/lit/ - Literature

no

>>17042200
Sculpture should be above paintings.
Also I can't image how shitty your local theater is if you put it below cinema

Literature, poetry
Music, opera
Painting, sculpture
Theatre
Cinema, television, anime
Video games, Comic books, Webcomics (idk what's that, but let's say some niche furry comics),
Western cartoons

>>17042200
No, poetry is one of the lowest forms of art.

>>17042200
No. Music should be at the top. You can't hear something like Bach and not realise this.

>>17042236
I can

>>17042200
Music, because you don't find it in nature and if it has lyrics it also counts as poetry.

>>17042200
>Poetry
A dead art form these days. It was popular particularly in the 1800s until the radio was commonplace.
>Literature
It's up there
>Painting
Down below sculpture like one anon said, modern art ruins painting
>Music
Modernity ruins this, but at one time it was certainly top 3.
>Opera
Top 3
>Cinema
Shit
>Theater
Shit
>Television
Shit
>Comic books
Shit
>Anime
Double shit
>Western Cartoons
Triple shit
>Video Games
90% of the time shit, though there's a diamond in the rough somewhere
>Webcomics
Shit.

Theather (is poetry with music, includes opera and plays).
Music (includes poetry)
Poetry (includes scripture)
Sculpting (more than just statues, includes painting).
Painting.

Music at the top and videogames aren't art, they're games.

>>17042200
Using the ones given, this is the actual order, from highest form of art at the top to lowest on the bottom:
Music
Painting
Literature
Sculpture
Anime
Theater (non-musicals)
Opera
Cinema (non-anime)
Television (non-anime)
Video Games
Western Cartoons
Poetry
Webcomics
Comic books (western capeshit stuff, not manga)

Music
Cinema
Sculpture
Painting
Literature
Theater
Poetry

the rest aren’t fine arts.
also, it’s stupid to rank artforms. it really just comes down to personal inclination. there are masterpieces of every form, but 99% of works of art are not masterpieces, and i’d argue thaf 90%+ of art is mediocre to bad.
>t. interdisciplinary artist

If we're talking about future potential as a medium, I would put video games at the very top, since interactivity is something no other artform can do.
I'd also bump up anime at least to the level of cinema, and put poetry near the bottom.

>>17042200
I actually think video games first person perspective gives them a lot of artistic potential. I've seen a few games that are very thought-provoking and beautiful. My personal ranking:

Literature
Poetry
Vidya
Animation in general (has a lot of creative potential but absolutely shit at capitalizing on it so far)
Cinema/Television
Comics (similar situation to animation)
Theatre
Opera
Painting/Music
Sculpture
This is based upon how much flexibility is allowed within each art.

>>17042285
If we're talking about future potential, anime, video games, and music are clearly all #1 and everything else is down.
The reason, of course, is because in the future we will all literally be uploaded into anime video game simulations forever.

>>17042285
I honestly wouldn’t be sad if you died, nor do I see a moral issue with killing you.

>>17042298
based
>>17042285
if you don’t 41% soon, i’ll gladly assist you

>>17042293
In terms of actual artistic product, as opposed to potential:
Literature
Theatre
Music/Sculpture
Cinema
Painting
Opera
Power gap
Television
Anime
Comic Books
Video games
Western Cartoons
Webcomics

Videogames are not art

Video games are not an art. Their only purpose is to make the player stop thinking and feeling and just immerse them into the meaningless shit going on in the game. Their express purpose is to turn off your mind and put you in a semi-conscious state so you can not worry about life. Art on the other hand confronts you with thoughts and emotions and challenges you with questions about life.

>>17042200
i love literature, but paintings are much more emotional. words are great but theres a limit to what we can convey with whats provided (unless you pull a joyce).

>>17042324
> theres a limit to what we can convey with whats provided (unless you pull a joyce)
so there's a limit, but there's not?

>>17042200
Poetry is verbal, the question is whether a verbal art is the highest art and by how much.
If poetry encapsulates literature, that is it can do literature and more, then that's a proper placement (I assume yes).

The rest are more material and poetry can be read aloud and even be read in a manner that is more "musical".

I think utilitarianly I've never heard of a sculpture or music piece inspire dramatic historical change. Closest I've seen is Dallas inspire that revolution in the eastern curtain but that wasn't fundamentally the movie and still it was spread by mouth so I'd still consider that more verbal which poetry encapsulates best.

>>17042265
I don’t want to imagine how bad you must smell

>>17042324
A painting is completely static, it has to tell you everything in one frame, thus it can’t have the depth of a book.

>>17042298
Lol, based

>>17042200
is it a tier list or what, if not, what's missing?

>>17042200
>no ballet
Fuck off with your midwit pseud list.

>>17042265
>modern art ruins painting
wait to show your ignorance, paintings are irrelevant in contemporary art.

>>17042244
Filtered

>>17042285
Neck yourself my man

Literature > Visual Art ~ Music > Theater >>>>> Film
Everything else is irrelevant

even the best of these are mere shadows compared to nature, the art of God

>>17042285
Kill yourself, brother

As a person studying animation, I'm curious why you guys hate the medium so much.

>>17042298

>>17042430
It's a few levels in the cave. It's not bad but the ability for expression in animation is just low. It's at best a less material copy of a material copy of an abstract object. It's limited by its derivations.

>>17042430
Outside of the odd 90s anime, are there really any genuinely good works of animation?

>>17042452
Oops, meant for >>17042285

>>17042457
There's some good French animated films. Gandahar is pretty great.

>>17042200
No. Music is obviously more artificial than poetry because it is beyond words.

>>17042430
Animation is potentially good but there hasnt been much great animated art. Probably because to create an animation you need to invest a lot of money which will be expected to produce a return and so the product will have to be commercialised

>>17042475
The potentialness of it is limited. This is a crude example but of causative ability, would you rather be in a loving relationship, or be having sex, or simply watching either? It has low material causation even as a material truth.

>>17042200
Art is an abstract of the human mind, the artist communicates what is in their head using their desired medium. How well they can communicate exactly what is in their mind, and how intuitive it is to the audience is how I have ranked the following.

Judging based this the order is:
Music (sound, universal)
Painting (visual, universal)

Literature (descriptive of senses, not innately audio or visual - limited by language)
Poetry (limited by audience's understanding/interpretation, limited by language)

Sculpture (limited by being 3 dimensional, multiple view points, artist vision is either (a) not clear, or (b) not significant (like if they're sculpting something that already exists like a random person it's usually not really that impressive))

Cinema (sound, visual, collaborative effort usually dilutes artistic vision)
Theater (limited by performers interpretation of script, I'd put the script with literature and the actual performance/theater here)
Opera (limited by language, just a cultural thing, it can be impressive but it's antiquated)

Television (commercialized)
Video Games (no)
Western Cartoons (commercialized)
Webcomics (usually shit)
Comic Books (less accessible than web, commercialized)

and I don't watch anime so unranked.

>>17042473
Music can’t speak to the intellect, only the senses. It can’t tell a complex story like a novel or poem can. It can’t deliver philosophical insight. I’m not saying I think music is bad, in fact I’ve cried before listening to Bach, but it’s definitley inferior to poetry and literature.

