/lit/ - Literature

You will never go to heaven

>>17137481
>Even if something is a lie, if it has the power to change the world, then it must contain some kind of truth.
Wrong.

>>17137686
Even if the story of Jesus Christ is a lie, it has helped the world rather than hindering it.

>>17137481
Pessimist philosopher Emil Cioran expresses this problem well in his short essay 'Faces of Decadence'. Pic related

>>17138040
your life is absurd and meaningless and there's only one way out, bucko.

>>17138059
It’s the journey that matters.

>>17137481
>waaahhh the universe is evil and meaningless death is the only truth of this world
then what's the solution bro
>idk, just starting believing in an all loving God for some reason

Think of all the “intelligent” people who laugh their asses off at that kid with a pocket Bible on him at all times telling them they’ll go to hell for watching porn but now walk around with various cloth talismans on their faces and yell at anyone who gets within 5’ 11” of them.

>>17137712
How could you possibly know that? There is no world without Christianity to use as a point of comparison

>>17138059
Your life is absurd and meaningless too, and you've only tricked yourself

>>17138123
>cloth talismans
Cringe

>>17138123
>>>/pol/

>>17138193
How about Mars?

>>17138123
You mean the people who swore up and down about how much better the world would be without God but now they complain how things are objectively worse than they used to be but offer no solutions?

>>17138204
>>17138208
And Fauci is your new Pope.

>it’s true because it’s useful
Imagine being this much of an unironic pseud

>>17138208
>>>/lgbt/

>>17138209
stupid comparison
the existence of mars doesn't practically affect our lives but the belief in Cristian God does.

>>17137712
but does it contain some kind of truth?

>>17138234
Mars definitely effects our lives.

>>17137712
>it changed the world
>therefore it must contain truth
How do you not realize how stupid this sounds

>>17138252
Not the way we view reality, or the way we act

>>17137481
>Even if something is a lie, if it has the power to change the world, then it must contain some kind of truth
This doesn't make any sense at all, you're not even attempting a logical argument. When did "truth" become synonymous or even logically linked with "power"? The very fact that the definitional opposite of "truth", "lies", in this model maintains the same "power" blatantly demonstrates that there is no inherent connection between the terms.

>>17138252
how so?

>>17138204
>you've only tricked yourself
By what standard of truth? Is truth not subjective anymore?

>>17137481

>freudian nonsense

>BROOOO WE THINK WE'RE HEROES THEN REALIZE WE SHIT THAT'S WHY WE'RE SAD ANALITY BRO

fuck off

>>17138336
>By what standard of truth? Is truth not subjective anymore?

So does he prove the non-existence of an afterlife, the soul, supernatural reality, etc? If not, then the whole thing was a totally worthless exercise.

>>17138361
Did you read the book, anon? :)

>>17138123
>>17138224
braindead

Is Denial of Death replacing Stirnerposting?

Science, atheism, and mathematics were a mistake.

>>17138396

Of course not. Who reads on this pseud board?

>>17138432
High quality repurposing

>>17138414
Religion was too and I say that as a religious person. Religion created all those systems and the political system. But the goal of religion can’t be achieved through it.

>>17138193
Throughout history most atheist forms of government lead to mass deaths and countless human rights violations. Having a civilization built around Christianity is better for mankind.
>>17138236
The story of Jesus Christ lead to various positive contributions in the modern world that everyone enjoys. These consist of
>Valuing a Civil Government
>Valuing equality among both men and women
>Valuing Education
>Valuing modern science
>Valuing free enterprise
And so much more! You wouldn’t get any of these things from brain dead atheists who simply live a selfish hedonistic lifestyle.
>>17138256
My point is that if Christianity is largely based on a lie yet still brought prosperity to humanity, then that means that telling lies can be just as useful as telling the truth. If Christianity is wrong and there is no God, then pointing out the truth would most likely only bring ruination to the world. There are times when telling lies is helpful, and there are also times when telling the truth is not helpful.

>>17138440
>10,000 years ago
How did the world start?
What the fuck kind of a question is that? A snake made someone eat an apple, now get back to scanning the treeline
>today
God is dead and I'm drone striking grade schools to prove it

>>17138362
>Answer his question, nigger

>>17137650
Is this the new "you will never become a woman"?

>>17138490
You think Judaism dates back to before civilization and domesticated humans? That's adorable.

>>17138512
Gigachad posting is gay

>>17138391
He concludes that modern civilization as we know it is the result of people attempting to immortalize themselves into eternity by performing good deeds for mankind so they could be allowed into planes of existence such as Heaven. OP is saying that this blows atheists the fuck out, because this means that a Christian worldview drives humanity forward collectively, even if God doesn’t exist.

>>17138512
He's imputing a random claim to someone who never made it. If I were to respond, I would say that the sceptic position, advanced by for instance Cicero and Sextus Empiricus, is that I don't have the requisite knowledge or proof to make any kind of positive claim about truth. Insofar as it appears to me, I don't have the materials to say anything about its nature. I cannot say either that it is subjective, or objective, or that it exists or does not exist, or that I can or cannot have any hope of accessing it. Just that, as far as I know, I do not have it.

