/lit/ - Literature

Marx couldn't predict capitalism had so many survival mechanisms. Instead of collapsing and then ending what happens is that it collapses and then the government has to bail it out so it can collapse again a few decades later.

>>16996080
Stop with the spam, please.

>>16996095
"marx couldn't predict that people would be so innovative" his <80 IQ shows again

>>16996080
Glad more people are starting to use this jpg. One day my dream is not a single marx thread will ever reach page 10 before it is posted.

>>16996128
Which is where Lenin comes in and actually comes up with tactics to topple capitalism. But Marx did support working class revolutions, he spent a lot of his wife's and Engel's money funding an unsuccessful revolution in Belgium.

>>16996095
capitalism has never collapsed, various countries have implemented corrupt and idiotic monetary policies that cause depressions, and then those assholes get bailed out.

>>16996227
We're about to enter another depression so obviously the problem has not been solved.

>>16996239
No the problem has not been solved, it is just getting worse because criminals are in charge of every country's money supply.

>>16996244
This. There would be barely any crises if the money supply wasn't privately held.

>>16996227
>it wasn't REAL capitalism
come on now

>>16996266
It was capitalism, it was much healthier before they got their filthy hands on the printing press, but it was still capitalism. It did not ever collapse.

>>16996266
its not really relevant if it was real or not, a depression isn't the 'collapse of capitalism' lol. absolute fucking idiots i sweater god.

>>16996266
not really, you look at the nordic countries which are almost peak capitalist with social policies here and there. Sad to see they're women are getting raped by Muslims though.

>>16996080
It has collapsed several times. Only to be bought out on the back of the public. One time, it got so shitty they invented magic debt money called "credit cards" so their poor working class would buy their shitty product again.

>>16996095
If you actually read him he does predict the countertendencies that have sustained capitalism so far, he just didn’t know how strong they would be

>>16996314
>It has collapsed several times.
If it had "collapsed" it wouldn't exist today, dumbass.

>>16996314
This. It keeps collapsing and growing each time!

This time, for sure, is the end. :)

>>16996080
Marxism==secular Christianity
Christianity==baptized Marxism

>>16996327
>whats a depression

Lel. Its too EZ. Where are the politcally educated people now that lit has been over run by dogmatic idiots. There used to be nuanced discussion with depth.

>>16996362
A depression isn't a collapse. It's clear the discussion is talking about full collapse of capitalism, presumably into proletarian revolution. Learn 2 read

>>16996080
>Dude capitalism will collapse any day now just trust me
He never said that capitalism will collapse any day. In any case, it is collapsing, right now. But i guess it is ironic that when the even finally arrives, nobody notice it.

>>16996401
Why do you think it's collapsing, because the government is forcing everyone not to work due to the meme virus?

>>16996327
A mode of production life isn't a human life. It has centuries of life and inertia. Feudalism for example took centuries to completely disappear, and you still had feudalism in the end of the 19th century in Russia or Japan.
Capitalism collapse isn't a process which happens in 6 months, but a few decades. And again, it has already began. It began in 2008, and in 2020, Capital told us: "i cannot continue, i have to stop a few months".

>>16996415
Causality reversal.

>>16996080
That Austrian painter maybe had a point though

>>16996432
Thanks for explaining, it would have been quite annoying if you had said something vague and ambiguous

>>16996390
A depression isnt a collapse! Ha. Go back, its a failure, and it happens due to internal mechanisms. Marx was right. If thevred scare, the complicit media, and the corrupt state hadn't fostered disunity and demonized workers movements there would've been a revolution. Why does your type view everything so narrowly. Debate is about learning and bettering your own worldview you infant.

>>16996443
>it still exists but it totally collapsed
>i-if the meanies had just let us do a coup it would be socialist now
Ok anon

>>16996437
The virus is not the cause of the lockdown, but the consequence. Overproduction has to be destroyed, as well as market saturation. The primary necessity is to destroy overproduction, in order to restart capital accumulation. Of course, to achieve this result, a story has to be made, like always.

>>16996080
Marx hate is so cringe. It's almost always pseuds who haven't read his work

>>16996443
>bro they shouldve just let us revolt
So this is the power of revolutionaries...

>>16996443
I already know all your arguments, I've argued with you guys and read your books a hundred times before.