>>17042200
No. Obviously theater, cinema, video games/computer art would be #1 as it can fit all other forms inside it.

>>17042259
>can’t find it nature
Nigga are deaf (or urban scum)

>>17042508
Not all forms are equal. Some forms are derivative of others otherwise the highest form of art would be linearly infinite and covering everything possible.

>>17042285
Nigger

>>17042472
Cool, I’ll check it out

>>17042200
No. It's almost the exact reverse.

>>17042200
Poetry, Literature, Music, Sculpture, Painting
Cinema
Theater, Opera
Television, Anime
Comic books, Western Cartoons, Video Games
Webcomics

>>17042285
Bet your parents are proud

>>17042265
>Cinema
>Shit
wtf?

Art is not defined by its vehicle but by the depth of its purpose(s).
Comparing apples and oranges is unbecoming, pretending that only certain media are commercialized is even worse,

>>17042200
Music is above painting, poetry is part of literature, but otherwise not bad. Video games above comics.
>>17042230
This works

>>17042282
>the rest aren’t fine arts.
Justify this claim.

>>17042285
Your dad either is absent or (justifiably) beats the shit out of you

>>17042200
Literature > Poetry. Poetry conveys no concrete information and its aesthetic value is limited and therefore it is inferior. Spiritualist brainlets will disagree: go read your Hindunigger texts and ascend from your basement already.

Anime > television. Television has become garbage due to it's popularity. Cinema occasionally remains above, but anime is still a more niche community and therefore more capable of producing art.

Opera > Music almost by definition.

>>17042457
Check out OTGW.

>>17042589
Poetry can convey concrete information. There is a lot of poetry which is prosaic. I don't see how you can separate the two except literature as a particular form of poetry.

>>17042200
No. Ranking artforms is retardation. This thread shows that no matter how many books you read, you won't become clever if you were born retarded. Also some statements ITT show complete lack of knowledge about artforms they try to speak of. Bunch of midwits and retards.

>>17042285
>video games at the very top

>>17042607
>yelled the sage prior to slamming the door, never to be seen again

>>17042589
Poetry is superior to literature in every way I have no clue what you mean by “it can’t convey concrete information” lmao it sounds like your verbal IQ is too low to understand poetry so you think it’s meaningless and conveys no “concrete information”.

>>17042605
I see poetry (the good kind) as a subset of literature. The epic, narrative poems and such are narrative and therefore more aptly a subset literature.
Poetry without narrative and concreteness i.e. the musings of Pessoa, aim to convey no concrete information and are therefore clearly not literature. This separate type of poetry is inferior to literature by this very reason.

Has any anime truly reached the artistic level of early Simpson's?
Just because you threw some kabbalic imagery into your anime doesn't make it art.

>>17042607
This. /lit/ is so stupid.

>>17042623
Thats what you spiritualist niggers say. If we cannot agree on what a poem objectively says (what vaguely objective information it intends to convey), then by definition there is no non-subjective value to the poem. Given that subjective value and catharsis gives me no external insight into anything it is of inferior pedagogic value to literature. You learn nothing other than about yourself from a poem.

Since I am objectively not worthwhile to investigate, and neither is the average consumer of poetry (this is (You)), the overall value of a good piece of literature supercedes poetry significantly.

>>17042370
I shower twice daily and take care of myself.
>>17042394
>Irrelevant in contemporary art
Hence why I said modern art ruins painting. I didn't say modern painting ruins painting you idiot
>>17042563
Yes. Cinema is shit. It's formulaic profit driven garbage. Sure, there are a few classic films, but that doesn't mean 99% of cinema isn't shit.

>>17042625
But prose is of a certain rhythm and rhyme no? What would make that not poetry?

>>17042200
>>17042208
>>17042230
>>17042236
>>17042265
>>17042272
>>17042274
>>17042282
>>17042315
>>17042320
>>17042321
>>17042408
>>17042489
>>17042555
>New bad old good
Like clockwork.

>>17042421
Only based post, disgusting over consumers who see there mediums as superior to others, humans only botch and nickname nature and consider it profound. Its all games, its all just simulations with patterns your recognise, the great artists in all mediums understand this, look from all art and you find the connection with nature.

>>17042489
Music is not universal, people need an education just in listening to it to under stand both complex classical and Avant Guard. Jazz and metal are not usually liked first listen. Painting is not so much but still a language, how many have to eye to see and interpret, how many have the language of memory and the base appreciation of nature.


Poetry is meant to stimulate awareness in the world. I read about morning then stare at mornings. I reckon it will have a massive comeback when our mind turns more climate focused.

>>17042671
I was judging from the current outputs.

>>17042661
You don't need people to agree on what art means to have it mean something. I'm sure Homer didn't have a 21st century meaning yet we can understand it in relation to modern events, in fact odyssey was interpreted so in Oh brother where art thou.

>>17042669
It would make it poetry insofar as those aspects dominate everything else in the novel. My point is precisely that they ought not. A good piece of literature is the synthesis of these poetic elements with the narrative element (as well as a few other stylistic elements).
I value the narrative or informational element above the stylistic element, and this is the position that is consistent with a rejection of postmodernism. There ought be more to a book than meaningless pretty ramblings. Therefore, I find literature superior.

>>17042689
>meaningless pretty ramblings
ngmi

>>17042265
>modernity ruins this
The mark of the brainlet. Gets you every time

>>17042683
You don't know of the current outputs, you have no idea what contemporary literature, art, or music look like

>>17042671
It's true.

>>17042689
Why can poetry not have a narrative aspect to it? Shouldn't really every bit of writing have a narrative to it? I think, if I can assume, you mean you dislike some poetry but I don't see literature as separate from poetry whatsoever.

>>17042685
This is true, but the subjective meaning we all derive isn't derived in isolation. I don't just cogito ergo sum my way into understanding the art I consume. The value we derive from art ultimately depends to some degree on what the art intends to transmit. When we apply homer to the modern world, we suppose that there is some value to this application above others: it is superior to throwing our arms up and going "well I don't know how to explain modernity fuck you". This being the case, the value of applying art to something, which you mention, is essentially congruent with its ability to make a point. This is why we don't (or shouldn't) apply broad platitudes or non-narrative poetry to anything.

When you draw your parallel, I might understand what you mean, whereas if I say "modernity parallels Pessoa's ramblings" this would confer less information to you: you wouldn't know my point because Pessoa himself chose not to make any particular point.

>>17042689
>>17042736
This being said unless you can show some aspects in literature that are not in poetry.

>>17042200
Cinema
Video Games (potential to be top)
Opera
Music
Literature
Painting
Poetry
Sculpture
Television
Anime| Western Cartoons |Comic books |Webcomics

Where does photography fit in?

>>17042666
>Yes. Cinema is shit. It's formulaic profit driven garbage. Sure, there are a few classic films, but that doesn't mean 99% of cinema isn't shit.
How to know someone is American

Dear Listbitch,
>Fuck you.

>>17042769
>Video Games (potential to be top)
Nigger alert

>>17042666
>Yes. Cinema is shit. It's formulaic profit driven garbage. Sure, there are a few classic films, but that doesn't mean 99% of cinema isn't shit.
The same goes for any artform.

