol, cop riots, woke capitalism etc.
like, I’m not going to invite antisemites into my revolutionary circles just because they’re anti-liberal/establishment. They’d try to kill the jews on my side. They’re rightwing IDpol. You’re aiding that.

>>17149280
I guess that's a no, well ignore the mean stuff people in here say about your looks, you are very pretty. Bye.

>>17149280
>godwinning out of need to cope this hard
Sorry you're a total retard it turns out. The reasons you're obviously wrong are

1) Anti-semitism IS idpol
2) Ignoring neoliberal spooks and killing jews are not a dichotomy in any actual reality
3) You're literally acting hysterical over a creation of your mind
4) Right wing extremism is a neoliberal spook anyway
5) You don't have any "revolutionary circles" to invite anyone to in the first place dumb larper

You made a really embarrassing post but I'll forgive you if you admit you're wrong and apologize. Otherwise I'm putting you on my shitposter list.

>>17149280
>They’d try to kill the jews on my side.
Are you fucking serious?

>They’re rightwing IDpol.
And this is a reason for more of the same?

Complete fucking idiot. Damn this is actually making me want to distance myself from anything left leaning as hard as possible. But hey enjoy that "revolution" lol

>>17149306
Seriously? I’m not the marrying sort and a lesbian anyway. Glad you like me, but don’t get your heart burnt over me. I’m too old at any rate.

>>17149317
>1)
That’s what I just said
>2), 4)
Bullshit. You’ve just unveiled yourself here.
>3)
I’m not. You’re projecting.
>5)
Irrelevant

>>17149336
A hypothetical scenario. Say a racist cop joins the revolution. How trustworthy is he fighting alongside blacks etc.? You ever hear of “friendly fire”?
> for more of the same?
Not more of the same. Proper and thoughtful context. Racism is a real issue and a real obstacle to addressing the evils of state-capitalism. You’re a rightwing IDpoller, aren’t you?

>>17149380
the fact that the guy says "white imperialism" instead of european or western imperialism already revealed he's a chud and probably ugly

>>17149380
>You’ve just unveiled yourself here.
I won't tolerate malicious slander because you were called out as a neoliberal tool, but I'm glad you exposed yourself as a useful idiot. It's interesting how your defense mechanisms immediately regress to the contemporary equivalent of shouting WITCH to the local Puritan parson when called out. Tells me everything I need to know about where your loyalties lie the moment you're challenged. You're no revolutionary. You're larping through and through, and clearly you know it too.

I won't humor you with reassurances of my own antiracist credentials because that is conceding to your neoliberal masters, but suffice to say my point still stands that you're forcing a false dichotomy in order to protect your masters. Pathetic.

>>17149380
Oh, and I'll be sure to identify you as the larping, neoliberal subservient, fake revolutionary that you are in subsequent threads. You've been exposed. But then what can we expect from someone who shitposts on 4chan all day instead of actually putting revolutionary politics into practice?

>>17148364
/thread

>>17149401
>the guy
Said?

>F. Gardener post No. 17149414
Your posts are quite transparent, but I wonder if any of it is sincere or just funtime puffery. I haven’t pushed any false dichotomy much less defended any aspect of neoliberalism.

>>17149458
See >>17148400

>>17148400
lol no

>>17149469
>I haven’t pushed any false dichotomy much less defended any aspect of neoliberalism.
Anyone can reread your posts so I'll just take this unsubstantive denial as a concession. Or maybe I'll just report you to the FBI since you discussed how your "revolution" entails the use of firearms in guerilla warfare scenarios. Some would construe that as terrorism. Shame about that trip making it easy to put this context to other posts where you've discussed the same thing.

In fact, yes, I will do this right now unless you backtrack and apologize. I'll give you 10 minutes to take it all back and apologize for implying I'm a crypto right winger. Otherwise I'm saving all your posts and laying out a case for you inciting violence and planning terrorism. Enjoy those watchlists your master Biden put together. Chud.

>>17149478
Lol yes. They were exploited. State-Capitalism exploits.