>>16996455
>>16996486
Disingenous faggots or poor comprehension. Probably both. Remain in darkness if you so choose. Zoomer libs.

>>16996476
>Overproduction has to be destroyed, as well as market saturation.
No they don't, you act like capitalism is one guy sitting atop the economy twirling his mustache, you realize they compete with each other?

>>16996494
Name one way you're advancing the revolution, big guy :)

>>16996483
What's with this quote again? "You fear what you don't understand".

>>16996494
I love it how you guys call everyone who disagrees with you disingenuous or bad faith or whatever. You are so bad at arguing it is comical

>>16996496
You realize that the same shareholders own the competition? The situation we are in now is not a competitive flourishing market. Its about 100 blokes twirling their mustaches and preventing competition.

>>16996546
Who are these shareholders that own the world?

>>16996533
I'm bad at argueing, I was replying to two dead end non-arguments that signaled my victory. You don't know much of anything, luckily, realizing that is the first step to escaping your utter ignorance. You're welcome.

people wont like it but much of what he predicted exists now. of course its not in pre-tech language and affects. of course its cool to be the brave prole when you pretend youre not part of the petite bourg that has a standard of living better than 70 percent of the planet.

>>16996556
Your own argument was that a depression is actually a collapse, and that capitalism should just allow socialist revolution or it's...idk unfair or something, I have no idea what your point was.

>>16996569
So it was poor comprehension after all. Great. The Great Depresion caused global capitalism to collapse. This isn't debatable. It happened. Yes, capitalism is still here, but it was bailed out everywhere by adopting socialist practices and war time production. The workers MAY have achieved class solidarity had propaganda against them bot been so effective. There are many factors as to why revolutions do and don't occur. You stupidly claim that I believe the state didn't "allow" a revolution. This is disingenous as I said no such thing. Just fuck off if you don't know what you're talking about. You don't btw.

>>16996593
>it collapsed and wouldve stayed collapsed unless socialism was adopted which of course saved capitalism

>>16996629
Do you not understand history at all? The New Deal saved capitalism. Look it up. America came dangerously close to a full on revolution. Some historians even believe FDRs election to be an actual revolution due to pressure applied to him by the working class. Why do you insist on being so dumb?

>>16996671
Who are these historians that believe that, anon?
>the new deal saved capitalism
It worsened the recovery, silly commie :3

>>16996080
not a marxist but everything in screencap sounds pretty based to me

>>16996593
The great depression only happened because of the f*d*r*l r*s*rv*
in any case not a collapse lel

>>16996699
Sinclair Lewis for one very vocal about it.
Communists held the biggest labor strike in californias history in northern California and in Southern California there was an Anarchist movement gaining momentum. Also, in the south there was Huey Long pushing for Fascism. In Germany the great depression fueled the rise of Hitler. This is extremely revolutionary action that we see all across the board if we're honest.
>It worsened the recovery, silly commie
First I'm not a communist. Second, that claim is extremely heavily debated and never holds to serious scrutiny. Basically only ideologically paralyzed fools and corporate economists believe that shit.

>>16996726
Federal Reserve? Oh so based. Oh so redpilled. There were many many factors leading to The Great Depression, one of the main ones was business as usual, Wall Street mismanagement just like every other recession.

>>16996761
and the main one was corruptly shifting wealth by devaluing the currency

>>16996714
I know. Based. I wanna get piss drunk and pawn my pants in. Then punch some monocle wearing fuck.

>>16996095
>survival mechanisms
Yeah it's called napalm and targeted assassinations.

>>16996791
Prove it. I say that ironically, becauss the most politically and economically educated men of our time still debate the fact. No doubt, the fed had a role. The stock market crash was huge as well. As I said there were many factors. All of which are intrinsic to our economic system and continuously reoccur.

>>16996080

It'll always be an endless source of amusement to me to think of the countless hours marxists have wasted reading theory and crying about false consciousness, use value and exploitation. Losers one and all.