>>17042739
It depends on the subject but everything has a truth. In terms of charity, a schizophrenic still has things to say and which must be worked through on their level hence counseling or even psychiatrically in prescribing medication.
In this we can still have your example be meaningful particularly depending on your engagement with the other person. In this we wouldn't refer to the author or either person in the conversation. What "modernity parallels Pessoa's ramblings" may mean would necessarily be placed in an abstract framework. This could mean a swearword in a random culture that they're both in and none of the participants nor author could be wise to place the significance of those words.
There are other examples like it being a call-sign to rob one participant but that's not as broad as the prior example showing meaning is external or author, reader or participants.

>>17042736
>>17042742
Well both terms are ultimately somewhat vague and ambiguous. Generally, though, literature is separated from poetry by stylistic convention. If we examine this stylistic convention, it tends to (but need not necessarily) facilitate certain elements of either literature or poetry. The rhythm of poetry, for example, has an effect on the vocabulary that goes into a poem, and this vocabulary in turn defines poetry (to a small degree).

Evaluating these consequences of style might be the most coherent way of determining which artform is superior. I think that literature is ultimately defined by the predominance of the narrative element, which arises from these stylistic constraints. Epic poems exist, and I would class those epic poems where the narrative element predominates as literature, whereas those where the stylistic element does as poems (because this is what the division in style would suggest).

I like the narrative element because it transmits external information, as opposed to encouraging catharsis.

>>17042739
>>17042801
First I tried to clarify truth as objective and necessary, second was truth is in a framework and not decided by the first schizophrenia example otherwise he could imagine himself not schizophrenic. Third was limited version of second.

>>17042793
Try some VR stories. It's like if a movie made you feel like you were actually there.

>>17042801
This is true, but then you must consider the averages. On average, literature is going to convey more meaning.

Moreover, I think meaning is a concept that metaphysically relies on intention. A schizo's ramblngs are generally not "meaningful" in the broad sense (though they may be meaningful to you) because there is no intention to them. The call sign is meaningful, but it has intention.

>>17042285
>>17042769
You two are both absolutely niggerlicious

>>17042810
I do agree I just think calling literature the absence of some forms in poetry doesn't designate itself a different category.

>>17042841
ok boomer

>>17042200
Music should be at the top. Poetry should be beneath cinema.

>>17042831
I don't think intention defines meaning. I can intend to do the right thing but it still be wrong but it doesn't change the effect or any way to fix it.

>>17042200
Poetry/Literature
Cinema
Music
Sculpture
Painting
Theatre
Television

>>17042671
It reaches a certain point when new things take the form of pure shit.
>>17042714
>mark of the brainlet
>if you don't like modern things you're a brainlet
Listen here, collectivist, it is no doubt that things are currently shittier than they have been in a long while. We are in a moral and creative decline. It will recover. There is hope in the future.
>>17042780
Considering America essentially controls and influences the world more than any other country, it is the mainstream and will stay that way for a long while. I do watch European films, but they're not as good as you wish they would.
>>17042795
>The same goes for any artform
Cinema is easier to create that masses will buy because of established content. The sculptor, the poet, the painter, the composer - their passion is for pennies. Cinema is just a way for the rich to get richer. Even webcomic people and animators make pennies by comparison.

>>17042285
>interactivity is something no other artform can do.
yeah and that's exactly the reason why it's inferior.
roughly according to the list, the higher something is, the more imagination you have to exercise for it to be enjoyable.
even in video games with a story, you could completely turn off your mind and not listen to what the characters are saying to you and remember who is who and still complete the game. that's an extreme case, but it is possible.
if you actively play a video game and give it the same attention that the book requires, then it's a viable art form, but it still shows you a lot of rigid things, that you then don't have to imagine.
the more art leaves to the user, the better that art is. and the artistically perfect book will always be richer than artistically perfect game

>>17042842
Well mine is not a negative definition, I mentioned the narrative element, which I consider crucial. There may be others, and we might define literature more concretely as the incidence of several of these traits.
I think the predominance of style over narrative similarly defines poetry.

>>17042883
But narrative is a style. I feel I can speak of literature as degrees of traits of poetry in all instances to include the negation of some traits.

>>17042853
It does not define meaning, but intention does seem to be a prerequisite for "objective" meaning. In the sense that a sequence of numbers is only truly a code if created by another rational agent.

>>17042861
>Considering America essentially controls and influences the world more than any other country, it is the mainstream and will stay that way for a long while. I do watch European films, but they're not as good as you wish they would.
The fact that you say this shows you don't watch European films.

>>17042896
I don't think it even speaks of the object except correlatively. Causatively a code is a code whether it's given by a human or nature (in a crude example say a series of rocks hitting safe's lock yo set a combination or a needle or key in a haystack for instance).

>>17042893
Narrative might well be a style, and so it is the presence of this style and its relative importance can be the distinction between literature and poetry.

>>17042200
Video games have the highest potential for art, but the medium has been completely wasted.

>>17042920
Well, that is not generally how we conceive of "meaning". That's why we don't attribute "meaning" to natural landscapes whereas we do to paintings of landscapes. At least this is my impression.

1. Anecdote
2. Racist limerick
3. Anonymous shitpost

>>17042940
No, they're not even art, just games.

>>17042931
Okay that's fine but at that point why split it if they consist of the same variables in different degrees?

>>17042941
That's 100% how I consider meaning. In terms of existence-preservation or perhaps truth in a more orthodox position. We can't discover things if they don't have meaning and what we discover has a level of meaning outside individual perception.

>>17042916
What, you think that European films are some "incredible" pieces of work that trump everything else by comparison? Even Chinese cinema(particularly in the mid-late 80s) is better. I used to particularly enjoy British and French cinema, but it's certainly not something that is superb quality you European snob.

>elder god practically magic tier
music
>heights of human expression divinely inspired tier
poetry
architecture
>slightly muted nevertheless based tier
sculpture
painting
>high-mid tier
short stories and novels
dance
theatre and opera
cinema

>>17042948
>>17042200
1. Visual Novels featuring metaphysical themes in combination with hardcore pornography.
2. The drawings and ramblings of schizophrenics
3. Images of ugly people posted online for humorous effect (no accompanying text)
4. Images of ugly people posted online for humorous effect (with accompanying text)
5. Anonymous shitpost

Power Gap

6. Poetry
7. Literature
...
And so on

>>17042966
>Chinese cinema(particularly in the mid-late 80s)
oh no no no

>>17042965
>Okay that's fine but at that point why split it if they consist of the same variables in different degrees?
Well so does everything right. Sand is soaked with water whereas the ocean contains sand, this does not mean we can't tell the sea from the land.
I'm happy that we agree as to meaning though.

>>17042948
>Anecdote
My niece listens to music of today, and even my grandmother(87) has always put up with and even enjoyed modern music up until the past couple years. She can't even discern the melody, because she said it all sounds the same. It does.
>Racist limerick
The niggers have taken over media
Leading us to pedophilia
Bleak is the future
Full is your pooper
Behind the scenes are the Ophidia
>Anonymous shitpost
Fuck niggers and kikes. Your opinion is shit.