>thoughts
That threads which just ask thoughts for bait books should be banned

>>17149505
Ignore this poster. Merely a neoliberal robot who goes around and dilutes actual class discussion with neoliberal politics and calls you a nazi if you don't "repeat after me"

Orientalist art is romanticised but that’s the case with almost all art, whether it’s depicting Ancient Greece or Rome or the East. There’s nothing wrong with western artists presenting the East as they did— it’s not racist, it’s a show of respect.

A lot of responses in this thread are disgusting and racist though. The Middle East was a beautiful place, full of historic sites and monuments, before America and other Western powers destroyed it with constant war. Syria was one of the most-visited tourist destinations in the world, for instance, before the war. Turkey still is a wonderful place to visit.

>>17149535
since america never colonized anyone there's really no reason for anyone in america to be so triggered by said. one really must wonder why this fella is so sore about him. oh, well, there is one group of americans who said makes absolutely seethe.

>>17148346
Lol

>>17149536
>it’s a show of respect.
Clearly not.
A lot of nice art came of it, but quite a lot is transparent. How so many of you can’t see it is weird to those of us who can. Just look at the cover in the OP.

>>17149615
The US perfected neocolonialism. They exploit the Philippines and South American etc.

>>17149632
It’s no different than paintings depicting European cafes or towns. Literally nothing wrong with it, only in this race-obsessed age would anyone find a problem with it.

Wow so butterfly is actually a neolib that's kind of funny.

>>17148361
you are racist you want to force western secular attitudes on brown people
fuck you tranny

>>17149657
if any of you fuckups had read even the intro to the shit, you would know said clearly says he is a literature professor not an art historian or aesthetician and has nothing to say about orientalist art

>>17149679
stfu loser lmao

>>17149662
Trash samefagging

>>17149695
>everyone who calls out my bullshit is one person

>>17148361
>>17148400
>>17148409
>>17148420
>>17148432
>>17148440
>>17148512
>>17148524
>>17149071
>>17149153
>>17149280
>>17149380
>>17149505
>>17149632
>>17149695
racist tranny

>>17149679
Nevertheless, he is arguing that Orientalist art (or literature, whatever) is racist, that it depicts Eastern people as uncivilised and savage, when that is total bullshit.

>>17149706
>>17149710
Cite it or the accusation is bullshit

>>17149723
Any European depictions of non-Europeans are inherently racist as they rob the subject of the agency to depict themselves in their own light.

>>17149723
that's not what he argues either, he argued that "the east" is a social construct created by european writers

>>17149536
Oh nonsense, there was plenty of war and violence in the region before the "Age of Imperalism"

>>17149727
You literally said you oppose colonialism. That means you either support neocolonialism (and neoliberalism) or you support the subjugation of the West, which means you really shouldn't be in this conversation at all since you'd be an outsider/subversive.

>>17149727
you said that religious africans and asians should be forcibly conformed to secularistic western ideology through social pressure and education tard
fuck you racist

>>17148318
Said actually hated Islam, not sure why he acted self-righteous just because he lived with whites in NYC.

>>17149727
Calm down man. You will also never be a woman btw.

>>17149737
Now the other side from the same disingenuous trolls.
Trash thread
>>17149520
You’re absolutely right.

>>17148318
An obvious irony, which seems to have escaped the attention of some of the more fervent and over-heated critics of Orientalism, is that assault on the Western fabrication of the Orient is itself a product of the Western intellectual heritage of which they are such strident critics. In Said’s case the irony is sharpened by the fact that the ‘defense’ of the Islamic civilization is conduct by a rootless intellectual of Protestant upbringing who is quite unable to conceal his own distaste for the religion that provides the very raison d’etre of the civilization in question. Moreover, his argument is rooted in ideas and values (secular humanism, high culture) which are irredeemably Western and modernistic, and thus quite out of tune with those values that Muslims themselves hold most dear.

Fuck Edward Said!

>>17149759
It'll never be a real vagina, bro

>>17149745
>If you oppose colonialism you're either a neoliberal or a hater of the west
What the fuck are you talking about? I don't want to defend that tranny but you sound insane. European colonialism was morally disgusting, I don't think many would argue against that -- how does holding that opinion make me "support the subjugation of the West" or "neocolonialism"?