There is no capitalism. Faggots think the 'capitalism' model that marx was fighting in the fucking 1800s is anything like what we have right now? It's all so tiresome. Everyday you faggots argue marx vs. capitalism like neckbeards arguing who shot first. It doesn't matter, and hasn't mattered since 2000. Marx, kropotkin, Bakunin, these voices are irrelevent in the modern landscape of economics. Even Adam Smith or the Austrian school are dead. Nothing Marx or Smith wrote is applicable to whats happening in the Bond market, with international currency scams, with money printing, with bailouts. Not even close. it's like playing baseball with a tennis racket to use these outdated outlooks on economics today.

All there is now is MMT. Every country in the world, to slightly different extents. MMT of China varies from MMT of the US but they are at core neither capitalist nor communist, MMT does not fit on this outdated axis brainlets have played fantasy football with for decades. I bring up China because it's the same thing. All centralized control of economics ends in MMT. Whether it's maoist China devolving into MMT China, or federal capitalist USA devolving into MMT USA. None of your outdated "philosophies" apply anymore.

There has yet to be a proper rebuttal/answer/solution to MMT. It won't come for a long time either. Decentralized money supply (i.e. just cryptocurrency) isn't there yet but is probably the only emerging one so far. Whatever Marx is to capitalism, there will be a new one for MMT.

>>16996888
No bro arguing with people on 4chan is praxis

>>16996812
>targeted assassinations.
as opposed to what other kind, nigger?

>>16996184
Gotta love those thread killing images

>>16996483
every instance of communist thought that i've encountered has been nonsensical and retarded. are you saying that reading 2000 pages of Marx's schizo ramblings and descriptions of outdated machinery will change that?

i havent read marx i just claim that i have because it makes me sound woke and adds a lil spice to my hot takes

>>16997108
Use the world alienation a lit, talk about how capitalism alienated people from their labor and that alienation makes them alienated from themselves in their free time. People love that one

>>16996128
marx couldn't predict anything at all

Antifragility and the self-replicating nature of capital destroyed Marx's theory of labor value.

>>16996330
Nah, liberation theology thought this and it failed.

>>16996080
This picture really should have mentioned anybody who wishes to visit his grave have to pay a fee

>>16998785
Why?

>>16996080
It collapses all the damn time.
This time the numbers are staggering but it’s all so stupid, I’m sure they’ll find a way to make people believe it can work up until the extinction event.
The point now is to bring it down and replace it with something that works.

https://youtu.be/14zbZvXogoM

>>16996184
Dare to dream, Chud

>>16996552
Let me brainstorm very hard.... That's it. They are... Jews? We must kill them, and replace them with gentiles shareholders. Then everything will be fine.

>>16996951
Marx in Grundrisse details the monetary theory. In any case, you are wrong, the funamentals of Capitalism in Marx's era were the same as they are today. The global structure hasn't changed, and the key components of Marx's theory still apply today.

>>16999357
can you name the shareholders

>>16998888
Tranny

>>16999440
That's stupid, there are thousands of people who own the means of production in the world.
About the fed if that's what you means, it's Rothschild, Rockefeller, Schiff, Warburg, Morgan.But they are just Capitalists disguised as jews. The costume they have doesn't really matter. What matter is the social relationship, which is the same whether the Capitalist wear a cross, a kippah, or a djellaba. Only the stupid focus on appearances.

>>16998881
tfw capitalistic collapse is still better than communism "working" lmao

>>16999461
I want you to name them so I can actually see specifically how they own everything and conspire, rather than competing. Rockefeller was not a Jew, neither was Morgan.

>>16996327
okay, so the only possible condition for collapse is for it to be completely eradicated from the earth? Okay, let's try doing that, and see if it comes back, to test if it's possible to collapse capitalism, and solve this entire argument.

>>16999662
For example the Soviet Union collapsed, it no longer exists

>>16999711
and they collapsed because they became capitalist. Basically the entire history of post-Kruschev Soviet Union was a shoddy consumerist society and a regime change happened because people wanted western products like Pizza Hut. Do you think that a flag changing means that the people of the nation just magically transmutate overnight? They were capitalists.

Capitalism is the wage relation, people have to sell their labour for a fixed cost. Communism is a social relation, people exist on a system of implicit social credit, and work to keep their abstract social relationship's credit account in the black, or else they get kicked out of the society for freeloading (anti-social, go to gulag).