>>17043009
I'm a monist so I believe everything has existence and the degradation of existence is where we can judge them but only in how they correctly conform to the level of degradation of existence it's on.
I think the meaning point works as a great example. You can choose what you want to accept as meaning but it degrades to an existential truth and certainly not a sociological one much less a universal truth considering I was contradicting you.

>>17043035
Well I'm not a monist so let's not get into that, plus it seems tangential to me. I mean, if you accept that objective meaning can exist, then we can set aside the intention argument and say: well the superior form of art is that which will ultimately hold the most meaning. I contend that it is the very subjectivity of poetry that will necessarily relegate it to holding less objective meaning than literature, that's the point right. Now if you agree that subjective meaning isn't valuable because it degrades into objective meaning, then you should agree here that literature is thereby the superior art form.

This was my point all along. I don't give much of a hoot about subjective meaning, and since poetry is almost defined by this subjectivity, it ought be inferior.

>>17042861
>Listen here, collectivist, it is no doubt that things are currently shittier than they have been in a long while. We are in a moral and creative decline. It will recover. There is hope in the future.
There is nothing I wish more than for you to expand on this idea and be universally ridiculed. The last 150 years have been the most prolific, creatively advanced, psychologically and philosophically deep years humankind has ever experienced.
Modernist literature has reached peaks which are in nothing inferior to classics of the past, art became expression of free individual creativity instead of being subservient to religious and ideological bullshit (and it did this despite being repeatedly trampled over by the most abject ideologies on earth, left and right), painting reached unparalleled heights, and human beings fucking invented new art forms (cinema) that were never there before - all while you're there sitting in your own poop complaining that "muh old better than new". You know nothing of "new".
And all this without even starting with the undeniable material well-being YOU enjoy because of modernity (including this conversation we're having). It is useless to say that before modern age most people in here would have probably died in the first five years of their lives - so what precisely is the "steady decline" you are talking about? Decline from what? From having three people who were capable of reading to a vast majority of literate population? From having the possibility not only to live, but to freely express yourself to an extent no humans ever had before? Is it because you happened to see Queen's Gambit on netflix and saw how cringe it is? How about you engage with some actual modern stuff? Modernity is fucking full of beautiful art, smart ideas, creative endoavours never attempted before EVERYWHERE. Read more books, go to art exhibitions, watch some good movies, search for good music and fucking stop complaining about things you most likely know nothing about.
Being lonely and sad is not a justification for saying stupid shit, like "modernity bad". It's not paradise but no one with a brain and average historical knowledge would deny that the last 150 years were not the artistic, scientific, and material peak humanities has experienced according to all known records.

>>17043069
I don't think poetry is subjective any more than I do literature is or can be. I agree in that the art form of the highest value must have the most meaning. We differ in definition of meaning but at the very least we can identify literature that is meant to be very subjective (say pomo). To be able to critique both in your framework we need something that doesn't split poetry and literature in that sense or we'd have a bad prediction of them (where the most subjective literature is more objective than the most objective poetry, of which there are many).

>>17043104
CONSUMERISM=GOOD the post

>>17043104
This is Pinker garbage. You're not wrong about 150 years, but set the timeframe to 1970-present and you will see that we peaked in 1970.

>>17043121
Scientifically we probably peaked somewhere around the 1950s. Musically back around 1800. Architecturally literally 700 years ago. The novel's century was 1830-1930ish.

>>17043118
Well I don't propose a hard boundary, like "where the most subjective literature is more objective than the most objective poetry".

However, I think that literature on average is definitely more objective than poetry, and that's all we require to conclude that it's (generally) superior, which is what we sought to determine. We don't need to be autistic about the boundaries here, all that is required is that literature on average be more meaningful, since this is our metric.

Now literature is more objectively meaningful on average because of the general focus on narrative above other stylistic elements.

>>17043069
>>17043118
An example of objective poetry. This is meant to convey a material essence in the words. This isn't subjective even if it may be sociologically-relative as the language contends with the imagining of the material object. Granted there are other poems which are less materially-concerned.

>>17043104
Just because I think it's shit does not mean I don't use it or enjoy it. Cinema peaked in the 1930s and 1940s, which is the entirety of my point. Instead, you expand on things I have not said because you have some obscene disdain toward Americans I think. Do you not comprehend modern being the information age? There is decent work out there, there are good music and movies. However, what is considered popular and good is not that.

One of the wonders of the world is going down, and no one cares.

>>17043151
That is pretty good.

>>17043146
I guess we can agree up to that point. I still feel in that since the boundaries can't be drawn satisfyingly then that isn't a good framework in splitting them along that line.

>>17043144
You're not wrong but I refer to the materialist stuff that guy probably cares about, i.e. real wages and such.

>>17042671
KYS, you complete fucking idiot.
>>>/r/marvel
or whatever hole you crawled out off.
And, for the record, most of my favorite music is contemporary, and I wrote my fucking dissertation of contemporary poetry.

>>17043163
Stole it from an anon here. It opened my eyes to poetry as just free-form literature for me.

>>17043169
That's fair, I'm glad I could get my point across, this was a good discussion. I also agree that boundaries can't really be drawn properly by my metric, but I think that hoping for anything else is foolish. These things are inherently abstract and vague. We have to draw a line in the sand somewhere if we are to rank things like OP wants.

>>17042200
Hell no.

Anime should be with television and western cartoons. Webcomics should also be with comics.

By this, I do not mean that these are in pairs of quality (Not a big fan of anime), but that anime and cartoons are by default either television or cinema because it is animation. The same can be applied to webcomics.

Now, video games being bottom tier is based.

when people tells you that /lit/ is intelligent link them this thread; something funnier: /lit/ is well informed.

>>17043173
I think even real wages were better in the 50s and 60s than 70s though I'm not all that informed on the subject. For Americans anyway that was a golden era, I know it's fashionable to mock people pining for le 50s, but there is a reason people do so, it really was remarkably good for the average prole living there.

>>17043192
I appreciate the discussion too anon

>>17042200
>poetry
>Art
Just because your words have musicality doesnt make them better than prose. Unironically kill yourself in minecraft

>>17043198
It isn't really all that relevant whether we draw the line at the 50's or 70's, so I'm still on board with you, but I'm technically correct here.

>>17043213
>poetry
>musicality
Not all poetry is lyrical, but all lyrics are poetry. Insufferable faggot.

>>17043121
>modernity bad
>the last 50 years bad
So basically the bad period coincides precisely with the period which you have experience of? Wow... really makes you think.

>>17042200
Cinema
Everything else

>>17043247
This is statistically provable via happiness indices. Also, I'm closer to being 20 than I am to being 50 lol, wouldn't I make up stuff about everything declining past 2000 then?

well you could just make a video game that has a mozart soundtrack and the mona lisa in it, how do you top that

>>17043276
It wouldn't be a game then

>>17043216
Im being pedantic I guess but your graph shows things starting to go to shit in the early 70s

>>17042861
>>17042966
Lol. You have abysmal taste.

>>17043247
Deep in Oxfordshire, in 1352AD, atop a wooden crate stands a noble man. With a button nose and curly brown hair, his green eyes pierced the market square. His senses are heightened, for he must tell the people the truth of the suffering they face today.