>>17138555
This doesn't consider atheists who do good because it is right to do so.

>>17138633
>because it is right to do so
by what standard

>>17138224
>A time is coming
When
>Men will go mad
Mad how?This quote can be used by anyone.

>>17138633
Atheists wouldn’t know what is right if it weren’t for Christians though. Atheists who contribute to the western society they inhabit are simply prolonging a Christian society.

>>17137481

Stop talking about this midwit shit

>>17138684
live and let live

>>17138621
So would it be true that you don't have sufficient knowledge or proof to make a claim about truth? In any statement regarding truth, you will either explicitly or implicitly make a truth claim.

>>17138720
Yes, all I can say is that non-dogmatically, insofar as it appears to me, I have never come across a criterion for certain knowledge

Ill receive it tomorrow

>>17138712
And Christians are just repeating Mesoptamian and Egyptian cosmology, and Babylonian moral theory, yet I’ve yet to hear a single Christian thanking Shamash for handing him his moral framework.

Before demanding thankfulness, try practicing it yourself first

>>17137481
You sound like just another normie that doesn't care about truth and instead only values having a comfy life.

>>17138764
My point is that insofar as you state that it is true you acknowledge that truth exists which I don't think you can acknowledge whilst also being a materialist (assuming you are).

>>17137712
you have a dogs brain dude.

>>17137481
>but I see no reason why I shouldn’t be able to contribute to civilization even if it is all ultimately just a way to cope for our eventual deaths. Even if something is a lie, if it has the power to change the world, then it must contain some kind of truth

you are being disingenuous. he literally calls it "the vital lie" -- he did not deny that the lie is completely essential

> Despite those struggles, the quality of human life changed and the world at large was changed for the better. So it doesn’t really matter where exactly the truth ends and where the lies start, because if lies can change the world just as well as the truth can, then lies are just another way of telling the truth. Some lies are capable of changing the world for the better, and some truths can lead the world to becoming worse, so I don’t think anyone can really say without a doubt which is more right than the other when everything is said and done. What do you guys think?

Without cynicism or irony, I think the book is benefitting you. You are questioning your own causa-sui and refining the life-lie that will give your existence meaning. You seen interested in the well-being out others and civilizational progress towards something you value.

>>17138489
good=/=truth

maybe you feel believing in Santa was good, doesn't mean he was real

if this was bait, you did pretty good son

>>17138361
>>freudian nonsense
half the damn book is criticising freud and dunking on him

>>17140630
>good=/=truth
I’m not saying that is always the case retard.

As we can observe from this very thread, even the hint that one's causa-sui could be a lie provokes quite a reaction. This is a microcosm of all human conflict. The fantasies that give one man's life meaning are a life and death thing, literally. He thinks he will live on through his religion or his work. Anything that makes him examine these beliefs is felt as a mortal threat. These things cause great wars. Until we can achieve true awareness of this urge and come to terms with our insignificance, we will never escape the cycle. We are nothing now and we will be nothing when we die. You cannot change this

>>17137481
Lies are lies and truth are truth. There's no reason to conflate the two simply because both have power. Lies don't become truth just because they get results. They are still lies. The realization you need to have here is that truth is not the only source of power in the world and never will be.
>i see no reason why i shouldn't be able to contribute to civilization even it it is all ultimately just a way to cope for our eventual deaths
This kind of thinking, and all that revolves around it, is the prototypical example of the concept Just Smart Enough to Get Into Trouble.
Let me give you some life advice - any thought that leads you to both no solution(s) to a problem and also despair isn't one worth investigating, and you should never waste your time thinking about them. At a certain point, it's nothing more than self-harm.
If there's a point to it all, follow it and live your life with meaning. If there's no point to it all, what's the point in feeling despair because of it? You obviously haven't accepted that there's no point to any of it, so why are you saying that's the case? Either discover the point you're missing, or actually accept that there's no point. Regardless, stop wallowing in a glorified Victim Olympics. Don't join the pseudo-intellectuals pontificating endlessly about reason that never bother to get the fuck past the asking of questions to bother to provide an answer or simply accept that life exists without some gifted higher purpose from some transcendent function.

Like, I don't understand this kind of audacious stupidity. Either some meaning exists and you have it or you search for it, or no meaning exists and how the hell can you still be so antagonized? It's nothing but low IQ stupidity parading about as high intellectualism.

>>17140808
You're missing the biological origin of our fear of death and desire for immortality. The book offers a solution, which is to short-circuit this drive through acknowledgement of our "vital lie" - it could potentially have great objective benefit to your life, however meaningless that life or objective measure may be

>>17137806
>Emil Cioran expresses this problem well in his short essay 'Faces of Decadence
barely and search results for this... why is it so obscure?