In Stalinist Russia, people existed under the sign of the wage relation, but only because they believed they were going to achieve a world where communism was possible, thanks to sufficiently developed means of production (automation). With Stalin's death, this was, in general, forgotten. He was too much of a crank, no one really believed in Marxist social analysis anymore. They became I Fucking Love Space and Science libs that worked for wages and bought products and tuned into the TV at night for the violence of mass media.

Capitalism is what causes things to collapse. Socialist societies always become capitalist first, then they experience a radical break. Socialists don't just "do socialism" until everything fucking blows up in their face or something, which is exactly what capialism is doing right now.

>>16999828
>and they collapsed because they became capitalist.
doesnt make very much sense, since they are still capitalist. Their version of socialism, collapsed, capitalism has not.

>>16999884
What happened in 2008 and the great depression? Capitalism collapsed and socialism bailed it out using tax dollars

>>16999897
Nobody stopped being capitalist in 2008, bailing out banks is not socialism.

>>16999897
Socialism isn't government doing things or paying for things. Socialism is government displacing the private sector.

>>16996080
150 years isn't really a long time though is it? how long did feudalism last again?

>>16999908
Bailing out banks is socialism just for the rich

>>16999946
Well the government did displace the private sector by bailing them out with loans

>>16999951
Feudalism was based

marx was right about all his criticisms of capitalism but he was dead fucking wrong on all of his solutions. fucking deadbeat should have spent less time thinking and more time working to actually learn how the world works

>>16999959
Marx was wrong

>>16999957
>Bailing out banks is socialism just for the rich
I would personally call it 'gigantic fraud, theft, and immiseration of the people'. Regardless the system remained capitalist, the majority of the economy is private despite the banks being allowed to steal whatever the fuck they want.

marx hate is cringe

>>16996239
>we're about to enter another depression right after capitalism was hindered and put on hold by government mandate for 3 of the past 9 months
Really makes you think

>>16999957
Private scetores still exist and compete with public ones. Even if private schools were subsidized by government it still isn't Socialism.

If the private sector wanted to operate its own libraries but can't because the government forced them out of that market space it would be Socialism, but since government is satisfying a need the private sector seems uninterested in satisfying it isn't Socialism. The fact being the loan was made to forgive the private sectors (much which they had no choice e to take) to assist the private sector is pretty capitalist to me.

>marx
yeah I'm more chad lenin

>>16999957
>Socialism definition: means of production are owned by all people (government) or by people working in the institution.

Credit unions don't satisfy this definition you nimrod.

>>16999884
You're saying that the conditions for the representation of collapse is to become capitalist.

Therefore, if you are judging capitalism to be a GOOD thing, then, for you, socialism should be a good thing, right? Why not try socialism, because, anything is worse than this absolutely retarded system we have now. It would at least involve a regime change where all of the current people in power would get (redacted). And if it goes back to capitalism, then for you, nothing was ever lost.

And if you judge that socialists becoming capitalists is a bad thing, then you're judging capitalism to be bad. And in that case, what are we even arguing over again? Capitalism is the wage relation, it is the quantized, reified, and simulated form of a social relation's abstract, non-quantified, and negotiable form of duty/debt. Socialism is just the truth of the social. There's nothing else to try at abolishing capitalism than socialism.

By either register, what meaning does pointing out the fact that socialist nations have become capitalist and collapsed have? Only that capitalism is bad, which means let's do socialism. Or capitalism is good, let's do socialism anyway, I'll probably be better off than living in a pod, eating bugs, and cooming my brains to death.

>>17000053
Why not just be capitalist in the first place without going through socialism, very bizarre argument you're putting forward here.

I pointed out that the Soviet Union collapsed because the guy asked for an example of an economic system actually collapsing.

>>17000072
because you get to (redacted) all of the people in power today. Are you a billionaire? Are you a well-connected powerful politician? Are you even a minor asset holder (>100 million)? Are you even a fucking land owner? Why would you not want to hit the rest button and (redacted) all of the rich people and gibs me dat for yourself? Are you a cuck? Do you kiss your master's feet everytime you see him?

>>17000094
I don't care about redacting the people in power, there are always people in power, socialist states have asshole elites too. If we could get rid of the insidious investment/central banks that would be nice. If commies had that as a major goal for their commie revolution I might consider being one.