The smell of feces, death, blood and guts mixed with mud and shattered cobblestone has been a normal smell for the past five years. Such a long time, it has almost been forgotten this square was once thriving.

He shouts, "Heareth me, people. These art the w'rst times we has't seen! i knoweth not if 't be true 'twill receiveth bett'r, but this is lacking valor!"

In the crowd, a strange looking man listened to what the noble had to say. He puts his bag of wheat back on his bosom to imitate the look of a female breast. His filthy dress that once belonged to a woman drapes over him like a burlap sack full of bricks. He says back to the noble, "So basically the lacking valor p'riod coincides precisely with the p'riod which thee has't exp'rience of? wow. very much maketh thee bethink!"

The noble stares back in bewilderment of this oblivious transvestite. He steps off the create, the feeling utter defeat and disgust overcomes him. No one else cared or wished to listen except for those who want to berate.

>>17043318
>You have abysmal taste
The fact I don't think European media is "great" means I have shit taste? Go eat your snails you French faggot.

>>17042200
>music that low
faggot

>>17043436
Get rid of the darkies and it wouldn't be.

>>17043379
Seething uncultured American. You shouldn't open your mouth about things you know nothing about.

Music is objectively the highest form of art.

>>17042200
"comic books" are only above anime if we're talking manga, capeshit is trash compared to manga

>>17043560
>Uncultured American
When the Europoor seethes over an American for just being American, you know Europe is in such bad shape. You just sit back and think about how you are "superior" to me while we drone strike another Afghani child and his goat wife to defend poppy fields. You must be English, French, or German. Or you wish you were one of the three. Most other countries know their place.

I've also probably been in more European countries than you have. I've been to the third world too. You wouldn't know culture if it whipped its dick out and slapped you in the face with it.

>>17043436
>>17043580
Music is so easy to make comparatively. It's harder to make a masterpiece in other mediums, that should at least nudge it down a bit I think.

>>17043595
how can you quantify how hard it is to make a masterpiece? just because you can put some dogshit together on garageband quite easily doesnt suddenly make the jump to making a masterpiece trivial

>>17043453
theyre literally the best musicians. dont let modern rap obscure that

>>17043650
Because of the high number of masterpieces in music and the low number of masterpieces in other media.

As a gamer I'd even go as far as to say there are no true masterpieces yet in gaming.

>>17043672
take percentages and it probably evens out. as for gaming, i would say portal 2 and ac2 but idk im no gamer

>>17042200
Cartoons and anime should be grouped together because they are both animations and besides, anime literally means animation in Japanese.
Also, you should replace "video games" with "walking simulators" because real video games aren't art.

>>17042200
Music is clearly the top (in average: considering only art music), but there are some books that are greater than music: e.g. Finnegans Wake

>>17043656
>theyre literally the best musicians.
They are not the best musicians. They're awful at their instruments. Have you not heard Paganini? Or for modern day, John Petrucci? Joe Satriani? What about Les Claypool? Buckethead? Or, for percussion, the Darkie's favorite: Buddy Rich. Gene Krupa. Mike Portnoy. Neil Peart.

There will never be a black musician as good as they are.

>>17043737
What about Dwarf Fortress though?

>>17042521
>muh birds
I'm sure you can't find poetry (not beauty, the craft of words) in nature.

>>17043737
oh and antichamber and everything (which aren't walking simulators)

>>17043737
>Also, you should replace "video games" with "walking simulators" because real video games aren't art.
This

>>17042200


1. POETRY IS LITERATURE.

2. COMICBOOKS, AND WEBCOMICS, CONSTITUTE A SINGLE TYPE.

3. ANIME, AND CARTOONS, CONSTITUTE A SINGLE TYPE.


THAT LIST IS BOTH: REDUNDANT, AND LACKING —WHY INCLUDE VIDEOGAMES, BUT NOT ORIGAMI, OR POTTERY, OR GOLDSMITHING, FOR EXAMPLE?—, THEREFORE THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE ORDER IS TRUE IS NULL.

>>17043764
Jimi Hendrix is best guitarist of all time, Sonny Boy is the best harmonica player of all time, Don Shirley is the best modern pianist since Liszt.
Just go easy on the racism, buddy

>>17043764
your taste is shit

>>17043764
For saxapohone? Kenny G

>>17042200
Arguing about what kind of art is best is a waste of time, but yes I do agree with this list

>>17043581
>"comic books" are only above anime if we're talking manga, capeshit is trash compared to manga
Comics would include the Franco-Dutch school, which is superior to Japanese Manga in every way.

>>17043792
one possible reason might be because there's more arthouse anime than arthouse cartoons (e.g. Mushi'shi, Haibane Renmei, Tatami Galaxy, Miyazaki's Auteur films, Perfect Blue, Belladona, Cat Soup, Night on the Galactic Railroad, Lain Experiments, Kino, Gankutsuou, Texhnozyle, Inaka Isha, Aru Tabibito no Nikki, etc etc...) vs cartoons (Le Planète Sauvage, Simpsons, Horse Bojack, some other adult swim, many short animated films that are not well known). And the reason to include webcomics is probably because of Homestuck. But well I'm not OP, so this is just my intuition about this.

>>17043811
>Jimi Hendrix
>Best guitarist
You're joking. Hendix is influential, sure. Not the best.
>Harmonica
To be fair I don't know enough about it to say who's the best.
>Don Shirley
>since Liszt
Jordan Rudess is pretty up there. However, all time goes to Mozart.
>Go easy on the racism
Do you forget where you are?
>>17043823
The people I mentioned are factually among the greatest in terms of talent and ability on their instruments. You don't have to enjoy their music.
>>17043836
>Saxophone
While Kenny G is up among the best, Ralph Carney is probably my favorite for some reason. Saw him live with Tom Waits

>>17042200
Poetry is lower than comics

>>17042200
Put Cinema below Anime and Television at the very bottom.

>>17042671
>old bad, new good
Like clockwork.

>>17043595
Why would that matter? Is it a list of which type of art is hardest to make?

>>17043933
why

>>17042200
Comparing genres vs comparing works. An Anime can be better than a book. Its genre doesn't make it superior.

Also
>Poetry on top

Kek

>>17042206
fpbp

>>17042200
>maximum levels of art
1. Steal from people
2. Catharticism
3. Semper I fuck the other guy.

There's no other level for humans and anything else is a cope.

>>17043586
The insecurity is leaking. Dumb plebeian. Lol at your utter seething.

>>17042200
Poetry > music > drama > prose > cinema >anime
Who cares about the rest?