The Ernest Becker Foundation made a film detailing both the denial of death and TMT, if anyone is interested. Not as in-depth as the book, of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK4ztZ4tzQY

>>17137481
>the quality of human life changed and the world at large was changed for the better

[x] doubt

>>17137806
>>17140808
>Let me give you some life advice - any thought that leads you to both no solution(s) to a problem and also despair isn't one worth investigating, and you should never waste your time thinking about them. At a certain point, it's nothing more than self-harm.
see pic related... interesting connection

how the fuck do I cope after reading this

>>17141127
consciously

>>17141006
From what the image shows, it looks like it's a chapter contained in the book 'A Short History of Decay'

>>17141123
>>17140808
>>17137806
Realistically, what is the solution to the catch-22 of self-awareness?

It's like a lobster trap, or suddenly seeing a subliminal message in your favorite painting. There's no going back and no going forward. You're just stuck until you either kys or do enough drugs to make yourself brain damaged and incapable of introspection.

>>17141275
oh, excellent. I'm going to read it. This is some of the most readable philosophy I've come across, even if he goes off the rails towards the end it was really interesting

>>17138085
Pain experienced in the name of love is justified, made almost beautiful.
Pain experienced as a result of random chance is all the more agonizing for it.

>>17137481
>the quality of human life changed and the world at large was changed for the better
The former is true, the latter is undeniably false. The world at large is far worse off now than 500,000 years ago.

>>17138931
>Egyptian cosmology
I fucking shiggy you diggy. Are you in middle school, or are you truly dumb enough to fall for platitudes like that as a grown man?

>>17141428
>be born randomly hideous by chance
>love a girl
>she doesn't love you back because you're ugly as fuck
>experience pain

Is this pain agonizing or beautiful? Tick tock, Mr. Bond.

>>17141376
1. acknowledge that our urge for meaning is to help us deal with that impossibility of true immortality
2. acknowledge that our urge for immortality is to help us deal with our fear of death
3. acknowledge that our fear of death is pure biological programming

If it is all biological programming, you may consciously choose something "meaningful" and satiate the desire. Do not think of it as a catch-22. Think of it like sex with a condom. Our bodies drive us to fuck and reproduce. We put off a condom and the body is tricked. We know consciously that we will not make a baby, and the body does not care. We must compartmentalize our minds in the same way. Place a condom on your life lie/causa sui/vital lie, then you are free of its destructive power (remember the thesis that these lies are the causes of all human conflict). The quest for immortality through fame is an obvious example of a life lie that can easily ruin you

>>17137481
I don’t listen to Jews.

>>17141450
In what regards?

>>17141478
>We must compartmentalize our minds in the same way.

Non-compartmentalized minds cannot become compartmentalized. You're either compartmentalized to begin with, and thus face no issues, or you are non-compartmentalized and hopelessly stuck.

Saying "just compartmentalize" is the life-coach equivalent of "just be yourself bro" and then posting pictures of Nietzsche (or Kierkegaard if you've had sex before).

>>17141755
>Non-compartmentalized minds cannot become compartmentalized.
citation needed. surely the part of you brain that makes your heart beat is compartmentalized. surely your love for you family does not cross your mind during sex with your lover. everyone can compartmentalize.

>>17140737
but still, that's your main thesis boi
>guys I know this stuff is like a white lie, but if it made society progress, maybe it's true?
and don't insult me, this is an aristocratic board, act like it

>>17137686
I haven't read this, but if one considers
truth =/= fact
And if there is something more important than "fact" that underlies for all human progress, it's a considerable proposition.

Ultimately though I agree with you. Many times throughout history there has been concepts regarding as indisputable fact, and did shape the world, but was not true. (Greek & Roman myth comes to mind first)

>>17140808
>Lies are lies and truth are truth.
Yes.
>There's no reason to conflate the two simply because both have power.
Yes there is.
>Lies don't become truth just because they get results, they are still lies.
I never said that telling lies were the same as telling the truth, I just said that they can both do harm and good equally. You are basically admitting that you have poor reading comprehension.
>The realization you need to have here is that truth is not the only source of power in the world and never will be.
That’s what I said.
>Let me give you some life advice - any thought that leads you to both no solution(s) to a problem and also despair isn't one worth investigating, and you should never waste your time thinking about them. At a certain point, it's nothing more than self-harm. If there's a point to it all, follow it and live your life with meaning.
How the fuck do you know that if I continue on this path I will fall into despair? By continuing to expand the civilization my ancestors helped build for my descendants, I am finding meaning to my life.
>Regardless, stop wallowing in a glorified Victim Olympics. Don't join the pseudo-intellectuals pontificating endlessly about reason that never bother to get the fuck past the asking of questions to bother to provide an answer or simply accept that life exists without some gifted higher purpose from some transcendent function.
The only ones engaging in glorified Victim Olympics are hedonistic atheists who try to justify their attempts to degenerate everything around them, thus eliminating all of the progress my ancestors had made and ruining it for future generations.
>Like, I don't understand this kind of audacious stupidity. Either some meaning exists and you have it or you search for it, or no meaning exists and how the hell can you still be so antagonized? It's nothing but low IQ stupidity parading about as high intellectualism.
You don’t understand because you probably don’t contribute to anything that is greater than yourself. Living for others and discovering new things that benefit humanity makes life worth living you brainlet.

>>17141461
>a movie created with intelligent agency to teach a moral lesson
How did you think this was going to go for you