>>16996080

Marx's fundamental error, what makes communism not able to function, is his theory of value, which is wrong. Marx thought value Is generated only by work, but that its only a part of the truth, value comes mainly from the law of demand and offer.

No value being generated only by work ---> No tendency of the rate of profit to fall ---> No functional communism

>>17000110
communism does not have banks because it does not have money. Money is a symbolic representation of debt, it is measured in units of money. In a communist society, people's debt is social. That means it is abstract, non-quantified, and only kept track of by a revisable and negotiable intersubjective feeling of whether or not this person is doing their duty/paying their debts to/doing what they can for society, otherwise they're deemed anti-social and ejected. Obviously you need a system like that because you can't have freeloaders and criminals, but it doesn't need to be quantified, contractual, and kept in a book.
That is what a bank does. That is what communism's entire meaning is, a social relation that is not in units of money, and not kept in a book, but instead as a social relation between associated people.

So obviously in a communist society, there are no banks.

>>17000154
Yes in your ideal commie society, I'm talking about the stage where it resembles USSR or China. If that stage commits to eradicating ctrl banks and usury I'd prefer it to present capitalism.

>>17000110
Socialist states have people in power but they don't have all the money. You know what owning all capital does? What it does is that it gives you unprecedented power to finance a huge loan for whatever you want. Bill gates said he would have less power if he became president because it wouldn't let him use his wealth to do whatever he wants to the world

>embracing the false dichotomy god instead of realizing it was never about the means of production and/or distribution of labor value but rather a fully integrated systemization of biological control which stems since the dawn of time which will never be usurped

>>17000162
Who controls the money in a socialist state if not the party? The US president has no power at all, of course Gates wouldn't want to be him. Stalin had a whole lot of power.

>>17000149
The tendency of the rate of profit to fall is just Marx explaining a contradiction in capitalist logic. It has nothing to do with whether or not communism can function. And the rate of profit has fallen, capitalists just print money on credit and the value of companies only goes up on pure speculation now. Don't you think that just fucking printing money and not actually doing anything with it might be cause to believe that system is reaching a terminus?

>>17000171
what? are you just reifying the present by saying that everything in biology leads to capitalism because what we have right now is capitalism? There was obviously a pre-capitalist time, how can you possibly have a wage relation and private property laws without the invention of money, language, or law? It's not like monkeys have laws written down in books, or money values for whatever resources they have, and symbolic representations of money to trade these things with? So if there was a pre-capitalist time, why can't there be a post-capitalist one?

>>17000213
>are you just reifying the present
Rather, I’m deifying the upward urge of consciousness presented through domination in the material dimension. We’re fucked.

>>16996080
It will "collapse" i.e. be adapted into something new eventually. Economic and political systems are devised by people, for people, and people evolve over time, ergo so must these systems if those maintaining them wish to keep them running. Marxists' desires are incoherent and inconsistent though, so it's extremely doubtful that the systems will ever be adapted into whatever they want them to be adapted for.

>>16996080
>USA suffocating in more and more depth as years pass by
>Haha, that stupid Marx did not know shit!
Sure thing, bro.

>>17000179
Yeah but stalin never had wealth.
Like Jerome Powell, the money only passed through stalins hands.

>>17000281
USA is "suffocating" for several reasons, which ones did Marx predict?

>>17000288
>Yeah but stalin never had wealth.
They controlled the entire money supply of an empire, I don't care whether they were buying private jets or not, it's completely irrelevant.

>>16999466
Imagine believing the CIA
Imagine believing Stalin
Read a book, kid.

>>16996080
Well Marx is wrong for 2 reasons:
1. He perceives progress and social organisation on a linear scale. For him, once socialism/ communism is achieved, he cannot go back. Its a dumb ahistorical view that is inherited from Hegel.
2. He doesnt realise that capitalism can effectively compromise where other ideologies can’t.

>>16996080
Capitalism doesn't collapse. Civilization does. It's just taking a little bit too long, that's all.

>>16996095
true capitalism hasn't been tried, bro

>>17000816
>Imagine believing in Stalin
This is true. Stalin was not real.

>>16996483
If by cringe you mean "you guys are being mean" then yes, failed idealogists would often gets bullied

>>17001844
I was part of the committee that brainstormed him actually, if you guys are curious