>>17042200
>music
>5
holy shit this retarded

>>17042200
Comic books above anime. Kek

>>17042200
My hottest of takes:
>Poetry
Can be legitimate art but is also one of the easiest to read arbitrary bullshit into. It's "easy to do" but hard to do well.
>Literature
If not number one, then number two
>Painting
It's up there, but also can be easy to make, especially with abstract art (which isn't to say abstract art has no value at all)
>Sculpture
A little overrated. Seems to be more impressive than truly expressionist. It's a little too clinical.
>Music
Very hard to rate, because I can't put my finger on what exactly makes it good. It's surely the most subjective thing on here, because while I know there's a big difference in artistic merit between classical music and rap, I more often get a charge out of the latter. I consider this removed from other kinds of art.
>Opera
I don't know man, I can't sit through this. Maybe it's good but I can't appreciate it.
>Cinema
Plebs will seethe but this is up there with literature.
>Theater
Better than opera to me but nowhere near as good as cinema.
>Television
Has a ceiling quality almost as high as cinema, but can also obviously be much much worse. It's weirdly like poetry in that way.
>Comic books
Can't get better than the likes of Calvin and Hobbes, which is nice for what it is. Actual superhero tier comic books are garbage.
>Anime
Also fun but not high art.
>Western cartoons
See above, except typically worse.
>Video games
NOT ART except for those with cinematic and narrative qualities.
>Webcomics
If you read these, you're beyond saving.

I'm the only person being honest in this thread.

>>17045314
You should try some operas, here are a few popular classics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYUGVnfwDcE&vl=en
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OYtlGpApc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdjFBW-S3z0

>>17045359
But see, this is cinema now, not opera.

>>17045370
I suppose sort of, still very enjoyable imo if you get into it

>>17042244
Based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XRa-DDsfsc

>>17045387
I'll give it a try anon

>>17045403
Not him, but I made a thread for this purpose and was gone. This is one of the best opera singers I've ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-bAXm-A3Ls

Music ≈ Art ≈ Sculpture ≈ Architecture ≈ Literature ≈ Dreaming ≈ Hallucinating >
Theater = Opera = Cinema >
Stand Up = Poetry >
Western Animation = Video Games >
YouTube Videos = 4chan posts >>
(Anime = Manga) > Webcomics >>
c*mic "books" > y/a novels etc.

>>17042200
yea

>>17042200
Listicles should be at the very top.

>music, painting, opera, sculpture, literature, poetry
God tier. In no particular order.

>theater, cinema
Quite nice.

>television, Western cartoons, comic books
Fine.

anime, webcomics, video games
No.

>>17042200
Different ideas can be best expressed through different mediums of art. The Godfather works best as a film whereas The Sopranos worked better as a TV show. Maybe some artistic forms are inherently better then others, but it seems like a waste of time to try and list them.

>>17042285
>If we're talking about future potential as a medium, I would put video games at the very top, since interactivity is something no other artform can do.
Nobody gives a fuck about "muh potential", kid. Focus on the now and what video games represent culturally (decadence and shallow escapism).

>>17042298
hahaha based

>>17046710
How the fuck is anime "inherently" lower than television, western cartoons, or comic books?

>>17042387
Ballet is gay as fuck kys.

>>17042200
Architecture.

Literature

Carpentry/Sculpture

>>17042200
Music, sculpture and paiting are all superior to artforms constrained by language.

>Opera not in top 3
Fuck off, listen to this aria and judge whether Opera is the perfect combination of classical music, poetry, and and theater or not. If you do not feel utterly overwhelmed by the power of this aria you're a soulless bugman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXmF6h3Yd_A

>>17042206
This

It’s not that linear, it depends on the person and the work but it’s a question of spiritualization right? Which is most purely mental?

As a medium the video game has equal level or superior to the potential of the cinema, music is fully incorporated into opera and the rest and so forth.

You can debate and divide these a hundred different ways. Something like poetry and literature in general is the most purely intellectual of the arts but I’d argue we can even consider philosophy as a art form which has an even higher spiritualization than both poetry/prose literature, so something like theological/mystical/highly philosophical which is not trying to be poetry but instruct in philosophy would be the highest for this kind of criteria.

But honestly it really depends on the specific piece of art and the average poem, generic prose fiction, painting, sculpture, etc etc are all shit.

>>17042671
you will never be a woman

>>17047564
It's just a musical with an unusual singing style. I doubt it would be rated a top 3 art style by many.

Video games are, unfortunately, the highest form of art because the include every other art form within them.

>>17048008
Actually they’re the highest form of art because they are works of design and shouldn’t be evaluated as “art”, which is beneath design in every way.

>>17047510
I don't watch it so I don't know but there must be something wrong with it if the fanbase is so degenerate.

>>17042321
>Their only purpose is to make the player stop thinking and feeling and just immerse them into the meaningless shit going on in the game.
Can confirm. Unless it's a co-op game with a friend, I only play video games if I'm having an exceptionally terrible week and don't want to think about anything for a little while

>>17042200
Yeah, but it would be more intuitive if it were flipped so the highest forms were at the top. As it is it looks like a top ten list descending to the first.

>>17042200
Video Games
Everything outside of that is shit

>>17043586

the world would be so much better without americans in it

>>17043764

>buckethead

lmao thanks for the laugh

seethe racist

what about architecture?

Heee's the actual list, you pseuds. This is counting the possibilities if tje medium, not the amount if the high wuality works it has.

Literature, poetry
Music
Video Games
Painting
Cinema
Sculpture
Anime, western cartoons
Television
----------- power gap
Comic books
Theatre, opera
Webcomics

>inb4 seething operafags and theatretards
Know your place, brainlets

Architecture should be very high.

>>17042972
This is a great ranking. I love it.

Literature
Theater
Painting
Music
Opera
Cinema
Anime
Television
Video games
Comic books, web comics
Western animation (this isn't even art really)

>>17042200
None of these things is art.

>>17042682
>music is not universal, people need an education
no they dont, I've never learned an instrument or read theory and I like classical, more importantly, I lked it on the first listen.

>>17042200
Which order am I supposed to read this in to understand your shit take

>>17042206

It's for you

>>17042200
>cinema above theatre
... why? I will also say, that at least as the culture of the two mediums stand, and their products, the drop between theatre and cinema is a big one. I also do happen to value something intrinsic in theatre which cannot be encapsulated by cinema, but again, ignoring that theatre is still leagues above cinema.

The uniqueness of cinema as an artform as it stands alone is really quite little. You must really do, least for the time being however more, put cinema so much further down below theatre, so it is recognised as a lesser art to the traditional. And my instinctual feelings being, that it will never "supersede" theatre or become its equal, nor should ever be considered such.

>>17042200
No. Music is the highest of all art forms. There is NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING in all the world of art that even comes close to what Beethoven achieved in his music. Beethoven's music is as raw, powerful, expressive and communicative as it is humanly possible for artistic expression to be. Sistine Chapel? David? War and Peace? Hamlet? Critique of Pure Reason? Apology? Forget it. None of them hold a candle to Beethoven. Not a single one of them even come close. Beethoven is out of this world, completely. Beethoven is the greatest artist who ever lived.

>>17049914
This. I showed my friends Beethoven's Eroica on acid. They had never listened to classical music before, they knew nothing about it. They instantly liked it, and not only did they like it, they UNDERSTOOD it. The ONLY thing that music requires is an open ear, and if it is good enough, the rest will be self-evident.

>>17050094
>not so fast

>>17050128
>not so fast
On the contrary, most people play Beethoven too slowly.

>>17042200
Shitposting is unironically the highest level of art. Its so high that the brightest minds before us couldnt even comprehend it hardly can we.