>>17149759
>I CAN'T ACTUALLY EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE WRONG SO YOU'RE A TROLL!

>>17148350
He is.

>>17149745
>you oppose imperialism therefore you are a statist!
Fuck away

>>17149746
No, I jokingly said racists should be forced to write a book report on the OP. Bullshit try.

>>17149769
I live with one. You’ll never see one in person

there is literally nothing wrong with portraying foreigners as goofy and weird, foreigners do it to us as well

>>17149772
You either support the exploitation of outsiders by overt means or covert means, or you support the exploitation of your own group by outsiders. Since you don't want to explicitly use outsiders to our own ends then logically you either want to do it in a gay covert way that only benefits the elites, ala neoliberalism, or you're a subversive or outsider yourself who wants the West to be taken advantage of.

>>17149782
Why are you so ugly bro? Damn, ugly man probs

lesbians do not exist, they are just attention whores who need to be converted back to normal like my black african brothers do back in mother africa

>>17149782
>If our exploitation of the Third World isn't over I'm le quirky anti-statist progressive!
lmao really?

>>17148361
>>17148400
>>17148409
>>17148420
>>17148432
>>17148440
>>17148512
>>17148524
>>17149071
>>17149153
>>17149280
>>17149380
>>17149505
>>17149632
>>17149695
>>17149759
>>17149782
stfu racist white bitch

>>17149767
said actually aids the project of neoliberalism by dissolving one of the major cultural divides in the world, and i'm not even mad because neoliberal globalization increases prosperity for all and reduces chances for and scale of armed conflicts

>>17149782
what lack of dick does to a mf

>>17149792
>If you don't support what I support, you support all these unrelated bad things!
Take your meds.

>>17149831
>I can't explain why you're wrong so you're mentally ill
What kind of retard-tier logic is this

100% trolls.
Reminder. This is what anonymity does for a board.

>>17149867
>waaaahhhhh if you disagree with me you're a troll!

>>17149883
No, if all you have are bad faith arguments, strawmen and wild weird opinions no sane person would take, you’re a likely troll.
Sad if you’re being sincere.

>>17149867
you're free to go to reddit and please do

One might expect that this long history of terror, blood, and violence would lead Western students of the Ottomans to dehumanize them or turn them into diabolical caricatures of hate and tyrannical oppression. That is certainly what readers of Edward Said’s famous study, Orientalism (1978), would be led to expect, but it is one of Malcolm’s main points that such a representation is far too simple, if not entirely wrong. It does not begin to capture the complexity of Western responses to the Ottoman threat. There were certainly some Westerners, like Martin Luther, who regarded the new Islamic empire as essentially evil, the Sultan as the Devil’s servant, and Islam as a perverted religion of the sword. Such responses can be found throughout the three centuries covered by Malcolm’s book. But there were also many admiring responses both to the Ottomans and even to Islam.

https://newcriterion.com/issues/2019/11/thinking-about-the-ottoman-threat

>>17149911
Dubadubs

Wasted.

>>17149910
>I still can't explain why I'm right and you're wrong so I'll continue to whine about imaginary strawmen and trolls also have some passive-aggressive snark its definitely not coming from a place of resentment

>>17148318
Absolutely based. It balances the 'scales', so to speak, of the relationships of west- and east-earth.

never wanted butterfly banned more than after skimming this thread

>>17148380
Underrated post.

Western imperialism was a blight on the world. Asian civilization deserves more respect from the West

>>17148395
It does refer to orientalism in art, besides cultural studies.

>>17148380

Damn trannyfly is short circuiting hard in here

>>17148380
Based Simon Leys

>>17149759
Shut up you tranny subhuman
If you had kept your half paralyzed mouth shut, some retards would have posted
"You do know that Arab portrayals of medieval Europe were comically retarded and used as cultural justification for Islamic imperialism. Transforming a land that should typically be a domain of peace into one of war"
And then it would have died
End of another worthless thread
But no, you had to come in and spout the same horseshit you spam in every thread you infest with your hair riddled pseudo labia
All due respect, determine the closest window and jump

how did he say anything that Spengler hasnt already said and better at it?