>>17042321
T. Has never played Cyberpunk 2077 by CD Project Red

Western comics at the top
Anime at the bottom
Everything else in between

>>17042200
poetry
lit
cinema
music
painting
~everything else

>>17042200
look at all all these faggots that think vidya is better than most of list

>>17042200
youre such a faggot holy shit. What has the best possible taste?
Fruit
Bread
Garlic sauce
Breakfast
Sweets
Water
Elk meat

see how retarded you sound? Also many of your categories are intertwined into each other.

no one has mentioned yet but podcasting is the absolute lowest form of art

ITT: heres the mediums i dislike the popular ones the most, they are the worst medium therefore.
this has nothing to do with the "highest achievable form of art". Also that doesnt exist. Retarded measure by retards that love metacritic

>>17042200
video games belong at the top.
let go of your traditionalist mindset, accept that games are the peak of art.

>>17042200
Ballet and dancing in general should be in the list
Is this about potential of the medium or what material is available? because the order would change dramatically depending on that

>>17050453
youtube reaction videos imo

>>17042200
Art levels? Of course not.

>>17042671
>new bad old good
trendy weak perennial strong
matter of perspective, m8

>>17042200
Hermann Hesse is top tier then
Painter, poet, writer

>>17049263
You pompous Europeans think you're so high and mighty, yet you're fucking retarded and have no relevance to the world. I have traveled far and wide, been on archaeological digs in Greece and Israel. I've been blown up and shot at. You drink espresso and wine and have to think highly of yourself else you implode on your uselessness.
>>17049270
I take it you've never heard the man play, or know nothing about music.

>>17042200
Cinema and television are by and far some of the lowest forms of art, only beating vidya(although to be fair to vidya the faults in its artistic merit lies in the absurd amount of money involved, and the difficulty in finding what makes it an art form). Anime, Manga/Comics, and cartoons surpass it. And God knows why you'd put theater beneath film.
Also where the fuck is ballet?

>>17042200
I don't agree with anything that has something so retarded as "Maximum possible level of art" as it's title.

>>17050284
https://kashgar.com.au/blogs/history/the-bawdy-graffiti-of-pompeii-and-herculaneu
They might not be able to comprehend shitposting, but they sure knew how to do it.

>>17050886
>You drink espresso and wine and have to think highly of yourself

>implying this is not the best part of life

Someone seems jealous.

>>17050886
Buckethead is entry level trash-tier for impressionable guitar teens. Completely soulless music that he shits out on an industrial level. No thanks.

>>17050094
>"Beethoven is the greatest genius to ever live"
>implying all of your descriptions of Beethoven don't fit better on Wagner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s88hmJ_osjY

>>17050094
>music isn't grounded in any ontological truth, and therefore only a sense-maker, a meaningless feeling exciter, and therefore a lesser art
>poetry is the greatest art
How do you answer Heidegger?

>>17050960
Not really. I drink my bourbon and don't think much about you at all.
>>17050973
>Buckethead is entry level trash-tier for impressionable guitar teens
>soulless
Again, you've probably never really listened to him before. He shits out a lot of music, and most of it is great, the rest can be kind of weird. The man can play any style he wants and play it well. I don't know of many guitarists that are on the same level of skill he has.

>>17050978
Wagner is an excess of German autism. Beethoven is the perfect amount of German autism.

>>17051029
>Music … stands quite apart from all the [other arts]. In it we do not recognize the copy, the repetition, of any Idea of the inner nature of the world. Yet it is such a great and exceedingly fine art, its effect on man’s innermost nature is so powerful, and it is so completely and profoundly understood by him in his innermost being as an entirely universal language, whose distinctness surpasses even that of the world of perception itself, that in it we certainly have to look for more than that exercitium arithmeticae occultum nescientis se numerare animi [“an unconscious exercise in arithmetic in which the mind does not know it is counting”] which Leibniz took it to be… We must attribute to music a far more serious and profound significance that refers to the innermost being of the world and of our own self.
How do you answer Schopenhauer?

>>17043003
Consider the music of Shostakovich, creating art under an oppressive regime and harsh censorship can really aid in subtle expression, and I do throroughly enjoy the defiant sophistry of those underhanded jabs that do get past the institutions that exist specifically to eliminate them. Go and watch Yellow Earth right now, anon, and if you can't appreciate it for what it is, and only see commie propaganda, I know that you got filtered hard.

I'm a different anon btw and my ranking would be:
Music
Poetry
Literature
Sculpture (incl. architecture)
Painting
Theatre, Cinema

>>17051030
I had a guitar wankery phase like that once. Many people do in their teenage years. Usually you grow out of it.

>The man can play any style he wants and play it well
Yet anything he puts out is just derivative. He is not a pioneer and he does not create anything that would make him an interesting musician. Completely forgettable.

>>17042200
It's a stupid thought experiment but If you could only choose one you'd choose cinema as it can include all the others.

The world would still flourish if only sculpture and conversational story telling remained of the arts.

>>17042285
now get off the couch and go skate!

>>17042739
Pessoa's point is that if he can make the depressingly insignificant beautiful than so can you make your life beautiful.

>>17051030
Polyphia, Chon, even fucking Sungazer mog Bucketfag hard. I'd argue that the man has no quality control and just shits out anything he deems "eh, good enough", Besides, I doubt he ever even wants to be taken seriously, he's an ironic act at best. An anonimous jester with no voice but a guitar. Pleb tier art either way.

>>17051029
listening to heidegger on music is like listening to kant on ethics.

>>17051032
What exactly do you define as German autism?

>>17051041
Wagner was a composer and a Schopenhauerian you nonce, what are you on about?

>>17051165
That's a very good way of phrasing it.

>>17051184
>reddit spacing
Go back, tranny.

>>17051070
I'm 28, and when I listened to guitar wankery it was a John Petrucci/Dream Theater obsession. I also play guitar and a variety of other instruments. I would hardly call his work derivative, and certainly not forgettable. You can tell you're listening to Buckethead - his style is unique and rings out. Very noticeable. If he is close to imitating anyone, it's Paul Gilbert who is great in his own right.
>>17051155
>no quality control
Nothing wrong with lots of content, and he does have some bland pikes. He also has pikes that are awesome to listen to, and just fun. Why must you hate music, anon? Polyphia is a good band, I can atleast agree with that.

>>17050094
cringe

>>17051208
>Why must you hate music, anon?
I just disapprove of putting him on a pedestal where he (at least in my eyes) does not belong. He's amazing at what he does, but I would not call any of his work masterpieces. I did start playing guitar because of him. I did probably cry when I first heard Soothsayer for the first time back in 8th grade. But then again, I also did when I read the Little Prince.
>Nothing wrong with lots of content
I do think there is a problem there. Even apart from the inconvenience that so much output makes it more difficult to navigate the expansive library of content. Or that the listener tends to gravitate to the more accessible, more popular set of songs anyways. The main problem is that I just can't take it seriously. Of course, instrumental records may well omit the subtleties of language and thus the possibility of linguistic depth, but still, an album (I do consider Pikes albums) that took the guy like a week to arrange and record? I feel like I can't see that as high art, no matter how beautiful I may feel like they are, they fundamentally betray my concept of what a masterpiece is supposed to be. Through the Looking Garden was enjoyable, sure. But this same reason is the one I refuse to give Schubertfags a pass for. Quality shitposting, no matter how beautiful, is shitposting all the same. I must treat this issue as such otherwise my Jamie Joyce's efforts may have been for naught.

>>17042200
I don't know why anime and cartoons are listed seperately. They belong to the same medium.

>>17042394
>Thinks modern = contemporary

Holy fuck, m8

>>17042200
"The will to a system is a lack of integrity."

>>17042572
Videogames above television and anime (both vacuous). Everything else is right

>>17042206
extremely based

>>17042200
Generally agree but I'd put video games other than all other forms of entertainment, as many indie, independent and experimental video gaming projects indicate that video game could be a potentially valid medium of artistic expression which unfortunately is primarily realized as means to attain entertainment. I mean, just try playing fucking Fez and tell me it's not a legitimate piece of art.

>>17043989
Then just get a robot to make all art then

Obviously difficulty is part of it

>>17050886
>relevance to the world.
Most of the world lives in poverty, shits on the streets and has sex with animals and minors, not sure if we want to be relevant to that.

>>17042200
>>17042200
no

>>17042200
Music
Theatre/Opera (as a classical storytelling art form, before written works)
Poetry
Literature
Painting
Sculpture
------ Below this line are not art forms, but mere entertainment----------
Cinema
Television
Anime
Video Games
Cartoons
Webcomics

>>17042780
name one good movie

>>17053029
What kind of thought process made you reach the conclusion that moving images cannot be art?

>>17053041
>post a thing and i'll tell you it's shit

>>17053397
That 100% of the slides are shit on their own.

>>17053041
The 39 steps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvSZt3cUECE

>>17053433
That's like criticizing a single brushstroke

>>17042230
If you put Painting, sculpture above music, opera, you become a Platonist.
If you put Music, opera above Painting, sculpture, you become a Daoist.
If you put either above Literature, poetry, you become a pseud.

Pic rel puts OP on suicide watch

>>17053622
i dont get it

>>17042200
Webcomics faggs on suicide alert

>>17042321
You can say the same shit about cinema and theater

>>17042671
yes.

>>17053029
You theatretards and operafaggots are the worst and cringiest pseuds that I've seen on this board

>>17053433
There are movies where every frame is beautiful

>>17053676
You're the one on suicide watch, see:
>>17053622

>>17042200
Video games & Anime should be above theatre and cinema since they are productions of pure reason rather than the works of random chance and societal condition
Music has no content so it should be the lowest on the list

>>17053927
Holy shit, somebody get me the based department, they have to hear this

>>17053943
also webcomics & cartoons above theatre, cinema, opera, television etc.

>>17053959
Get the cringe department for this one

>>17050094
I paint and I agree that music is the highest form of art, provided it's not pop music (by that I also mean metal, rock, rap, etc.) simply because it cannot be sullied like visual arts can be. Music is truly absolute and universal.

>>17042200
>poetry as opposed to literature
>television as opposed to anime and western cartoons

>>17053967
Your artwork must suck to insult paintings so much. I consider paintings more universal than music, cunt.
I'm sick and tired of smug musicians and those who jerk off to it. Paintings > music.

>>17053967
>music cannot be sullied provided it's unsullied music

>>17042285
based, imagine actually reading anything in this day and age lol

>>17054009
>music cannot be sullied provided it's unsullied music
Eh I think you're right. It was a bad distinction and I take it back. I put pop music on a whole different level because it's often representational in themes, it is "about" something, like love or war, it tries to get out a "message", but on a second thought that makes no sense.
Still, what I am trying to say is that when you look at a painting you are filtering it through your preconceptions, the culture of your time, etc. but music is an abstract form of communication, it manages to bring out emotions without the intermediary of representation. Painters have claimed to be able to reach for this with non-representational art but it simply does not work without a massive push from artistic institutions and education. If anything the achievements of abstract art as compared to music only prove that music is truly the king of the arts, visual art simply falls short without the intermediary, which is ephemeral and fragile because it's worldly.
I think the absolute opposite as Heidegger >>17051029 the arts are sullied explicitly when they are grounded in ontological truths, because those truths are never pure but often imprecise if not clouded by the eyes of those who see. Music really speaks directly to the heart, and I find that people who chase meaningless feeling exciters usually look at art that is very representational like the saccharine or the pornographic.
>>17054002
>Your artwork must suck to insult paintings so much.
I love painting and sculpture, but if I had to choose one of the arts to communicate the range of beauty as perceived by humanity to a complete stranger to the world, like an alien, I would choose music.

>>17053631
it's a le epic racism meme

I hate opera

>>17054122
>you are filtering it through your preconceptions, the culture of your time
You do that with music too. People used to think thirds were dissonant.

>>17042636
This.
Why does every anime involving religion have to include the Sefirot somewhere. It's like an unspoken rule

>>17054225
I'm not sure if I would trust old commentary on that ad litteram since this commentary is usually loaded with stubborn tradition and affectation, like painting was in the same period. Conceding that music is itself warped by preconceptions, those preconceptions change much more slowly and the strictly cultural element plays a much smaller part than it does in visual arts. Art movements become passé or kitsch overnight, they come back, they die off, they're closely tied with politics and other things. The women are perfect one day, they're fat the next. The art is pornographic one day, it's brave and human the next. Music is certainly not completely bulletproof to all this because in the very end the listeners are still human. Of course you will get people who hate Bach or Beethoven or Mozart, as especially low IQ people dislike complex music (not opening the IQ can of worms but still), but it's much less because of strictly cultural aspects, this is why a classical composition will still touch people's hearts in a more or less unadulterated way over the centuries, while the Sistine Chapel will not, because people today look at it and think the women look like men, and do not feel the glory of God as people did when they walked under it at the time it was created.
As much as I love visual arts they are a fragile thing, and seeing their collapse under the weight of a predominantly visual-oriented culture has made me realize I was always enamored with a very lucky period in time where great art was created, and that art will probably not exist in the future. I think the ability to stand the test of time, in one way or the other, is a merit of its own, because time is the ultimate wall between one man and another.

>>17042200
Literature (no poetry)
Music
Vidya
Film
Who cares lol

>>17054325
Is this paragraphautist?

>>17054421
I'm not sure if I am who you think I am but I am very scared now

>>17054442
This faggot https://rbt.asia/mu/thread/85655410/#85660153

>>17054464
no I don't post on /mu/

>>17054494
>no
Good.
>I don't post on /mu/
Para has fucked off by now thank christ.

>>17043121
your taste is just dated, dummy. there's no conclusive argument that any boomer rock band is measurably better than any of the best current stuff. you just don't like art much as you think you do and you're cranky.

>>17043764
i love the acrobatics that you dummies perform trying to exclude john coletrane and company. mike portnoy is a hilarious pick.

also, real jazz drummers don't respect buddy rich. he's all flair and no real substance. ironically, he plays like what your caricature of a black musician probably is. he's a dumb, egotistical savant. the real choice is tony williams or ed blackwell, but i guess your ideology won't let you acknowledge that. you still have paul motian, but you're not smart enough to know about him, i guess.